Israel-Hamas war thread

[Da Fino 2745]

5 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

Yes, according to Israeli military and intelligence officials.  
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html#:~:text=One Western military official said,10 Israeli soldiers in December.

 

Paywalled. I’m honestly curious about the numbers. Do they give an estimate? 

[Da Fino 2745]

2 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

Paywalled. I’m honestly curious about the numbers. Do they give an estimate? 

I managed to open it in reader mode. Pretty crazy to think that this stuff being fired over is so unreliable. 
 

They are cutting open bombs from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their explosives and rockets.”

[Sawbonz 27466]

12 minutes ago, HotSauce said:

iF YOU ARENT VOCALLY MARXIST ON HERE, YOU GET NEGGED AND BANNED

Lol

[TwiceHorn 31356]

16 minutes ago, HotSauce said:

iF YOU ARENT VOCALLY MARXIST ON HERE, YOU GET NEGGED AND BANNED

Maybe try not being a cunt.

And keep your shitty politics in the cloak room.

[Anastasis 23404]

9 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

Paywalled. I’m honestly curious about the numbers. Do they give an estimate? 

Behind the tags.

Spoiler

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

The very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza are now being used against them.

Share full article

370

Israeli soldiers standing in what they say is a rocket factory that was photographed in January during an escorted tour by the military for international journalists in the central Gaza Strip.Credit...Avishag Shaar-Yashuv for The New York Times

By Maria Abi-Habib and Sheera Frenkel

Maria Abi-Habib reported from London, and Sheera Frenkel from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Published Jan. 28, 2024Updated Jan. 29, 2024

Leer en español

Want to stay updated on what’s happening in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Sign up for Your Places: Global Update, and we’ll send our latest coverage to your inbox.

Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself.

For years, analysts have pointed to underground smuggling routes to explain how Hamas stayed so heavily armed despite an Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip. But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza, according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases.

Intelligence gathered during months of fighting revealed that, just as the Israeli authorities misjudged Hamas’s intentions before Oct. 7, they also underestimated its ability to obtain arms.

What is clear now is that the very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza over the past 17 years are now being used against them. Israeli and American military explosives have enabled Hamas to shower Israel with rockets and, for the first time, invade Israeli towns from Gaza.

“Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for Hamas,” said Michael Cardash, the former deputy head of the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division and an Israeli police consultant. “They are cutting open bombs from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their explosives and rockets.”

Image

Explosives engineers in 2021 removing an unexploded Israeli missile in Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip.Credit...Samar Abu Elouf for The New York Times

Weapons experts say that roughly 10 percent of munitions typically fail to detonate, but in Israel’s case, the figure could be higher. Israel’s arsenal includes Vietnam-era missiles, long discontinued by the United States and other military powers. The failure rate on some of those missiles could be as high as 15 percent, said one Israeli intelligence officer who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

By either count, years of sporadic bombing and the recent bombardment of Gaza have littered the area with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance just waiting to be reused. One 750-pound bomb that fails to detonate can become hundreds of missiles or rockets.

Hamas did not respond to messages seeking comment. The Israeli military said in a statement that it was committed to dismantling Hamas but did not answer specific questions about the group’s weapons.

Editors’ Picks

A Historian Makes Peace With Her Own History

Was It Racist to Take Family Photos at a Wedding Without Me and My Wife?

Wyatt Flores, a Rising Country Artist, Has a Superpower: Tapping Emotions

Israeli officials knew before the October attacks that Hamas could salvage some Israeli-made weapons, but the scope has startled weapons experts and diplomats alike.

Sign up for the Israel-Hamas War Briefing.  The latest news about the conflict. Get it sent to your inbox.

Israeli authorities also knew that their armories were vulnerable to theft. A military report from early last year noted that thousands of bullets and hundreds of guns and grenades had been stolen from poorly guarded bases.

From there, the report said, some made their way to the West Bank, and others to Gaza by way of Sinai. But the report focused on military security. The consequences were treated almost as an afterthought: “We are fueling our enemies with our own weapons,” read one line of the report, which was viewed by The New York Times.

The consequences became apparent on Oct. 7. Hours after Hamas breached the border, four Israeli soldiers discovered the body of a Hamas gunman who was killed outside the Re’im military base. Hebrew writing was visible on a grenade on his belt, said one of the soldiers, who recognized it as a bulletproof Israeli grenade, a recent model. Other Hamas fighters overran the base, and Israeli military officials say some weapons were looted and returned to Gaza.

