Houston Astros off-season thread

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

6 hours ago, uoftorange said:

See that's the problem with the idiotic system we have.  If he's a hall of famer he's a hall of famer.  Blocking how many people you can vote for, this dumb ass "he's not a first balloter" and the most idiotic "he used steroids even though it wasn't tested for and we also know everyone was doing it" are just stupid.  The baseball writers of old are basically the umpires, stuck in their ways and abusing their power

If the ten best players at a position aren't in the hall, what the fuck is going on?  And Billy is inarguably one of the ten best closers of all time.  That may change, but of retired guys it's not arguable.  

He's not one of the 10 best pitchers or 100 best pitchers or 500 best pitchers of all time though.  That's his position, pitcher.  Period.  It's dumb that any closer (other than maybe Mariano) got in. It would be like if the NFL HOF started letting in "3rd down backs".  That's not a thing. It's not a position.  It's a specialist subset of an actual real position, running back.

That said- those morons made Mariano the only unanimous guy ever and he probably barely qualifies as like the 100th best pitcher in baseball- and they let in 7 other closers, so under that metric Wagner should certainly be in. 

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Never really got why the baseball hall of fame is gatekept so hard.  it needs to be reformed. 

The answer as to why is because you have to write baseball for 10 years and they never take away your ballot, never provide guidance. So, you get a bunch of senile old fucks that are yearning for "baseball the way it used to be" in a romanticized way that wasn't ever real even when they were going through it, and only dimly remembered, and that dude is just way more likely to vote no than yes.  

Voting should be limited to only people actively working in the game- and should be extended to blogs, pods (not mine obviously) online stuff etc where the person has covered the game for 10 years at a level that's generally considered to be quality.  

[uoftorange 1391]

5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

He's not one of the 10 best pitchers or 100 best pitchers or 500 best pitchers of all time though.  That's his position, pitcher.  Period.  It's dumb that any closer (other than maybe Mariano) got in. It would be like if the NFL HOF started letting in "3rd down backs".  That's not a thing. It's not a position.  It's a specialist subset of an actual real position, running back.

That said- those morons made Mariano the only unanimous guy ever and he probably barely qualifies as like the 100th best pitcher in baseball- and they let in 7 other closers, so under that metric Wagner should certainly be in. 

 

No, RP is a position, as is SP.  Just like CF, LF, RF are all OFs and the other are IFs.  

He should be in, there is no rational argument against it.  Elite RPs make as much or more money than #2s in most cases.  And depending on years of service more than #1 starters.  

[formermav43 4628]

5 minutes ago, uoftorange said:

 

No, RP is a position, as is SP.  Just like CF, LF, RF are all OFs and the other are IFs.  

He should be in, there is no rational argument against it.  Elite RPs make as much or more money than #2s in most cases.  And depending on years of service more than #1 starters.  

RP is a separate position in the same way a PH is. Which is to say not at all.

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

34 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

RP is a separate position in the same way a PH is. Which is to say not at all.

Or third down back in football.  IT's a running back.  That is limited for whatever reason. So he can only be effective on third down. Just like a relief pitcher is a pitcher, that's limited, so they can only be effective in small doses.  It's dumb that it's in the hall beyond Mariano, who as the best to ever do it probably accumulated almost 70% of Curt Schillings value, and 15% more value than Roy O, to name two guys not in the Hall of Fame. 

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

43 minutes ago, uoftorange said:

 

No, RP is a position, as is SP.  Just like CF, LF, RF are all OFs and the other are IFs.  

He should be in, there is no rational argument against it.  Elite RPs make as much or more money than #2s in most cases.  And depending on years of service more than #1 starters.  

But yeah, by defninition a relief pitcher is a position, like LF for example, made up of a subset of people not good enough to play CF (or starting pitcher). So, that kind of works.  Nobody in the world moves a guy that can play a great CF over to LF or RF, just like nobody in the world moves a Pitcher to RP that's good enough to start.  Same with 3b, 2B and 1b as compared to SS.  But, the main driver of a guy that plays in the field is his bat- they fit those with a good enough bat into the hardest defensive positon they can handle.  

[UTexasFight 9817]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

also after looking at next year's first-time entries, wags will get 90%.  besides ichiro, nobody jumps off the page.

Lulz at the MLB caption calling this “stacked”.

