Politically charged altercations at Whataburger

[Brian Fantana 6690]

Yep, that's right, you've seen nothing. Because there are no cameras allowed to see anything.

[hayden_horn 11365]

as a matter of fact, the fact that the only thing we have are blurry images and that one audio tape of kids wailing is concerning.

[jimmyjazz 46143]

It's pointless to argue.  The true believers are just going to ignore all evidence.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I’m against separations. 

But we were detaining unaccompanied minors long before trump in the exact same facilities.  So railing against the conditions in those facilities now when you didn’t prior to Trump is bullshit.  

[Chrispy 132]

I’ve seen children separated. That’s terrible enough without all of these exaggerations of it being a precursor to genocide. 

[David Dennison 18947]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

I’m against separations. 

But we were detaining unaccompanied minors long before trump in the exact same facilities.  So railing against the conditions in those facilities now when you didn’t prior to Trump is bullshit.  

The problem with this statement is that it ignores all of the criticism of the Obama administration's enforcement policies.

[jimmyjazz 46143]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I’m against separations. 

But we were detaining unaccompanied minors long before trump in the exact same facilities.  So railing against the conditions in those facilities now when you didn’t prior to Trump is bullshit.  

No, it's not.  We've been over and over on this.  You have an above-room-temperature IQ but you refuse to use it.

Prior administrations, BOTH sides, did not pursue those cases.  They understood the inhumanity inherent in that pursuit.  Thus, in terms of SCALE, the problems were far less than they are now.  That's all on the current administration.

Did prior administrations detain unaccompanied minors?  Sure.  Did they strip accompanied minors from their adult companions?  NO.

If you don't want to be accused of being a disingenuous shithead, there is a simple remedy:  don't be a disingenuous shithead.  Your choice.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The problem with this statement is that it ignores all of the criticism of the Obama administration's enforcement policies.

I don’t recall those on the Shag.  Were there some?  Specifically about the facilities we housed kids in?  Were they called concentration camps back then?

[jimmyjazz 46143]

We are also building more facilities, and they fucking suck.  So go pitch a tent (blue verb intended) in one of those tents and get back to us.

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t recall those on the Shag.  Were there some?  Specifically about the facilities we housed kids in?  Were they called concentration camps back then?

Do some research and report back.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

No, it's not.  We've been over and over on this.  You have an above-room-temperature IQ but you refuse to use it.

Prior administrations, BOTH sides, did not pursue those cases.  They understood the inhumanity inherent in that pursuit.  Thus, in terms of SCALE, the problems were far less than they are now.  That's all on the current administration.

Did prior administrations detain unaccompanied minors?  Sure.  Did they strip accompanied minors from their adult companions?  NO.

If you don't want to be accused of being a disingenuous shithead, there is a simple remedy:  don't be a disingenuous shithead.  Your choice.

You struggle with reading. And that’s okay. Let me spell it out. 

I am just as against separations as you are.  

But a big criticism now is facilities we are using are concentration camps.  The same facilities we used under Obama ane previous presidents.  

So we agree on separations. But I’m pointing out that the bitching about conditions doesn’t seem fair to me.  Because they haven’t changed under Trump.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Or are you guys saying the conditions are now worse under Trump?

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

You struggle with reading. And that’s okay. Let me spell it out. 

I am just as against separations as you are.  

But a big criticism now is facilities we are using are concentration camps.  The same facilities we used under Obama ane previous presidents.  

So we agree on separations. But I’m pointing out that the bitching about conditions doesn’t seem fair to me.  Because they haven’t changed under Trump.  

Except for the new tent city internment camps, obviously.

[jimmyjazz 46143]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You struggle with reading. And that’s okay. Let me spell it out. 

I am just as against separations as you are.  

But a big criticism now is facilities we are using are concentration camps.  The same facilities we used under Obama ane previous presidents.  

So we agree on separations. But I’m pointing out that the bitching about conditions doesn’t seem fair to me.  Because they haven’t changed under Trump.  

I don't struggle with reading.  I know what you're doing.  You're what-abouting.

If those conditions were identical under Obama, that's a problem.  That doesn't change the fact that subjecting 10X the children to abominable circumstances isn't worse.  You're gaslighting to minimize the offense Trump is commiting, which are far worse in SCALE than any ever committed in the past 2 decades.

