Israel-Hamas war thread

[GabrielsHorn 2142]

 

[statsman 5356]

I feel bad for the innocent and uninvolved Gaza residents that will have to suffer without resources (food, water, energy, medicine) while this all plays out. 
 
I feel even more bad for the innocent hostages and captives, in more urgent need of immediate care, under constant threat of torture and death. 
 
I can see how a truce benefits the former. I don’t see how it benefits the latter. 

[troph 24034]

I came over to this thread all excited hoping I could get learned while drinking morning coffee like a generally unaffected American much like when I read the last 2-3 pages of the Ukraine thread. I am sad. 

[Ted Lange 15935]

 

[Bevo 13442]

17 minutes ago, GabrielsHorn said:

 

 

How do you detonate those things without having to send soldiers into the bunkers?

[troph 24034]

7 hours ago, MisterP said:

Anybody ever read this? My buddy is getting a masters in international relations right now and his class was assigned reading this. Two political scientists. Seems to be super critical of Israel, why we have a relationship with Israel, etc., but I am not versed enough to really writing out explanations as to why I think it's bullshit. It almost seems like their solution or answer to the ME is for Israel is to not exist. 

Anyone, feel free to take a quick look and tell me your thoughts. Thanks.

The Israel Lobby.pdf 181.45 kB · 7 downloads

I’m probably on the side of a moderate to strong Israeli supporter - complex but far from idealistic reasons - but I’ll say this without downloading that either - any time the Brits have been involved with drawing lines on a map, shit generally goes bad.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

 

[Aqua Buddha 14280]

21 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

How do you detonate those things without having to send soldiers into the bunkers?

Well, you could set the entire tunnel on fire and either burn or suffocate everyone else.

[babysdaddy 2708]

 

It is a false historical equivalence that the Israeli government = Hamas.  Any rationalization or excuse to this behavior is Hamas propaganda.  

[JesusSweatDuck 17780]

2 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

 

It is a false historical equivalence that the Israeli government = Hamas.  Any rationalization or excuse to this behavior is Hamas propaganda.  

Fucking monsters

[CooterBrown 17762]

Just carpet bomb the entire Gaza Strip and be done with it. 

[babysdaddy 2708]

10 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Ehhh...that could be a lot of things, including meeting with various officials who were seen entering the WH this afternoon.

And that's actually getting lost in the shuffle - if we start seeing a lot more military/state department officials meeting at the WH, start seeing a lot of pizzas delivered late at night to various organizations/campuses around D.C....well, there's already nothing stopping Israel from hitting Iran after this weekend, but the degree of training/competency displayed by Hamas fighters should be concerning the hell out of everyone, and pointing a lot of fingers at Iran/Russia/Wagner.

And I would assume that Iran would be paying close attention to anybody showing up for meetings at the WH (or if WH officials are meeting elsewhere, such as the Pentagon).  We always seemed to make it a point for countries to see that these kinds of meetings were happening in the past, when we could have done it on the down-low through video conferencing, etc.

This whole thing feels really weird, like was said up thread about somebody trying to get something kicked off on a much larger scale.

wrong board

Edited October 10, 2023 by babysdaddy
wrong board

[atomheartbevo 89104]

2 hours ago, Viper said:

Been following this account since it started and I'm not sure he ever sleeps

 

I've been following him since early last year, and it's got to be 2-3 people, but maybe not.

In regard to that info about the USS Gerald Ford showing up:

Quote

Along with the Ford the U.S. is sending the cruiser USS Normandy and destroyers USS Thomas Hudner, USS Ramage, USS Carney, and USS Roosevelt, and the U.S. is augmenting Air Force F-35, F-15, F-16, and A-10 fighter aircraft squadrons in the region. 

“The U.S. maintains ready forces globally to further reinforce this deterrence posture if required,” Austin said in a statement.

Quote

In addition, the Biden administration “will be rapidly providing the Israel Defense Forces with additional equipment and resources, including munitions. The first security assistance will begin moving today and arriving in the coming days,” Austin said.

The Norfolk, Virginia-based carrier strike group already was in the Mediterranean. Last week it was conducting naval exercises with Italy in the Ionian Sea. The carrier is in its first full deployment.

