People Are Awful and Stupid

[statsman 5497]

I didn’t want to divert the Israel-Hamas War thread with these philosophical musings and thoughts. 
 
There has been a lot of discussion about Hamas apologists, on campus, and other places. There are rebuttals that mention IDF strikes on population centers. I’d like to make a few observations and see where it leads. 
 
Hamas killed children, toddlers, infants, unarmed civilians. They shot them, stabbed them, burnt them. It is difficult to put yourself in their shoes and imagine doing that, while in a right mind. How can anyone defend that?

Russia has killed civilians in Ukraine and raped women, as a matter of policy. The war gets support in Russia. I bet a lot of us know or have known Russians, and struggle to reconcile that. 
 
Dropping bombs on military targets that kill nearby civilians. Our armed forces do it, as do opposing armed forces. How do we feel about that?

1 Samuel 15: the prophet Samuel tells Saul that it is God’s will that the Israelites kill every Amalekite, every man, woman and child. This was over 1000 BCE- each of those killings required an Israelite to put a brass blade into every Amalekite’s body. (Saul disobeyed God and merely killed the men, and sold the others into slavery. Not wanting to go into a theological discussion, but my personal belief is that Samuel’s instruction was more Samuel’s will than God’s will). 
 
The Texan-Comanche war. When you read that Rangers wiped out an Indian village, it means that Rangers killed women and children. You can argue that the Comanches were worse, or not (they were more likely to not kill the children that they could absorb into the tribe, and would enslave the adult women, working them until they died. The babies and infants were thrown aside and the men were tortured to death). 
 
I’ve skipped a whole lot of similar history, but my central point is- people are awful. These atrocities that seem senseless and unexplainable are actually things that we (or our people) are a lot closer to doing than anyone would like to admit. 
 
How can anyone defend them? I think we have a tendency to always empathize with “our side”, whether it’s our nation, our religion, our culture, our party/school. My Lai really happened, it would have been worse if Hugh Thompson didn’t stop it (may have even been suppressed) and let me tell you-Lt. Calley absolutely had defenders in the early’70s (not really anymore and I think most people will nod their heads in approval that day they read that he died). 
 
There always will be people willing to be apologists for horrible actions, arguing that they were necessary actions in a larger just cause. 
 
What can be done? I am coming around to thinking ideas are more effective at resolving serious conflicts than actions, once you rule out the possibility of genocide, which I hope you do). Our nation has been blessed that our most oppressed people had leaders like Frederick Douglass (if you have not read any of his July 4 speeches, you should google them. Know how some of Lincoln’s remarks don’t hold up and sound cringey? Douglass’ really holds up well, even to modern ears) and MLK. They argued ideas and challenged the nation to live up to its avowed principles. The nation didn’t deserve them; we deserved a Haiti-style uprising. 
 
I don’t know how (or if) the Israeli-Palestinian issue will be resolved, but I think it will be a positive sign if we see leaders arguing ideas and challenging their own people to be and do better. 

[UT_OB1 2227]

People are too quick to turn the other side in to a monster. Non humans. Makes it easier to kill them. Whether it is Hamas/Israel, republican / democrat, or Ukraine/ Russia. We have people on this site getting excited about “orcs” getting killed. That’s what’s wrong with people.
 

People and countries should absolutely defend themselves, violently and lethally if necessary, but should not celebrate the death of their enemies. It may sound odd to say, but you should mourn them. They were innocent children loved by parents at one point. They have loved ones that will miss them. Their death may have been necessary in the moment for survival, but few people are truly monsters, and if we stopped demonizing our enemies and acknowledged their humanity, we might have a shot at stopping the violence cycle. 

[MissingInAction 25299]

When it comes to the genocide of native Americans I have absolutely zero sympathy for the assholes who thought they were entitled to the lands of native Americans.

Yes, I understand my ginger ass would not be posting from a texmex restaurant in texas if not for said genocide.

I'm not sure how to feel about any of it.

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

people are awful.

[mdmost 43297]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

The Texan-Comanche war. When you read that Rangers wiped out an Indian village, it means that Rangers killed women and children. You can argue that the Comanches were worse, or not (they were more likely to not kill the children that they could absorb into the tribe, and would enslave the adult women, working them until they died. The babies and infants were thrown aside and the men were tortured to death). 