Image

An Israeli police officer in Ashkelon, Israel, carrying part of a mangled rocket fired from the Gaza Strip toward Israel on Oct. 9.Credit...Violeta Santos Moura/Reuters

A few miles away, members of an Israeli forensic team collected one of the 5,000 rockets fired by Hamas that day. Examining the rocket, they discovered that its military-grade explosives had most likely come from an unexploded Israeli missile fired into Gaza during a previous war, according to an Israeli intelligence officer.

The Oct. 7 attacks showcased the patchwork arsenal that Hamas had stitched together. It included Iranian-made attack drones and North Korean-made rocket launchers, the types of weapons that Hamas is known to smuggle into Gaza through tunnels. Iran remains a major source of Hamas’s money and weapons.

But other weapons, like anti-tank explosives, RPG warheads, thermobaric grenades and improvised devices, were repurposed Israeli arms, according to Hamas videos and remnants uncovered by Israel.

Israel-Hamas War: Live Updates

Updated 

April 11, 2024, 4:45 p.m. ETApril 11, 2024

April 11, 2024

Here’s what to know about the hunger crisis in Gaza.

UNICEF says one of its vehicles was hit by fire.

Gen. Michael Kurilla is in Israel to help coordinate on military strategy.

Rockets and missiles require huge quantities of explosive material, which officials say is the most difficult item to smuggle into Gaza.

Yet Hamas fired so many rockets and missiles on Oct. 7 that Israel’s Iron Dome air-defense system could not keep up. Rockets struck towns, cities and military bases, giving cover to the militants who stormed into Israel. One rocket hit a military base believed to house part of Israel’s nuclear missile program.

Image

Israel’s Iron Dome antimissile system intercepting rockets launched on Oct. 20 from the Gaza Strip, as seen from Ashkelon, in southern Israel.Credit...Amir Cohen/Reuters

Hamas once relied on material like fertilizer and powdered sugar — which, pound for pound, are not as powerful as military-grade explosives — to build rockets. But since 2007, Israel has enforced a strict blockade, restricting the import of goods, including electronics and computer equipment, that could be used to make weapons.

That blockade and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels leading into and out of Gaza forced Hamas to get creative.

Its manufacturing abilities are now sophisticated enough to saw into the warheads of bombs weighing up to 2,000 pounds, to harvest the explosives and to repurpose them.

“They have a military industry in Gaza. Some of it is above ground, some of it is below ground, and they are able to manufacture a lot of what they need,” said Eyal Hulata, who served as Israel’s national security adviser and head of its National Security Council before stepping down early last year.

One Western military official said that most of the explosives that Hamas is using in its war with Israel appear to have been manufactured using unexploded Israeli-launched munitions. One example, the official said, was an explosive booby trap that killed 10 Israeli soldiers in December.

The military wing of Hamas, the Qassam Brigades, has flaunted its manufacturing abilities for years. After a war in 2014 with Israel, it established engineering teams to collect unexploded munitions like howitzer rounds and American-made MK-84 bombs.

These teams work with the police’s explosive ordnance-disposal units, allowing people to safely return to their homes. They also help Hamas gear up for the next war.

“Our strategy aimed to repurpose these pieces, turning this crisis into an opportunity,” a Qassam Brigades commander told Al Jazeera in 2020.

Image

A Hamas explosives expert at a local police precinct in Khan Younis in 2021 laying out unexploded projectiles from the aftermath of a conflict with Israel that May. Credit...Mahmud Hams/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Qassam’s media arm has released videos in recent years showing exactly what they were doing: sawing into warheads, scooping out explosive material — usually a powder — and melting it down to reuse.

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

Image

Rockets being fired toward Israel from the Gaza Strip on Oct 7.Credit...Fatima Shbair/Associated Press

Israel restricts the mass importation of construction materials that can be used to build rockets and other weapons. But each new round of fighting leaves behind neighborhoods of rubble from which militants can pluck pipes, concrete and other valuable material, Mr. Alkhatib said.

Hamas cannot manufacture everything. Some things are easier to buy from the black market and smuggle into Gaza. Sinai, the largely uninhabited desert region between Israel, Egypt and the Gaza Strip, remains a hub for arms smuggling. Weapons from conflicts in Libya, Eritrea and Afghanistan have been discovered in Sinai, according to Israeli intelligence assessments.

According to two Israeli intelligence officials, at least a dozen small tunnels were still running between Gaza and Egypt before Oct. 7. A spokesman for the Egyptian government said its military had done its part to shut down tunnels on its side of the border. “Many of the weapons currently inside the Gaza Strip are the result of smuggling from within Israel,” the spokesman said in an email.

