Israel-Hamas war thread

[Armybrat 41,412]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Nobody has voted for Hamas since 2006.

So, where was the Palestinian disapproval of 10/7?

What was the consensus reaction from their citizens, outrage or celebration?

[Armybrat 41,412]

But I really do apologize if I offended anyone here and will withdraw and let y’all carry on without any comments from this old cunt.

 

[wildcat09 29,586]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

So, where was the Palestinian disapproval of 10/7?

What was the consensus reaction from their citizens, outrage or celebration?

I don't know what degree of support vs opposition there was in the days immediately after, but I'm sure it was mixed and based on plenty of inaccurate information, because that's how things like that work everywhere. I'm sure plenty of Palestinians felt the murder of Israeli civilians was justified, just as many here have since felt that the murder of Palestinian civilians is justified. 

[royiv 9,794]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

But I really do apologize if I offended anyone here and will withdraw and let y’all carry on without any comments from this old cunt.

 

It would be better if you would take down your incredibly dumb Facebook meme. Discussion is welcome and it’s clear now that you can engage with your opinions, but dumb Facebook memes are not.

[mdmost 44,061]

1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

But I really do apologize if I offended anyone here and will withdraw and let y’all carry on without any comments from this old cunt.

 

I apologize for calling you an old cunt. 

[Herbie Hancock 7,491]

You fucks acting like adults in here?? Wtf this ain’t what I signed up for

[mdmost 44,061]

Just now, Herbie Hancock said:

You fucks acting like adults in here?? Wtf this ain’t what I signed up for

Shut up, Herbie Hancunt

[wildcat09 29,586]

Edited April 26 by wildcat09

[Armybrat 41,412]

6 minutes ago, royiv said:

It would be better if you would take down your incredibly dumb Facebook meme. Discussion is welcome and it’s clear now that you can engage with your opinions, but dumb Facebook memes are not.

Since it offends you, I would if I could. A mod will have to delete it.

[Herbie Hancock 7,491]

Shut up, Herbie Hancunt

That’s more like it.

[DDD Dad 14,654]

3 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Since it offends you, I would if I could. A mod will have to delete it.

You should still be able to edit your post to delete the picture.

[royiv 9,794]

13 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

So, where was the Palestinian disapproval of 10/7?

What was the consensus reaction from their citizens, outrage or celebration?

And therein lies a huge part of the problem. Israel’s official policies towards the Palestinian people residing in Gaza has been one of oppressing the general population. When that happens, people see Israel as an oppressor and Hamas can seize upon that and effectively use propaganda to influence Gazans. People that were pretty normal people get radicalized because they think Hamas will solve their problems when, in reality, we know that not to be the case.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that invites and incites violence and by inciting violence on 10/7, invited violence upon Gazans. Now Gazans have been enduring bombs raining down on their heads, being forced from their homes, being denied food and healthcare for more than 6 months. Do you think Gazans are looking around and thinking “Praise Allah, Israel is here to save us?” Of course not, it just further radicalizes the populace and around and around we go.
Continuing to do the same shit on repeat doesn’t and will never work. Continuing with a failed policy only leads to death and suffering on both sides.

[Armybrat 41,412]

Looks like a job for a mod.

 

[YGIFS 19,458]

52 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Nobody has voted for Hamas since 2006.

Because they were too busy voting for Gary Johnson?  

[DDD Dad 14,654]

28 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Looks like a job for a mod.

 

I reported your post and asked for help for you.  However, you might want to edit your most recent post to remove the photo you quoted.

Mods, feel free to delete this and other related posts to clean up the thread.

Edited April 26 by DDD Dad

[Captainant 28,559]

Hahaha I kind of love that in his apology, he ends up posting the picture again. Never change @Armybrat. We may call you names and shit on you, but goddamnit your unintentional hilarity always delivers

[Armybrat 41,412]

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I reported your post and asked for help for you.  However, you might want to edit your most recent post to remove the photo you quoted.

Mods, feel free to delete this and other related posts to clean up the thread.

Same for that one too.

Sorry I ever posted here.

[Grande Mart 533]

6 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Heck of a post.

I was a wee bit shitfaced

[MagicSoccerSpray 1,736]

14 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Nobody has voted for Hamas since 2006.

 

That's the last time anybody got to vote. One man, one vote, one time.

[bolverk 30,338]

According to Doctors without Borders: "The pattern of attacks is either intentional or indicative of reckless incompetence."