 

 

 

unless this is a joke and they realize how awful it is and are using the term “stacked” literally… “here is the list of 1st time eligible players stacked on top of each other”

Edited January 24 by UTexasFight

[uoftorange 1391]

27 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

But yeah, by defninition a relief pitcher is a position, like LF for example, made up of a subset of people not good enough to play CF (or starting pitcher). So, that kind of works.  Nobody in the world moves a guy that can play a great CF over to LF or RF, just like nobody in the world moves a Pitcher to RP that's good enough to start.  Same with 3b, 2B and 1b as compared to SS.  But, the main driver of a guy that plays in the field is his bat- they fit those with a good enough bat into the hardest defensive positon they can handle.  

Factually not true.  Guys get moved out of CF that are excellent there all the time to save their bodies.  Springer for example.  Everyone thinks Judge should move and he likely will long term.  

Either way, you compare 3Bs to 3Bs and RPs to RPs for greatness.  Not every SP can be a closer, not every closer could be a SP.  And I agree by nature I'd value elite SP over elite RP, but there are plenty of non elite SPs in the hall.  

[WBT 20972]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

also after looking at next year's first-time entries, wags will get 90%.  besides ichiro, nobody jumps off the page.

Sabathia will probably get in with the nyy bump

[formermav43 4628]

37 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Nobody in the world moves a guy that can play a great CF over to LF or RF

[UTexasFight 9817]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The answer as to why is because you have to write baseball for 10 years and they never take away your ballot, never provide guidance. So, you get a bunch of senile old fucks that are yearning for "baseball the way it used to be" in a romanticized way that wasn't ever real even when they were going through it, and only dimly remembered, and that dude is just way more likely to vote no than yes.  

Voting should be limited to only people actively working in the game- and should be extended to blogs, pods (not mine obviously) online stuff etc where the person has covered the game for 10 years at a level that's generally considered to be quality.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

He's not one of the 10 best pitchers or 100 best pitchers or 500 best pitchers of all time though.  That's his position, pitcher.  Period.  It's dumb that any closer (other than maybe Mariano) got in. It would be like if the NFL HOF started letting in "3rd down backs".  That's not a thing. It's not a position.  It's a specialist subset of an actual real position, running back.

That said- those morons made Mariano the only unanimous guy ever and he probably barely qualifies as like the 100th best pitcher in baseball- and they let in 7 other closers, so under that metric Wagner should certainly be in. 

you’re arguing to take away the thing(s) that make the baseball HOF so great. Yes, they are the same things that make it so infuriating, (and yes I’d agree they need to limit the “honorary” members that aren’t still actively writing), but the game evolves  and I have no problem if voters have a subset for closer/relief pitcher and treat them differently than a starter.

The goal of the sport is to win games. I don’t care what you call his position. If you have a guy you can put in at the end of a close game that you lead and he guarantees your team leaves with a W more than 85% of the time, I’m finding a spot for that guy where we celebrate the “best of the best.”

[UTPhil2006 3930]

Harold Baines is in, Wagner for sure gets in. 

[Scraps 13799]

I mean Wagner did it to himself.  He should have pitched about 2 more seasons.  National guys I always hear complaining about how he only got 900 innings.  

He also had a fantastic year his final season 

[David Dennison 19536]

11 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I mean Wagner did it to himself.  He should have pitched about 2 more seasons.  National guys I always hear complaining about how he only got 900 innings.  

He also had a fantastic year his final season 

His postseason performance might be an issue.

Edited January 24 by David Dennison

[hornmpa96 2667]

They already made the decision to put relievers in the HOF. By almost every metric, Wagner stacks up extremely well against the RPs in the HOF today. It’s really an easy call and he should be in.

[hornmpa96 2667]

54 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

His postseason performance might be an issue.

That’s a small sample size (unfortunately).

[Focht Up 646]

I always wondered why the Astros didn't make Wagner a starter 

  I mean,  why wouldn't you want a guy like that to pitch more innings?

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

11 minutes ago, Focht Up said:

I always wondered why the Astros didn't make Wagner a starter 

  I mean,  why wouldn't you want a guy like that to pitch more innings?

He tried to be a starter. He want good enough. He couldn’t stay healthy or effective with 1.5 pitches multiple times through the lineup. He’s basically the case study for relievers aren’t as good as starters. 