But the besieged streets of Gaza itself are increasingly a source of weapons.

Israel estimates that it has conducted at least 22,000 strikes on Gaza since Oct. 7. Each often involves multiple rounds, meaning tens of thousands of munitions have likely been dropped or fired — and thousands failed to detonate.

“Artillery, hand grenades, other munitions — tens of thousands of unexploded ordnance will be left after this war,” said Charles Birch, the head of the U.N. Mine Action Service in Gaza. These “are like a free gift to Hamas.”

Vivian Yee contributed reporting from Cairo, and Zakaria Zakaria from Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

Image

An Israeli soldier standing near armaments during an official media tour organized by the military where it displayed a variety of weapons recovered from areas hit by the Hamas militants during their Oct. 7 attack.Credit...Aris Messinis/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Maria Abi-Habib is an investigative correspondent based in Mexico City, covering Latin America. She previously reported from Afghanistan, across the Middle East and in India, where she covered South Asia. More about Maria Abi-Habib

Sheera Frenkel is a reporter based in the San Francisco Bay Area, covering the ways technology impacts everyday lives with a focus on social media companies, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Telegram and WhatsApp. More about Sheera Frenkel

A version of this article appears in print on Jan. 28, 2024, Section A, Page 1 of the New York edition with the headline: Hamas Stocks Its Arsenal With Duds Fired by Israel. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe

 

[fattyflattie 4637]

10-15%.  No idea they were that unreliable. 

[Da Fino 2745]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Behind the tags.

  Hide contents

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

The very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza are now being used against them.

Share full article

370

Israeli soldiers standing in what they say is a rocket factory that was photographed in January during an escorted tour by the military for international journalists in the central Gaza Strip.Credit...Avishag Shaar-Yashuv for The New York Times

By Maria Abi-Habib and Sheera Frenkel

Maria Abi-Habib reported from London, and Sheera Frenkel from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Published Jan. 28, 2024Updated Jan. 29, 2024

Leer en español

Want to stay updated on what’s happening in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Sign up for Your Places: Global Update, and we’ll send our latest coverage to your inbox.

Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself.

For years, analysts have pointed to underground smuggling routes to explain how Hamas stayed so heavily armed despite an Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip. But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza, according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases.

Intelligence gathered during months of fighting revealed that, just as the Israeli authorities misjudged Hamas’s intentions before Oct. 7, they also underestimated its ability to obtain arms.

What is clear now is that the very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza over the past 17 years are now being used against them. Israeli and American military explosives have enabled Hamas to shower Israel with rockets and, for the first time, invade Israeli towns from Gaza.

“Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for Hamas,” said Michael Cardash, the former deputy head of the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division and an Israeli police consultant. “They are cutting open bombs from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their explosives and rockets.”

Image

Explosives engineers in 2021 removing an unexploded Israeli missile in Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip.Credit...Samar Abu Elouf for The New York Times

Weapons experts say that roughly 10 percent of munitions typically fail to detonate, but in Israel’s case, the figure could be higher. Israel’s arsenal includes Vietnam-era missiles, long discontinued by the United States and other military powers. The failure rate on some of those missiles could be as high as 15 percent, said one Israeli intelligence officer who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

By either count, years of sporadic bombing and the recent bombardment of Gaza have littered the area with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance just waiting to be reused. One 750-pound bomb that fails to detonate can become hundreds of missiles or rockets.

Hamas did not respond to messages seeking comment. The Israeli military said in a statement that it was committed to dismantling Hamas but did not answer specific questions about the group’s weapons.

Editors’ Picks

A Historian Makes Peace With Her Own History

Was It Racist to Take Family Photos at a Wedding Without Me and My Wife?

Wyatt Flores, a Rising Country Artist, Has a Superpower: Tapping Emotions

Israeli officials knew before the October attacks that Hamas could salvage some Israeli-made weapons, but the scope has startled weapons experts and diplomats alike.

Sign up for the Israel-Hamas War Briefing.  The latest news about the conflict. Get it sent to your inbox.

Israeli authorities also knew that their armories were vulnerable to theft. A military report from early last year noted that thousands of bullets and hundreds of guns and grenades had been stolen from poorly guarded bases.

From there, the report said, some made their way to the West Bank, and others to Gaza by way of Sinai. But the report focused on military security. The consequences were treated almost as an afterthought: “We are fueling our enemies with our own weapons,” read one line of the report, which was viewed by The New York Times.