Using visual evidence and internal communications, The Times looked at six aid groups whose operations or shelters came under Israeli fire despite using the Israel Defense Forces’ deconfliction system to notify the military of their locations.

These humanitarian organizations have a direct line to the I.D.F. and come from Western countries, including Israel’s strongest allies. Some of the locations struck had been clearly marked or located in a special humanitarian zone that Israel said was safe for civilians.

The pattern indicates that in Israel’s battle against Hamas, not even the places with every available avenue of protection are safe from I.D.F. strikes.

 

Edited April 27 by bolverk

[Brisketexan 106,917]

According to Doctors without Borders: "The pattern of attacks is either intentional or indicative of reckless incompetence."

Using visual evidence and internal communications, The Times looked at six aid groups whose operations or shelters came under Israeli fire despite using the Israel Defense Forces’ deconfliction system to notify the military of their locations.

These humanitarian organizations have a direct line to the I.D.F. and come from Western countries, including Israel’s strongest allies. Some of the locations struck had been clearly marked or located in a special humanitarian zone that Israel said was safe for civilians.

The pattern indicates that in Israel’s battle against Hamas, not even the places with every available avenue of protection are safe from I.D.F. strikes.

 

This.
I understand and accept that there will be civilian casualties in most wars. It is the nature of war.
But that does not excuse or allow for either 1) intentional targeting of civilians, or 2) reckless disregard of the risk to civilians. And seeing Israel’s conduct and the results of same - AND considering the statements of numerous Israeli officials SAYING that eliminating civilians is their goal - one of those two options is the only rational conclusion. Which makes Israel a state that is committing war crimes.
A state can be justified in taking military action to defend itself: Israel is.
A state can end up killing civilians incidental to its military action: Israel has.
A state CANNOT murder civilians on purpose or indiscriminately: Israel has.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

This.
I understand and accept that there will be civilian casualties in most wars. It is the nature of war.
But that does not excuse or allow for either 1) intentional targeting of civilians, or 2) reckless disregard of the risk to civilians. And seeing Israel’s conduct and the results of same - AND considering the statements of numerous Israeli officials SAYING that eliminating civilians is their goal - one of those two options is the only rational conclusion. Which makes Israel a state that is committing war crimes.
A state can be justified in taking military action to defend itself: Israel is.
A state can end up killing civilians incidental to its military action: Israel has.
A state CANNOT murder civilians on purpose or indiscriminately: Israel has.

also add purposeful starvation/withhold humanitarian aid to the CANNOT

[Brian Fantana 6,868]

Holy fuck who let grandpa out

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

IDF is going into Rafah within the next 10 days, been bombing around the edges to gauge US reaction. It's on! 

Probably another 15,000 will die shortly. 

34,000 dead confirmed, another 13,000 missing, witnesses report the smell of corpses all over.  At the end, 70,000 dead meaning 1 of every 30 Gazans killed. 

[leaf 718]

1 minute ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

IDF is going into Rafah within the next 10 days, been bombing around the edges to gauge US reaction. It's on! 

Probably another 15,000 will die shortly. 

34,000 dead confirmed, another 13,000 missing, witnesses report the smell of corpses all over.  At the end, 70,000 dead meaning 1 of every 30 Gazans killed. 

Legit question.  Are there combatants included in the 34000 dead? 

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

I thought it was above 40k.

IDF AI is targeting any fighting age male including teenagers, and most likely including them in their Hamas killed. Also, anyone working for the Hamas government is included. So don't be a garbage man.

 

This article hedges about halfway though, but will suffice for knowledge of the programs.

https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2024/hss/gaza-war-israel-using-ai-to-identify-human-targets-raising-fears-that-innocents-are-being-caught-in-the-net.html

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

7 minutes ago, leaf said:

Legit question.  Are there combatants included in the 34000 dead? 

yes, about 7,000 - 10,000 Hamas fighters killed. IDF tends to bloat the numbers, US Intel is always less.  The Israeli propaganda will say they were all hiding, but why blow up an entire building killing 50-100 civilians to get 1 low level guy? In fact, IDF troops are on the ground just minutes away, so why not go in the same way Osama Bin Laden was taken? the US Navy could easily have blown up that house, but his entire family survived.     

edit, yes - Israel include any Hamas civil workers and policemen in the body count. US does not.

