Kevin Durant Longhorn Legend

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

On 7/17/2021 at 2:14 AM, ztejas said:

This is interesting if nothing else:

https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-news-nets-kevin-durant-gets-into-heated-exchange-over-time-with-dubs/

Watch the 2 clips from that article. 

If I'm not his biggest fan - I'm close to it - but for him to cement his legacy I think he needs to win somewhere beside GS. If he racks off 2 straight in Brooklyn - and I think he's about to - he is one of the 10 greatest dudes ever. 

Love him or hate him he's one of the most enigmatic superstars we've seen in awhile. He's also the greatest athlete that has ever attended UT. 

Roger Clemens. 

[HookEm 2468]

Roger Clemens is somewhere in the 15-35 range in baseball.  Durant is at the top end of that range in just about everyone's rankings and is still climbing.  And he doesn't juice.

[hobbes2702 13078]

Clemens basically won 7 MVPs (Cy Young is equivalent) which is the most in history. There’s argument to be made that he’s one of the 5 best pitchers ever. I’m not making it but it certainly not crazy.

Im still taking KD though as the best we’ve ever had in terms of professional success.

[shadow_operative 15932]

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Clemens basically won 7 MVPs (Cy Young is equivalent) which is the most in history. There’s argument to be made that he’s one of the 5 best pitchers ever. I’m not making it but it certainly not crazy.

Im still taking KD though as the best we’ve ever had in terms of professional success.

you have to take KD because of the roids. we have no idea how authentic Clemens's stats and performances are. especially when you consider that it's KD >>> Clemens in terms of how great each one was at UT. my dad and I are actually going to do another podcast soon where we debate All-Time Texas teams, and he and I both agree that Clemens isn't even in the weekend rotation for the all time UT Baseball team. Clemens was really good in college, but not, "this guy will win 7 Cy Young Awards" good. KD is the real deal. Clemens is a cheater who used PED's his entire career. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by shadow_operative

[hobbes2702 13078]

25 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

you have to take KD because of the roids. we have no idea how authentic Clemens's stats and performances are. especially when you consider that it's KD >>> Clemens in terms of how great each one was at UT. my dad and I are actually going to do another podcast soon where we debate All-Time Texas teams, and he and I both agree that Clemens isn't even in the weekend rotation for the all time UT Baseball team. Clemens was really good in college, but not, "this guy will win 7 Cy Young Awards" good. KD is the real deal. Clemens is a cheater who used PED's his entire career. 

The PEDs mean zero to me. The whole league was juicing so who really cares. But you’re spot on about time at Texas. He wasn’t even the best pitcher on his own team let alone an all time 

[shadow_operative 15932]

 

[shadow_operative 15932]

that interview was the best i've seen in a very long time. they addressed so many things that i've wondered about, from the infamous argument between the two of them, to why KD spends so much time on twitter, to why he hasn't settled down and had kids yet. KD is so intelligent and has so many interesting things to say, but he isn't one to always be running his yap and telling you everything he's thinking. i found that interview to be illuminating, and i'm glad they sat down to do it. i love both of those guys, despite how popular it is to hate them, even around here.

and on that note, i will never forget how many people around here have called KD a piece of shit, said he's not a real Longhorn, said that they don't root for him/that they root against him, and who've just all around trashed him ever since he decided to leave OKC. you guys have gotten real quiet these last few years, but you said what you said, and you said it with your full chest. i find it interesting how quiet all of y'all are now. Team KD for life. 🤘🏼 

[C-Man 27285]

On 8/17/2021 at 2:21 PM, shadow_operative said:

you have to take KD because of the roids. we have no idea how authentic Clemens's stats and performances are. especially when you consider that it's KD >>> Clemens in terms of how great each one was at UT. my dad and I are actually going to do another podcast soon where we debate All-Time Texas teams, and he and I both agree that Clemens isn't even in the weekend rotation for the all time UT Baseball team. Clemens was really good in college, but not, "this guy will win 7 Cy Young Awards" good. KD is the real deal. Clemens is a cheater who used PED's his entire career. 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 2:48 PM, hobbes2702 said:

The PEDs mean zero to me. The whole league was juicing so who really cares. But you’re spot on about time at Texas. He wasn’t even the best pitcher on his own team let alone an all time 

Y'all are hilarious. Clemens was a two-time All-American at Texas after going 25-7 over two seasons (1982-83) and won a national championship. He was a 1st round pick and was a slam dunk HOF'er before he started juicing in MLB. The juice made him immortal, like Bonds. And like hobbes said, everybody else was doing it. He's on the Mt Rushmore of Texas pitchers along with some combination of Burt Hooton, Greg Swindell, Kirk Dressendorfer and Huston Street. (I'd include Brooks Kieschnick on the Mt Rushmore of all-time UT ballplayers regardless of position but he was a better hitter than he was a pitcher -- and he was a hell of a good pitcher.)

