Israel-Hamas war thread

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

11 hours ago, txhorns said:

How can anyone argue in good faith that the citizens of Gaza do not support Hamas when we have reports of civilians beating children and returning escaped hostages to Hamas?  Add to it their history of fucking up every country they have been harbored in and consistently starting shit with Israel for decades.  At this point the Palestinians are just assholes.  That still doesn’t justify indiscriminately killing civilians, though I doubt that the IDF has done that.  I think the civilian death numbers are very highly inflated and that in cases where the IDF does kill civilians it it because of them being collateral damage to the Hamas targets.
 

Hopefully the IDF eradicates Hamas and can hand the Gaza Strip over to the UN to deal with.

We keep saying "eliminate Hamas" but if the Palestinian people support Hamas as much as we're saying, is there really a way to eliminate Hamas without Genocide?  Won't something else that has a different name, but the same beliefs just pop up in it's place?

Edited November 29, 2023 by JesusSweatDuck

[Parliament 14247]

19 hours ago, Viper said:

Some more coming out. The children are unsurprisingly traumatized

 

 

 

Those kids are gonna grow into voting/fighing adults who REALLY hate Palestinians.  Smart move, Hamas.  Develop that next generation.

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

 

[52-80 19147]

19 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Here again to point out that there is nothing reassuring about the Foreign Affairs polling data. Over thirty percent of Palestinians respond that they most identify with either Hamas or its more extreme cousin Palestinian Islamic Jihad and that is utterly horrifying.  We need only to write “thirty percent of Americans respond they they most identify with the Ku Klux Klan or the New National Democratic Socialist Party” to contextualize how stupid it is to cite these figures as “modest support.” 

That is in no way analogous. Atleast try to Steelman the thing. 

The respondees probably dont have much of a choice in their answers.

Hamas rose out of a 2-party conflict. There hasnt been elections in almost 2 decades. Supposedly, they shot and killed their “own people” trying to flee the territories. 

With that in mind, what do you think people in the Gaza strip (where they undemocratically wrestled control) would answer if asked publicly for affiliation?

How do you equate that to a hypothetical American support of a hyper-fringe extremist sect when they’re free and clear to support the popular parties. 

Further, if you read the actual source of that graphic (Arab Barometer Wave), **overwhelmingly** peoples priorities were on economic well-being, education, health care; and they showed strong preference for democratic systems. They also shared low (and declining) trust in the govt/public institutions. 

Not unlike America, its economics that truly drive their (the citizens’) politics, not military activities/policies.

In summary, an interpretation of the result is that it merely represents party prevalence — that the 2 highest answers reflect the 2 current parties — but does not imply 30% endorsement of terrorism. (any more than you can claim the US popular vote means 20% endorse the most loony/extreme idea from each party).

The 10% support for P.I.J. is much more obvious because they explicit call for total destruction of Israel. But given how much of the IL-PL conflict negatively and materially affected their lives, 10% is not a surprise at all. 

[52-80 19147]

the Performative aspect of american politics never cease to amaze. 
 

could you imagine, in the states of israel and palestine, the council of generals sitting in their war rooms, rife with tension, in eager anticipation of whether……

….the city of Oakland formally endorse or condemn their actions?

 

[Viper 12104]

33 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

the Performative aspect of american politics never cease to amaze. 
 

could you imagine, in the states of israel and palestine, the council of generals sitting in their war rooms, rife with tension, in eager anticipation of whether……

….the city of Oakland formally endorse or condemn their actions?

 

while that's true, it does at least tell us who the crazies are, and can pull some of the people on the fence into the middle when they see all the leaders are condemning this and not staying silent.

[956 Worldwide 34703]

30 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

That is in no way analogous. Atleast try to Steelman the thing. 

The respondees probably dont have much of a choice in their answers.

Hamas rose out of a 2-party conflict. There hasnt been elections in almost 2 decades. Supposedly, they shot and killed their “own people” trying to flee the territories. 

With that in mind, what do you think people in the Gaza strip (where they undemocratically wrestled control) would answer if asked publicly for affiliation?

How do you equate that to a hypothetical American support of a hyper-fringe extremist sect when they’re free and clear to support the popular parties. 

Further, if you read the actual source of that graphic (Arab Barometer Wave), **overwhelmingly** peoples priorities were on economic well-being, education, health care; and they showed strong preference for democratic systems. They also shared low (and declining) trust in the govt/public institutions. 

Not unlike America, its economics that truly drive their (the citizens’) politics, not military activities/policies.

In summary, an interpretation of the result is that it merely represents party prevalence — that the 2 highest answers reflect the 2 current parties — but does not imply 30% endorsement of terrorism. (any more than you can claim the US popular vote means 20% endorse the most loony/extreme idea from each party).

The 10% support for P.I.J. is much more obvious because they explicit call for total destruction of Israel. But given how much of the IL-PL conflict negatively and materially affected their lives, 10% is not a surprise at all. 

There’s a kernel of truth here in that people tend to back the parties in existence.  That said “no party” is certainly an option and it finishes barely above “Hamas’ more radical cousin.”  And my point stands that there appear to be no calls for anything resembling a tolerant and Liberal political movement. 
 

To your other points of “people can’t answer openly.” Ok, but in that case we just throw this shit out entirely and say we can’t really know anything.  If the data is corrupt (and it could be) then all we have is vibes. But we can’t cite the article and approvingly say “Hamas has modest support” and then argue “people can’t express their true feelings” when it’s pointed out that over a third is actually pretty gotdam high. Either these data are worth thinking about or debating or they aren’t. 
 

Economic concerns are a major aspect everywhere.  One thing that struck me while living in Pakistan and talking to real believers is this— Islamic fundamentalism is meant to work. The argument is that this system is not just meant to be righteous. It’s meant to bring a middle class, clean streets, clinics, and full supermarkets. It’s all part of the package. I don’t think you can discount the idea that Hamas and other extremists have sold their publics the promise of prosperity by way of jihad and rigorousness. 
 