Edited April 28 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[bolverk 30,338]

Israeli Officials Believe I.C.C. Is Preparing Arrest Warrants Over War
The officials said they believed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israelis could be charged, and that the court was also considering warrants for Hamas leaders.

Israeli officials increasingly believe that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants for senior government officials on charges related to the conflict with Hamas, according to five Israeli and foreign officials.

The Israeli and foreign officials also believe the court is weighing arrest warrants for leaders from Hamas.

If the court proceeds, the Israeli officials could potentially be accused of preventing the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and pursuing an excessively harsh response to the Hamas-led Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, according to two of the five officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the matter.

The Israeli officials, who are worried about the potential fallout from such a case, said they believe that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is among those who might be named in a warrant. It is not clear who might be charged from Hamas or what crimes would be cited.

The Israeli officials did not disclose the nature of the information that led them to be concerned about potential I.C.C. action, and the court did not comment on the matter.

Arrest warrants from the court would probably be seen in much of the world as a humbling moral rebuke, particularly to Israel, which for months has faced international backlash over its conduct in Gaza, including from President Biden, who called it “over the top.”

It could also affect Israel’s policies as the country presses its military campaign against Hamas. One of the Israeli officials said that the possibility of the court issuing arrest warrants had informed Israeli decision-making in recent weeks.

The Israeli and foreign officials said they didn’t know what stage the process was in.  Any warrants would require approval from a panel of judges and would not necessarily result in a trial or even the targets’ immediate arrest.

Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, has previously confirmed that his team is investigating incidents during the war, but his office declined to comment for this article, saying that it does not “respond to speculation in media reports.”

Mr. Netanyahu’s office also would not comment, but on Friday the prime minister said on social media that any intervention by the I.C.C. “would set a dangerous precedent that threatens the soldiers and officials of all democracies fighting savage terrorism and wanton aggression.”

Mr. Netanyahu did not explain what prompted his statement, though he may have been responding to speculation about the arrest warrants in the Israeli press.

He also said: “Under my leadership, Israel will never accept any attempt by the ICC to undermine its inherent right of self-defense. The threat to seize the soldiers and officials of the Middle East’s only democracy and the world’s only Jewish state is outrageous. We will not bow to it.”

Based in The Hague, the I.C.C. is the world’s only permanent international court with the power to prosecute individuals accused of war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity. The court has no police force of its own. Instead, it relies on its 124 members, which include most European countries but not Israel or the United States, to arrest those named in warrants. It cannot try defendants in absentia.

But warrants from the court can pose obstacles to travel for officials named in them.

The Hamas-led raid last October led to the killing of roughly 1,200 people in Israel and the abductions of some 250 others, according to Israeli officials. The subsequent war in Gaza, including heavy Israeli bombardment, has killed more than 34,000 people, according to Gazan officials, caused widespread damage to housing and infrastructure, and brought the territory to the brink of famine.

The Israeli assault in Gaza has led the International Court of Justice, a separate court in The Hague, to hear accusations of genocide against the Israeli state and has spurred a wave of protests on college campuses in the United States.

If the I.C.C. does issue arrest warrants, they would come with deep stigmatization, placing those named in them in the same category as foreign leaders like Omar al-Bashir, the deposed president of Sudan, and Vladimir V. Putin, the Russian president, who was the subject of a warrant last year tied to his war against Ukraine.

The I.C.C.’s focus on individuals rather than states differentiates it from the International Court of Justice, which settles disputes between states.

The I.C.C. judges have ruled that the court has jurisdiction over Gaza and the West Bank because the Palestinians have joined the court as the State of Palestine.

Mr. Khan has said that his team will be investigating incidents that have occurred since Oct. 7 and that he will be “impartially looking at the evidence and vindicating the rights of victims whether they are in Israel or Palestine.”

Mr. Khan’s office has also been investigating allegations of war crimes committed during the 2014 war between Israel and Hamas; one of the officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity believes the new arrest warrants would be an extension of that investigation.

Hamas and the Israeli military did not respond to requests for comment. The office of Yoav Gallant, the Israeli defense minister, declined to comment.

In general, Israeli officials say that they fight according to the laws of war and that they take significant steps to protect civilians, accusing Hamas of hiding inside civilian areas and forcing Israel to pursue them there. Hamas has denied committing atrocities on Oct. 7, saying — despite video evidence to the contrary — that its fighters tried to avoid harming civilians.