[C-Man 27285]

And Durant is a baby. I haven't watched the interview but read the ESPN.com article. For them to blame Kerr and management is silly. If they wanted to make it happen, they would've made it happen. But Durant, as he's wont to do, bounced at the first sign of adversity. It's what he does.

[shadow_operative 15932]

5 minutes ago, C-Man said:

And Durant is a baby. I haven't watched the interview but read the ESPN.com article. For them to blame Kerr and management is silly. If they wanted to make it happen, they would've made it happen. But Durant, as he's wont to do, bounced at the first sign of adversity. It's what he does.

wow this comes off poorly for you having watched the interview. KD and Draymond wanted to address the issues, Kerr and management wanted to sweep it under the rug and act like there no issues that needed addressing. but uh, dynamite take.

also, what, exactly did i say about Clemens that you disagree with? because you mocked it, but then you failed to actually address any of it. you're running your mouth a lot here without backing up any of it. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Being a top 5 pitcher and top 10 player of all time in baseball is way bigger deal than the 10th next basketball player of all time when you look at one sport having 150 year history with 100 of it being as the national passtime. 
I love KD. That’s not a slight at all on him. Basketball is a Johnny come lately sport with 50 years at a high level. Baseball is just more historically significant. It’s not a knock on KD it’s a ringing endorsement of how great Clemens was as a pro. 
there’s precious few schools who can claim top 10 all timers in 2 sports. It’s funny that Texas doesn’t have one of those guys in football being that we are a football school, but there you are. 

[MotownHorn 1798]

More bitchass shit from KD

"It's management's fault we were butthurt babies and didn't work through this issue like men!"

Give me a fucking break.

[MotownHorn 1798]

Did management tell them they weren't allowed to discuss it?

All that happened is some time went by, these guys realized how stupid the whole thing was, and now they're trying to blame others for their own failures.

Bitchass shit as per usual

[Kermit 3159]

When Days of Our Lives returns…

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

More bitchass shit from KD

"It's management's fault we were butthurt babies and didn't work through this issue like men!"

Give me a fucking break.

 

 

[shadow_operative 15932]

1 hour ago, MotownHorn said:

Did management tell them they weren't allowed to discuss it?

All that happened is some time went by, these guys realized how stupid the whole thing was, and now they're trying to blame others for their own failures.

Bitchass shit as per usual

if you're going to be such a bitchass about this then i'm gonna need you to remove the word "Horn" from your name. MotownTwat sounds nice.

Edited August 19, 2021 by shadow_operative

[C-Man 27285]

wow this comes off poorly for you having watched the interview. KD and Draymond wanted to address the issues, Kerr and management wanted to sweep it under the rug and act like there no issues that needed addressing. but uh, dynamite take.
also, what, exactly did i say about Clemens that you disagree with? because you mocked it, but then you failed to actually address any of it. you're running your mouth a lot here without backing up any of it. 

I took issue with you and Hobbes downplaying how good Clemens was at Texas. He was an AA both years and won a national title. To say he’s not in UT’s all-time weekend rotation is absurd. (And I think he’s a major league asshole.)

I likely won’t watch the KD/Green interview because I don’t really like either one of them. Blaming Kerr and the GM is weak. That it was ever a big deal points out what big babies both Draymond and Durant are. If they wanted to make it work, they would’ve figured shit out and made it work. Durant’s feelings were hurt so he took his ball and went home — again.

[shadow_operative 15932]

19 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I took issue with you and Hobbes downplaying how good Clemens was at Texas. He was an AA both years and won a national title. To say he’s not in UT’s all-time weekend rotation is absurd. (And I think he’s a major league asshole.)
 

my dad doesn't think it's absurd, and he knows as much as/more about UT baseball than anyone. he was involved with the baseball program from the 70's through the 90's, and he doesn't have Roger in his weekend rotation, so your contention that his opinion is "absurd" holds no weight with me. Hooton and Swindell are locks for the friday and saturday starters, which leaves only one final spot to choose between Dressendorfer, Schiraldi, Gideon, Kieschnick, Jungmann, Wortham, Clemens, and Gleaton, among others. the idea that it would be "absurd" to pick one of those guys ahead of Clemens is just dumb. 

