Israel-Hamas war thread

[cactusflinthead 27626]

54 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I don’t understand that at all.

Penelope has negged every one of my posts on CR. I have her on ignore. @immamac I think it’s about time for me to exit. Nuke my account. This board stifles any conversation, and I don’t ever wanna post here again. 

Rex Beeper you don't have to announce your departure.

Just go if you can't take it any more. Or you could avoid saying shit that gets you negged. Does she neg you every time you post in Oil Barons? The Ticket thread?

But, there's the door if you want to go. 

Gonna make imma scrub the site again? That's so much fun.

[cactusflinthead 27626]

People are shitty. And have been shitty to each other for a long damn time.

I've avoided this thread and the news about it. But, I couldn't completely get away from it. 

I want to watch baseball and football and think about the start of hockey. Not how shitty people are doing mean and extra shitty things to other people. Burned alive, beheadings, and other shit too mean to mention. They have uncorked the bottle again and it's going to be messy.

There are no winners. Just a pause in the ongoing shit storm.

End Lahey rant

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

2 hours ago, GabrielsHorn said:

It is insane that this is popping up in colleges in the West. 

I get the support for Palestinians as a whole, but there is a disgusting amount of glorification of terrorism going on. 

We are very much in two wrongs don’t make a right territory.  Hamas is a terrorist organization and is doing unspeakable things.  The Israeli government has been running an apartheid state in the West Bank and has done unspeakable things.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.  Seems like a lot of folks have a hard time getting their heads around that.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

I don’t understand that at all.

Penelope has negged every one of my posts on CR. I have her on ignore. @immamac I think it’s about time for me to exit. Nuke my account. This board stifles any conversation, and I don’t ever wanna post here again. 

You got negged because you basically said some pretty horrible things in that thread.  You also have repeatedly shown your ass, showing that you know nothing about what you are talking about, and have been pointedly told that by a number of people. Sorry you got your fee fees hurt on an internet message board.  Lol. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[staboner 5084]

7 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

People are shitty. And have been shitty to each other for a long damn time.

I've avoided this thread and the news about it. But, I couldn't completely get away from it. 

I want to watch baseball and football and think about the start of hockey. Not how shitty people are doing mean and extra shitty things to other people. Burned alive, beheadings, and other shit too mean to mention. They have uncorked the bottle again and it's going to be messy.

There are no winners. Just a pause in the ongoing shit storm.

End Lahey rant

yeah man, right there with you. I've got nothing. 20+ years of adulthood watching this conflict. The only thing I've learned is a stalemate does nothing but kick the can down the road. The only way this stops is one side completely destroying the other.

I got nothing. Just sad, real sad

Edited October 10, 2023 by staboner

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I can’t stand some of your posts because they convey the thoughts of someone with a very limited view of the world, but I would hope that you wouldn’t throw in the towel because this place educates everyone. I’ve learned a lot here. I do believe indiscriminate negging of all posts should be dealt with.

 

 

 

 

I’m not sure what I posted that’d indicate a limited world view. I like you as a poster though I misread you early on and was kind of a cocksucker to you. I’m sorry. This is an impossible group to have a dialogue here. 

10 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Rex Beeper you don't have to announce your departure.

Just go if you can't take it any more. Or you could avoid saying shit that gets you negged. Does she neg you every time you post in Oil Barons? The Ticket thread?

But, there's the door if you want to go. 

Gonna make imma scrub the site again? That's so much fun.

Not Rex, I am Beeper, I am going and have PM’ed imma that I’d prefer to be scrubbed but don’t need to be. Penelope negs me where she can find me. Any serious topic will be stifled by her and posters like her. They dominate the board and anyone who knows me in real life, I’d just rather not be associated with the site. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You got negged because you basically said some pretty disposable things in that thread.  You also have repeatedly shown your ass, showing that you know nothing about what you are talking about.  Sorry you got your fee fees burn on an internet message board.  Lol.