And very finally, preference for democratic systems in no way a preference for tolerant and liberal democracy and in much of the world, it’s the exact opposite. The idea is that you elect people who terrorize or eliminate your enemies and not you. Often this is explicitly formulated as “true democracy” that is not thwarted by things like arbitrary human rights. Generic support for democracy is basically meaningless without definitions. 

[52-80 19147]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s a kernel of truth here in that people tend to back the parties in existence.  That said “no party” is certainly an option and it finishes barely above “Hamas’ more radical cousin.”  And my point stands that there appear to be no calls for anything resembling a tolerant and Liberal political movement. 
 

To your other points of “people can’t answer openly.” Ok, but in that case we just throw this shit out entirely and say we can’t really know anything.  If the data is corrupt (and it could be) then all we have is vibes. But we can’t cite the article and approvingly say “Hamas has modest support” and then argue “people can’t express their true feelings” when it’s pointed out that over a third is actually pretty gotdam high. Either these data are worth thinking about or debating or they aren’t. 
 

Economic concerns are a major aspect everywhere.  One thing that struck me while living in Pakistan and talking to real believers is this— Islamic fundamentalism is meant to work. The argument is that this system is not just meant to be righteous. It’s meant to bring a middle class, clean streets, clinics, and full supermarkets. It’s all part of the package. I don’t think you can discount the idea that Hamas and other extremists have sold their publics the promise of prosperity by way of jihad and rigorousness. 
 

And very finally, preference for democratic systems in no way a preference for tolerant and liberal democracy and in much of the world, it’s the exact opposite. The idea is that you elect people who terrorize or eliminate your enemies and not you. Often this is explicitly formulated as “true democracy” that is not thwarted by things like arbitrary human rights. Generic support for democracy is basically meaningless without definitions. 

Yeah i agree with most of that. And absolutely support for militaristic/terroristic action is significantly non-zero. Poor, uneducated, aggro, besieged is a combustible mix. 
Its sad all the stuff you mentioned is so long and deeply entwined itll never be unwound and resolved.  Of course, we already knew that conclusion last decade, and the one before that, and the one before that…

[Parliament 14247]

59 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

the Performative aspect of american politics never cease to amaze. 
 

could you imagine, in the states of israel and palestine, the council of generals sitting in their war rooms, rife with tension, in eager anticipation of whether……

….the city of Oakland formally endorse or condemn their actions?

 

No CR, but Oakland is the same kinda dump that the Gaza Strip is.  They are a kindred spirit.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Parliament

[Thetexashammer 1062]

I think the only answer (and it's no answer at all) is that you need standoff from Israel for the Gazans. The only real threat comes from their missiles, which they lob into Israel, aimed at civilian populations, on the reg. And they have been doing this for years. It's why all Israeli buildings are required to have bomb shelters.

Before 7 OCT, the only thing the Israeli's controlled was Gaza's border, they had no presence in Gaza at all. Any Israeli who went there would be killed. When I was in Israel last year, our tour guide told us as we were passing Jericho "If I try and go there, I will be killed for being Jewish".

So to protect Israel, you have to get the missiles out of range. Otherwise you are engaged in a constant low-level war. Unless you move the Gazans onto the Sinai or further into Egypt, there is no chance of an actual, stable peace. Just keep mowing the grass.

The hope that Gazans are going to stop hating jews is not realistic. I mean, if life handed me a beach, I would build a beach resort, but they chose poorly I guess.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Thetexashammer

[Welshy 907]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

No CR, but Oakland is the same kinda dump that the Gaza Strip is.  They are a kindred spirit.

Genius. 

[Anastasis 23463]

9 hours ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

 

Twitter is a cesspool of propaganda and disinfo. 

[Anastasis 23463]

4 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Just keep mowing the grass.

Cool cool rhetoric. 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Cool cool rhetoric. 

I only use official army doctrine.

[Anastasis 23463]

Just now, Thetexashammer said:

I only use official army doctrine.

Believe me, I understand. 

[Anastasis 23463]

The grass was too tall.

 

[Anastasis 23463]

At least there is something still stamped with made in the USA, even if it is just the lawn mower. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Anastasis

[956 Worldwide 34703]

Three people murdered at a bus stop and many more shot. The perps are allegedly two brothers who were at one time in Israeli custody. 
 

A good reminder of the non-proportionality of these “exchanges” as the Israeli hostages are innocent people who will go live their lives and the Palestinian prisoners are nearly all already in the terror infrastructure and many will go on to be terrorists again.  Literally exchanging Israeli lives now for lives later. 
 

 

[52-80 19147]

12 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

I think the only answer (and it's no answer at all) is that you need standoff from Israel for the Gazans.

There's a saying in Occitania -- I know its in Roma, probably in Occitania -- Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

[statsman 5453]

I don’t put too much stock in the Gaza polling. There is a range of political choices from Fatah to Hamas. They don’t get to hear stump speeches from Christian Democrats, or Tories, or Labour, or Reagan Republicans. Hamas has been in charge for over 15 years, and Hamas executes Palestinian dissidents. 
 
Yes, Hamas is truly awful. So were the Nazis (Godwin’s Law!), and they were elected and supported, and then suppressed dissidence lethally. Ten years after WWII, with mandated exposure to liberal democracy, the FRG was a pretty solid state citizen again. 
 
The trick is getting from there to here (Duh). It may be impossible for it to happen organically. You can say that they need a Jesus, a Ghandi, a MLK, but all three were killed while promoting non-violent social transformation. 
 
But, yeah, I’m not ready to write off the Palestinian people just because the group in charge are monsters. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by statsman

[DDD Dad 14326]

3 minutes ago, statsman said:

I don’t put too much stock in the Gaza polling. 

Username does not check out. 

[statsman 5453]

I think people can surprise you by how awful they can be and by how amazingly awesome they can be. Sometimes it’s the same people; the circumstances and how they are presented matter. 

[Born to Run 6569]

No CR, but Oakland is the same kinda dump that the Gaza Strip is.  They are a kindred spirit.