FTR, he and i both picked Dressendorfer as our sunday starter, and my dad says he also has Gideon ahead of Clemens as far as his sunday starter goes. 

A two-time first team All-American, Gideon led Texas to the 1975 National Championship with a stellar 17-0 record and 1.80 ERA. The 17 wins that season are tied for the fourth-most by a Texas pitcher in a single season. The year prior, in 1974, Gideon won a Longhorns record-tying 19 games.

Edited August 19, 2021 by shadow_operative

[hobbes2702 13078]

It’s Dressendorfer, Schiraldi, Clemens in that order imo for the 3rd spot. But someone start a thread about this stuff on the baseball board not in the KD thread.

[SilasCoade 2622]

Agree that the Clemens shit needs to go on another thread but I do want to point out the absurdity that KD is downgraded in Texas athletics pantheon for his personality while Clemens, a legendary asshole and known cheater, is lauded.

[Mole 4333]

I enjoyed the interview. KD’s perspective on basketball is intriguing to me. My armchair view is that he’s largely motivated a kind of basketball self-actualization rather than simply the pursuit of victory. Great play and winning often go hand in hand, but there’s a difference in motivation.

The way he talked about the beauty of Kyrie’s game, his high school experience, his reasons for joining the Warriors, etc., he wants to win, but he seems more motivated by a more abstracted version of great basketball.

I know we like to romanticize the sociopathic zero-sum hypercompetitiveness of players like MJ, but I appreciate the purity of basketball for its own sake.

Or maybe I’m reading too much into it.

Their discussion about the argument and management seemed to be a bit of a rationalization and oversimplification. It didn’t feel fully genuine to me. Sometimes we have to tell ourselves lies to make peace with people we like and respect. No biggie to me.

[shadow_operative 15932]

it seemed to me as if that was the first time that the two of them had ever talked about the situation, and Draymond's response looked to me to be a totally genuine, "that's interesting, because that's exactly what i said/how i feel." when you have two alpha males like that, with neither one of them feeling like he's in the wrong, then some mediation/airing of grievances is necessary. i totally agree with Dray and KD that that's where Kerr and management should have stepped in, gotten everything out in the open,  and let everyone's side be heard (including their teammates) so that everyone can hopefully move forward and be done with it.

that's the two biggest personalities in the locker room, and two of the biggest personalities in the league, getting to a point where everything spills over and there's this huge, public altercation, and instead of the head of the family (Kerr/management) bringing the family together to talk it out, everyone just decided to try and pretend like there were no issues, which is a terrible idea. this isn't a new problem in pro sports, and there's nothing bitchass about the way that KD and Dray handled it (where is the supposed team leader Steph Curry and his Splash Brother Klay in all of this? oh that's right, they're ignoring it and hoping it will go away like a couple of bitchasses). Kerr and the GS brass dropped the ball on that one.

[immortal13 4059]

Fuck baseball

[statsman 5486]

I was on campus for the ‘83 CWS win. Yep, Clemens was not the number one starter in that rotation, and at the same time, he was the prospect the pros were most interested in. In other words, the other guys (memory- Schiraldi and Ruffin?) were better in the college game in ‘83, and Clemens had more potential (obviously). 

[Baboontyme 2825]

I loved the interview. LOVED it. I understand what makes Draymond tick, and I've got a ton of love for him (aside from the fact that we went to the same school). But man KD is fascinating. Such great insight into the way he thinks. I loved your post above @Mole and it vibes with my thinking. 

Derka - check out the All the Smoke episode with Draymond from March-ish of 2020. That was one-sided from Draymond's perspective, but I believe they also talked about it at some point this past season. (Edit: it was when KD had Draymond on his podcast a few months ago) I think it's great that it's water under the bridge to both of them. But I suspect that they're kind of still side-stepping some awkwardness and pretending it doesn't exist but neither wants to acknowledge it, so they downplay it. I think they're both way over it, but I don't think either of them really want to admit how that incident and those attitudes at that time affected things. 