Feelings don’t get hurt on a message board. I’d just rather have zero to do with you. And there are too many people like you. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

I’m not sure what I posted that’d indicate a limited world view. I like you as a poster though I misread you early on and was kind of a cocksucker to you. I’m sorry. This is an impossible group to have a dialogue here. 

Not Rex, I am Beeper, I am going and have PM’ed imma that I’d prefer to be scrubbed but don’t need to be. Penelope negs me where she can find me. Any serious topic will be stifled by her and posters like her. They dominate the board and anyone who knows me in real life, I’d just rather not be associated with the site. 

Lol, no, I leave you alone except for the crap you have been spewing today.  You advocated genocide against an entire people.  That is pretty despicable stuff.  Internet message board rep, serious bidness.

[cactusflinthead 27626]

Ok well I guess you can go enlighten some other more receptive folks.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Lol, no, I leave you alone except for the crap you have been spewing today.  You advocated genocide against an entire people.  That is pretty despicable stuff.  Internet message board rep, serious bidness.

I have you on ignore, and only have viewed your last two posts because you’ve effectively pushed me away forever. I’m pretty educated on the topic, and, I’d never advocate genocide and didn’t earlier, ever. Relocation (IF needed) is NOT genocide. 

@immamacplease please please close my account. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[nineliveslost 3000]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

I have you on ignore, and only have viewed your last two posts because you’ve effectively pushed me away forever. I’m pretty educated on the topic, and, I’d never advocate genocide and didn’t earlier, ever. Relocation (IF needed) is NOT genocide. 

@immamacplease please please close my account. 

man just move on. I have nothing against you, but you have let it get under your skin. I disagree with a lot of posters but don't get so wrapped up with the interweb bullshit. 

 

[GabrielsHorn 2244]

 

[butthurt 1568]

Y'all need to take it to the board discussion thread and quit gumming up this one.

[BrickHorn 18447]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

@immamac I think it’s about time for me to exit

Terminator X it!

[Skipper 6411]

23 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Lol, no, I leave you alone except for the crap you have been spewing today.  You advocated genocide against an entire people.  That is pretty despicable stuff.  Internet message board rep, serious bidness.

Keep in the Cloak Room.  

[InkaUtexas 26859]

24 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Ok well I guess you can go enlighten some other more receptive folks.

 

I wonder if Texags is recruiting? NIL? Transfer in the portal?  

[cactusflinthead 27626]

Gonna try to get the bus back on the road.

Without reviewing the preceding 7 pages what's up with this?

This is news and this is the news

[InkaUtexas 26859]

Post it in CR and I will comment, but not here. 

[cactusflinthead 27626]

Yeah, I figured it was right at the line 

Funny how the news is that way.

 

[atomheartbevo 90626]

4 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

r/combatfootage has a lot of, well, combat footage from this conflict.

The paraglider footage is insane, dozens of them in the skies at once - that's some 1980s G I Joe cartoon shit.

3 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

I’m pretty shocked to see the vehement response from Palestinian supporters across Euro and US and Canada. Israeli-Palestinian relations had gone dormant for the last 10 years or so. From my somewhat-educated observations. These supporters just don’t have a leg to stand on. Im wondering if we’re seeing the beginnings of a much larger global conflict. 

Yeah, a lot of us had not paid any attention to Israel and the Palestinians for the most part in recent years, or if we did, it was Netanyahu's moves concerning the judiciary, which was causing civil unrest among Israelis. It does feel like somebody is trying to kickstart something that's big.

It's odd, because it's given Israel the chance to declare open season on Hamas in general, but they'll be hunting down the leadership pretty quickly, so those guys have basically committed suicide by Israeli special ops (or bombs).

This is way too organized though, so something is going on.  There are way too many accounts of them blowing the doors on Israeli homes and then blowing the doors to the safe rooms that a lot of Israelis have.  While blowing a door may not seem like a big deal, there's too many accounts of them doing it quickly and competently.  And the paraglider shit and the drone attacks on the radar/signals gathering sites and having all of the rockets/missiles ready to go, and the timing to catch large numbers in the open (the music festival) and working to maximize hostage taking.  There were times where it seemed like they were surprised that things had worked out as well as it did for them in the opening stages - they looked disorganized in terms of the hostage taking, but in other areas, they moved like they had military training.  Still, I'd have to think that all of these guys expected it to be a one-way trip to the grave.