[utee94 16,090]

On 4/26/2024 at 2:48 PM, Armybrat said:

Sorry I ever posted here.

Definite surly motto material.

Edited April 29 by utee94

[BabaYaga 15,625]

21 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

yes, about 7,000 - 10,000 Hamas fighters killed. IDF tends to bloat the numbers, US Intel is always less.  The Israeli propaganda will say they were all hiding, but why blow up an entire building killing 50-100 civilians to get 1 low level guy? In fact, IDF troops are on the ground just minutes away, so why not go in the same way Osama Bin Laden was taken? the US Navy could easily have blown up that house, but his entire family survived.     

edit, yes - Israel include any Hamas civil workers and policemen in the body count. US does not.

IDF has stated around 13K Hamas fighters killed.  Hamas says 32K civilians killed.  Both are probably inflated.

As for an airstrike vs a raid - OBL was in a compound and never left.  It was a static target.  They didn't drop a JDAM on it because it was in Pakistan.  We were not supposed to be in there or cross the border.  That's how he escaped the first time at the battle of Tora Bora.  If you watch the movie or read the book, that was the reason for the modified, stealth helicopters.  The other big reason was DNA confirmation was needed.  

This is more akin to the Battle of Fallujah (1 & 2) where the US basically leveled the entire city and inflicted tens of thousands of civilian casualties.  Neither the US or Israel did/is doing even a halfway decent job of distinguishing friend from foe and in both cases soldiers embed themselves extremely well in populated areas.  It's clumsy and crude and if you go house by house, can take months if not years to clear a city.  I think it was Chris Kyle talking about how the Marines used tanks at point blank range on buildings.  If they were getting shot at, regardless of who was in there, that building was gone.

Every urban battle turns the city into rubble and grinds the civilians into dust.  Look at what's happening in Ukraine now,  Russia can't ferret them out, so they just fuck it and level everything.  The Balkans, Hue, Stalingrad.  More recently Mosul.  Historically the ratio of civilian casualties to soldiers is 9:1.  That's not a justification, just that urban conflict when a portion of the population won't evacuate is a no-win situation for everyone.  With all the tunnels, drones won't really work.  

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

48 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

IDF has stated around 13K Hamas fighters killed.  Hamas says 32K civilians killed.  Both are probably inflated.

As for an airstrike vs a raid - OBL was in a compound and never left.  It was a static target.  They didn't drop a JDAM on it because it was in Pakistan.  We were not supposed to be in there or cross the border.  That's how he escaped the first time at the battle of Tora Bora.  If you watch the movie or read the book, that was the reason for the modified, stealth helicopters.  The other big reason was DNA confirmation was needed.  

This is more akin to the Battle of Fallujah (1 & 2) where the US basically leveled the entire city and inflicted tens of thousands of civilian casualties.  Neither the US or Israel did/is doing even a halfway decent job of distinguishing friend from foe and in both cases soldiers embed themselves extremely well in populated areas.  It's clumsy and crude and if you go house by house, can take months if not years to clear a city.  I think it was Chris Kyle talking about how the Marines used tanks at point blank range on buildings.  If they were getting shot at, regardless of who was in there, that building was gone.

Every urban battle turns the city into rubble and grinds the civilians into dust.  Look at what's happening in Ukraine now,  Russia can't ferret them out, so they just fuck it and level everything.  The Balkans, Hue, Stalingrad.  More recently Mosul.  Historically the ratio of civilian casualties to soldiers is 9:1.  That's not a justification, just that urban conflict when a portion of the population won't evacuate is a no-win situation for everyone.  With all the tunnels, drones won't really work.  

the 32k , now 34k figure, is certainly an underestimate, only the known bodies are counted. 

Thousands of Gazans were killed, sometimes 1000 a day in the first few days even before IDF troops were even on the ground. Meaning self defense from being shot at is not an issue.  Besides, Israel has for years bombed the entire building to get 1 guy, even bombing entire streets murdering 15-20 to get someone in a car. 

The US killed hundreds of Pakistanis by airstrikes on Pakistani soil, so that wasn't an excuse to avoid a big bomb on Bin Laden. 

Edited April 29 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[BabaYaga 15,625]

2 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

the 32k , now 34k figure, is certainly an underestimate, only the known bodies are counted. 

Thousands of Gazans were killed, sometimes 1000 a day in the first few days even before IDF troops were even on the ground.