Fuck you; and you're an Ohio State guy lol

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

I don’t put too much stock in the Gaza polling. There is a range of political choices from Fatah to Hamas. They don’t get to hear stump speeches from Christian Democrats, or Tories, or Labour, or Reagan Republicans. Hamas has been in charge for over 15 years, and Hamas executes Palestinian dissidents. 
 
Yes, Hamas is truly awful. So were the Nazis (Godwin’s Law!), and they were elected and supported, and then suppressed dissidence lethally. Ten years after WWII, with mandated exposure to liberal democracy, the FRG was a pretty solid state citizen again. 
 
The trick is getting from there to here (Duh). It may be impossible for it to happen organically. You can say that they need a Jesus, a Ghandi, a MLK, but all three were killed while promoting non-violent social transformation. 
 
But, yeah, I’m not ready to write off the Palestinian people just because the group in charge are monsters. 

If Hamas has killed off all dissent doesn't that mean that there are just Hamas supporters left?

[statsman 5453]

44 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If Hamas has killed off all dissent doesn't that mean that there are just Hamas supporters left?

I actually believe that if a Palestinian were to clearly explain to his countrymen that an impassioned and logical appeal to the professed principles of the people of Israel, and the world, arguing their case, and eschewing violence, were the best approach, and that their leaders should be selected by the people, freely and regularly, a lot of Palestinians would have different views. 
 
The problem is that Hamas, or its like, would put a bullet in that guy’s head tout suite. 

[horn_of_the_morning 978]

Douglas Murray: Wartime Diary

https://www.thefp.com/p/douglas-murray-diary-israel-hamas-hostages-war

Spoiler

“What is life?” a child asks Oriana Fallaci at the beginning of her great 1969 book Nothing and Amen. As Fallaci wrote, the next morning she flew to the Vietnam War to find out.

I have thought about that question a lot in recent weeks, since arriving in Israel earlier this month to cover the war. I have seen plenty of wars before and they always throw up that question: “What is life?” To understand life you have to understand death, and to understand death you have to try to understand the worst thing that humans can do to each other: war.

Hamas’s attack on Israel on October 7 has left 1,200 dead. Nearly 240 hostages—children, women, grandmothers—were taken to Gaza. Over the past few days, about 81 hostages have been returned to their loved ones during the cease-fire.

I was at the children’s hospital in Tel Aviv when the first children and their parents were released. When the helicopters landed and the hostages got out, IDF soldiers blocked their faces with screens to protect them from the glare of the cameras. But I’d already been sent a single photo taken by the Arab press that showed some of the mothers with their children inside a bus when they were still in Gaza.

The terror on their faces. They looked as though they’d aged by decades.

But at this moment, there was joy. As the helicopters landed, traffic stopped, and people got out of their cars and broke into song. They clapped and their voices rang out as they welcomed back the hostages with songs like “Hevenu Shalom Alechem.” (“We brought you peace.”)

As it happened, 12 of the 13 returnees that night were from Kibbutz Nir Oz, the first place I visited on my trip to Israel. But for every returnee, you remember those still in Gaza. I thought especially of the grandsons of the man who showed me around the kibbutz during my visit. On the morning of October 7, the teenage boys were alone in the house. Their grandfather was on the phone with them trying to tell them how to hold the safe room door shut while avoiding being shot from the other side. The two boys struggled with a wound-up sheet, and held out a while, but they couldn’t fight back against two grown men, members of Hamas. They were taken into Gaza.

So was Kfir Bibas, a baby of ten months. So was his brother. So was their mother. Yesterday, Hamas said that they would not be released because they died in captivity. 

Who knows if Hamas killed them, as they killed so many others, or if they are lying in order to torture those waiting for their return. 

So the hostage releases are happening, but each day brings disappointment and hope. The process that has begun is a hell of its own. For almost two months, every billboard across the country has shown us the faces of the stolen. We have gotten to know them. Nobody pulls these posters down here. They are family, friends. 

Every returned hostage is a blessing. But what makes reporting on their release hard is that Hamas has strategically made sure that nearly all those freed still have a family member held captive inside Gaza. So almost every released hostage is compromised. 

Everybody knows that Hamas is eking out the deal—and reneging on it—in order to slow down the Israeli war plan. Possibly indefinitely. 

Rumors spill out everywhere. Some people believe that only half the hostages are still alive. But this fear is put to the back of people’s minds as they dream of everyone returning home.

 

 

Last week I went to the Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv to speak with the people still trying to identify bodies being brought in. Many of the bodies are so burned or destroyed that they arrive in a bag smaller than a normal body bag. Sometimes they are just bones; sometimes the remains are accompanied with a bit of a cell phone. All possible clues in order to give something back to the families to bury.

One of the reasons to see things with your own eyes is to steel yourself against those who refuse to believe what is happening. Holocaust denial about October 7 is happening in real time.

We went downstairs to the morgue where they showed me some of the bodies they were still trying to identify. The reek is terrible, as are the sights. But these dedicated professionals and volunteers go about their painful work with great dedication as well as dignity.

On one table was the body of what they could identify only as a young man. They had extracted a tooth to try to make an identification. This is a relatively lucky case. Next door were some of the trays of charred objects that used to be people. These trays were human jigsaw puzzles, the bodies too burned to remove DNA. On one tray, a skull had been pieced back together, and I asked the lead pathologist if this was surely not the skull of a child.

 

 

Pieces of bones arranged on a tray, collected samples of charred remains, recovered from the communities near the Gaza border. (Marcus Yam / Los Angeles Times)

“It could be,” he said, but it was also possible that it was the skull of a teenager and that the skull had simply shrunk in the intense flames that enveloped him or her when Hamas set their house on fire. 

Some of the sights made me nauseated. Others filled me with pity. A tray of almost nothing. A femur bone, perhaps. The remnants of a barbecue. Yet this was a man. Or a woman. Another bag comes in.

Early on I did an interview from the eerily empty town of Sderot. I had been there, and in its bomb shelters, before. But never did I—or any of the residents—imagine that Hamas would come down these streets in trucks firing RPGs and other heavy weaponry. This was a place that tried to hold out. 