The consequences became apparent on Oct. 7. Hours after Hamas breached the border, four Israeli soldiers discovered the body of a Hamas gunman who was killed outside the Re’im military base. Hebrew writing was visible on a grenade on his belt, said one of the soldiers, who recognized it as a bulletproof Israeli grenade, a recent model. Other Hamas fighters overran the base, and Israeli military officials say some weapons were looted and returned to Gaza.

Image

An Israeli police officer in Ashkelon, Israel, carrying part of a mangled rocket fired from the Gaza Strip toward Israel on Oct. 9.Credit...Violeta Santos Moura/Reuters

A few miles away, members of an Israeli forensic team collected one of the 5,000 rockets fired by Hamas that day. Examining the rocket, they discovered that its military-grade explosives had most likely come from an unexploded Israeli missile fired into Gaza during a previous war, according to an Israeli intelligence officer.

The Oct. 7 attacks showcased the patchwork arsenal that Hamas had stitched together. It included Iranian-made attack drones and North Korean-made rocket launchers, the types of weapons that Hamas is known to smuggle into Gaza through tunnels. Iran remains a major source of Hamas’s money and weapons.

But other weapons, like anti-tank explosives, RPG warheads, thermobaric grenades and improvised devices, were repurposed Israeli arms, according to Hamas videos and remnants uncovered by Israel.

Israel-Hamas War: Live Updates

Updated 

April 11, 2024, 4:45 p.m. ETApril 11, 2024

April 11, 2024

Here’s what to know about the hunger crisis in Gaza.

UNICEF says one of its vehicles was hit by fire.

Gen. Michael Kurilla is in Israel to help coordinate on military strategy.

Rockets and missiles require huge quantities of explosive material, which officials say is the most difficult item to smuggle into Gaza.

Yet Hamas fired so many rockets and missiles on Oct. 7 that Israel’s Iron Dome air-defense system could not keep up. Rockets struck towns, cities and military bases, giving cover to the militants who stormed into Israel. One rocket hit a military base believed to house part of Israel’s nuclear missile program.

Image

Israel’s Iron Dome antimissile system intercepting rockets launched on Oct. 20 from the Gaza Strip, as seen from Ashkelon, in southern Israel.Credit...Amir Cohen/Reuters

Hamas once relied on material like fertilizer and powdered sugar — which, pound for pound, are not as powerful as military-grade explosives — to build rockets. But since 2007, Israel has enforced a strict blockade, restricting the import of goods, including electronics and computer equipment, that could be used to make weapons.

That blockade and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels leading into and out of Gaza forced Hamas to get creative.

Its manufacturing abilities are now sophisticated enough to saw into the warheads of bombs weighing up to 2,000 pounds, to harvest the explosives and to repurpose them.

“They have a military industry in Gaza. Some of it is above ground, some of it is below ground, and they are able to manufacture a lot of what they need,” said Eyal Hulata, who served as Israel’s national security adviser and head of its National Security Council before stepping down early last year.

One Western military official said that most of the explosives that Hamas is using in its war with Israel appear to have been manufactured using unexploded Israeli-launched munitions. One example, the official said, was an explosive booby trap that killed 10 Israeli soldiers in December.

The military wing of Hamas, the Qassam Brigades, has flaunted its manufacturing abilities for years. After a war in 2014 with Israel, it established engineering teams to collect unexploded munitions like howitzer rounds and American-made MK-84 bombs.

These teams work with the police’s explosive ordnance-disposal units, allowing people to safely return to their homes. They also help Hamas gear up for the next war.

“Our strategy aimed to repurpose these pieces, turning this crisis into an opportunity,” a Qassam Brigades commander told Al Jazeera in 2020.

Image

A Hamas explosives expert at a local police precinct in Khan Younis in 2021 laying out unexploded projectiles from the aftermath of a conflict with Israel that May. Credit...Mahmud Hams/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Qassam’s media arm has released videos in recent years showing exactly what they were doing: sawing into warheads, scooping out explosive material — usually a powder — and melting it down to reuse.

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

Image

Rockets being fired toward Israel from the Gaza Strip on Oct 7.Credit...Fatima Shbair/Associated Press

Israel restricts the mass importation of construction materials that can be used to build rockets and other weapons. But each new round of fighting leaves behind neighborhoods of rubble from which militants can pluck pipes, concrete and other valuable material, Mr. Alkhatib said.

