Israel-Hamas war thread

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

4 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

The facts don't warrant your conclusion. IDF is working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to coordinate the delivery of humanitarian aid. A single event is not equal to a strategic decision.

if the tweet above documenting the geography and timeline of the WCK strikes is accurate, someone took the decision to give the finger to the west

i don't think this is going to go well for benny

[Schulz2.0 28951]

7 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

The facts don't warrant your conclusion. IDF is working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to coordinate the delivery of humanitarian aid.

There's plenty of evidence that they've gone out of their way to stifle aid deliveries.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

if the tweet above documenting the geography and timeline of the WCK strikes is accurate, someone took the decision to give the finger to the west

i don't think this is going to go well for benny

Yeah I don't think they should have been targeting them to begin with. Even if there was one high value target, there were better ways to go about it.

My experience being involved in stories that made the news was that the backstory, the real story, was totally unrelated to the reported story. So I tend towards skepticism. I wouldn't just believe what the IDF puts out either. 

[Skipper 6129]

8 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

The problem with giving Israel the benefit of the doubt here, is that Israel keeps doing shit that requires giving them the benefit of the doubt. At a certain point it looks like a nefarious pattern.

Agreed. Why I noted I feel like this may be eventually looked at as a turning point a page or 2 back. 

Back to the strike itself and some of the subsequent posts, I don't think anyone is debating whether the decision to pull the trigger on this convoy was intentional.  I thought that was pretty damn clear based on initial reporting.  The debate was whether the IDF pulled the trigger with the actual knowledge it was a f'n Jose Andres aid convoy.

I still find that highly doubtful.   But I also think it's clear this would then fall into the category of gross negligence.  Which in and of itself is unacceptable and, to your point, pretty much removes any rational observer from continuing to give Israel the benefit of the doubt with other non-military targets.

[Brisketexan 105082]

13 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

 IDF is working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to coordinate the delivery of humanitarian aid. 

They say they are.  They are giving lip service to doing so.  Yet....

5 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

There's plenty of evidence that they've gone out of their way to stifle aid deliveries.

This this this.

Come on, man.  Come the fuck on.  Don't paint the IDF as being champions of humanitarian aid on this one.  There are a shitton of examples of them working actively against it.  And there are STATED POLICY GOALS OF ISRAELI LEADERSHIP AND IDF FORCES that want to make life so miserable for Gazans that they'll leave Gaza.  You cannot do that if you make life hospitable for them with aid.  Those are two mutually exclusive goals.

You need to be open to the idea that Israel is a fucking bad actor.  They may be a bad actor that was horrifically wronged (they were).  They may be a bad actor who has some good reasons to be defensive (they do).  They may be a bad actor acting against another really bad actor (they are).  But through all of those....they are also a bad actor themselves.

Shit, the more squirming and bullshit I see and read from the staunch Israel defenders here and elsewhere, the more I'm leaning towards this being a deliberate attack to quash aid/relief efforts.  Israel wants Gazans to be so miserable that they leave Gaza.  Killing high-profile aid workers to send a message to relief outfits that they best GTFO and stay TFO is a move that is absolutely consistent with achieving that goal.

[Brian Fantana 6682]

5 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Yeah I don't think they should have been targeting them to begin with. Even if there was one high value target, there were better ways to go about it.

My experience being involved in stories that made the news was that the backstory, the real story, was totally unrelated to the reported story. So I tend towards skepticism. I wouldn't just believe what the IDF puts out either. 

You're still trying to push the lie of WCK harboring a high value Hamas target? Where's your evidence? Israel hasn't even made this claim. It's time to put up or shut up.

WCK is one of the finest and most respected charitable organizations on the planet, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Brisketexan 105082]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're still trying to push the lie of WCK harboring a high value Hamas target? Where's your evidence? Israel hasn't even made this claim. It's time to put up or shut up.

No, see....even though Israeli leadership wants to force Gazans out of Gaza, it's unreasonable to even harbor the possibility that terrorizing aid organizations - a move that will clearly further that goal - would be an intentional play.