Later, in the hospital in Tel Aviv, I met one brave young policeman who resisted for hours in his station that morning. He was shot in his arms and his legs, and a bullet had even grazed his scalp. He saw most of his comrades die. But he held out and was saved just before bleeding out. 

“What was it like that morning?” I asked him. 

“I saw hell,” he said, as he rocked himself back and forth.

 

 

Nir Oz, one of the kibbutzim in the south, suffered some of the greatest devastation on October 7. Over half of the community’s 400 residents were either murdered or kidnapped that day. 

This community, like many other kibbutzim, was populated by peaceniks, left-wingers, and people who actively tried to encourage coexistence with their Palestinian neighbors. 

Among the debris of their burned-out houses, you can still make out peace stickers. None of that made any difference to Hamas. Nor to the Palestinian workers who were given jobs in these places and ended up acting as scouts for Hamas, passing on information about the families so the terrorist group would know who to kill when they broke through the fence. The terrorists knew, by every single door, who would be home and when. They killed the head of security first and then moved on, house by house.

 

 

A house in Kibbutz Nir Oz that was destroyed in the October 7 attack. (Photo by Israel Fuguemann/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)

This is an ongoing crime scene, and so there are trails of blood still on the ground, which tell much of the story on their own. The room where a group of Thai agricultural workers were massacred is still caked in blood from wall to wall and ceiling to floor. I could only make out just a couple of bullet holes in that room. Which means the workers were hacked to death mostly by machete.

Nobody I have spoken to in Israel still believes they can live beside Hamas. The idea that a peaceful Palestinian state will be built in Gaza is dead. The idea that a state can be built in the West Bank under an authority that also celebrated the atrocities of October 7 is past life support. 

“I have been a left-winger all my life,” one man told me from his hospital bed. “I want nothing but potato fields from here to the Mediterranean.”

He told me his October 7 story. His wife and two children were hiding in a safe room in their house when Hamas set fire to the home. As smoke rose, terrorists found a window in the safe room and threw grenades through it. Then a Kalashnikov rifle appeared. His wife was killed by a grenade; two bullets pierced the chest of his 14-year-old son, a young surfer.

As his son bled out, he asked his father, “Will you bury me with my surfboard?” 

Days later, when authorities found the man in the hospital and asked if he wanted anything from his home, he gave a simple reply: “I want nothing from my house but my son’s surfboard.”

His son was buried with his surfboard.

 

 

Gaza itself is a blown-out wasteland. I was there within the first week, embedded with the IDF and traveling in Israeli vehicles through the border opening that the terrorists had broken through. As well as a feeling of trepidation, there is a sense of victory in going through that crossing. Hamas had come for the Israelis. And now the IDF was coming back for the people who’d done this.

In Gaza itself, anything can happen. The Israelis were still bombing the north, where I was, and up from the al-Shifa hospital I watched the streams of Palestinians making their journey south. It was a pitiful sight, and a reminder of what Hamas has wrought on the people under its control.

While I was there, the IDF found a Hamas tunnel and blew it up in front of me. The earth shook. But the earth shook a lot that day. Machine-gun fire kept breaking out, as well as the rockets and air strikes. People often ask what it’s like in a live conflict zone. The truth is, absolutely anything can happen. You just have to hope that it doesn’t.

At one point, right in the middle of Gaza, I spoke to a senior IDF commander and asked if he had been here before. 

“Yes,” he replied. 

“When were you last here?” I asked. 

“In 2005,” he said, “when I pulled family friends out of their houses. Now eighteen years later, here I am, back again.”

It is a reminder of the insolubility of the Gaza situation. Nobody has an answer to it. But why has this impossible problem been given to the Israelis to solve? Get someone else to resolve it. If the outside world thinks it knows what to do with a whole generation Hamas has indoctrinated into hate, then be my guest. Any takers? Any?

 

 

For now, the war is still on hold. The IDF is trained to go. But currently they sit around, like everyone, waiting and watching and wondering how long this suspension can continue. The pause strengthens Hamas and weakens Israel. Some people say that Israelis should be less sentimental. But when you see footage of a child running back into his father’s arms, you think again. And then you have to think of both these things at once.

 

 

Douglas Murray surveys the wreckage in Gaza. (Photo courtesy of the author)

The jihadists say they will win because they love death more than we love life. I think they are wrong. Israel will win precisely because they—we—love life. The Jews are ordered by God to “choose life” and even in the face of death, they do. The enemy can’t stop the great surge for life that comes up everywhere here in Israel, even in these days. The units I visit have unity and morale of a kind you would barely think possible. Because everybody now knows what the alternative to war is. The alternative is constant massacre.

Watching the sun go down tonight I think of Fallaci again, and when she returned from Vietnam, how she answered the little girl’s question, “What is life?”

What did Fallaci say to her? 

“Life is something you’ve got to fill up well, without wasting any time. Even if you break it by filling it too full.”

 

[Brian Fantana 6681]

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Cool cool rhetoric. 

Ambulance chasers

[Viper 12104]

A little bit more about how the hostage Mia ended up with the dog

 

there's also been a lot of disgusting tweets from hamas supporters (and russian paid influencers) claiming everything from the hostages were grateful to hamas for treating them so well to claiming they were in love with their hamas captors. This person is a former hostage and explains the dynamic. This is all beyond the fact that there are videos of the handovers where hamas can be heard ordering the hostages how to act to the cameras.

 

[statsman 5453]

The 10 month old hostage is dead. Hamas says the death was caused by IDF bombing. I suspect they (Hamas) just can’t help themselves when they have a chance to kill Jews. 

[statsman 5453]

I mean, they (Hamas) also killed the four year old brother and the mom, too. Damn. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by statsman

[Viper 12104]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

The 10 month old hostage is dead. Hamas says the death was caused by IDF bombing. I suspect they (Hamas) just can’t help themselves when they have a chance to kill Jews. 

maybe they killed them, but I'm not sure it matters and it's really the wrong thing to argue about. Whether they died because hamas shot/stabbed them or whether because of Israeli bombings, it's hamas' fault either way.

