GFCI question

[Zone Read 299]

Moved into a new house last week.  House is 30 years old, eventually going to replace all the switches and maybe the outlets.  Every outlet test fine except 1 GFCI plug in the master bathroom, the most important one cuz it powers my beloved bidet (see the lengthy bidet thread on this site if you question my manhood).

Every other outlet, switch, device in the entire house works fine.  This GFCI outlet (actual GFCI, not a downstream outlet) is deader than Jonny Manziel's career.  It can't be reset.  I pulled off the faceplate and tested the line, load, and neutruls with a non-contact tester.  All dead.  Maybe I don't understand GFCI circuits all that well but even if the GFCI outlet went bad, the live wire coming in should still be hot, right?  In addition, since the outlet has 4 lines into it, I'm assuming it must be an upstream GFCI that's protecting other outlets down the circuit.  But every other plug and switch works fine?  I looked for hidden outlets, outside outlets, couldn't find any.  Before I bite the bullet and call an electrician, any ideas of what it could be?

 

[Upgrayedd 5812]

Sometimes it is daisy chained with another GFCI outlet in a completely random space- like a garage.  
 

Are you sure you have checked them all?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10236]

Any other outlets in the master bathroom?  If so they should also be GFCI so likely another GFCI outlet somewhere.  Also might pull their faceplate and outlet out as well to see if their are wires for you outlet just not connected anymore. (Could have been a trouble outlet so previous owner just took it off the circuit leaving it dead - likely would want an electrician if this is the case)

[Jerry Callo 8703]

Our outdoor outlets are tied to indoor/garage GFCI outlets.  Have you made sure all of the outdoor outlets are working?

ETA:  have you checked the circuit breaker for the GFCI outlet that has no power?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Jerry Callo

[Da Fino 2783]

15 minutes ago, Jerry Callo said:

Our outdoor outlets are tied to indoor/garage GFCI outlets.  Have you made sure all of the outdoor outlets are working?

ETA:  have you checked the circuit breaker for the GFCI outlet that has no power?

This is the same thing I ran into in my last house. A couple of plugs for christmas lights, one kitchen outlet and maybe one more somewhere. I assume it's from when they updated the house. 

[Zone Read 299]

I checked inside and outside for GFCIs that can be reset.  Nothing. All outdoor outlets are working.  The GFCI in question is on the living room breaker, #10 in the sub panel, it's in the on position and every switch and outlet on that circuit is working.  All other GFCI outlets on that circuit are working. Again, if it's an upstream GFCI that's faulty something downstream wouldn't work either but that's not the case.  Even if the actual GFCI plug itself went bad, I'd still get one wire in the box showing hot, wouldn't I?  All 4 wires in the box are dead, no voltage detected by my tester.  Ugh.

[smwhorn 482]

sometimes, if there is a power surge, like a lightning strike, the circuit board inside the GFCI can get damaged.  Also, if for whatever reason it got water in it or something like that, the circuit board can get damaged.  that will cause the gfci to be in a condition where you cannot reset it.

[partytimesausage 27]

i would guess the outlet upstream is connected to it through a stab connector on the back of the outlet and the connector doesnt make contact anymore.  you should have a live wire if its connected properly upstream. 

[immamac 42850]

why don't you just pull the outlet and test the wires to see if they are hot?

[smwhorn 482]

I think, but am not certain, that if the gfci is in the tripped position and then the circuit board was damaged, it will not provide power to anything plugged into it.  If only the circuit board was damaged, and the device is simply not providing ground fault protection, it will still provide power to something plugged into it.  but it also depends upon the age of the gfci.  I think the newer ones will not provide power if the device itself cannot be reset due to a ground fault.

Edited October 11, 2023 by smwhorn

[Zone Read 299]

44 minutes ago, immamac said:

why don't you just pull the outlet and test the wires to see if they are hot?

I did exactly this.  No wires are hot.  

[Zone Read 299]

46 minutes ago, partytimesausage said:

i would guess the outlet upstream is connected to it through a stab connector on the back of the outlet and the connector doesnt make contact anymore.  you should have a live wire if its connected properly upstream. 

Many of the switches in the house are stab connections.  But again, every other outlet works and if this one isn't getting power, others downstream shouldn't either.  And there have to be ones downstream since all 4 screws have wires attached.