But the utterly unsupported hypothesis that the NGO that may well be the most respected NGO in the world is harboring a terrorist and thus making itself a legit target?  When even the IDF itself hasn't even suggested that?  THAT is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.  You just don't understand.

[Anastasis 23464]

3 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

It's very obviously not a fucking mistake. Jesus christ.

There is a fucking WCK sign on top of the vehicles. The route was approved in advance by the IDF. When they pulled the trigger (three times) they knew what they were aiming at. If they didn't, the level of incompetence is such that it's just one more reason we shouldn't be sending them weapons of war.  

[bolverk 29656]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You need to be open to the idea that Israel is a fucking bad actor.  They may be a bad actor that was horrifically wronged (they were).  They may be a bad actor who has some good reasons to be defensive (they do).  They may be a bad actor acting against another really bad actor (they are).  But through all of those....they are also a bad actor themselves.

One reason I've been so harsh on Israel throughout this whole thing is that I grew up really liking them. 

It's kind of like seeing that witty, bright guy you grew up knowing who got picked on once by a bunch of schoolyard bullies from bad families and somehow coming out on top in an epic brawl. But that shit went to his head and he grew up to be an asshole cop that now enjoys giving shit to those bullies and their kids. And if they get out of line, he's there to fuck shit up and may just end up with his knee on one of their throats one day.

It's heartbreaking to see him turn out that way.

[F250 28764]

23 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

The problem with giving Israel the benefit of the doubt here, is that Israel keeps doing shit that requires giving them the benefit of the doubt. At a certain point it looks like a nefarious pattern.

It's not like there is a really long history of the IDF targeting civilians or had the ICC look into war crimes committed by Israel.

 

 

[F250 28764]

27 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

I supported Netanyahu on this war up until today.  Of course, I also think he masterminded 9/11, so with my opinion, YMMV.

[bolverk 29656]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

There is a fucking WCK sign on top of the vehicles. The route was approved in advance by the IDF. When they pulled the trigger (three times) they knew what they were aiming at. If they didn't, the level of incompetence is such that it's just one more reason we shouldn't be sending them weapons of war.  

Not only pulling the trigger three times, but they watched them scramble from one car to another while trying to escape. Whoever pulled the trigger did so at each subsequent vehicle along the way.

[Brisketexan 105082]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Not only pulling the trigger three times, but they watched them scramble from one car to another while trying to escape. Whoever pulled the trigger did so at each subsequent vehicle along the way.

Shades of "I was just cleaning my gun and it went off.....three times."  Bullshit.  WCK logo big and bold right on the roof of the vehicles.  Route pre-cleared with the IDF.  That's not a fucking mistake.

[956 Worldwide 34704]

Why are we talking about Hamas being in this group when even the IDF hasn’t alleged that. 
 

All of the WCK volunteers were third country nationals from the West and Oceania. We know the name and identity of the Palestinian driver. WCK is a gold star group and I don’t believe for a moment that they allowed Hamas operatives to embed with them. This isn’t some co-opted UN shitshow, Jose Andres’ group is absolutely impeccable.

 If there was someone there, it means that theu were basically hostages and the IDF killed them all. 
 

The most charitable possibility is negligence spilling into criminality. There’s no goal-tending this one. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Anticipate other groups to follow this lead. No reason to run in Aid if it cannot be delivered.

NICOSIA, April 2 (Reuters) - Seaborne aid for Gaza is returning to Cyprus after Israel killed seven aid workers of World Central Kitchen, Cypriot officials said on Tuesday, as the U.S.-based charity said it would pause work in the occupied Palestinian territory.

World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff had just offloaded 100 tons of food aid from a barge which sailed from Cyprus when Israel attacked their vehicle convoy overnight on Monday in an airstrike.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/cyprus-president-says-cyprus-gaza-corridor-will-continue-operate-2024-04-02/

 

[Brisketexan 105082]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Anticipate other groups to follow this lead. No reason to run in Aid if it cannot be delivered.

NICOSIA, April 2 (Reuters) - Seaborne aid for Gaza is returning to Cyprus after Israel killed seven aid workers of World Central Kitchen, Cypriot officials said on Tuesday, as the U.S.-based charity said it would pause work in the occupied Palestinian territory.