The US killed hundreds of Pakistanis by airstrikes on Pakistani soil, so that wasn't an excuse to avoid a big bomb on Bin Laden. 

No, I get it - there is little attention given to minimizing civilian casualties in urban combat.  Hamas and the IDF know this.  If Cartels invaded from Tijuana into SD and did what Hamas did, we'd nuke TJ from fucking orbit.  There's no moral high ground here.  There are no "proportional" response arguments that were entertained.  Hamas knew the IDF would lose their shit.  Just like OBL knew the US would lose their shit.  Israel also knew that if they keep shitting on the Gaza strip this shit is very much a probable outcome.  Israel isn't the good guy here, but they are allowing themselves to get pulled offsides and embroiled in the exact fight Hamas wants.  Israel has the tier 1 & 2 assets and decades with of urban fighting experience to do this in a more surgical way, they didn't fucking want to....and now it's too late.  History has too many examples illustrating that once you level a city, the advantage shifts to the defenders.

As for OBL.  They wanted a scalp and got it.  You could argue they needed DNA confirmation, they also probably wanted the site intact.  They left with a shit ton of hard drives, cell phones, written material, etc.  

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No, I get it - there is little attention given to minimizing civilian casualties in urban combat.  Hamas and the IDF know this.  If Cartels invaded from Tijuana into SD and did what Hamas did, we'd nuke TJ from fucking orbit.  There's no moral high ground here.  There are no "proportional" response arguments that were entertained.  Hamas knew the IDF would lose their shit.  Just like OBL knew the US would lose their shit.  Israel also knew that if they keep shitting on the Gaza strip this shit is very much a probable outcome.  Israel isn't the good guy here, but they are allowing themselves to get pulled offsides and embroiled in the exact fight Hamas wants.  Israel has the tier 1 & 2 assets and decades with of urban fighting experience to do this in a more surgical way, they didn't fucking want to....and now it's too late.  History has too many examples illustrating that once you level a city, the advantage shifts to the defenders.

As for OBL.  They wanted a scalp and got it.  You could argue they needed DNA confirmation, they also probably wanted the site intact.  They left with a shit ton of hard drives, cell phones, written material, etc.  

the US military killed over 400,000 civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan from 1991 - 2022. I didn't realize the number was that high, and probably higher, close to 1 million Iraqis alone if we believe various human rights organizations.  Even then, I don't think the US went WW2 mode in Berlin/Tokyo randomly wiping out massive swaths of residential areas.  War ethics should conform with the modern weaponry but Israel has purposely destroyed almost all infrastructure, every hospital, all 12 universities rubble.  I think we agree IDF could have avoided much of the civilian death toll.

[BabaYaga 15,625]

2 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

the US military killed over 400,000 civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan from 1991 - 2022. I didn't realize the number was that high, and probably higher, close to 1 million Iraqis alone if we believe various human rights organizations.  Even then, I don't think the US went WW2 mode in Berlin/Tokyo randomly wiping out massive swaths of residential areas.  War ethics should conform with the modern weaponry but Israel has purposely destroyed almost all infrastructure, every hospital, all 12 universities rubble.  I think we agree IDF could have avoided much of the civilian death toll.

Yeah, I'd heard it was close to a million.  Afghanistan had/has little infrastructure to destroy, but we did destroy hundreds of poppy fields, but in Iraq we leveled close to 60% of all the buildings in Fallujah and just fucking wrecked Baghdad (including the use of cluster bombs - hardly precise)

As for Israel, I'd be curious (which we'll never know) what their intel reports were?  Were there JTACs on the ground?  Was Hamas embedded in those areas?  Apparently that happened all the time in Iraq (according to us anyway).  I tend to think Hamas is using their tried/true tactics of embedding.....but we all know this.  The IDF got pulled into a fight they can't win without turning the entire city to rubble and now they are stuck.  They fucked around and let this come to a boil, and now they are fighting a war they can't win - just like we were in the ME.  

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yeah, I'd heard it was close to a million.  Afghanistan had/has little infrastructure to destroy, but we did destroy hundreds of poppy fields, but in Iraq we leveled close to 60% of all the buildings in Fallujah and just fucking wrecked Baghdad (including the use of cluster bombs - hardly precise)

As for Israel, I'd be curious (which we'll never know) what their intel reports were?  Were there JTACs on the ground?  Was Hamas embedded in those areas?  Apparently that happened all the time in Iraq (according to us anyway).  I tend to think Hamas is using their tried/true tactics of embedding.....but we all know this.  The IDF got pulled into a fight they can't win without turning the entire city to rubble and now they are stuck.  They fucked around and let this come to a boil, and now they are fighting a war they can't win - just like we were in the ME.  