They are probably ultimately right that if they would have kept that in the lockeroom and let things air out there it may have resolved itself. I wonder how the dynamic with Steph and Klay may have played into all of that. I don't know as much about KD's background as I do DG's, but these are two cats from the hood I think (inner city DC), and I know Draymond wouldn't back down from a fight with The Mountain. I wonder if the fact that Steph and Klay are a little more laid back may have played into that weird vibe and kept things from airing out in the moment? I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, just speculating. 

My personal opinion is that the team did know that KD was done with GSW as soon as the year ended, and it definitely played a factor in team chemistry and fatigue. Just a big elephant in the room. I think that stress led to the blowup, and I think the blowup pretty much cemented the fact that KD was going to seek a new challenge. I also think these two dudes are really, really close now because I know KD is ultra petty and wouldn't share an Olympic floor with the dude, let alone an interview space, if there was any bad blood. 

All in all, I'm not sure blaming anyone is really necessary or proper. It happened, and they've moved on, and I love that they are willing to give us glimpses behind the scenes. I'm a huge hoops nerd but I find stuff like this fascinating. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Baboontyme

[Eskimohorn 5644]

my dad doesn't think it's absurd, and he knows as much as/more about UT baseball than anyone. he was involved with the baseball program from the 70's through the 90's, and he doesn't have Roger in his weekend rotation, so your contention that his opinion is "absurd" holds no weight with me. Hooton and Swindell are locks for the friday and saturday starters, which leaves only one final spot to choose between Dressendorfer, Schiraldi, Gideon, Kieschnick, Jungmann, Wortham, Clemens, and Gleaton, among others. the idea that it would be "absurd" to pick one of those guys ahead of Clemens is just dumb. 
FTR, he and i both picked Dressendorfer as our sunday starter, and my dad says he also has Gideon ahead of Clemens as far as his sunday starter goes. 
A two-time first team All-American, Gideon led Texas to the 1975 National Championship with a stellar 17-0 record and 1.80 ERA. The 17 wins that season are tied for the fourth-most by a Texas pitcher in a single season. The year prior, in 1974, Gideon won a Longhorns record-tying 19 games.

Well, folks…Daddy’s wrong again!

[MotownHorn 1798]

22 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

if you're going to be such a bitchass about this then i'm gonna need you to remove the word "Horn" from your name. MotownTwat sounds nice.

Sure. Just as soon as your change your name to AspergersRambler

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Clemens is 8th all time in War. 4th amongst pitchers. 4th since world war 2 and integration. He’s a top 10 all time guy. He’s the second greatest baseball player who went to college, behind only Barry Bonds. 
KD and Clemens are the best 1/2 punch of any college in different major sports. That’s pretty cool. But Clemens is better as of right now as a pro. I like KD a lot more btw. 
And now I will forever refrain from commenting again on this tangent. 

[Mole 4333]

It’s a fun question for probably a different thread, but my quick nomination for “best 1/2 punch of any college for different major sports” is UNC MJ/LT. There are probably other good ones, but I’m not sure if it’s possible to top that one.

[Mole 4333]

Other nominees that don’t quite meet the standard: Brady/CWebb, Kareem/Aikman, Montana/Yaz sort of, Bonds/Harden, Golden Bear/Havlicek/tOSU.

Tiger/Elway is pretty good.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Mole

[Baboontyme 2825]

Magic/Brian Hoyer

Check and mate

 

[formermav43 4606]

4 hours ago, Mole said:

It’s a fun question for probably a different thread, but my quick nomination for “best 1/2 punch of any college for different major sports” is UNC MJ/LT. There are probably other good ones, but I’m not sure if it’s possible to top that one.

You could take the second greatest player and have MJ/Peppers and that’s still as good or better than your other list.

[shadow_operative 15932]

McGwire/OJ. one is a cheater and a liar, the other is a murderer; but both are all time greats.

[shadow_operative 15932]

Jim Brown and Jim Brown.

[shadow_operative 15932]

Gayle Sayers and Wilt.

[Rockwell Torrey 1302]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

Jim Brown and Jim Brown.

Well played.  They say he was the greatest lacrosse player of all time; changed the rules because he was so dominant.

[LTtxfan 49373]

 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

11 hours ago, Mole said:

Other nominees that don’t quite meet the standard: Brady/CWebb, Kareem/Aikman, Montana/Yaz sort of, Bonds/Harden, Golden Bear/Havlicek/tOSU.