World Central Kitchen (WCK) staff had just offloaded 100 tons of food aid from a barge which sailed from Cyprus when Israel attacked their vehicle convoy overnight on Monday in an airstrike.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/cyprus-president-says-cyprus-gaza-corridor-will-continue-operate-2024-04-02/

 

Mission.  Accomplished.

Tell me why we shouldn't conclude that was the EXACT goal of Israel in conducting this strike?

Want to starve out a population?  Surest way to do that is target and run off the people feeding them.  You don't even need to connect dots.  It's one dot.

[Anastasis 23464]

Seems relevant. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/02/08/national-security-memorandum-on-safeguards-and-accountability-with-respect-to-transferred-defense-articles-and-defense-services/

National Security Memorandum on Safeguards and Accountability With Respect to Transferred Defense Articles and Defense Services

[Captainant 27639]

It's funny to see BagOfHammers in here arguing that WCK was harboring Hamas without a shred of evidence besides circular logic - reminds me of 2019 when he was certain that Schiff was conspiring with Zelensky to interfere in an election. 

But JFC that timelined map a few posts up is terrible and consistent with a preplanned attack by the IDF. 

[Foosters 17843]

Bit of a segue here, but I think of this often when it comes to this conflict:

I lived in the middle east as a child, and was there in '93 when the Oslo Accords were signed. I guess as some sort of "spread the word" mission, they (not sure how spearheaded this) had a group of Israeli children and a group of Palestinian children tour various cities to talk about how life had been pre-Oslo, and how they had such a bright vision for the future. They brought both groups to speak to our grade, as we were all about the same age. They told us that as part of this goodwill tour, they had played a cricket game - Israeli kids vs Palestinians. Neither side had really any experience with stick-and-ball games.

I will never forget hearing a boy my age talk about how much better the Palestinian kids were at Cricket when neither side had any experience. The reason given for the talent gap was that the Palestinian children had been throwing rocks at tanks driving up and down their streets since they could walk, while the Israeli kids admitted not having any real experience throwing anything. 

To this day, whenever this conflict enters my mind, my immediate thought is that boy my age who grew up throwing rocks at tanks and I wonder where he is now.

[gmr548 16576]

3 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

My advice is almost always the same. Don't do war. I said it in 1991. I said it in 2003. I said it about Afghanistan. Nobody listens to me.

Jesus, fuck this bitch ass post. You were happy to keep banging the drum, then when presented with the obvious logical extension to your argument you just fold and say "well war is bad amirite"

Negged. I am embarrassed to read shit like this out of someone who graduated form the University of Texas.

[956 Worldwide 34704]

5 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

The problem with giving Israel the benefit of the doubt here, is that Israel keeps doing shit that requires giving them the benefit of the doubt. At a certain point it looks like a nefarious pattern.

Netanyahu is doing tremendous long-term damage to his country that will take decades to even begin to chip away at. His response was terrible, basically “shit happens and we will try to do better. We said sorry.” 
 

If you’re Israeli or a friend of Israel it’s time to toss him overboard for self-preservation if not because he’s awful. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

6 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're still trying to push the lie of WCK harboring a high value Hamas target? Where's your evidence? Israel hasn't even made this claim. It's time to put up or shut up.

WCK is one of the finest and most respected charitable organizations on the planet, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I saw something about a Halas target falling in briefly with the convoy or something like that. Good luck finding any info about it  now. I tried, but couldn't. 

[Jatrain 288]

32 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I saw something about a Halas target falling in briefly with the convoy or something like that. Good luck finding any info about it  now. I tried, but couldn't. 

That’s a trial balloon that didn’t work.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

Ok, from Wikipedia

Quote

According to Israeli military sources an armed man was seen on the truck, which had arrived at the warehouse. Both the truck and the armed man had stayed in the warehouse, but the three cars left on a coordinated and pre-approved route with the Israeli military.[5]

Obviously they screwed this up, but it is possible to see how something like this could happen. But the point that we question whether or not it was intentional has merit.