I'm trying to make it through Empire of the Summer Moon and it's just too hard to keep going through.

[ChiTownDoc 21217]

1 hour ago, MissingInAction said:

When it comes to the genocide of native Americans I have absolutely zero sympathy for the assholes who thought they were entitled to the lands of native Americans.

Yes, I understand my ginger ass would not be posting from a texmex restaurant in texas if not for said genocide.

I'm not sure how to feel about any of it.

At least we came a long way from here.  

[MissingInAction 25299]

3 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

At least we came a long way from here.  

Now it's just taught in schools.

[futureman 22565]

13 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

my ginger ass

I always knew you were soulless. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, mdmost said:

I'm trying to make it through Empire of the Summer Moon and it's just too hard to keep going through.

So it's not just me.  Bought if for myself last Christmas, and I'm ALMOST half way through it.

[Nivek 17036]

People are not awful. In general, most of us are just trying to live our lives and raise our kids. We take in stray animals and give them aid. When disaster strikes we rush to help.

We have people working on cures for diseases and doctors flying themselves to foreign countries in order to provide aid for free.

Some segments of people are broken, either through a screw loose or being raised on hate. If you focus on that too much than you will fall into that trap.

Go check out Factfulness by Han something rather. He did his best to remind us the world is getting better, despite the news and how.

[Dbeasy 15227]

17 hours ago, mdmost said:

I'm trying to make it through Empire of the Summer Moon and it's just too hard to keep going through.

That was a very tough book to read. I would just get enraged. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

A person is not awful. A person is great. People are awful. 
 

 

[MissingInAction 25299]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

People are not awful. In general, most of us are just trying to live our lives and raise our kids. We take in stray animals and give them aid. When disaster strikes we rush to help.

We have people working on cures for diseases and doctors flying themselves to foreign countries in order to provide aid for free.

Some segments of people are broken, either through a screw loose or being raised on hate. If you focus on that too much than you will fall into that trap.

Go check out Factfulness by Han something rather. He did his best to remind us the world is getting better, despite the news and how.

This.

Be a drop in the bucket.

[Captain Ron 12956]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

People are not awful. In general, most of us are just trying to live our lives and raise our kids. We take in stray animals and give them aid. When disaster strikes we rush to help.

We have people working on cures for diseases and doctors flying themselves to foreign countries in order to provide aid for free.

Some segments of people are broken, either through a screw loose or being raised on hate. If you focus on that too much than you will fall into that trap.

Go check out Factfulness by Han something rather. He did his best to remind us the world is getting better, despite the news and how.

This is where I fall in this. 

I would add to the 3rd paragraph that you should never underestimate the power of mob mentality. If you put a few bad seeds into a mob or group they can seize the power and lead many astray or worse in a mob whip them into a frenzy and get them to do things they would usually never do. 

[futureman 22565]

2 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

That was a very tough book to read. I would just get enraged. 

what part enraged you?

[Eastwood 4394]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

A person is not awful. A person is great. People are awful. 
 

 

The larger the group becomes, the less accountability each individual has. Soon, individual accountability is completely eroded and a group becomes capable of horrible things. The only way to prevent it from happening is making sure those in charge of the group maintain their individual accountability and have them understand that they are liable for the actions of the group. We have always fallen short, as a society, in doing that. 

[MissingInAction 25299]

9 hours ago, futureman said:

I always knew you were soulless. 

Soulless would mean i had a soul to begin with.

[Schulz2.0 29039]

 

[Samson's Wig 3195]

3 hours ago, Nivek said:

People are not awful. In general, most of us are just trying to live our lives and raise our kids. We take in stray animals and give them aid. When disaster strikes we rush to help.

We have people working on cures for diseases and doctors flying themselves to foreign countries in order to provide aid for free.

Some segments of people are broken, either through a screw loose or being raised on hate. If you focus on that too much than you will fall into that trap.

Go check out Factfulness by Han something rather. He did his best to remind us the world is getting better, despite the news and how.

Hans Rosling.  Factfulness is definitely worth a read.

[billfromlaketravis 11601]

Anybody with sympathy for the Comanches needs to read Empire of the Summer Moon. Those people absolutely did not give a fuck about human life. If the average surly poster encountered Comanche in 1850 the following would occur: 

- He would immediately be impaled by a spear and killed. 