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

3 hours ago, UTexasFight said:

 

 

you’re arguing to take away the thing(s) that make the baseball HOF so great. Yes, they are the same things that make it so infuriating, (and yes I’d agree they need to limit the “honorary” members that aren’t still actively writing), but the game evolves  and I have no problem if voters have a subset for closer/relief pitcher and treat them differently than a starter.

The goal of the sport is to win games. I don’t care what you call his position. If you have a guy you can put in at the end of a close game that you lead and he guarantees your team leaves with a W more than 85% of the time, I’m finding a spot for that guy where we celebrate the “best of the best.”

I already said it’s fine if you want to out RP in there I guess, and if you do he should be in. I only pushed back because someone called him a top 10 player at his position and he’s just not. The position is pitcher. You are just taking about usage pattern beyond that. 
Also go look up winning percentage for a team and you will find even exceptionally shitty closers have teams that win 85% of the time. 

[tx 3 putt 78676]

my LF

[henrygandorf 29225]

5 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Or third down back in football.  IT's a running back.  That is limited for whatever reason. So he can only be effective on third down. Just like a relief pitcher is a pitcher, that's limited, so they can only be effective in small doses.  It's dumb that it's in the hall beyond Mariano, who as the best to ever do it probably accumulated almost 70% of Curt Schillings value, and 15% more value than Roy O, to name two guys not in the Hall of Fame. 

if there was a stat like "3rd downs achieved" that people gave a shit about, your analogy would be better.  baseball is a stat game.  saves are a thing.  at least 2 guys got in the hof because at the time they had "the most saves of all time".  not because of innings, k's, bwar, or era+.

they are not the same.  

a better analogy would be if there was a d-lineman that was exclusively a pass-rusher, only played 10-15 snaps per game, and was just judged on sacks.  of course if you have a bunch of sacks, you probably go to the hall of fame.

Edited January 25 by henrygandorf

[HtownHorn 15234]

Joe Mauer is in the fucking HOF. The dude's career was over at 30, what the fuck is he doing in the HOF. Same with Helton, he was a good player, but was aided greatly by playing in Colorado. His splits are rather large. 3 Top 5 MVPs between the two of them. Neither should be in the HOF.

[henrygandorf 29225]

closers are like fg kickers.  they can come through and win lots of games but you really only pay attention if they fuck up.

i knew i would get there.

there are 4 pk in the hof.

[HtownHorn 15234]

4 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

closers are like fg kickers.  they can come through and win lots of games but you really only pay attention if they fuck up.

i knew i would get there.

there are 4 pk in the hof.

Tucker will be 5.

[Scraps 13799]

Joe Mauer is in the fucking HOF. The dude's career was over at 30, what the fuck is he doing in the HOF.

Not only is he in HOF he is first ballot with Bench and Pudge.

[Briuis 61]

No way in hell does Mauer deserve to be spoken in the the same breath of Pudge or Bench. That's the equivalent of putting Jason Kendall in the HOF. 

[formermav43 4628]

Joe Mauer is the 7th ranked catcher in JAWS. He’s 9th all time in WAR. He absolutely should be in.

Kendall isn’t even in the top 20 in either, for the record. 

[UTexasFight 9817]

How many HOFers on our ‘24 roster?

JV

Altuve

Yordan

Tucker?

Hader?

Whitley?!

[Briuis 61]

I realize comparing Kendall to Mauer is a slight exaggeration but they have JT Tealmuto below Kendall. I'd rather pay JT in his prime than Mauer.

[Fudge Nuggets 19455]

14 hours ago, formermav43 said:

RP is a separate position in the same way a PH is. Which is to say not at all.

Now do DH. 
 

Oh hai. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

He's not one of the 10 best pitchers or 100 best pitchers or 500 best pitchers of all time though.  That's his position, pitcher.  Period.  It's dumb that any closer (other than maybe Mariano) got in. It would be like if the NFL HOF started letting in "3rd down backs".  That's not a thing. It's not a position.  It's a specialist subset of an actual real position, running back.

That said- those morons made Mariano the only unanimous guy ever and he probably barely qualifies as like the 100th best pitcher in baseball- and they let in 7 other closers, so under that metric Wagner should certainly be in. 

so the BHOF is inconsistent( full of shit,) eh?

who knew?

[APMP 688]

Now do DH. 
 