Tiger/Elway is pretty good.

 

I did say 3 major sports, so... But damn, I think TIger/Elway might be the winner if you want to go beyond the 3 major sports.  That's really really good.  Elway is a top 20 all timer in the most competitive sport due to numbers, and Tiger is at worst the second best golfer ever- with bonus points for being the only golfer to ever be the transcendent sports star in America of our time.  TIger from 1997-2008 was the biggest star in America.  That's serious bonus points.  

 

That's another fun game you could play- pass the torch for the biggest "star" athlete in America.  Off the top of my head in my lifetime where I can actually remember sports (starting in about 1984 or so) I'd go (if you have to go 3 or 5 year chunks) I'd go Joe Montana ---> Michael Jordan -----> Barry Bonds/Tiger Woods ------->Kobe Bryant/Peyton Manning--------> Lebron James --------> Tom Brady. 

Special mention for guys that burned really bright but I couldn't consider the "story" in sports for an extended period of time with mega star status for Lance Armstrong, Michael Phelps, Vince Young (that 2005 football season and that title game were the high point of college football for this Century so far- and I say this with very little bias I think)

Then you have your next tier down of mega super duper stars that just weren't ever "the biggest star in America" with guys like Jeter (story- not actual baseball talent) ARod etc.

This is half assed pulled out of my ass- I'm sure everyone else can do a much better job of it than I just did which is what would make it a fun game...

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

12 hours ago, Mole said:

It’s a fun question for probably a different thread, but my quick nomination for “best 1/2 punch of any college for different major sports” is UNC MJ/LT. There are probably other good ones, but I’m not sure if it’s possible to top that one.

LT was awesome. Do you have him in the top 10 football players of all time? I don't think I do, but I could be wrong. It is sooooo hard to put together an all time list for football players.  QB is so much more important than every other position, it's hard to rank OL.  RB's are a part of their eco system more than creating the eco system themselves and how do you assign credit for importance between a great WR or a great defensive end?  Who's more important- the best left tackle of all time or the greatest TE of all time.  It makes my head hurt.  Baseball and basketball are so much easier to quantify.  

[Underdog 28785]

KD/Earl? 

[Mole 4333]

There’s a good case for LT as the greatest defensive player of all time.  Teams game-planned against him like you would Montana, Rice, or Barry Sanders. He changed the game as much as any player ever. He’s still the last defensive player to win NFL MVP and only one of two to ever do so.

I’d put MJ/LT over Tiger/Elway, but maybe it depends on your perspective of the value of QBs then vs. today. Jim Brown/Jim Brown is probably it’s own special category of madness.

My heart says team Texas should be KD/Earl but my head says it’s probably KD/Clemens. I don’t think either team catches UNC or Stanford if you include golf.

[hobbes2702 13078]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:37 PM, Underdog said:

KD/Earl? 

Really surprised this is Earl’s first mention. Offensive POTY in his first three seasons, rookie of the year, MVP in year 2. Really just a grown man from the moments he stepped into the league

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Really surprised this is Earl’s first mention. Offensive POTY in his first three seasons, rookie of the year, MVP in year 2. Really just a grown man from the moments he stepped into the league

Earls great, earls awesome, earl walks on water. He couldn’t sniff KD or Clemens jock in pro accomplishments. He’s a fringe HOF due to how short his peak and prime were. KD and Clemens are inner circle HOF all timer generational guys. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

15 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Earls great, earls awesome, earl walks on water. He couldn’t sniff KD or Clemens jock in pro accomplishments. He’s a fringe HOF due to how short his peak and prime were. KD and Clemens are inner circle HOF all timer generational guys. 

this is true- but only because we are talking about career accomplishments/all-time standing in one's respective sport. Earl > Roger in terms of straight up dominance at one's peak. Roger Clemens has an insane career ledger/CV. Earl was a legit freak of nature. i hate to keep bringing up my dad, but his words does sway me a ton, and he says that Earl was the first player he ever saw who could have gone straight from HS to the NFL. i believe my dad added one other guy to that list somewhere along the way (AD maybe?), but yeah- Earl at Texas/early NFL career is like top 5-10 most dominant players ever. a freak among men. 