[956 Worldwide 34703]

5 hours ago, Viper said:

A little bit more about how the hostage Mia ended up with the dog

 

there's also been a lot of disgusting tweets from hamas supporters (and russian paid influencers) claiming everything from the hostages were grateful to hamas for treating them so well to claiming they were in love with their hamas captors. This person is a former hostage and explains the dynamic. This is all beyond the fact that there are videos of the handovers where hamas can be heard ordering the hostages how to act to the cameras.

 

The dog is worth more to the world than any individual wearing one of those green headbands. 

[Viper 12104]

Former special operations guy who watched the hamas' atrocity footage

 

 

It goes on for a bunch more posts  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1730361620075806725.html

 

[bolverk 29656]

Someone in the chain of Israeli military command really messed up.

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago
A blueprint reviewed by The Times laid out the attack in detail. Israeli officials dismissed it as aspirational and ignored specific warnings.

Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.

The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.

The translated document, which was reviewed by The New York Times, did not set a date for the attack, but described a methodical assault designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the Gaza Strip, take over Israeli cities and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters.

Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.

The plan also included details about the location and size of Israeli military forces, communication hubs and other sensitive information, raising questions about how Hamas gathered its intelligence and whether there were leaks inside the Israeli security establishment.

The document circulated widely among Israeli military and intelligence leaders, but experts determined that an attack of that scale and ambition was beyond Hamas’s capabilities, according to documents and officials. It is unclear whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or other top political leaders saw the document, as well.

Full article/no paywall: https://archive.is/7C0id

[956 Worldwide 34703]

8 minutes ago, Viper said:

Former special operations guy who watched the hamas' atrocity footage

 

 

It goes on for a bunch more posts  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1730361620075806725.html

 

Just read that thread. Sickening. 

[bolverk 29656]

It's fucking awful.

[Schulz2.0 28951]

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34703]

Ghouls. A painful death is too kind.

 

[956 Worldwide 34703]

Predicting that the “From the River to the Sea” crowd will mention only what happened at 7:03 and the kvetch about how they shouldn’t have to condemn Hamas. 

 

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Predicting that the “From the River to the Sea” crowd will mention only what happened at 7:03 and the kvetch about how they shouldn’t have to condemn Hamas. 

 

Hamas was just using this pause to regroup. I wonder how many of the remaining hostages are actually alive at this point 

[horn_of_the_morning 978]

Israel Plans to Kill Hamas Leaders Around the World After War
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-plans-to-kill-hamas-leaders-around-the-world-after-war-da88e6b9?mod=wknd_pos1

Spoiler

TEL AVIV—Israel’s intelligence services are preparing to kill Hamas leaders around the world when the nation’s war in the Gaza Strip winds down, setting the stage for a yearslong campaign to hunt down militants responsible for the Oct. 7 massacres, Israeli officials said.

With orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s top spy agencies are working on plans to hunt down Hamas leaders living in Lebanon, Turkey and Qatar, the small Gulf nation that has allowed the group to run a political office in Doha for a decade, the officials said.

The assassination campaign would be an extension of Israel’s decadeslong clandestine operations that have become the subject of both Hollywood legend and worldwide condemnation. Israeli assassins have hunted Palestinian militants in Beirut while dressed as women, and killed a Hamas leader in Dubai while disguised as tourists. Israel has used a car bomb to assassinate a Hezbollah leader in Syria and a remote-controlled rifle to kill a nuclear scientist in Iran, according to former Israeli officials.

For years, countries such as Qatar, Lebanon, Iran, Russia and Turkey have provided Hamas, a U.S.-designated terrorist group, with a measure of protection. And Israel has at times refrained from targeting the Palestinian militants to avoid creating diplomatic crises.

The new plans would mark a second chance for Netanyahu, who ordered a botched 1997 attempt to poison Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal in Jordan. The well-documented attempt instead led to the release of Hamas’s spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

To the consternation of some Israeli officials who want the latest plans to remain a mystery, Netanyahu telegraphed his intentions in a nationwide address on Nov. 22. 

“I have instructed the Mossad to act against the heads of Hamas wherever they are,” he said, referring to Israel’s foreign-intelligence service.

Members of Israel’s war cabinet, from left: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Benny Gantz. PHOTO: POOL/REUTERS

In the same address, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Hamas leaders are living on “borrowed time.”

“They are marked for death,” he said. “The struggle is worldwide, both the terrorists in Gaza and those who fly in expensive planes.”

While Israel typically tries to keep such efforts secret, the nation’s leaders have shown few reservations about revealing their intentions to hunt down everyone responsible for the Oct. 7 attack, just like they did to those responsible for the Palestinian terrorist attack that killed 11 Israeli athletes and coaches at the Munich Olympics in 1972. 

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

Can Hamas survive as an organization following the war with Israel? Join the conversation below.

Israel is already working to kill or capture Hamas leaders inside Gaza, the officials said. The question now for Israeli leaders isn’t about whether to try to kill Hamas leaders elsewhere in the world, but where—and how, the officials said.

The evolving plans are an extension of Israel’s war in Gaza and a reflection of its intentions to ensure that Hamas can never again pose a serious threat to Israel—just as the U.S. led a global coalition against Islamic State militants who set up a self-proclaimed caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria. As part of the effort, Israel is also looking at whether it could forcibly expel thousands of low-level Hamas fighters from Gaza as a way to shorten the war.

Targeted killings abroad can violate international law and run the risk of blowback from nations in which assassins operate without their permission. In practice, however, Israel and others have pursued targeted killings and weathered the repercussions.

Israel’s plans to target Hamas leaders began to take shape shortly after Oct. 7, when Hamas militants carried out a brazen cross-border attack that Israel said killed 1,200 people, most of them civilians. More than 200 others, including American and Europeans holding dual Israeli citizenship, were abducted and taken back to Gaza.