[smwhorn 482]

1 minute ago, Zone Read said:

Many of the switches in the house are stab connections.  But again, every other outlet works and if this one isn't getting power, others downstream shouldn't either.  And there have to be ones downstream since all 4 screws have wires attached.

while the gfci was disconnected, did you try to power any other devices at either the upstream or downstream receptacles?

[immamac 42850]

you need to test L and N on the top 2 screws if those are not hot you have a dead circuit/wire/something that has nothing to do with GFCI wrong. You should get no reading on the load side at all, which is normal considering what you've said in this thread. 

[Zone Read 299]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

you need to test L and N on the top 2 screws if those are not hot you have a dead circuit/wire/something that has nothing to do with GFCI wrong. You should get no reading on the load side at all, which is normal considering what you've said in this thread. 

Yep, did that.  All 4 wires are dead.  

[immamac 42850]

1 minute ago, Zone Read said:

Yep, did that.  All 4 wires are dead.  

you have a way bigger problem then

[Zone Read 299]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

you have a way bigger problem then

Yup.  This is a puzzler.  All the closest switches and outlets work fine and I redid the connections, so I can't figure where it's getting power from.  And everything that could be downstream works fine..  I guess I'll have to call in a professional. You do house calls?  LOL.

[immamac 42850]

post pic of wiring if you can?

[Zone Read 299]

[Zone Read 299]

12 minutes ago, immamac said:

post pic of wiring if you can?

What time should I expect you and what do you want for dinner?  Not providing pics of wife.  Seriously, very grateful for your help.

[immamac 42850]

are you in austin? send me a DM and I can send you an electrician rec

[Zone Read 299]

45 minutes ago, immamac said:

are you in austin? send me a DM and I can send you an electrician rec

Nope, San Antonio.  I've got an electrician I used for 240 volt stuff that I won't touch.  I thought maybe if you were nearby and wanted some sous vide ribeye you might want to check it, LOL.

[blacklab 11929]

you have an attic above this outlet?

If so go up there and find the wire going down to this outlet. Then trace it back and test what it goes back to.

[Zone Read 299]

47 minutes ago, blacklab said:

you have an attic above this outlet?

If so go up there and find the wire going down to this outlet. Then trace it back and test what it goes back to.

Good idea.  Maybe I'll try that.  Although a friend of mine recently crashed through his attic to the floor below and broke some bones, so maybe I won't.  

[blacklab 11929]

make sure you're stepping on wood and you're good to go

[hookemATL 11736]

If the house is 30 years old there is bound to be upwards of 3 ghosts in the attic. Be careful. They are very busy during spooky season (October). 

[Jkwellborn 6702]

why don't you just pull the outlet and test the wires to see if they are hot?

He did, or maybe I misunderstood.

Like mentioned, it could be getting power from a different GFCI that is having issues. Also, it’s possible that the wire came loose in the junction box.

Go grab a gfci tester and see what it tells you.

[partytimesausage 27]

get in the attic and trace the wire or you can guess by using a continuity tester at the different outlets to try to trace it. 

likely spots to look if you can follow the wire. 

1) loose connection inside a junction box.  If somebody was a dick4, they could of buried a junction box behind drywall. 

2)  I had a random outlet that would work intermittently, and the solution was  the stab connection at the upstream outlet wasnt tight anymore.  Stab connections suck a butt. 

3)if you cant trace the wires, it would probably be easier just to run a new wire from the closest existing outlet. 

 

It almost sounds like your outlet has been removed from a live circuit at some point.  Has it ever worked for you? 

 

Signed

youtube electrician

[Celery Man 20950]

just for your later bookmarks

 

[fuggled 576]

Trying to trace the wire in the attic is probably the way to go. Also, it's doubtful this is the case for an outlet in that position but it's possible someone wired it up to a switch. We had a couple of those in our house that took a little while to figure out.

[Jkwellborn 6702]

Trying to trace the wire in the attic is probably the way to go. Also, it's doubtful this is the case for an outlet in that position but it's possible someone wired it up to a switch. We had a couple of those in our house that took a little while to figure out.

People used to pull power from switches a lot.