Hamas cannot manufacture everything. Some things are easier to buy from the black market and smuggle into Gaza. Sinai, the largely uninhabited desert region between Israel, Egypt and the Gaza Strip, remains a hub for arms smuggling. Weapons from conflicts in Libya, Eritrea and Afghanistan have been discovered in Sinai, according to Israeli intelligence assessments.

According to two Israeli intelligence officials, at least a dozen small tunnels were still running between Gaza and Egypt before Oct. 7. A spokesman for the Egyptian government said its military had done its part to shut down tunnels on its side of the border. “Many of the weapons currently inside the Gaza Strip are the result of smuggling from within Israel,” the spokesman said in an email.

But the besieged streets of Gaza itself are increasingly a source of weapons.

Israel estimates that it has conducted at least 22,000 strikes on Gaza since Oct. 7. Each often involves multiple rounds, meaning tens of thousands of munitions have likely been dropped or fired — and thousands failed to detonate.

“Artillery, hand grenades, other munitions — tens of thousands of unexploded ordnance will be left after this war,” said Charles Birch, the head of the U.N. Mine Action Service in Gaza. These “are like a free gift to Hamas.”

Vivian Yee contributed reporting from Cairo, and Zakaria Zakaria from Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

Image

An Israeli soldier standing near armaments during an official media tour organized by the military where it displayed a variety of weapons recovered from areas hit by the Hamas militants during their Oct. 7 attack.Credit...Aris Messinis/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Maria Abi-Habib is an investigative correspondent based in Mexico City, covering Latin America. She previously reported from Afghanistan, across the Middle East and in India, where she covered South Asia. More about Maria Abi-Habib

Sheera Frenkel is a reporter based in the San Francisco Bay Area, covering the ways technology impacts everyday lives with a focus on social media companies, including Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Telegram and WhatsApp. More about Sheera Frenkel

A version of this article appears in print on Jan. 28, 2024, Section A, Page 1 of the New York edition with the headline: Hamas Stocks Its Arsenal With Duds Fired by Israel. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe

 

Thank you. 

[totallynotabuttpirate 5351]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

10-15%.  No idea they were that unreliable. 

Edited April 12 by totallynotabuttpirate

[Bevo 13534]

10 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

no, i am against the Jewish expulsion from Arab lands. Not only is that immoral against innocent people, that strengthens Israel's hand with more people.  The expulsion was a reaction to the creation of Israel.

So would you be okay with Jews running countries in the Middle East Arab lands?

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

8 minutes ago, Bevo said:

So would you be okay with Jews running countries in the Middle East Arab lands?

that's fine with me. 

They already do /sarcasm

[Bevo 13534]

11 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

that's fine with me. 

They already do /sarcasm

So it would be okay for Jews to run Iran for example?

[MissingInAction 24870]

On 3/31/2024 at 7:52 PM, Bevo said:

Ass too perfect.

WNB

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

14 minutes ago, Bevo said:

So it would be okay for Jews to run Iran for example?

sure

[Thetexashammer 1062]

1. Israel recently opened two new ports of entry for humanitarian aid. Obviously there was no strategic decision to starve 2 million Gazans. Anyone claiming this is experiencing hallucinations.

2. If you live in southern Israel, you are required to have a bomb shelter in your building. When Hamas launches missiles (toward civilian populations), an alert is sounded and you have 30 seconds to get to you and your loved ones into the shelter. This has been going on for decades. 

Most people probably remember the scene is Zero Dark Thirty where the CIA is meeting with an informant at a base in Afghanistan. For five miles in every direction around the base, there is nothing but desert. This is called "standoff". It is a safety perimeter that secures the lives of the people living on the base.

What Israel requires is a safety perimeter for its civilian population so that they are not constantly being bombarded with missiles. I see no reason anyone should be subject to a small but constant stream of missile attacks as a permanent condition of existing. Frankly this should never have been acceptable.  This went on for decades prior to the war, so these missiles were mostly sourced in Iran and brought in via tunnels built from construction materials Israel allowed into Gaza.

Gaza was an open air prison prior to the war. Given what Hamas did, I can't think it's going to be anything but far worse in Gaza than it was before. I don't think Israel will let in much more than some food and medicine, certainly not construction materials which will allow for the creation of tunnels and rearming of Hamas. As far as Israel continuing to provide electricity to the Strip, I am also skeptical.  Possibly some water. Support for the Gazans from Israel will be extremely limited. The Gazans are going to live in conditions I wouldn't wish on anyone, with no prospect of ever having decent lives and the constant threat of being killed.