[Baboontyme 2825]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I find it surprising anyone can walk away from that segment of the interview and conclude that DG and KD didn’t fuck that up. They blamed Kerr and the GM, and it contributed to KD leaving. I don’t know what Kerr and the GM did or didn’t do; for two grown men veterans not to sit down independently and hash it out is exactly why those two guys aren’t really liked. So DG never spoke with KD because Kerr and the GM wanted to make him apologize?  That shows DG’s ego and stubbornness. So KD left in some part because of dissension on the team from that argument?  That shows KD’s ego and stubbornness. 

I found little in the interview where I walked away liking KD better. I like Dray’s personality better and have from his TNT time. But KD didn’t do anything to endear himself. 

I don't think this is how it went. Draymond talks a little more about it - I think it was on that All the Smoke episode. He apologized. But he won't say it in as many words because he and KD wanted to keep that conversation between the two of them. There was also some sort of convoluted logic in there somewhere I believe about him refusing to apologize just because team brass told him to. If I recall he said he was still steamed about it for a few days before he realized he fucked up. Also interesting is he's very close with Myers. He said he joked about it with Myers after the fact like "He's fucking KD! If he wants me gone I'll pack my bags". I don't really get their logic about Myers and Kerr messing things up but I also don't think this will affect his relationship with either one at all. 

[statsman 5486]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Earls great, earls awesome, earl walks on water. He couldn’t sniff KD or Clemens jock in pro accomplishments. He’s a fringe HOF due to how short his peak and prime were. KD and Clemens are inner circle HOF all timer generational guys. 

I’m going to cut you some slack, because it’s clear you weren’t watching pro football while Earl was playing. Back then, RBs we’re considered as vital as QBs for a championship team. For his first three seasons, Earl was the best in the game. He was NFL offensive player of the game his first three seasons. He was league MVP his second season. He was no fringe HOFer- he made the HoF on his first season eligible and is named to the league’s all century team. 

[Braff Zacklin 13665]

**were

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

21 minutes ago, statsman said:

I’m going to cut you some slack, because it’s clear you weren’t watching pro football while Earl was playing. Back then, RBs we’re considered as vital as QBs for a championship team. For his first three seasons, Earl was the best in the game. He was NFL offensive player of the game his first three seasons. He was league MVP his second season. He was no fringe HOFer- he made the HoF on his first season eligible and is named to the league’s all century team. 

Earl Campbell is one of the top 10 running backs in NFL history. KD and Roger Clemens are each one of the 10 best players to ever play their sport. It’s not close. Earl was a comet that burned bright and then burnt out. That’s just not top 10 of all time resume. 

[statsman 5486]

48 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Earl Campbell is one of the top 10 running backs in NFL history. KD and Roger Clemens are each one of the 10 best players to ever play their sport. It’s not close. Earl was a comet that burned bright and then burnt out. That’s just not top 10 of all time resume. 

Bill James once wrote a breakdown of HoF suitability, placing players in tiers. His suggestion was that tier 1 was for players that were arguably the greatest player ever in the game. In basketball, that’s Jordan, LeBron, Wilt and maybe Jabbar. In football, that’s Jim Brown. I don’t know who else ever entered the conversation. 
  
Tier 2 is for players who were arguably the best player in the game while they were active. That’s KD. And that’s Earl. 
  
Tier 3 is for players who were arguably the best ever at their position. Tier 4 is for players who were arguably the best at their position while they were playing. 
  
I’m not looking to downgrade Clemens. I just don’t think you get just how big a deal Earl was. He took an Oilers team to the AFC championship game twice, losing each time to the eventual Super Bowl Champ, and that Oilers team was QBed by Dan Pastorini. This guy was no fringe HoFer, not by any measure. 

[UTDD 362]

I kind of think of Earl a little like a lesser accomplished version of Shaq -- amazing peak, completely dominant, but his career resume didn't really match his true talent.  I think Shaq to a lesser extent also didn't fulfill his true potential.  It's hard for me to compare baseball players so easily given the specialization, but obviously Clemens' career accomplishments are about as good as they get for a pitcher.    

I tried off the top of my head to rattle off ten great running backs and literally right now had Brown, Sanders, Payton, Emmitt, Dickerson, Campbell, Faulk, Tomlinson, Sayers, and O.J -- probably missing someone important or two, (like I just thought of Bo Jackson, another great RB cut down by injury) but I think Campbell (for me) belongs there.