Khaled Meshaal, seen at his mother’s funeral in Jordan seven years ago, is an Israeli target. PHOTO: JAMAL NASRALLAH/EUROPEAN PRESSPHOTO AGENCY

Some Israeli officials wanted to launch an immediate campaign to kill Meshaal and other Hamas leaders living abroad, the officials said. The officials were especially incensed by a video of Meshaal, and other Hamas leaders, including its top political chief, Ismail Haniyeh, celebrating and praying at one of their offices while watching live news coverage of the Oct. 7 attacks.

Israel isn’t known to have carried out any targeted-killing operations in Qatar, and doing so after Oct. 7 could have torpedoed continuing efforts to negotiate the release of those held hostage, the officials said. Those concerns helped temper efforts to immediately embark on the assassination campaign, but the planning continues, they said.

Qatar has become the central hub for the hostage talks, with the head of the Mossad, David Barnea, meeting CIA chief William Burns in Doha earlier this week for more discussions. Doha has helped to secure the release of dozens of Israeli hostages held by Gaza militants in return for the release of Palestinians held in Israeli prisons. More than 130 hostages remain in Gaza, according to Israel’s account.

Netanyahu’s vow to hunt down Hamas leaders around the world has sparked a debate among former intelligence officials.

Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy. PHOTO: TONY BOCK / TORONTO STAR VIA GETTY IMAGES

Efraim Halevy, a former Mossad director, called it ill-advised. Killing Hamas leaders won’t eliminate the threat, he said. It has the potential to instead inflame the group’s followers and accelerate creation of even worse threats.

“Pursuing Hamas on a worldwide scale and trying to systematically remove all its leaders from this world is a desire to exact revenge, not a desire to achieve a strategic aim,” said Halevy, who called the plan “far-fetched.”

Amos Yadlin, a retired Israeli general who once led the military’s intelligence agency, said the campaign “is what justice demands.”

“All the Hamas leaders, all those who participated in the attack, who planned the attack, who ordered the attack, should be brought to justice or eliminated,” Yadlin said. “It’s the right policy.”

Perhaps no other nation has Israel’s experience in carrying out worldwide assassination campaigns. Since World War II, Israel has conducted more than 2,700 such operations, according to the book “Rise and Kill First,” by Israeli journalist Ronen Bergman.

Even before Israel was founded in 1948, Jewish militants killed European diplomats who were involved in the British administration of Mandatory Palestine. In the 1960s, Israeli spies used letter bombs to target former Nazi Germany scientists helping Egypt develop rockets. 

The campaigns have sometimes backfired. 

A demonstrator in Lebanon displays a photo of Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh, assassinated in Syria in 2008. PHOTO: MARWAN NAAMANI /GETTY IMAGES

In 1997, Netanyahu, then serving his first term as prime minister, ordered Israeli spies to kill Meshaal, a Hamas founder who was then living in Jordan. The Israeli team entered Jordan posing as Canadian tourists and attacked Meshaal outside the Hamas political office in Amman. One Israeli assassin sprayed a toxin into Meshaal’s ear but he was captured along with another member of the team before they could escape.

Meshaal fell into a coma, and Jordan threatened to terminate its peace treaty with Israel. Then-President Bill Clinton pressed Netanyahu to end the crisis by sending his Mossad chief to Amman with the antidote that saved Meshaal’s life. Israel then secured the freedom of its operatives in Jordan by agreeing to release Yassin, the Hamas spiritual leader, and 70 other Palestinian prisoners.

Meshaal later described the failed assassination attempt as a “turning point” that helped empower Hamas.

Israel continued its assassination campaign against Hamas for years.

In 2010, a team of Israeli operatives using forged European passports flew to Dubai, where they masqueraded as tourists while awaiting the arrival of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, a founder of the Hamas military wing who led the group’s efforts to buy weapons. 

Mourners including Khaled Meshaal, bottom left, marched with the coffin of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in 2010. PHOTO: BASSEM TELLAWI/ASSOCIATED PRESS

Surveillance video later captured members of the team, dressed as tennis players, following Mabhouh to his room, where the Israelis paralyzed and then suffocated the Hamas leader. While it initially appeared that Mabhouh had died of natural causes, Dubai officials eventually identified the hit team and accused Israel of the assassination. 

It took years to repair the damage to Israel’s relations with the United Arab Emirates.

It was the deadly Palestinian militant attack on Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics that cemented the nation’s embrace of covert assassinations as a tool of government policy. 

Palestinian gunmen with a group known as Black September took a group of Israeli athletes and coaches hostage in the Olympic Village, leading to a two-day standoff that ended with a failed rescue attempt by West German police. All 11 Israeli hostages were killed. 

In response, then-Prime Minister Golda Meir ordered Israeli spies to hunt down and kill all Palestinian militants involved in the attack. The covert campaign was dubbed Operation Wrath of God and became the subject of an Oscar-nominated 2005 Steven Spielberg movie.

Ehud Barak, pictured in 2012, took part in a campaign to hunt down Palestinian militants abroad in the 1970s. PHOTO: ISSEI KATO/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES

Israeli assassins spent 20 years hunting those linked to the Munich attack. They killed Palestinians in France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus and Lebanon. They used a remote-controlled bomb hidden inside a phone in France and used guns with silencers to kill targets in the streets of Rome.

Among those to take part in the yearslong effort was Ehud Barak, then a young Israeli commando who went on to become prime minister. In 1973, Barak, dressed as a woman, was part of a team that sneaked into Beirut to kill three Palestinian militants linked to the Munich attack. They killed all three in a matter of minutes. 

But Operation Wrath of God also led to one of Israel’s most embarrassing covert failures in 1973, when a team of Israeli operatives killed a Moroccan waiter in Norway who they had mistakenly identified as a Palestinian militant involved in the Munich attack. Six of the 15 Israeli operatives were arrested and five were sentenced to short prison terms for their roles in the killing.

Write to Dion Nissenbaum at dion.nissenbaum@wsj.com

 

 

[Parliament 14247]

Why wait?  And why didn't they kill these guys years ago?