Edited April 12 by Thetexashammer

[Brisketexan 104787]

4 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

1. Israel recently opened two new ports of entry for humanitarian aid. Obviously there was no strategic decision to starve 2 million Gazans. Anyone claiming this is experiencing hallucinations.

2. If you live in southern Israel, you are required to have a bomb shelter in your building. When Hamas launches missiles (toward civilian populations), an alert is sounded and you have 30 seconds to get to you and your loved ones into the shelter. This has been going on for decades. 

Most people probably remember the scene is Zero Dark Thirty where the CIA is meeting with an informant at a base in Afghanistan. For five miles in every direction around the base, there is nothing but desert. This is called "standoff". It is a safety perimeter that secures the lives of the people living on the base.

What Israel requires is a safety perimeter for its civilian population so that they are not constantly being bombarded with missiles. I see no reason anyone should be subject to a small but constant stream of missile attacks as a permanent condition of existing. Frankly this should never have been acceptable.  This went on for decades prior to the war, so these missiles were mostly sourced in Iran and brought in via tunnels built from construction materials Israel allowed into Gaza.

Gaza was an open air prison prior to the war. Given what Hamas did, I can't think it's going to be anything but far worse in Gaza than it was before. I don't think Israel will let in much more than some food and medicine, certainly not construction materials which will allow for the creation of tunnels and rearming of Hamas. As far as Israel continuing to provide electricity to the Strip, I am also skeptical.  Possibly some water. Support for the Gazans from Israel will be extremely limited. The Gazans are going to live in conditions I wouldn't wish on anyone, with no prospect of ever having decent lives and the constant threat of being killed.

And with that culminating sentence, I bring you this live image of Thetexashammer:

[Frank Drebin 5636]

13 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

no, for decades before Oct 7th, the obvious backstory that few know. 

They don't like a tiny country of Jews living in the middle of their Caliphate.

[Brian Fantana 6672]

13 hours ago, Da Fino said:

Vast majority? You believe that? Also, isn’t this the news thread? 
 

 

 

13 hours ago, Jatrain said:

Yes, according to Israeli military and intelligence officials.  
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html#:~:text=One Western military official said,10 Israeli soldiers in December.

 

Seems like it's news to you! 

[Da Fino 2745]

16 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Seems like it's news to you! 

Did you read it? It's pretty interesting. 

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

[Brian Fantana 6672]

Just now, Da Fino said:

Did you read it? It's pretty interesting. 

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

Yeah for sure, it's an interesting topic. Their resourcefulness would be admirable if it wasn't being used to lob rockets at people.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

They don't like a tiny country of Jews living in the middle of their Caliphate.

not about religion 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

2 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

not about religion 

For him, it is. It has to be.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-israel-hamas-war

[Nivek 16878]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:31 AM, MissingInAction said:

Ass too perfect.

WNB

What are things Nivek has never said.    Let's stay with Asses for 1000 Alex.

[InkaUtexas 25600]

Cross posting from CR. Reports are Iran has launched a large drone attack. Jordan and Iraq have closed their airspaces.

[leaf 681]

CNN saying that Iran has launched drones to attack Israel.

[leaf 681]

 

Edited April 13 by leaf
Muledick

[billfromlaketravis 11382]

Iron Dome is better than anything we have, so I doubt many drones get through, but… some will. 
 

Israel can hit any target they want in Iran so their response will be interesting. 

[Parliament 14156]

And I presume we can see exactly where in Iran where those missiles are coming from?

[Nicole44 22030]

4 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Iron Dome is better than anything we have, so I doubt many drones get through, but… some will. 
 

Israel can hit any target they want in Iran so their response will be interesting. 

🙏🏼 my heart just aches. There will be a response. And quite frankly if Israel took out the theocracy of Iran with a couple of blasts I’d not give two fucks. Mind you I’m not talking about civilians. I’m talking about where their “government” is and leaders are.
 

sad shit of affairs that’s happened to their country since the Shah fell. Jmo. Sorry for posting in the thread after my singular post months ago but this is just upsetting and scary shit. 

[billfromlaketravis 11382]

2 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

🙏🏼 my heart just aches. There will be a response. And quite frankly if Israel took out the theocracy of Iran with a couple of blasts I’d not give two fucks. Mind you I’m not talking about civilians. I’m talking about where their “government” is and leaders are.
 

sad shit of affairs that’s happened to their country since the Shah fell. Jmo. Sorry for posting in the thread after my singular post months ago but this is just upsetting and scary shit. 