This is some serious fucking training and planning.  It's not just Hamas leadership meeting in Tehran last week and getting a greelight for something they ginned up in a few weeks, somebody has been training them, somebody with recent experience (in terms of the drone attacks).

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Yeah, I figured it was right at the line 
Funny how the news is that way.
 

I have said this many times, many news stories and events are inherently political. The idea of no politics in DT is fucking stupid. Twitter/threads/reuters does just fine at reporting the news.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-09/israeli-palestinian-conflict-explained-from-peacemaking-to-war?sref=knoriXqz

This is an excellent primer on how we got here.  Posted text below for those without Bloomberg.  Trying to get the graphics.
 

Quote

The notion that Israelis and Palestinians can share the Holy Land living in separate, independent nations fueled on-and-off peace talks for more than 20 years. But the latest round foundered in 2014. In recent years, Israel has focused on making peace with Arab states, leaving the Palestinians with limited self-rule under the ultimate control of Israel. The Palestinian-Israeli violence that broke out in October challenged the idea that the status quo was sustainable, reviving calls for diplomacy aimed at the two-state solution. That option, however, is hardly popular on either side.

1. What’s the history of the two-state solution?

The two-state solution dates to the 1937 Peel Commission, which recommended partitioning what was then British Mandatory Palestine to stop Arab-Jewish violence. The United Nations embraced a different partition plan in 1947, but the Arabs rejected both, leading to Israel’s declaration of independence in 1948 and the first Arab-Israeli war. That period produced more than half a million Palestinian refugees. In a 1967 war, Israel captured, among other Arab territories, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, putting residents under military occupation and fanning Palestinian nationalism. After a Palestinian uprising that began in 1987 claimed more than 1,200 Palestinian and 200 Israeli lives, secret negotiations produced the landmark 1993 Oslo accords. As an interim measure, Palestinians gained limited self-rule under an entity called the Palestinian Authority.
 

2. Why did the Oslo accords fall short?

The military occupation, Israeli settlement building and violence continued, as the two sides repeatedly failed to resolve issues standing in the way of a promised final agreement that presumably would have established a Palestinian state. A second Palestinian uprising, from 2000 to 2005, was especially bloody. Most countries already recognize Palestine as a state, but that hasn’t changed things on the ground: Israel has ultimate control over the territory. Stumbling blocks in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations included where to draw borders, how to share Jerusalem, and the status of Palestinian refugees. Israel acted alone in 2005, withdrawing its troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip, while largely sealing the frontier and later imposing a blockade after the militant group Hamas wrested control of the territory from the Palestinian Authority in 2007. Gaza subsequently became a launchpad for rockets, mortars and Palestinian fighters into Israel.

3. What do Israelis and Palestinians think of a two-state solution?

A joint survey of Israelis and Palestinians conducted in December 2022 found that support for a two-state solution had fallen to the lowest level since 2016. According to the survey, the idea was supported by 33% of Palestinians and 34% of Israeli Jews. 

4. What are the alternatives?

Many Israelis support the idea of extending Israeli sovereignty to at least part of the West Bank, where Israeli settlement-building has continued. Supporters of annexation say Israelis have a right to remain permanently in the West Bank, which they call by its biblical name of Judea and Samaria — the cradle of Jewish civilization. If Israel ultimately took full control over more Palestinians in the West Bank, it would have to choose between offering them citizenship — thereby diluting the country’s Jewish majority — or keeping them stateless, reinforcing accusations of apartheid. In the December poll, 37% of Israeli Jews said they’d like to see a solution involving a single non-democratic state in which Palestinians didn’t have equal rights. Thirty percent of Palestinians said they wanted a single, Palestinian-dominated state. Smaller minorities on both sides supported a binational state with equal rights for everyone.