Defy that.  I dare you.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Except for the new tent city internment camps, obviously.

So trump kid cages are worse than the Obama kid cages?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Does anyone have the stats of the number of kids detained by administration?  

[deadshank 24653]

The current cages are more badderer. 

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

So trump kid cages are worse than the Obama kid cages?

Yes. There are more of them and they include children separated from parents by the United States government. That wasn't happening until Trump changed the policy.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Yes. There are more of them and they include children separated from parents by the United States government. That wasn't happening until Trump changed the policy.

Nice deflection there.  You don’t want to answer about conditions of caged children.  

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Nice deflection there.  You don’t want to answer about conditions of caged children.  

I just did. I said yes.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I just did. I said yes.

No you didn’t.  You didn’t address the conditions kids are subjected to.  You just said there are more. 

[hayden_horn 11365]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Or are you guys saying the conditions are now worse under Trump?

well...

i imagine that the overcrowding by throwing an extra three thousand into limited facilities worsen conditions considerably. but you've already thought of that?

[jimmyjazz 46143]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Nice deflection there.  You don’t want to answer about conditions of caged children.  

Answer this:  which is "better", one child living in squalor or one million children living in squalor?  Scale selected to make a point.

Edited July 11, 2018 by jimmyjazz

[Brian Fantana 6690]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Or are you guys saying the conditions are now worse under Trump?

How can you argue this out of the other side of your mouth when you flat out admitted you're against the family separations just a few posts up? That alone makes it worse regardless of whether or not the conditions they are kept in is similar.

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

No you didn’t.  You didn’t address the conditions kids are subjected to.  You just said there are more. 

And they are worse.

 

[hayden_horn 11365]

johnny disingenuous

lemme ask you johnny, were you against caging children when obama was president? i was. were you?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

well...

i imagine that the overcrowding by throwing an extra three thousand into limited facilities worsen conditions considerably. but you've already thought of that?

So Obama kiddie concentration camps were okay?

any evidence they are more crowded?  Everything I’ve read says the numbers have dropped. 

[David Dennison 18947]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

So Obama kiddie concentration camps were okay?

any evidence they are more crowded?  Everything I’ve read says the numbers have dropped. 

No. They weren't OK. Are you retarded?

[bad_teammate 13224]

37 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

I’ve seen nothing at the border that leads me to believe there’s an impending genocide, it’s unnecessary paranoia on your part. 

Who said a genocide is "impending". Instead of constantly shifting goalposts, you should acknowledge the very simple reality that we could be heading toward genocide.

17 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

I’ve seen children separated. That’s terrible enough without all of these exaggerations of it being a precursor to genocide. 

So it's OK to notice problems, but not to place them next to historical events and look for oft-repeated patterns in history?

Ostrich -> head -> sand

18 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

But we were detaining unaccompanied minors long before trump in the exact same facilities.

In some cases yes. But there are many new facilities and many makeshift facilities.

And the children detained by the Obama administration were unaccompanied minors. The Trump administration made an explicit policy to separate families.

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

So unaccompanied minors being placed in cages is okay?

[hayden_horn 11365]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

So Obama kiddie concentration camps were okay?

any evidence they are more crowded?  Everything I’ve read says the numbers have dropped. 

nope. they were not. they still are not. what's worse is that we are greatly increasing the number of incarcerated by including ACCOMPANIED children. in fact, the conditions may be made worse by the sheer grief of those children who have no idea where their parents are and what will happen to them.

unaccompanied children provide a challenge. you do have to make sure they are not being trafficked. you ahve to decide if it is even humane to deport them. obama thought so. did you think that as well, johnny?

[David Dennison 18947]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

So unaccompanied minors being placed in cages is okay?

No. 

[Brian Fantana 6690]

Like, I will never understand why the Trump admin taking a bad Obama (and previous admins) policy and making it worse somehow turns this weird Republican talking point that isn't even trying to make a point other than "WELL OBUMMER DID IT".

[hayden_horn 11365]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

So unaccompanied minors being placed in cages is okay?

how about you tell us what you think?

i've answered this fucking question at least twice already.

trump made the problem exponentially worse. do you agree?