I don't think the US wrecked Baghdad, even the immediate aftermath of the bombing live show broadcast worldwide, reporters noted limited damage.  For Baghdad alone, the US was gentle in comparison to Israel.  We know IDF was using AI to find every single low level Hamas operative, killing 20-100 people in the building for 1 guy who wasn't even weaponized at the time. 

IIRC Falujah had 80% of civilians evacuated to the countryside before the US moved in. 

[BabaYaga 15,625]

6 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

I don't think the US wrecked Baghdad, even the immediate aftermath of the bombing live show broadcast worldwide, reporters noted limited damage.  For Baghdad alone, the US was gentle in comparison to Israel.  We know IDF was using AI to find every single low level Hamas operative, killing 20-100 people in the building for 1 guy who wasn't even weaponized at the time. 

IIRC Falujah had 80% of civilians evacuated to the countryside before the US moved in. 

Baghdad offensive capabilities & infrastructure were targeted - electricity, sanitation, water, communications, etc. in additional to military and dual-use sites.  

As for evacuations, I read that 85% of civilians were evacuated in Gaza

[InkaUtexas 26,902]

to where? The are still in Gaza. Just pushed south.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Baghdad offensive capabilities & infrastructure were targeted - electricity, sanitation, water, communications, etc. in additional to military and dual-use sites.  

As for evacuations, I read that 85% of civilians were evacuated in Gaza

Gazans were not evacuated, or did not evacuate, during the prime killing days, the first 2 weeks.  I'll disagree with the extent of damage to Baghdad compared to Gaza.  Morally though, the US had no business being there in the first place, but that's another thread.  Baghdad civilians were able to conduct normal lives for the most part. 

[BabaYaga 15,625]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

to where? The are still in Gaza. Just pushed south.

Yeah, that's the rub.  According to Israel, which take that for what it's worth, 85% of the people were "shifted" away from the areas of attack.  Even if accurate, still leaves a ton of people on the X.  

 

4 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

I'll disagree with the extent of damage to Baghdad compared to Gaza.  Morally though, the US had no business being there in the first place, but that's another thread.  Baghdad civilians were able to conduct normal lives for t

All true.  I read something like 25K civilian casualties in Baghdad?  Less, but not great Bob.  I'd compare Fallujah to Gaza, not Baghdad

[CHIEF 5,228]

Sounds like the ball is Hamas' court. Release hostages for a ceasefire. If they reject it Rafah gets invaded.

CHIEF

[BabaYaga 15,625]

Why would they?  All the international pressure and condemnation is on Israel.  Each side is fucking the civilians.  They have no representation in the region.  Hamas uses them as human shields, and Israel doesn't fucking care.  Those that can/did evacuate, again - to where?  A camp?  You return to a house of rubble and no hope?  

If there is a ceasefire - then what?  Back to BAU.  The whole thing is untenable and we all know it.  People talk about "privilege's" - it's not being fucking born in Gaza.  Or maybe a Cobalt mine in Africa.  

[BabaYaga 15,625]

20 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Sounds like the ball is Hamas' court. Release hostages for a ceasefire. If they reject it Rafah gets invaded.

CHIEF

Wait, so Saudi Arabia is hosting talks that include the international condemnation of US weapons being used outside of allowed or acceptable practices?  Saudi Arabia?  Who's human rights in Yemen over the last 8 years have seen tens of thousands killed and a Holodomor-esq mass starvation of millions more.....using US weapons.  Get fucked Saudi Arabia

Edited April 29 by BabaYaga

[CHIEF 5,228]

 I think Israel offered feeling that Hamas is stupid enough to reject it. If they do reject it, Israel will try to gain sympathy and lessen criticism of their actions. If Hamas doesn't care about their civilians and any humanitarian aid, why should we.

CHIEF 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

that's a really low civilian death toll in the Fallujah 2nd battle .  Obviously most of the civilians were gone but still.  Basic take on this comparison to Gaza is the IDF was specifically vindictive and bloodthirsty regarding civilians than allied forces in Iraq.  The US did not stop humanitarian aid to civilians AFAIK, that one thing is a giveway about the Israelis.