 

[Captainant 27639]

7 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Ok, from Wikipedia

Obviously they screwed this up, but it is possible to see how something like this could happen. But the point that we question whether or not it was intentional has merit.

 

No shit an Israeli military source would claim their war crime was an oopsie. That was an ugly lie when we were blowing up weddings in the middle east, and it's still an ugly lie when deployed today. 

[statsman 5456]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

No shit an Israeli military source would claim their war crime was an oopsie. That was an ugly lie when we were blowing up weddings in the middle east, and it's still an ugly lie when deployed today. 

You don’t think mistakes happen? When ISIS blew up a dozen marines and 100 Afghans during the flight from Kabul, the U.S. responded by using a drone to blow up a car carrying an Afghan loyal to the U.S. and his family. 
 
You don’t think mistakes happen?

[Harrison Stafford 3335]

Israel is fucking starving Palestinians,  Fuck that shit!

[Captainant 27639]

4 minutes ago, statsman said:

You don’t think mistakes happen? When ISIS blew up a dozen marines and 100 Afghans during the flight from Kabul, the U.S. responded by using a drone to blow up a car carrying an Afghan loyal to the U.S. and his family. 
 
You don’t think mistakes happen?

Mistakes happen, but as pointed out.... That's one hell of an "accident"

17 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Thats one hell of a fucking accident.

It's like the line in Chicago - "and then he ran into my knife. Ten times." At a certain point it strains credulity that this was an accident and not a planned attack. Especially when Israel has been waging a literal seige and intentionally starving the civilians and native inhabitants. For some reason, I just don't find myself giving them the benefit of the doubt

[Ted Lange 16084]

 

[Brian Fantana 6682]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

You don’t think mistakes happen? When ISIS blew up a dozen marines and 100 Afghans during the flight from Kabul, the U.S. responded by using a drone to blow up a car carrying an Afghan loyal to the U.S. and his family. 
 
You don’t think mistakes happen?

If it happens a few times, sure. Israel has at this point killed hundreds of aid workers in dozens of these "accidents". It's not a fucking mistake. The way this one went down makes it basically impossible to be a mistake. Stop reflexively caping for everything the IDF does and you'll wind up with a better perspective by default.

[FartingMonk 3606]

Bibi has gone Putin.  It's about his legacy.  The October 7th attack which I still have some questions about how they carried it off.  He knows the rest of the world especially the United States isn't going to do shit when "the red line" gets crossed so he is doing whatever he wants.  The bombing may have been accidental it may not be, but it has achieved his goal.  I don't know if his main objective is to starve the Palestinian people, but rather to starve Hamas.  If it means that keeping 240 tons of food from the Palestinians just to ensure Hamas doesn't get an ounce, I think he is willing to do that.

[Brisketexan 105082]

16 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I don't know if his main objective is to starve the Palestinian people,

But that IS the objective of the hardliners within his governing coalition...and if he loses their support, the coalition falls apart, he loses power, and he goes to jail.

Sorry, but at this point, it sure as hell looks like Israel is purposefully pursuing a campaign of genocide, and the attack on WCK was knowing and intentional, in furtherance of that goal.  Food aid to Gaza stopped?  MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

[Skipper 6129]

44 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Sorry, but at this point, it sure as hell looks like Israel is purposefully pursuing a campaign of genocide, and the attack on WCK was knowing and intentional, in furtherance of that goal.  Food aid to Gaza stopped?  MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

That's a stretch.  I know you are prone to emotional posting lately, and I expect if from many in this thread that primarily spend their time elsewhere, but the absolute most idiotic thing the IDF could do to accomplish any fucking goal (including genocide if that is your position) is target a fucking Jose Andres caravan.  I didn't watch any news last night but it was all over the news this AM as I expected. Biden issued his strongest statement yet.  Again, I think it will be a turning point as it relates to mainstream western position on this war including future assistance Israel clearly needs from the West.