When they say region, I wonder if they mean Syria or Turkey.  Whynotboth.gif

[MissingInAction 24441]

13 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Nothing.  He said BLUE turban

Whew! Nothing to worry about then.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

https://x.com/MeytalinkaVan/status/1711433396545601598?s=20

[JesusSweatDuck 17780]

1 minute ago, Frank Drebin said:

https://x.com/MeytalinkaVan/status/1711433396545601598?s=20

for the embed 

 

[Ted Lange 15935]

 

 

[BabaYaga 15184]

1 minute ago, Frank Drebin said:

https://x.com/MeytalinkaVan/status/1711433396545601598?s=20

JFC, do they just want the entire world to go full scorched earth.  What's the play here?  Any negotiation play they had went out the window

[atomheartbevo 89104]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

JFC, do they just want the entire world to go full scorched earth.  What's the play here? 

That's the million dollar question.  They spent decades getting into a position to be in charge of the Palestinians, to get some kind of "respect" on a nation-state level where they hobnobbed in Moscow and Tehran, to try and say that they are more than just a terrorists.

And then they do this and it will be the end of Hamas as we know it.  All those decades of work just pissed away for the deaths of a thousand Israelis, and the deaths of many more Palestinians when this is done.

If there's a long game here, it's yet to be revealed.

[Woodrow Call 493]

Just saw a report from a woman in Israel stating they raped women at that festival while they were lying next to their dead friends. They beheaded babies. Flying swastikas. 

Israel is now fighting under the black flag.  Hamas will be destroyed to the last man. There won't be any two state solution, because there's not going to be anything remaining to build a second state. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Woodrow Call

[troph 24034]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

JFC, do they just want the entire world to go full scorched earth.  What's the play here?  Any negotiation play they had went out the window

It has to be broader and I think it has to be an attempt to commit the US to a multi theatre war. The players are there - one degree of separation - Russia / Iran / Hamas —> Israel // Israel / US / Ukraine —> Russia (supported by Iran). I think the initial play was Russia / China / Taiwan but China did not want FAFO. That’s all I’ve got. 
 

if true a third theatre isn’t out of the question. This isn’t ready for the movie yet it’s really fucking dicey for the world. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by troph

[Ghost of LL 15288]

9 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Yeah, in the millenia that slice of land has had peace it was enforced by iron and bronze. An enforced peace by Romans, Egyptians, Ottomans and can we count Cyrus?

Don't make a shit if you cut it off at a hundred years or a hundred thousand. 

It had peace because it was peaceful.  Well, I mean, you had the Crusades.  But there wasn't any dispute between Jews and Arabs . . . primarily because there weren't any Jews.

After the Jewish Revolt was put down in 70 CE, there weren't very many Jews left in the Roman province of Palestine.  That's the whole genesis of the Jewish Diaspora--they fled and settled throughout the Roman world.  In Palestine, all that was left was a small Jewish community in and around Jerusalem.  And a whole lot of those who were still there a thousand years later were killed in the massacre at the hands of the Crusaders when they took Jerusalem in 1099.

Jewish resettlement of Palestine didn't start until the Zionist movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Zionism didn't have any real traction before Herzl's publication of Der Judenstaat in 1896 and the founding of the World Zionist Organization the year after.

Between 1882 and 1914, the Jewish population in Palestine increased from 24,000 to 94,000.  It was 450,000 in 1939 (roughly a third of Palestine's population).  

This dispute is a creature of the 20th Century and the Jewish desire to have a homeland.  And I'm not begrudging that.  But the need for a homeland in Palestine arises directly from the fact that they didn't have one there for 2,000 years.

9 hours ago, F250 said:

That's bullshit, there was a Jewish diaspora under the Romans and two thousand years later the Brits decided to establish a Jewish state and migrate European Jews back to Palestine.

That would be like someone flooding Mexico city with Meso-Americans 1700 years from now and establishing a state for the Azetecs while pushing aside all the Mexicans. Then when the Mexicans in the year 3000 push back against the Aztec apartheid state calling it an ancient conflict.