Oh hai. 

Edgar Martinez comes to mind too, he was a 3B for just 3 seasons worth of games...

[UTPhil2006 3930]

10 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

Tucker will be 5.

And Dawson. And HG is correct. And Mariano, Hoffman, Lee etc are all deserved HOF and in 25 Wagner will join them. A RP is very valuable and the 22 postseason should have shown that. 

[UTPhil2006 3930]

9 hours ago, UTexasFight said:

How many HOFers on our ‘24 roster?

JV

Altuve

Yordan

Tucker?

Hader?

Whitley?!

According to 3putt Dubey and Julks too 

[Scraps 13799]

12 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

my LF

Putt conveniently left out that Chas was ranked #5 LF also because he hates him as much as Dusty does

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

so the BHOF is inconsistent( full of shit,) eh?

who knew?

Yep. Like Insaid- based upon their internal logic if you have 8 closers in he should be the 9th. 

[formermav43 4628]

Well you have people arguing that a top 10 player at his position all time doesn’t belong while in the same breath thinking it’s a travesty that a pitcher who was less valuable than literally hundreds of others was omitted.

I’m not sure anyone can claim to be particularly logical about this, writers or fans.

[Seasick Sailor 3747]

Just sitting here thinking about how much I fucking hate Dusty Baker:

 

[Scraps 13799]

I mean you are assuming Dubon isn't top 5 CF on the list sir

I think they do CF tonight


The public doesn't think so but I hear Putt is running The Shredder so lets see!

[tx 3 putt 78676]

Chas just might make up for some of the 15 wins we lose with maldonado 🤔🤔🤔

[Pimphand 6369]

On 1/23/2024 at 6:58 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

Latest episode of breathing orange fire is up. We talk Collin McHugh and of course, Josh Haders return and what that means. 
 

Spotify 

 

Gabe I'm with you the vast majority of the time on Astros stuff exceptions being Whitley & AJ Hinch.  Hinch being around already cost us one world series with the best team in club history.  All we needed was an owner like Tom Benson who had the cojones to let Gregg Williams take the fall and weathered the storm of keeping Sean Payton around during the suspension.  Instead we overreacted and the rest is history.... And in that context I would have been fine with letting Dusty have the 2020 season which was the intent all along we just caught a cast of the stupid which started with Crane overreacting.

Edited January 25 by Pimphand

[Guadaloopy 11129]

I was not mentally prepared for the irrational anger I feel towards Wulaw's anti-RP posts.

[Guadaloopy 11129]

7 minutes ago, Pimphand said:

Hinch being around already cost us one world series with the best team in club history.

Not this shit again!

Fucking thread has my BP spiking today.

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

51 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I was not mentally prepared for the irrational anger I feel towards Wulaw's anti-RP posts.

It’s irrational the anger. 
65 innings  will never be remotely as close to 200 innings in terms of value. 

52 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I was not mentally prepared for the irrational anger I feel towards Wulaw's anti-RP posts.

But I still love you and hope we can be friends. 

[Guadaloopy 11129]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s irrational the anger. 
65 innings  will never be remotely as close to 200 innings in terms of value. 

But I still love you and hope we can be friends. 

I was careful to say that it was the post that triggered my anger, not you.

[HtownHorn 15234]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s irrational the anger. 
65 innings  will never be remotely as close to 200 innings in terms of value. 

But I still love you and hope we can be friends. 

You had a point 20 years ago. The point is less valid when starting pitchers routinely get 2 turns through the lineup, if they are lucky.

[Wulaw Horn 19595]

54 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

You had a point 20 years ago. The point is less valid when starting pitchers routinely get 2 turns through the lineup, if they are lucky.

Yeah but guys in the bullpen also pitch less and less as well. Bullpen guys used to pitch damn near 100 innings now they go 60/70. So both sides are being limited in innings with the rise of 13 man pitching staffs. 

[Limp Brisket 549]

Meh, our shit is over by the 7th.  

[tx 3 putt 78676]

key players under club control for at least three more seasons:

Yordan Alvarez
Yainer Diaz
Jeremy Pena
Chas McCormick

Cristian Javier
Hunter Brown
Luis Garcia
Bryan Abreu
Josh Hader

[Scraps 13799]

I know the suspense is killing everyone...

Dubon did not make top 10 CFs