[FartingMonk 3606]

4 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Why wait?  And why didn't they kill these guys years ago?

because Israel got soft.

[bolverk 29656]

1 hour ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Hamas was just using this pause to regroup. I wonder how many of the remaining hostages are actually alive at this point 

We knew the ceasefire would end eventually, and it doesn't change the fact that Israel was always going to continue to go after them. The only other thing I can say is that at least some of the hostages got out alive, and some aid got to innocent civilians. So it was worth it for as long as it lasted.

[956 Worldwide 34703]

The creation and release of this video by Hamas yesterday is pretty illustrative of where they are.  Specifically designed to create rage and anger in Israeli society combined with the decision to stop releasing hostages and start shooting rockets.  They are trying to re-escalate and prompt a massive Israeli response.  They must feel like they’ve regrouped sufficiently and that Israel will take the PR hit for going back on the offensive.

 

 

[statsman 5453]

Yes, this Hamas activity is not about fighting Zionism. It is about deriving satisfaction from torturing and killing Jews. 

[TKthunder2 4985]

6 hours ago, horn_of_the_morning said:

Israel Plans to Kill Hamas Leaders Around the World After War
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-plans-to-kill-hamas-leaders-around-the-world-after-war-da88e6b9?mod=wknd_pos1

  Reveal hidden contents

TEL AVIV—Israel’s intelligence services are preparing to kill Hamas leaders around the world when the nation’s war in the Gaza Strip winds down, setting the stage for a yearslong campaign to hunt down militants responsible for the Oct. 7 massacres, Israeli officials said.

With orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s top spy agencies are working on plans to hunt down Hamas leaders living in Lebanon, Turkey and Qatar, the small Gulf nation that has allowed the group to run a political office in Doha for a decade, the officials said.

The assassination campaign would be an extension of Israel’s decadeslong clandestine operations that have become the subject of both Hollywood legend and worldwide condemnation. Israeli assassins have hunted Palestinian militants in Beirut while dressed as women, and killed a Hamas leader in Dubai while disguised as tourists. Israel has used a car bomb to assassinate a Hezbollah leader in Syria and a remote-controlled rifle to kill a nuclear scientist in Iran, according to former Israeli officials.

For years, countries such as Qatar, Lebanon, Iran, Russia and Turkey have provided Hamas, a U.S.-designated terrorist group, with a measure of protection. And Israel has at times refrained from targeting the Palestinian militants to avoid creating diplomatic crises.

The new plans would mark a second chance for Netanyahu, who ordered a botched 1997 attempt to poison Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal in Jordan. The well-documented attempt instead led to the release of Hamas’s spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

To the consternation of some Israeli officials who want the latest plans to remain a mystery, Netanyahu telegraphed his intentions in a nationwide address on Nov. 22. 

“I have instructed the Mossad to act against the heads of Hamas wherever they are,” he said, referring to Israel’s foreign-intelligence service.

Members of Israel’s war cabinet, from left: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Benny Gantz. PHOTO: POOL/REUTERS

In the same address, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Hamas leaders are living on “borrowed time.”

“They are marked for death,” he said. “The struggle is worldwide, both the terrorists in Gaza and those who fly in expensive planes.”

While Israel typically tries to keep such efforts secret, the nation’s leaders have shown few reservations about revealing their intentions to hunt down everyone responsible for the Oct. 7 attack, just like they did to those responsible for the Palestinian terrorist attack that killed 11 Israeli athletes and coaches at the Munich Olympics in 1972. 

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

Can Hamas survive as an organization following the war with Israel? Join the conversation below.

Israel is already working to kill or capture Hamas leaders inside Gaza, the officials said. The question now for Israeli leaders isn’t about whether to try to kill Hamas leaders elsewhere in the world, but where—and how, the officials said.

The evolving plans are an extension of Israel’s war in Gaza and a reflection of its intentions to ensure that Hamas can never again pose a serious threat to Israel—just as the U.S. led a global coalition against Islamic State militants who set up a self-proclaimed caliphate in parts of Iraq and Syria. As part of the effort, Israel is also looking at whether it could forcibly expel thousands of low-level Hamas fighters from Gaza as a way to shorten the war.

Targeted killings abroad can violate international law and run the risk of blowback from nations in which assassins operate without their permission. In practice, however, Israel and others have pursued targeted killings and weathered the repercussions.

Israel’s plans to target Hamas leaders began to take shape shortly after Oct. 7, when Hamas militants carried out a brazen cross-border attack that Israel said killed 1,200 people, most of them civilians. More than 200 others, including American and Europeans holding dual Israeli citizenship, were abducted and taken back to Gaza.

Khaled Meshaal, seen at his mother’s funeral in Jordan seven years ago, is an Israeli target. PHOTO: JAMAL NASRALLAH/EUROPEAN PRESSPHOTO AGENCY

Some Israeli officials wanted to launch an immediate campaign to kill Meshaal and other Hamas leaders living abroad, the officials said. The officials were especially incensed by a video of Meshaal, and other Hamas leaders, including its top political chief, Ismail Haniyeh, celebrating and praying at one of their offices while watching live news coverage of the Oct. 7 attacks.

Israel isn’t known to have carried out any targeted-killing operations in Qatar, and doing so after Oct. 7 could have torpedoed continuing efforts to negotiate the release of those held hostage, the officials said. Those concerns helped temper efforts to immediately embark on the assassination campaign, but the planning continues, they said.

Qatar has become the central hub for the hostage talks, with the head of the Mossad, David Barnea, meeting CIA chief William Burns in Doha earlier this week for more discussions. Doha has helped to secure the release of dozens of Israeli hostages held by Gaza militants in return for the release of Palestinians held in Israeli prisons. More than 130 hostages remain in Gaza, according to Israel’s account.

Netanyahu’s vow to hunt down Hamas leaders around the world has sparked a debate among former intelligence officials.

Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy. PHOTO: TONY BOCK / TORONTO STAR VIA GETTY IMAGES

Efraim Halevy, a former Mossad director, called it ill-advised. Killing Hamas leaders won’t eliminate the threat, he said. It has the potential to instead inflame the group’s followers and accelerate creation of even worse threats.