 

That's a good analogy.  I would only add that it's slightly off because there aren't a bunch of Aztecs scattered throughout North and South America who are being discriminated against and routinely pogrom-ed.

Just now, CooterBrown said:

Just carpet bomb the entire Gaza Strip and be done with it. 

. . . because blowing up children is the humane way to do it.

[BabaYaga 15184]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

That's the million dollar question.  They spent decades getting into a position to be in charge of the Palestinians, to get some kind of "respect" on a nation-state level where they hobnobbed in Moscow and Tehran, to try and say that they are more than just a terrorists.

And then they do this and it will be the end of Hamas as we know it.  All those decades of work just pissed away for the deaths of a thousand Israelis, and the deaths of many more Palestinians when this is done.

If there's a long game here, it's yet to be revealed.

This is the opposite of the Tet Offensive - a surprise, coordinated attack across multiple targets.  That offensive helped turn the attitudes of the public.  This attack is galvanizing it.  If I was playing Risk, this would be the first move of a larger, more coordinated conventional attack.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  Full stop.  This is where my concerns lie.

3 minutes ago, troph said:

It has to be broader and I think it has to be an attempt to commit the US to a multi theatre war. The players are there - one degree of separation - Russia / Iran / Hamas —> Israel // Israel / US / Ukraine —> Russia (supported by Iran). I think the initial play was Russia / China / Taiwan but China did not want FAFO. That’s all I’ve got. 
 

if true a third theatre isn’t out of the question. This isn’t ready for the movie yet it’s really fucking dicey for the world. 

Taiwan....

[Aqua Buddha 14280]

11 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

for the embed 

 

All they want is their own country, right?

[troph 24034]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is the opposite of the Tet Offensive - a surprise, coordinated attack across multiple targets.  That offensive helped turn the attitudes of the public.  This attack is galvanizing it.  If I was playing Risk, this would be the first move of a larger, more coordinated conventional attack.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  Full stop.  This is where my concerns lie.

Taiwan....

Looking a little world war 3-ish… and the core axis is nuclear - Russia / China / Iran (just a little bit) and at least one is a real conventional threat (China). So if it continues to escalate we might not have to worry about global warming. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by troph

[NoName 16242]

ultimately, this shows everyone how little Hamas cares and ever cared about the Palestinian people.

this cost the Palestinians billions and billions of aid dollars, irreparably damaged them on the world stage and will lead to the end of Gaza.

and though all of it, there will be very little to no pressure on the Israeli government internationally from other governments because as these videos and stories come out (the rape calls, beheading babies, livestreaming killing people on their own facebook, videos from things like that music festival, etc) who can blame them? it's going to get worse.

[MissingInAction 24441]

The only logical motivation behind this attack that I can think is to pull US resources from Ukraine to support Israel. This whol thing has a Russian/Wagner stink all over it. 

From the tactics to the whole sale methodical slaughter of civilians. Executing people with gardening tools, beheading babies, etc. Sounds alot like Bucha to me.

[troph 24034]

Hamas is a pawn. They are the tip of the spear but they ain’t the throwing arm.

[Surly Bevo 24613]

This could be to get the US to pull resources from Ukraine, but as long as it stays mainly a Hamas/Israel issue how much help does Israel really need? (though I see one of our senators has already fallen for the banana in the tailpipe)  Now if other parties (Iran) join in that might be another matter....so I guess we shall see. 

[Bevo 13442]

25 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It had peace because it was peaceful.  Well, I mean, you had the Crusades.  But there wasn't any dispute between Jews and Arabs . . . primarily because there weren't any Jews.

After the Jewish Revolt was put down in 70 CE, there weren't very many Jews left in the Roman province of Palestine.  That's the whole genesis of the Jewish Diaspora--they fled and settled throughout the Roman world.  In Palestine, all that was left was a small Jewish community in and around Jerusalem.  And a whole lot of those who were still there a thousand years later were killed in the massacre at the hands of the Crusaders when they took Jerusalem in 1099.

Jewish resettlement of Palestine didn't start until the Zionist movement of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Zionism didn't have any real traction before Herzl's publication of Der Judenstaat in 1896 and the founding of the World Zionist Organization the year after.