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

We should invade and then colonize Mexico. Wall both borders and send ALL asylum seekers there. 

Confiscate the 25 billion a year from western Union (remittances) to fund it. Out source all of these jobs Americans don’t want to our new “labor” colony. Then send the 100k+ living in tents in California to also colonize. Maybe give everyone a free shipping container to outfit. 

Rape Mexico of all its natural resources. 

Problem solved. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[bad_teammate 13224]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

how about you tell us what you think?

i've answered this fucking question at least twice already.

trump made the problem exponentially worse. do you agree?

He literally cannot comprehend the notion of someone who disliked a Democrat policy AND a Republican policy. It makes no sense to him.

[David Dennison 18947]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

We should invade and then colonize Mexico. Wall both borders and send ALL asylum seekers there. 

Confiscate yhe 25billion a year from western Union (remittances) to find it. Out source all of these jobs Americans don’t want. Rape Mexico of all its natural resources. 

Problem solved. 

We couldn't even invade Iraq properly and you want to invade Mexico?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Exponentially?  No.  I disagree with him.  But the problem was created because word got to Central America that Obama was letting you come in with a golden ticket if you had a kid. No telling how many kids died in the brush of Mexico and Texas due to that. 

[bad_teammate 13224]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Exponentially?  No.  I disagree with him.  But the problem was created because word got to Central America that Obama was letting you come in with a golden ticket if you had a kid. No telling how many kids died in the brush of Mexico and Texas due to that. 

Central Americans did not make the dangerous journey under pre-Obama presidents?

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We couldn't even invade Iraq properly and you want to invade Mexico?

Couple $100 handshakes and free citizenship to their current government. 

We can train our homeless as a new infantry. Hurl flaming bags of human feces and used needles for knives!

[hayden_horn 11365]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Exponentially?  No.  I disagree with him.  But the problem was created because word got to Central America that Obama was letting you come in with a golden ticket if you had a kid. No telling how many kids died in the brush of Mexico and Texas due to that. 

do you even take just a moment or two and try to understand a problem? why do you think it is primarily central american peoples seeking refugee status?

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

do you even take just a moment or two and try to understand a problem? why do you think it is primarily central american peoples seeking refugee status?

What about the problems we have right at home that you are ignoring?  Billions being wasted on housing and false asylum claims that could be used on Americans. I’m sure those Americans living in tent cities would appreciate a nice empty wall mart for shelter and protection.  We treat illegals better than our own citizens.  Where do they claim asylum?

What’s left of the middle class can’t afford you faux aulturism. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[jimmyjazz 46143]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Exponentially?  No.  I disagree with him.  But the problem was created because word got to Central America that Obama was letting you come in with a golden ticket if you had a kid. No telling how many kids died in the brush of Mexico and Texas due to that. 

Are you literally this indoctrinated?  "Obama" didn't endorse legislation designed to offer assistance until the summer of 2014, long after the spike in border immigration began.

 

[Chrispy 132]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Who said a genocide is "impending". Instead of constantly shifting goalposts, you should acknowledge the very simple reality that we could be heading toward genocide.

So it's OK to notice problems, but not to place them next to historical events and look for oft-repeated patterns in history?

Ostrich -> head -> sand

In some cases yes. But there are many new facilities and many makeshift facilities.

And the children detained by the Obama administration were unaccompanied minors. The Trump administration made an explicit policy to separate families.

 

We’re not heading towards genocide, so rest easy my friend. Feel free to notice patterns when they happen, but they have not happened.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

[hayden_horn 11365]

here's the thing, @Johnny Sack, i'm going to take a moment and explain a few things. this is not for your benefit, because your are completely fucking hopeless. but maybe some lurker will find some elucidation here.

the first thing you have to do is look at trump's rhetoric. he talks about mexico sending rapists, murderers, and he assumes, some good people. doesn't matter to him, he wants to deport hem all. however, this particular wave isn't mexican. it's central american. the reason trump states that he wants to go with this no tolerance policy is because he wants to deport these animals. of course, later, he clarifies by animals, he means MS13 members. as you may know, MS13 is a vicious gang. they are fucking maniacs who make sure everyone knows who they are, because they tattoo their fucking faces. 