So given the above, all ramifications clearly foreseeable from anyone involved in military strategy, I won't be convinced this was "ordered" from the highest level of the IDF absent clear evidence.  Again, gross negligence, a flawed (perhaps intentionally) combat operations process that shows a blatant disregard for collateral damage, sure.  But a definitive statement it was "knowing and intentional attack on the WCK" is a stretch.  Maybe for most the line between gross negligence/intentional disregard for civilian casualties vs. intentional attack on WCK doesn't matter but if we're all going to spend time discussing this then I think there is a distinction.

[Brisketexan 105082]

2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

but the absolute most idiotic thing the IDF could do to accomplish any fucking goal (including genocide if that is your position) is target a fucking Jose Andres caravan.

"That would be idiotic" is not the strong rebuttal you think it is.  And frankly, it's not even idiotic.  It's plain at this point that there's nothing that Israel can do that will cost them America's support.  That's just a political reality, especially in this election year.  Israel could openly declare that it must murder every Palestinian in Gaza, set up firing squads and bury the dead with bulldozers by the tens of thousands, and they would not lose support.  Israel has a free hand.  It is using that free hand with abandon.

Clearly marked vehicles.  Not just one, but three.

The travel plan and route of those vehicles wasn't just provided to the IDF, it was pre-cleared with them.

The strike wasn't just on one vehicle, in an instant.  It was on one vehicle.  Then another.  Then another.  And time passed between each strike, each of which was precise and on-target.

 

Sorry, the evidence points to this not just being an intentional strike, but an intentional targeting of three different WCK vehicles, KNOWING they were WCK vehicles.  I'm trying here.  I really am.  I've seen plenty of "fog of war," "oh shit we misidentified a target" shit happen over my lifetime.  It's tragic -- sometimes inexcusably negligent or reckless, too.  The three facts I listed above point to this being above and beyond even that.  All roads keep taking us to "they knew what they were hitting, and did so on purpose.  And then did it again.  And then did it again."

Oh, and the fact that the attack is paying the EXACT dividend that top Israeli leadership has openly advocated for?  Yeah....at this point, the burden is on Israel to demonstrate that it was NOT a knowing and intentional attack on WCK.  I haven't seen or read any credible defense yet, but maybe I'm missing something.

[statsman 5456]

Israeli’s initial investigation into a strike that killed seven aid workers in Gaza found its forces had wrongly identified their vehicles as hostile targets
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-blames-misidentification-for-strike-that-killed-gaza-aid-workers-f88da70e?st=eigwknbie7duiy8&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

[wildcat09 29347]

48 minutes ago, Skipper said:

That's a stretch.  I know you are prone to emotional posting lately, and I expect if from many in this thread that primarily spend their time elsewhere, but the absolute most idiotic thing the IDF could do to accomplish any fucking goal (including genocide if that is your position) is target a fucking Jose Andres caravan.  I didn't watch any news last night but it was all over the news this AM as I expected. Biden issued his strongest statement yet.  Again, I think it will be a turning point as it relates to mainstream western position on this war including future assistance Israel clearly needs from the West.

So given the above, all ramifications clearly foreseeable from anyone involved in military strategy, I won't be convinced this was "ordered" from the highest level of the IDF absent clear evidence.  Again, gross negligence, a flawed (perhaps intentionally) combat operations process that shows a blatant disregard for collateral damage, sure.  But a definitive statement it was "knowing and intentional attack on the WCK" is a stretch.  Maybe for most the line between gross negligence/intentional disregard for civilian casualties vs. intentional attack on WCK doesn't matter but if we're all going to spend time discussing this then I think there is a distinction.

Your mistake is in assuming that everyone in the IDF involved in the decision-making here are too smart to miscalculate this badly. All sorts of people, even very smart people, do all sorts of very dumb things all of the time. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

No shit.... And fuck that, they were clearly marked.

[Skipper 6129]

So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

[Skipper 6129]

I'll add this quote from a Senior US counterterrorism official per the WSJ article linked above sums up what I think the most likely explanation is.  I.e., Gross Negligence

“The team either ignored their own protocols or, over the course of the war, prewar protocols had been dropped nearly entirely,” said the former official, referring to the military’s rules of engagement that define how and when force can be used.