Between 1882 and 1914, the Jewish population in Palestine increased from 24,000 to 94,000.  It was 450,000 in 1939 (roughly a third of Palestine's population).  

This dispute is a creature of the 20th Century and the Jewish desire to have a homeland.  And I'm not begrudging that.  But the need for a homeland in Palestine arises directly from the fact that they didn't have one there for 2,000 years.

That's a good analogy.  I would only add that it's slightly off because there aren't a bunch of Aztecs scattered throughout North and South America who are being discriminated against and routinely pogrom-ed.

. . . because blowing up children is the humane way to do it.

I'm not going to get into the history other than to say that you are missing many, many facts and the history is pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things. If the native americans started killing innocent women, beheading babies, and raping teens and pre-teens, would we be talking about the artificial lines drawn in 1850s? I think most in the US wouldn't allow it and would probably want to enter the reservations and apprehend those responsible. Now imagine that there are 1.6 million Palestinians living in Israel, 2 million in Gaza, and 3 million in the West Bank and 7 million Jews in Israel. That would be equivalent to an equal number of native americans to americans. What would the US' response be to a large portion of native americans including chiefs killing and raping 40,000 US citizens? I think that it would mean war regardless of the history.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bevo

[Eastwood 4394]

Their main shot caller is rubbing elbows in Qatar and nowhere near in danger. My thought is that he received a boatload of cash to pull this particular trigger, but the question is from whom. But Qatar isn’t as safe as he thinks it is. History has shown that Mossad will find a way. 

[atomheartbevo 89104]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is the opposite of the Tet Offensive - a surprise, coordinated attack across multiple targets.  That offensive helped turn the attitudes of the public.  This attack is galvanizing it.  If I was playing Risk, this would be the first move of a larger, more coordinated conventional attack.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  Full stop.  This is where my concerns lie.

The Tet Offensive is a very solid comparison - it stunned Americans that the North Vietnamese would take them on in large-scale stand-up fights in urban settings and the outer areas.  Prior to that, large-scale stand-up fights usually resulted in the Americans quickly airlifting reinforcements in, as well as massive airpower.  It didn't matter that in the end, for the Americans and South Vietnamese, the Tet Offensive was a tactical victory that killed a fuckton of NVA/VC and really hurt them for a long time. Strategically, it did what the North Vietnamese hoped it would do - shock the American public. 

Here we have Hamas execute what amounts to an invasion, and a whole lot of Hamas foot soldiers were operating in a very competent, methodical, and deadly manner, with control over certain areas for a long enough time for them to execute Israelis and/or kidnap them.  But yeah, instead of doing something that would get the world against Israel, they've got the US pulling up a carrier battle group, they've got multiple European nations pledging support, they are generating some hard conversations about the Iranian problem, etc., and most importantly, Israel has a green light.

14 minutes ago, troph said:

It has to be broader and I think it has to be an attempt to commit the US to a multi theatre war. The players are there - one degree of separation - Russia / Iran / Hamas —> Israel // Israel / US / Ukraine —> Russia (supported by Iran). I think the initial play was Russia / China / Taiwan but China did not want FAFO. That’s all I’ve got. 

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Looking a little world war 3-ish… and the core axis is nuclear - Russia / China / Iran (just a little bit).

2 minutes ago, troph said:

Hamas is a pawn. They are the tip of the spear but they ain’t the throwing arm.

I swear that so much comes back to Russia.

This was posted on RT, and for those who don't realize what RT (or RT.com for the ZeroHedge fans), it's owned and controlled by the Russian government, it's one of their major propaganda outlets, if not the top, and it's run by Margarita Simonyan, who has Putin's ear.

There is no way that the below was posted without Margarita's knowledge and approval, and there's no way she'd allow something this incendiary to be posted without running it by the Kremlin (where she has full access).

[Bevo 13442]

1 minute ago, Eastwood said:

Their main shot caller is rubbing elbows in Qatar and nowhere near in danger. My thought is that he received a boatload of cash to pull this particular trigger, but the question is from whom. But Qatar isn’t as safe as he thinks it is. History has shown that Mossad will find a way. 