“Pursuing Hamas on a worldwide scale and trying to systematically remove all its leaders from this world is a desire to exact revenge, not a desire to achieve a strategic aim,” said Halevy, who called the plan “far-fetched.”

Amos Yadlin, a retired Israeli general who once led the military’s intelligence agency, said the campaign “is what justice demands.”

“All the Hamas leaders, all those who participated in the attack, who planned the attack, who ordered the attack, should be brought to justice or eliminated,” Yadlin said. “It’s the right policy.”

Perhaps no other nation has Israel’s experience in carrying out worldwide assassination campaigns. Since World War II, Israel has conducted more than 2,700 such operations, according to the book “Rise and Kill First,” by Israeli journalist Ronen Bergman.

Even before Israel was founded in 1948, Jewish militants killed European diplomats who were involved in the British administration of Mandatory Palestine. In the 1960s, Israeli spies used letter bombs to target former Nazi Germany scientists helping Egypt develop rockets. 

The campaigns have sometimes backfired. 

A demonstrator in Lebanon displays a photo of Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh, assassinated in Syria in 2008. PHOTO: MARWAN NAAMANI /GETTY IMAGES

In 1997, Netanyahu, then serving his first term as prime minister, ordered Israeli spies to kill Meshaal, a Hamas founder who was then living in Jordan. The Israeli team entered Jordan posing as Canadian tourists and attacked Meshaal outside the Hamas political office in Amman. One Israeli assassin sprayed a toxin into Meshaal’s ear but he was captured along with another member of the team before they could escape.

Meshaal fell into a coma, and Jordan threatened to terminate its peace treaty with Israel. Then-President Bill Clinton pressed Netanyahu to end the crisis by sending his Mossad chief to Amman with the antidote that saved Meshaal’s life. Israel then secured the freedom of its operatives in Jordan by agreeing to release Yassin, the Hamas spiritual leader, and 70 other Palestinian prisoners.

Meshaal later described the failed assassination attempt as a “turning point” that helped empower Hamas.

Israel continued its assassination campaign against Hamas for years.

In 2010, a team of Israeli operatives using forged European passports flew to Dubai, where they masqueraded as tourists while awaiting the arrival of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, a founder of the Hamas military wing who led the group’s efforts to buy weapons. 

Mourners including Khaled Meshaal, bottom left, marched with the coffin of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in 2010. PHOTO: BASSEM TELLAWI/ASSOCIATED PRESS

Surveillance video later captured members of the team, dressed as tennis players, following Mabhouh to his room, where the Israelis paralyzed and then suffocated the Hamas leader. While it initially appeared that Mabhouh had died of natural causes, Dubai officials eventually identified the hit team and accused Israel of the assassination. 

It took years to repair the damage to Israel’s relations with the United Arab Emirates.

It was the deadly Palestinian militant attack on Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics that cemented the nation’s embrace of covert assassinations as a tool of government policy. 

Palestinian gunmen with a group known as Black September took a group of Israeli athletes and coaches hostage in the Olympic Village, leading to a two-day standoff that ended with a failed rescue attempt by West German police. All 11 Israeli hostages were killed. 

In response, then-Prime Minister Golda Meir ordered Israeli spies to hunt down and kill all Palestinian militants involved in the attack. The covert campaign was dubbed Operation Wrath of God and became the subject of an Oscar-nominated 2005 Steven Spielberg movie.

Ehud Barak, pictured in 2012, took part in a campaign to hunt down Palestinian militants abroad in the 1970s. PHOTO: ISSEI KATO/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES

Israeli assassins spent 20 years hunting those linked to the Munich attack. They killed Palestinians in France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus and Lebanon. They used a remote-controlled bomb hidden inside a phone in France and used guns with silencers to kill targets in the streets of Rome.

Among those to take part in the yearslong effort was Ehud Barak, then a young Israeli commando who went on to become prime minister. In 1973, Barak, dressed as a woman, was part of a team that sneaked into Beirut to kill three Palestinian militants linked to the Munich attack. They killed all three in a matter of minutes. 

But Operation Wrath of God also led to one of Israel’s most embarrassing covert failures in 1973, when a team of Israeli operatives killed a Moroccan waiter in Norway who they had mistakenly identified as a Palestinian militant involved in the Munich attack. Six of the 15 Israeli operatives were arrested and five were sentenced to short prison terms for their roles in the killing.

Write to Dion Nissenbaum at dion.nissenbaum@wsj.com

 

 

I know this guy from India who can give them a referral…

[Viper 12104]

This would be encouraging. Forming a moderate sunni block to counter the shia Iran regime in the region would be a welcome development

 

[atomheartbevo 89629]

US Navy trolling Iran with Arabian Gulf mention

 

[atomheartbevo 89629]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pentagon-says-us-warship-multiple-163330262.html

An American warship and multiple commercial ships came under attack Sunday in the Red Sea, the Pentagon said. Yemen's Houthi rebels later claimed attacks on two ships they described as being linked to Israel, but did not acknowledge targeting a U.S. Navy vessel.

The attack potentially marked a major escalation in a series of maritime attacks in the Mideast linked to the Israel-Hamas war.

“We’re aware of reports regarding attacks on the USS Carney and commercial vessels in the Red Sea and will provide information as it becomes available,” the Pentagon told The Associated Press.

The Carney is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. It remained unclear what damage, if any, the vessels sustained in the attacks.

The British military earlier said there had been a suspected drone attack and explosions in the Red Sea, without elaborating.

The Pentagon did not identify where it believed the fire came from. However, Houthi military spokesman Brig. Gen. Yahya Saree claimed the attacks, saying the first vessel was hit by a missile and the second by a drone while in the Bab el-Mandeb Strait that links the Red Sea to the Gulf of Aden. He described the ships as allegedly ignoring warnings from Houthi officials prior to the attack.

Saree did not mention any U.S. warship being involved in the attack.