I mean we’ll see. The Houthis have handed the Iranians a playbook on how to befuddle a much more advanced military force. Not putting important stuff in fixed targets is a good start but… Iran is a pretty developed nation. Israel should hit their power grid and go from there. 

[blacklab 11885]

use this thread for Israel-Hamas, there's a thread for Israel-Iran

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

hundreds of civilians walk back to their northern Gaza homes, only to be blasted by the IDF. No word on casualty counts. 

 

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

Oh dang must be another mistake.  Oopsie!

[leaf 681]

6 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

hundreds of civilians walk back to their northern Gaza homes, only to be blasted by the IDF. No word on casualty counts. 

 

 

 

From what you posted, how do you get that lsrael is responsible for that?

[bolverk 29486]

10 minutes ago, leaf said:

From what you posted, how do you get that lsrael is responsible for that?

Here's the story:

Gazans attempting to return to homes in north say Israeli troops fired on them.

Displaced Palestinians passing through the central Gaza Strip as they try to return to northern Gaza on Sunday.  Ramadan Abed/Reuters

As thousands of displaced Palestinians attempted to return to their homes in northern Gaza on Sunday, Israeli troops fired at the crowd, forcing people to turn back in panic, according to an emergency worker and two people who tried to make the journey.

Wafa, the Palestinian Authority’s official news agency, reported that five people were killed and 23 wounded by Israeli gunfire and artillery in the incident on Al-Rashid Street south of Gaza City as a crowd of Gazans headed north to their homes.

The circumstances of the deaths could not be confirmed independently, and the Israeli military did not immediately respond to questions about whether its forces opened fire on Palestinian civilians trying to cross to northern Gaza.

For months, the Israeli military has barred Palestinians who have been displaced by the war in Gaza from returning to their homes in northern Gaza. It has become a sticking point in negotiations between Israel and Hamas.

It was not clear why some Palestinians believed that Israel would not block them from returning on Sunday. But they were making the journey on a day when Iran had launched hundreds of drones and missiles at Israel.

More than 33,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched its assault there in October, according to Gaza’s Ministry of Health. The assault occurred in response to the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel that killed some 1,200 people.

On Sunday morning Jamila Ibrahim, 39, said that she began hearing of some Palestinians who left early and managed to get back to the north. She later spoke with friends who were able to return north. But there were very few.

Around 10:30 a.m. she and her three children — who are between 10 and 17 — set out, joining other people on the journey.

She said there were no official notices from the Israel military, which has occupied large parts of Gaza after it launched a ground invasion, that residents would be allowed to return to their homes. It was just based on word of mouth, as well as people seeing others leaving and being encouraged to join the trek home, she said.

“Some people were scared, they didn’t know what fate they were heading to, they didn’t know what would happen,” she said. “Some were happy that they were going to return.”

Most people were on foot — carrying what little food they had or their few belongings in bags and luggage — and some paid large sums of money to go by car, trucks or donkey carts, she said. But they all took the same seaside road, heading north toward an Israeli checkpoint that has cut off southern Gaza from the north.

“There was lots of tension, lots of tension among the people, they were scared they could be shot,” she said.

Those who tried to cross north in the middle of the night — around 4 a.m. — managed to make it to the north, she said, based on her conversation with friends who crossed successfully.

But later that morning, by the time she and other displaced Palestinians tried to follow, Israeli forces opened fire on them, she said.

“Around 12:30 the Israelis started shooting,” she said.

Mazen Al-Harazeen, a first responder in Gaza, said Israeli forces fired weapons and he did not know how many had been killed, but he said, “There was shooting and martyrs.”

Early Sunday morning, Avichay Adraee, a spokesman for the Israeli Defense Forces, or I.D.F., wrote on social media that the rumors that the army was allowing residents to return to their homes in the northern Gaza Strip were false.

“The I.D.F. will not allow the return of residents,” he added. “For your safety, do not approach the forces operating there.”

Nearly 2 million Gazans have been displaced by the war between Hamas and Israel, now in its sixth month. One of their biggest concerns is when and if they will be allowed to return to their homes, or whether they will be permanently displaced, as previous generations were.

Around 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled their homes in 1947 and 1948 during the wars surrounding Israel’s establishment as a state.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

22 minutes ago, leaf said:

From what you posted, how do you get that lsrael is responsible for that?

are we saying it was Hamas , who basically have been eviscerated in the north, bombing their own people to make Israel look bad ?  Or am i seeing too much conspiracy theory in that? 

wow, look at the crush of humanity on that street (from the other poster).  I'm all for permanently migrating these folks to a better life in the west. They deserve it, and Israel would be overjoyed to get rid of 2 million Arabs. It's very possible politically because Israel/US is calling the shots (pun). 