U.S. military officials estimated that 70–90% of the 300,000 civilians in the city fled before the attack, leaving 30,000 to 90,000 civilians still in the city.^[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

Civilian casualties:
581–670 killed (Iraq Body Count)^[16]
800 killed (Red Cross)^[17]

[BabaYaga 15,625]

9 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

that's a really low civilian death toll in the Fallujah 2nd battle .  Obviously most of the civilians were gone but still.  Basic take on this comparison to Gaza is the IDF was specifically vindictive and bloodthirsty regarding civilians than allied forces in Iraq.  The US did not stop humanitarian aid to civilians AFAIK, that one thing is a giveway about the Israelis.

U.S. military officials estimated that 70–90% of the 300,000 civilians in the city fled before the attack, leaving 30,000 to 90,000 civilians still in the city.^[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

Civilian casualties:
581–670 killed (Iraq Body Count)^[16]
800 killed (Red Cross)^[17]

100%, Gaza is exponentially worse.  All three battles for Fallujah are just fairly recent examples of even when you try and mitigate as many casualties as you can, there are still so many impacted. In Fallujah most of the Mosques had weapons in them, so they got leveled.  The IDF again is playing the wrong game.  Hamas is too well integrated with the civilians who they know the IDF will target, so don't play into their hands.  They had the chance to keep most of the city intact, go in and use their operators and root Hamas out.  It would have resulted in significant casualties on both sides, but better protected the civilians - something they could have lauded to the international community that even in the face of spilled Israeli blood, they will protect Palestine people as best they can and spill even more military blood proving this.  But they went full Dick Cheney and are proper fucked now

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

Israel is simply hitting spots where there is no Hamas weapons and firing has almost 100% stopped.  Today, why did these 3 families have to be murdered ?

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/04/29/israeli-strikes-rafah-palestinians-war

Israeli airstrikes on the southern Gaza city of Rafah have killed at least 22 people, including six women and five children, Palestinian health officials say. One of the children killed in the strikes overnight into Monday was just 5 days old.

The overnight strikes hit three family homes. The first killed 11 people, including four siblings aged 9 to 27, according to records at the Abu Yousef al-Najjar Hospital, where the bodies were taken. The second strike killed eight people, including a 33-year-old father and his 5-day-old boy, according to hospital records. The third strike killed three siblings, aged 23, 19 and 12. An Associated Press reporter saw the bodies at the hospital.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/29/middleeast/israeli-airstrike-rafah-gaza-intl/index.html

People are seen crouching over the body bags, with some caressing their loved one’s lifeless bodies. At least one baby’s head can be seen sticking out of a bag, as the woman beside it shouts: “My whole family has perished.”

 

People are seen crouching over the body bags, with some caressing their loved one’s lifeless bodies. At least one baby’s head can be seen sticking out of a bag, as the woman beside it shouts: “My whole family has perished.”

 

The baby’s uncle, Mahmoud Abu Taha, was carrying the 1-year-old’s lifeless body while talking to the camera, saying his parents had tried having children for 10 years before he was born.

“We were sitting in our homes, not doing anything. It was unexpected when they struck the house. Everyone was asleep in their beds… most of the people that were killed were displaced… they were women and children,” he said.

Lifting the baby boy’s body to the camera, Mahmoud Abu Taha cries out, “this is who they are targeting. This is their objective. This is the generation they’re looking for. This is the safe Rafah they talk about.”

In response to a CNN request for comment regarding the Rafah strike on Monday, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said in a statement that its fighter jets “struck terror targets where terrorists were operating within a civilian area in southern Gaza.”

but none of the dead were terror targets, batshit psychopathic Israel

Edited April 30 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[lucious leftfoot 126]

 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1,549]

2 minutes ago, lucious leftfoot said:

 

bring them all 

[Welshy 914]

1 hour ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

bring them all 

I hope the Canadians feel the same way when I apply for asylum. 

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:36 PM, CHIEF said:

 I think Israel offered feeling that Hamas is stupid enough to reject it. If they do reject it, Israel will try to gain sympathy and lessen criticism of their actions. If Hamas doesn't care about their civilians and any humanitarian aid, why should we.

CHIEF 

I believe the offer was only a 40 day seize fire, but not allowed to return to Northern Gaza