they aren't hard to fucking spot. and as a matter of fact, the fundamental reason so many of these people are now at our borders is BECAUSE of fleeing MS13. this is where trump's rhetoric breaks down and it becomes obvious he is projecting.

take a few moments to just educate yourselves, yall. these are true refugees that we are treating like human garbage. they dared to hope and we told them to shit in the other hand.

this started in the mid-2010s, not because obama relaxed detention - he fucking deported a lot of these people, a policy that i did not and do not support. these people truly meet the definition of asylum seekers:

Quote

Every year people come to the United States seeking protection because they have suffered persecution or fear that they will suffer persecution due to:

Race
Religion
Nationality
Membership in a particular social group
Political opinion

in this case, because they are NOT members of a particular social group.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum

read this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/13/central-america-violence-refugee-crisis-gangs-murder

this article is from 2016, and outlines the reasons why these people are risking everything to come here to seek asylum. it's because staying in their home country is certain death.

Quote

ntil a few months ago, Carlos Hernández was a government health promoter in central El Salvador. His job was to visit poor families and ensure their children attended school and received health checks, in exchange for modest cash benefits.

One day in March, on his way to visit a family in a neighbourhood controlled by the Mara Salvatrucha (MS13) gang, Hernández witnessed a beating by gang members. Too scared to intervene, he hurried past, completed his visit and started his long walk home.

The four assailants were waiting for him.

“I pleaded with them to let me live. I said I had children, that I’d say nothing,” said Hernández, 31. “They agreed to spare my life but told me never to return.”

The victim was found dead three days later – one of 611 homicides in the tiny Central American nation that month.

Hernández was scared, but couldn’t find another job. So when he returned to visit the same family a month later, he took a different route and left his uniform at home in hope of going unnoticed.

But he was spotted by gang informants, and the same four youngsters confronted Hernández with baseball bats, accusing him of spying for a rival group.

“They took down my address from my identity card, and threatened to kill my whole family if they ever saw me again. We left El Salvador five days later,” said Hernández, now living with his wife and two children in a sparsely furnished room in Tapachula, in southern Mexico, where they are seeking asylum.

Quote

The Hernández family are part of an alarming exodus of entire families forced to flee widespread violence in Central America’s northern triangle, the world’s most dangerous region outside an official war zone.

Advertisement

As huge numbers of Syrian and African refugees risk their lives crossing the Mediterranean Sea to escape war-torn states, advocates say a parallel refugee crisis has unfolded on America’s doorstep amid an undeclared but increasingly brutal war between criminal groups and security forces.

An estimated 80,000 people from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, mostly families and unaccompanied children, are expected to apply for asylum overseas this year – a 658% increase since 2011, according to the UN refugee agency (UNHCR). Tens of thousands more will be forcibly displaced, but not seek international help.

but it's because obama. not because they fear for their fucking lives or anything.

Edited July 11, 2018 by hayden_horn

[hayden_horn 11365]

10 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

What about the problems we have right at home that you are ignoring?  Billions being wasted on housing and false asylum claims that could be used on Americans. I’m sure those Americans living in tent cities would appreciate a nice empty wall mart for shelter and protection.  We treat illegals better than our own citizens.  Where do they claim asylum?

What’s left of the middle class can’t afford you faux aulturism. 

who said we have to ignore problems at home? can we do two things at once? we absolutely do not treat illegals better than our own citizens. that's fucking silly.

[Anastasis 23485]

7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

do you even take just a moment or two and try to understand a problem? why do you think it is primarily central american peoples seeking refugee status?

I haven't really been keeping up with all the ins and out of this e-spat, but it is primarily central americans driving the current statistics. Honduras, Guatemala, ES.

 

 

[RandomIdoit 657]

17 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I haven't really been keeping up with all the ins and out of this e-spat, but it is primarily central americans driving the current statistics. Honduras, Guatemala, ES.

 

 

Why aren't these people seeking asylum in other countries? I understand why they want to come to the US. I asked this earlier but didn't get a response: Are the United States and Canada the only "safe" countries in all the Americas? Do the gangs follow these hoards of people across multiple countries until they get to the United States and then scurry back to Central America after the people they are after are across the border? 

[hayden_horn 11365]

i don't know why i post sometimes. people refuse to educate themselves. read the fucking guardian article i linked.