Not just Mossad.

[troph 24034]

Just now, Eastwood said:

Their main shot caller is rubbing elbows in Qatar and nowhere near in danger. My thought is that he received a boatload of cash to pull this particular trigger, but the question is from whom. But Qatar isn’t as safe as he thinks it is. History has shown that Mossad will find a way. 

I was about to say hamas leadership wants cash, power and a seat at the table, their role happens to be a terrorist organization but at least as far as their leadership goes that was the only position still available. I have no doubt the rank and file are terrorists and want Jewish annihilation, but it’s always the case leadership wants money and power.

[Macklemore 2860]

33 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

JFC, do they just want the entire world to go full scorched earth.  What's the play here?  Any negotiation play they had went out the window

Martyrdom is their endgame. What they want is clearly spelled out in the Hamas Charter and holy texts. Why do we continue to put our head in the sand when it comes to understanding what motivates them and what they seek. 

[Skipper 5969]

3 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

The only logical motivation behind this attack that I can think is to pull US resources from Ukraine to support Israel. This whol thing has a Russian/Wagner stink all over it. 

Far from an expert but to me the other logical motivation behind the attack is they know it (particularly the brutal and uninaginable methods behind it) will force Israel's hands to kill a bunch of civilians as collateral damage (whether or not justified) which, for a generation, wipes out any chance of normalizing relations with Saudi or others.  

Also will end up causing issues among muslim and non-muslim citizens across western countries similar to post 9/11.  I think most of the Western world (and on a relative basis, Israel) had gotten far too comfortable with the radical muslim threat and this opens that back up.  For a hard line Iran govt dealing with "Westernazation" issues at home this has its advantages.  Not saying there aren't other benefits or there aren't subsequent dominos to fall but at a base level this motivation makes sense to me.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1711705541263679997?s=20

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Frank Drebin
Not sure why tweets won't embed

[Bevo 13442]

56 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Well, you could set the entire tunnel on fire and either burn or suffocate everyone else.

Do we have bombs designed to do that? I assume the tunnels are very long and non-flammable.

[CycleTex87 2946]

22 minutes ago, troph said:

Looking a little world war 3-ish… and the core axis is nuclear - Russia / China / Iran (just a little bit) and at least one is a real conventional threat (China). So if it continues to escalate we might not have to worry about global warming. 

Nothing like a little nuclear winter to knock the top off of global warming. 

[Aqua Buddha 14280]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

Do we have bombs designed to do that? I assume the tunnels are very long and non-flammable.

Yes.  We have substandard health care, education, and infrastructure but we have bombs for every occasion.  

[Schulz2.0 28657]

The general consensus is that Iran was a big player in all this. They're happy to distract their populace and damage Israel. Israel and the Saudis were very close to announcing the normalization of relations between them. That's gone now. Russia's completely happy to have eyes off Ukraine.

[BabaYaga 15184]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Do we have bombs designed to do that? I assume the tunnels are very long and non-flammable.

Thermobarics

[Schulz2.0 28657]

4 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1711705541263679997?s=20

 

Because you're posting from the app. Elon is a retard and x.com isn't the correct address. It's still twitter.com so the links don't embed. Also, why not post links from legitimate news sources instead of "the mainstream media lies" morons?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Schulz2.0

[Bevo 13442]

2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Far from an expert but to me the other logical motivation behind the attack is they know it (particularly the brutal and uninaginable methods behind it) will force Israel's hands to kill a bunch of civilians as collateral damage (whether or not justified) which, for a generation, wipes out any chance of normalizing relations with Saudi or others.  

Also will end up causing issues among muslim and non-muslim citizens across western countries similar to post 9/11.  I think most of the Western world (and on a relative basis, Israel) had gotten far too comfortable with the radical muslim threat and this opens that back up.  For a hard line Iran govt dealing with "Westernazation" issues at home this has its advantages.  Not saying there aren't other benefits or there aren't subsequent dominos to fall but at a base level this motivation makes sense to me.