Edited April 15 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[Parliament 14156]

Moving them to the west how would you sort the terrorists out of the civilians?

[MagicSoccerSpray 1731]

6 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

I'm all for permanently migrating these folks to a better life in the west.

 

This is incredibly naive.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

3 hours ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

 

This is incredibly naive.

not at all, see 124000 Afghans.  Israel itself airlifted thousands of Ethiopian Jews and obviously there's the example of millions of Soviet Jews going to Israel.

Edited April 15 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[MagicSoccerSpray 1731]

6 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

not at all, see 124000 Afghans.  Israel itself airlifted thousands of Ethiopian Jews and obviously there's the example of millions of Soviet Jews going to Israel.

 

Not that it has, that it should.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

10 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

 

Not that it has, that it should.

English please. 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1731]

That the immigration should happen. It would be a mistake to import those folks. A big one.

[blacklab 11885]

This thread is for news not your hot takes on solving all the worlds problems.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

and this won't get much attention but here it is 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-settlers-kill-two-palestinians-occupied-west-bank-mayor-says-2024-04-15/

Israeli settlers kill two Palestinians in occupied West Bank, mayor says

By Reuters

April 15, 20242:03 PM CDTUpdated 2 hours ago

 

 

 

CAIRO, April 15 (Reuters) - Israeli settlers killed two Palestinians on Monday in the occupied West Bank province of Nablus, Salah Bani Jaber, the mayor of Aqraba, told Reuters.

"About 50 settlers, a large number of them armed, attacked the residents of Khirbet al-Tawil village east of Aqraba in the province of Nablus. They opened fire on the youth and this led to the death of two of the youth and the injury of others,” the mayor said.

Edited April 15 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[956 Worldwide 34518]

1 hour ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

and this won't get much attention but here it is 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-settlers-kill-two-palestinians-occupied-west-bank-mayor-says-2024-04-15/

Israeli settlers kill two Palestinians in occupied West Bank, mayor says

By Reuters

April 15, 20242:03 PM CDTUpdated 2 hours ago

 

 

 

CAIRO, April 15 (Reuters) - Israeli settlers killed two Palestinians on Monday in the occupied West Bank province of Nablus, Salah Bani Jaber, the mayor of Aqraba, told Reuters.

"About 50 settlers, a large number of them armed, attacked the residents of Khirbet al-Tawil village east of Aqraba in the province of Nablus. They opened fire on the youth and this led to the death of two of the youth and the injury of others,” the mayor said.

This violence was is response to the murder of a 14 year old Jewish shepherd. As with most things, the finger-pointing will go back to pre-1948.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/13/world-news/discovery-of-israeli-teens-body-sparks-wave-violent-settler-attacks-in-west-bank/amp/ 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

28 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This violence was is response to the murder of a 14 year old Jewish shepherd. As with most things, the finger-pointing will go back to pre-1948.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/13/world-news/discovery-of-israeli-teens-body-sparks-wave-violent-settler-attacks-in-west-bank/amp/ 

settlers have been killing Arabs for years, they want it all, witness this Queen Settler 

IDF almost always protects these nutjobs when they go on mob attacks against the Arabs 

 

Edited April 15 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[956 Worldwide 34518]

I’m sure comparing “who has the most violent maximalist rhetoric” is a productive line of discussion. 

[Brisketexan 104787]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m sure comparing “who has the most violent maximalist rhetoric” is a productive line of discussion. 

Well, it's productive in one sense: it lays bare the utter hopelessness of the situation.  ESPECIALLY when the violent maximalists, or folks pretty closely adjacent, are fundamentally in charge of policy for each "side."

"You should all die and be driven from the land!"

"No...YOU should all die and be driven from the land!"

Not much reason for hope there.  People openly pushing for genocide are driving the bus for both sides.  What that tells us that "somebody eventually succeeding in genocide/total ethnic cleansing" is a much more likely option than "some sort of peaceful co-existence" ever will be.  Reality in this case is a bitter pill to swallow, but that doesn't make it any less real.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m sure comparing “who has the most violent maximalist rhetoric” is a productive line of discussion. 

except one side has all the power to do as it pleases. 

[ChickenSandwich 9809]

And one side still has American hostages. 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

14 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

And one side still has American hostages. 

In the West Bank? Interesting.