- His wife would be gang raped and killed afterwards. 

- His daughter would be gang raped and taken into slavery.

- His son would be savagely beaten and if young enough taken into slavery. If the son was over 8 or so they’d just kill him. 
 

There’s a reason every tribe hated the Comanches and killed them snakes. They earned it. 

[mchookem 16516]

2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

I would add to the 3rd paragraph that you should never underestimate the power of mob mentality. If you put a few bad seeds into a mob or group they can seize the power and lead many astray or worse in a mob whip them into a frenzy and get them to do things they would usually never do. 

yeah, that's the 'stupid' part. 

[Deej 77167]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:42 PM, MissingInAction said:

When it comes to the genocide of native Americans I have absolutely zero sympathy for the assholes who thought they were entitled to the lands of native Americans.

Yes, I understand my ginger ass would not be posting from a texmex restaurant in texas if not for said genocide.

I'm not sure how to feel about any of it.

Why does it seem Spain gets a break in killing the people of the New World?

Aztecs and Incas would like a word. 

[Gatorubet 30396]

23 hours ago, mdmost said:

I'm trying to make it through Empire of the Summer Moon and it's just too hard to keep going through.

Wait till the McKenzie part. You’ll cheer up.

[Homercles 10206]

3 hours ago, Eastwood said:

The larger the group becomes, the less accountability each individual has. Soon, individual accountability is completely eroded and a group becomes capable of horrible things. The only way to prevent it from happening is making sure those in charge of the group maintain their individual accountability and have them understand that they are liable for the actions of the group. We have always fallen short, as a society, in doing that. 

Tangential to your post I’ve seen bystander syndrome in action twice first hand and associated lack of accountability by people in groups.  I think about them often and am deeply grateful that my innate personality saw me react without thinking about it. 

2017 ROT Rally:  Cart with two women standing on the back flips over, one hits her head so hard I can hear it over roar of the bikes…out of the crowd of ~24 only myself and one more run to them.  

Pointing at someone and yelling (like you’re taught) to call 911 was met with blank stares twice, so had to do it myself.  

2022 ACL:  Dude was shuffling his very fucked up friend towards the medical tent near the Miller stage.  You see that occasionally, but suddenly his friend looked up at the sky, opened his mouth and literally started turning gray…pretty sure he stopped breathing. 

Out of a huge crowd only myself and two other dudes ran over…they hauled him at a full sprint while I ran in front shoving people out of the way.  My guess was fentanyl OD…that moment oh him literally staring at the sun while his skin changed colors haunts me.  

Like I said, tangential to this thread but I’ve seen first hand that most folks’ sense of what’s the right thing to do is highly dulled in the presence of a crowd. 

[mchookem 16516]

[GreenspointTexas 9866]

eventually, we will all be one people with one culture and one skin tone

 

until then, we are consumed by our petty differences

[Covri 6269]

8 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

A person is not awful. A person is great. People are awful. 
 

 

[closetohumping 17547]

8 hours ago, Nivek said:

People are not awful. In general, most of us are just trying to live our lives and raise our kids. We take in stray animals and give them aid. When disaster strikes we rush to help.

We have people working on cures for diseases and doctors flying themselves to foreign countries in order to provide aid for free.

Some segments of people are broken, either through a screw loose or being raised on hate. If you focus on that too much than you will fall into that trap.

Go check out Factfulness by Han something rather. He did his best to remind us the world is getting better, despite the news and how.

Some take in animals and try to fight them.

[mchookem 16516]

yes but we're talking about more than just kevin here!

[MissingInAction 25299]

4 hours ago, Deej said:

Why does it seem Spain gets a break in killing the people of the New World?

Aztecs and Incas would like a word. 

Thats the thing. This world was only new to the assholes claiming it to be new.

Am I preaching to the choir?

[Nivek 17036]

15 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Some take in animals and try to fight them.

[Prepuce of Doom 21112]

22 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

This is where I fall in this. 

I would add to the 3rd paragraph that you should never underestimate the power of mob mentality. If you put a few bad seeds into a mob or group they can seize the power and lead many astray or worse in a mob whip them into a frenzy and get them to do things they would usually never do. 

There's a notion on this that Stephen King has expressed in more than one of his books, and it seems so accurate to me - a mob always picks its own leaders, and it always picks the right ones. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Prepuce of Doom