The Reference Shelf

• Related QuickTakes on Hamas, the Gaza Strip, Israeli settlements, the issue of annexation, the battle over Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees and the Golan Heights.
• Results of the December 2022 Israeli-Palestinian poll on solutions to the conflict.
• The Council on Foreign Relations’ digest of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• A discussion hosted by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace on the two-state versus the one-state solution.

 

— With assistance by Dave Merrill

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[cactusflinthead 27626]

I have gotten a pile of negs for citing a straight news source. Got a bunch of props too though.

I think I ended up at -1. Maybe. It was a pittance to pay at any rate.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

[UpperWestside 6268]

1 hour ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

Iran needs to find out 

Gritty is really backed up at the moment on handing out finding out punishment. Give Gritty some time to do its thing.

[cactusflinthead 27626]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-09/israeli-palestinian-conflict-explained-from-peacemaking-to-war?sref=knoriXqz

This is an excellent primer on how we got here.  Posted text below for those without Bloomberg.  Trying to get the graphics.
 

 

Do they start at 50000ya? Because that's how far it goes. People have been fighting over that corner of dirt since we walked out of Africa about that long ago or maybe add 50k. 

It used to be pretty green. There used to be forests and lions and shit. 

We burned, dug, ate, and killed off everything right down to the bedrock. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19305]

1 minute ago, cactusflinthead said:

Do they start at 50000ya? Because that's how far it goes. People have been fighting over that corner of dirt since we walked out of Africa about that long ago or maybe add 50k. 

It used to be pretty green. There used to be forests and lions and shit. 

We burned, dug, ate, and killed off everything right down to the bedrock. 

No, this keeps it to starting at the Peel Commission.  Yeah. These folks have been fighting for thousands of years, but this focuses on 20th century forward.

[UpperWestside 6268]

10 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

The paraglider footage is insane, dozens of them in the skies at once - that's some 1980s G I Joe cartoon shit.

Yeah, a lot of us had not paid any attention to Israel and the Palestinians for the most part in recent years, or if we did, it was Netanyahu's moves concerning the judiciary, which was causing civil unrest among Israelis. It does feel like somebody is trying to kickstart something that's big.

It's odd, because it's given Israel the chance to declare open season on Hamas in general, but they'll be hunting down the leadership pretty quickly, so those guys have basically committed suicide by Israeli special ops (or bombs).

This is way too organized though, so something is going on.  There are way too many accounts of them blowing the doors on Israeli homes and then blowing the doors to the safe rooms that a lot of Israelis have.  While blowing a door may not seem like a big deal, there's too many accounts of them doing it quickly and competently.  And the paraglider shit and the drone attacks on the radar/signals gathering sites and having all of the rockets/missiles ready to go, and the timing to catch large numbers in the open (the music festival) and working to maximize hostage taking.  There were times where it seemed like they were surprised that things had worked out as well as it did for them in the opening stages - they looked disorganized in terms of the hostage taking, but in other areas, they moved like they had military training.  Still, I'd have to think that all of these guys expected it to be a one-way trip to the grave.

This is some serious fucking training and planning.  It's not just Hamas leadership meeting in Tehran last week and getting a greelight for something they ginned up in a few weeks, somebody has been training them, somebody with recent experience (in terms of the drone attacks).

I think it is fair to say that there probably are some Russian operatives on the ground that helped train them. 

[cactusflinthead 27626]

3 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

No, this keeps it to starting at the Peel Commission.  Yeah. These folks have been fighting for thousands of years, but this focuses on 20th century forward.

Orde Wingate is an interesting side character. Sort of a counterpoint to Lawrence imo.

[InkaUtexas 26859]

1 minute ago, UpperWestside said:

I think it is fair to say that there probably are some Russian operatives on the ground that helped train them. 

Rumors are training took place in Africa. I would think Iran is more likely since the UN is all over the Sahel. 

[InkaUtexas 26859]

First direct report I see of a named American. 