[Captainant 27639]

7 minutes ago, Skipper said:

So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

I don't think it's "luring" as you frame it. I believe that WCK worked with the IDF in mutually good faith, but it's not uncommon for splinter groups in a military to force the hand of their government and the international community through atrocity. It happened a WHOLE lot in the run up to WWII. 

I can completely see a hot headed boots on the ground commander that sees his mission as his part of a prophecy calling down wrath upon anyone he sees as his enemy. And people providing aid to your enemies tend to get treated like enemies. 

The brushfire war in Gaza is burning hotter and more out of control. Things like the WCK attack will only continue to happen with increasing regularity for as long as the IDF keeps pouring gas into the brushfire

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

just for the record, with respect to surveillance AND command & control at street level, the top 2 on the planet are England and Israel

the US is #1 overall at the strategic global level for intel gathering, but for acquiring and processing the type of intel that was actioned in yesterday's strikes, Israel is a clear #1 over England who only matured this capability 3 years after the Good Friday agreement, i.e. as a result of 9/11, so they've never really had to use it domestically

the person who gave the order to fire, 3 times, was looking at an infrared image with millimeter detail on 5 or 6 screens, with angles from multiple directions

israel has better visuals at night when they can deploy sensory platforms at very low altitudes

so, i wonder at whose suggestion this operation was scheduled for the middle of the night?

 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Only way we will know that is if WCK comes out with the agreement for the movement. Will they? I hope so.

[Skipper 6129]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I don't think it's "luring" as you frame it. I believe that WCK worked with the IDF in mutually good faith, but it's not uncommon for splinter groups in a military to force the hand of their government and the international community through atrocity. It happened a WHOLE lot in the run up to WWII. 

I can completely see a hot headed boots on the ground commander that sees his mission as his part of a prophecy calling down wrath upon anyone he sees as his enemy. And people providing aid to your enemies tend to get treated like enemies. 

The brushfire war in Gaza is burning hotter and more out of control. Things like the WCK attack will only continue to happen with increasing regularity for as long as the IDF keeps pouring gas into the brushfire

I could definitely buy a rogue military actor or faction doing this intentionally.  I don't know if I would say that is more likely than gross negligence but it also would not surprise me if that were determined to be the case.  

 

But that isn't what some are arguing that drew my reaction.  Brisket stated, declaratively, Israel is "purposefully pursuing a campaign of genocide, and the attack on WCK was knowing and intentional, in furtherance of that goal."

I read that as implying proper chain of command. 

[RPM 26318]

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the person who gave the order to fire, 3 times, was looking at an infrared image with millimeter detail on 5 or 6 screens, with angles from multiple directions

the WCK logo on the roof confused them, obvious Hamas tagging.

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

bibby was smiling too much when he gave his daily mea culpa yesterday

if the chain of command was "improper" he should have come off as pissed off

he is a great actor, he can carry water for whatever is needed, and yesterday he was apologizing with a smile on his face

[InkaUtexas 25875]

One thing brought up about Israel's command and control is how tight it was maintained. Rise and Kill First is a book about this and a good read.

So this order came from above. Don't think it was a rogue shooter unless the IDF's controls have collapsed.

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

32 minutes ago, Skipper said:

So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

i don't think it's where "anyone is at" but conversely occam's razor: this is trending towards the simplest explanation

this isn't the gulf war with infrared green-screen nightvision from 20 miles away

the level of technology that israel has makes "excuses" implausible explanations

the bibby batphone doesn't just "go down for 3 minutes"

[Hagbard Celine 10852]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

One thing brought up about Israel's command and control is how tight it was maintained. Rise and Kill First is a book about this and a good read.

So this order came from above. Don't think it was a rogue shooter unless the IDF's controls have collapsed.

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

[Brian Fantana 6682]

1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

They crossed that line months ago. They just have been getting bolder.

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Just now, Hagbard Celine said:

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

They crossed the line for me a long time ago. I expected some hits, but thought would be their Special Forces and Mossad. Not 155 artillery. BTW, those don't work great on tunnels. We learned that in Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq. Hell we learned that in WW2 with strategic bombing, creating cities leveled and adding hiding and ambush places.

It is a good book. Long read, but worth it.