I agree with this - Personally, I would be a little worried about attending high holy days next year. This won't remain an Israeli issue. It is going to spread. 

[BabaYaga 15184]

Just now, Schulz2.0 said:

The general consensus is that Iran was a big player in all this. They're happy to distract their populace and damage Israel. Israel and the Saudis were very close to announcing the normalization of relations between them. That's gone now. Russia's completely happy to have eyes off Ukraine.

This.  Now, with reprisals, how much of their $6B will now siphon off to it's intended "humanitarian" designation.  

[atomheartbevo 89104]

16 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

The only logical motivation behind this attack that I can think is to pull US resources from Ukraine to support Israel. This whol thing has a Russian/Wagner stink all over it. 

From the tactics to the whole sale methodical slaughter of civilians. Executing people with gardening tools, beheading babies, etc. Sounds alot like Bucha to me.

10 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

This could be to get the US to pull resources from Ukraine, but as long as it stays mainly a Hamas/Israel issue how much help does Israel really need? .... Now if other parties (Iran) join in that might be another matter....so I guess we shall see. 

Feels like it could backfire though, if shit comes down in regard to Iran and their missile/drone factories take a hit (pretty clear they were helping Hamas out in some way).  That would hurt Moscow's ability to destroy Ukrainian schools, hospitals, playgrounds, cafes, and apartment buildings.

[Bevo 13442]

2 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes.  We have substandard health care, education, and infrastructure but we have bombs for every occasion.  

 

What do we have for the Big 12 problem?

[troph 24034]

7 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Far from an expert but to me the other logical motivation behind the attack is they know it (particularly the brutal and uninaginable methods behind it) will force Israel's hands to kill a bunch of civilians as collateral damage (whether or not justified) which, for a generation, wipes out any chance of normalizing relations with Saudi or others.  

Also will end up causing issues among muslim and non-muslim citizens across western countries similar to post 9/11.  I think most of the Western world (and on a relative basis, Israel) had gotten far too comfortable with the radical muslim threat and this opens that back up.  For a hard line Iran govt dealing with "Westernazation" issues at home this has its advantages.  Not saying there aren't other benefits or there aren't subsequent dominos to fall but at a base level this motivation makes sense to me.

That can certainly be a secondary motivation. I still come back to Russia / Iran / China v. US / Europe / Israel.

I think we spent too much time focused on when Russia would use nukes, I think the next desperate stage wasn’t that it was this.  I think Russia likely believes they can bleed us out too, that a multi theatre engagement weakens us and Europe. I suspect any play on Taiwan was met with the US is too strong and not spread thin enough. Conversations happened, and here we are.
 

their failure point may be an underestimation of the far right to go apeshit over this and get back into the war supporting gambit when propaganda had US support for Ukraine splitting.  Watch the far right war hawks come out in support of Israel.   

Maverick has reengaged.giphy

Edited October 10, 2023 by troph

[Bevo 13442]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Thermobarics

I know of them being dropped from planes or shot from artillery but in this case they would have to be placed/exploded under ground or lots of innocents would be killed.

[atomheartbevo 89104]

6 minutes ago, troph said:

I was about to say hamas leadership wants cash, power and a seat at the table, their role happens to be a terrorist organization but at least as far as their leadership goes that was the only position still available. I have no doubt the rank and file are terrorists and want Jewish annihilation, but it’s always the case leadership wants money and power.

But they had it.  They were being invited to Moscow and Tehran and a few other places, and were being treated as the head of a pseudo-nation state for being in charge of the Palestinian areas. They were considered to be, for all intents and purposes, the government of the closest thing to a Palestinian nation-state there is.

20 years of relatively hard work to get to where they were at, and that's all gone, along with the idea of a Palestinian nation-state.

5 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Martyrdom is their endgame. What they want is clearly spelled out in the Hamas Charter and holy texts. Why do we continue to put our head in the sand when it comes to understanding what motivates them and what they seek. 

That's not what the Hamas leadership wanted though - those dudes are not strapping on suicide vests or flying paragliders into Israel and running through the streets executing Israels.  The Hamas leadership...Hell, a chunk of them probably weren't even living in the Palestinian territories.