 

[Viper 12218]

3 hours ago, NoRagrets said:

There are reports that there’s a video of Hamas burning a teenager to death in front of a cheering crowd. 

Someone else said that was an old video from south America. I don't know because I am not going to watch it and analyze it. 

 

2 hours ago, Chopper said:

I have no idea of what offensive or defensive capabilities Israel has vis-a-vis Iran, Hamas, or Hezbollah but my impression is Netanyahu has been railing for a chance to go after Iran for years and the US is what's stopped him. With the terrorist attacks by Hamas however the US just lost all leverage. IMO Israel isn't planning on stopping after they decimate Hamas but time will tell.

Netanyahu's primary focus has been on changing Israel's justice system so he can avoid serving time in prison. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-warns-netanyahu-that-reservist-protest-refusals-could-spread-in-military The protests have been massive and have included many reservists. Reportedly thousands were refusing service but I imagine that changed over the weekend.

 

Saw a tweet that they have called up 300,000 reserves, though the initial number was 100, 000

Edited October 10, 2023 by Viper

[GabrielsHorn 2244]

12 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

First direct report I see of a named American. 

 

Another one and it’s heartbreaking.

 

[immamac 44290]

What the actual fuck is wrong with some of you? We get it this is serious and a lot of people are going to die and it's a terrible situation that's been brewing for the better part of a century that is unfortunately coming to a head with no clean or really any resolution in sight except a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. 

Stop calling people genocidal maniacs and fucking throwing around hyperbolic nonsense labels at people who are just trying to fucking talk through the complicated situation and maybe learn a thing or two about what's going on. I don't care who you are no one is an expert in this, not even within the fucking governments and militaries that are involved. That's how convoluted and fucked up this is, so please for fucks sake just keep this thread to the news and stop with the armchair pretend like you are going to fix the fucking middle east on surly bullshit. 

[Viper 12218]

12 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Tell him to take Frank Drebin, the grocery store racist with him.   Good riddance.  Too bad they weren’t at the rave.  

You should go sleep it off and start fresh in the morning 

[strangulation! 1716]

15 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Tell him to take Frank Drebin, the grocery store racist with him.   Good riddance.  Too bad they weren’t at the rave.  

The Ukraine thread goes strong at almost 1500 pages - 95% news, facts and actual discussion. Not sure this one will make double digits thanks to crap like this.

[InkaUtexas 26859]

And yet, today, very little traction there. Nor on Social Media. 

[Nivek 17404]

What the actual fuck is wrong with some of you?

My father's own fear of failure has caused him to make his son the embodiment of all of his own deepest anxieties about himself, and hence his aggression transference onto me.

But I am not sure if that helps.

[Macklemore 2945]

As part of the Israel counterattack, I hope Israel takes overt steps to destabilize the Iranian regime so that it can be toppled. Rid the world of the Islamic cancer strangling Iran, you will improve the region 100 fold. The Iranian people do not consider Israelis to be their enemy. Being pro-Palestine has the same taint as being a regime supporter in Iran.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Macklemore

[InkaUtexas 26859]

Love it. Do SA next please. 

[CycleTex87 3023]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Rex Beeper you don't have to announce your departure.

Just go if you can't take it any more. Or you could avoid saying shit that gets you negged. Does she neg you every time you post in Oil Barons? The Ticket thread?

But, there's the door if you want to go. 

Gonna make imma scrub the site again? That's so much fun.

He gone 

[MirrOlure 15250]

Leadership…
 

 
At 11:52 a.m. Eastern, today’s pool reporter for the president, USA Today White House correspondent Francesca Chambers, reported “the White House has called a lid for the day, before the pool call time. We will not be seeing the president today.”

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

At 11:52 a.m. Eastern, today’s pool reporter for the president, USA Today White House correspondent Francesca Chambers, reported “the White House has called a lid for the day, before the pool call time. We will not be seeing the president today.”

 

It……Depends

[Macklemore 2945]

53 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I read Side by Side - parallel history of Israel/Palestine. I wanted to learn the Pals side of the story. Truly, the Palestinians missed every opportunity to have dignity of having their own state by boycotting and outright refusing to participate with the Peel Commission to develop a sensible partition plan. Same thing happened when the Brits punted to the UN. Guess what, if one side is willing to sit at the table to hammer out a deal and another side refuses to participate, the reasonable party will have a better outcome. Look at those maps. They could have had a majority of the land and an economic union with a more educated and successful country that could have benefited both. Refusal to accept reality and a lack of pragmatism are huge reasons why we are here. 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Macklemore

[atomheartbevo 90626]

25 minutes ago, immamac said:

 We get it this is serious and a lot of people are going to die and it's a terrible situation that's been brewing for the better part of a century that is unfortunately coming to a head with no clean or really any resolution in sight except a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. 

Are we talking about the Big 12 conference champ rematch between UT and OU, or are we talking about the Middle East?

[Skipper 6411]

39 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Rumors are training took place in Africa. I would think Iran is more likely since the UN is all over the Sahel. 

I found a good article yesterday (no idea if linked here, twitter, or where at this point) but it primarily discussed the intelligence failure and noted that a fake settlement had been built for training in Gaza (and no doubt Israel had to have been aware of it) but they didn't see it as a real thread.  Just thought it was typical radical blustering/provocative nonsense.  Basically just how asleep at the wheel the entire intelligence community was (and basically the country itself, dealing with all its internal issues) and thinking the $$ and jobs were keeping things in check. 

I mean hopefully a wake up call at home with similar infighting the past 7+ years.

[Poe It Up 126]

Saw an interview of a mother on CNN. Her daughter was kidnapped at the concert and there’s video of her in the back of a truck being driven into Gaza while people spit on her. It was fucking terrible, I don’t know how she kept her composure during the interview.  

[InkaUtexas 26859]

5 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I found a good article yesterday (no idea if linked here, twitter, or where at this point) but it primarily discussed the intelligence failure and noted that a fake settlement had been built for training in Gaza (and no doubt Israel had to have been aware of it) but they didn't see it as a real thread.  Just thought it was typical radical blustering/provocative nonsense.  Basically just how asleep at the wheel the entire intelligence community was (and basically the country itself, dealing with all its internal issues) and thinking the $$ and jobs were keeping things in check. 

I mean hopefully a wake up call at home with similar infighting the past 7+ years.

I am on an email chain with some dudes who know Intel. Most spent 30+ years in certain groups doing this. They hate the over reliance on tech and think Israel made the same mistake we made in the middle east.

You need someone in the room. A can go to B to get a shwarma and pass on information. No cell phone needed. And Hamas learned this from what I have read about readiness. Also, why did they not at least listen to Egypt if the reports of them sending intel is true? Could it be because it was Yom Kippur? 

Rise and Kill First is an interesting book about how Israel approached gathering intelligence. Long read, but for anyone interested worth it. 

 

[atomheartbevo 90626]

24 minutes ago, Nivek said:

My father's own fear of failure has caused him to make his son the embodiment of all of his own deepest anxieties about himself, and hence his aggression transference onto me.

But I am not sure if that helps.

 

and look man, I know dad has been using the internet for work since the late 1980s, and for personal stuff since the late 1990s, but I'm getting tired of holding his hand and telling him what's real and what's not real on the internet, especially over the last 4-5 years with things like Ukraine, etc.

Maybe you could pick up the slack and help out and keep him from going down stupid fucking rabbit holes?  Because he's confused about what he reads or sees because it all looks and sounds real to him.

[F250 29194]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Do they start at 50000ya? Because that's how far it goes. People have been fighting over that corner of dirt since we walked out of Africa about that long ago or maybe add 50k. 

It used to be pretty green. There used to be forests and lions and shit. 

We burned, dug, ate, and killed off everything right down to the bedrock. 

This problem started during the 20th century. This wasn't a conflict under the Ottoman nor Byzantine empires.

The idea that this is am ancient conflict is bullshit.