What is the point of prayer

[MissingInAction 25,037]

To me prayer is an admission that one is powerless. That is a very dangerous way to live. Not only to the one praying but to those around them as well.

Fuck it, it's God's will lol.

Man fuck you. Man up and take responsibility.

Edited November 2, 2023 by MissingInAction

[Rimbo 25,919]

21 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Can a person not believe in him and still be allowed in the bitching afterlife techno club?

 I mean, you'd be pretty welcome at my church. I've met a handful who are there just because the congregation is good company, and not because they believe. As one (late, RIP) friend said, "Our beliefs are: Ehh."

Lotta folks want it to be the Exclusive Country Club where ya do the magic handshake, pay the toll, speak the words and boom, you're in. But I'm pretty sure it's an exclusive not because you did the rituals and said the things but rather because you chose to live your life a certain way. Whether or not you had the "right" beliefs (or went to the "right" church) doesn't factor into it at all.

Also, this should probably be in Cloak Room, not DT, but whatevs.

 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

Just now, MissingInAction said:

To me prayer is an admission that one is powerless. That is a very dangerous way to live. Not only to the prayer, but to those around prayer.

Fuck it, it's God's will lol.

Man fuck you. Man up and take responsibility.

There are plenty of people who pray that way, and believe that way.

That is horribad theology - I mean, if you are an actual Christian, it's STILL an unsupportable approach and completely at odds with the faith.  It deprives you of agency....which is literally one of the things that defines the purported Christian relationship with God.

95% of the "Christian" belief you see being put into practice is horribad theology, and is really people using "religion" as an excuse to act or be the way they want to be.  You can tell someone who is actually trying to live the Way because they are struggling, it's hard, and they are having to put others before themselves.  They don't get it right, either (none of us do, or can), but they're at least aiming in the right direction.

[Patricio Swayze 17,058]

Well, I prayed about which forum to put it in…

[Brisketexan 105,095]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

 I mean, you'd be pretty welcome at my church. I've met a handful who are there just because the congregation is good company, and not because they believe. As one (late, RIP) friend said, "Our beliefs are: Ehh."

Lotta folks want it to be the Exclusive Country Club where ya do the magic handshake, pay the toll, speak the words and boom, you're in. But I'm pretty sure it's an exclusive not because you did the rituals and said the things but rather because you chose to live your life a certain way. Whether or not you had the "right" beliefs (or went to the "right" church) doesn't factor into it at all.

Also, this should probably be in Cloak Room, not DT, but whatevs.

 

I've always thought and often said that if heaven or whatever the goal is comes because you checked a box on a membership form, say the magic words, and that's that, versus a place for people who live good lives of kindness and decency, and in fact, those kind and decent people are excluded if they didn't check a box and say the exact right mumbo jumbo, well fuck it - I don't wanna go to any such place anyway.   Your "heaven" is a place for hypocritical legalistic dicks, which means that your heaven is a perfect description of my hell.  You can have it.

[F250 28,767]

20 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Enjoying the answers. Both the serious and comical.

Can we circle back around to pray requests? Like “hey everyone, little Johnny was diagnosed with elephantitus of the balls, please pray for his cure and speedy recovery”.

How does that work? Do people believe their God takes into consideration the number of prayers he gets on a subject?

I am sure when God sees Aggy praying for a national championship he is “fo fuck’s sake, not this shit again.”

This brings up the conundrum of immutability vs. petition and intercession type of prayers.

[MissingInAction 25,037]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There are plenty of people who pray that way, and believe that way.

That is horribad theology - I mean, if you are an actual Christian, it's STILL an unsupportable approach and completely at odds with the faith.  It deprives you of agency....which is literally one of the things that defines the purported Christian relationship with God.

95% of the "Christian" belief you see being put into practice is horribad theology, and is really people using "religion" as an excuse to act or be the way they want to be.  You can tell someone who is actually trying to live the Way because they are struggling, it's hard, and they are having to put others before themselves.  They don't get it right, either (none of us do, or can), but they're at least aiming in the right direction.

Thank you for the perspective. 

We need to do another CannonBall run soon.

[YGIFS 19,450]

If done for yourself, it's as powerful as self-talk, meditation, transcendence, yoga, focused mindfulness, etc.  The "we only use 10% of our brains" cliche is bullshit.  You're running Terra-bytes of activity at any one given time, it's just that what you're consciously aware of is a small fraction of that.  I believe, and know, that if I center my thoughts and energies in any of the above forms, I can harness my subconscious to help me.  I can call into action the ability to enable good behaviors and thoughts and avoid bad ones, but having the software run properly in the background while I go about my day.  We've been doing it for tens of thousands of years.  What we call prayer has been around for a long, long time...way before religion.  

I think about one degree beyond that is still valid.  I can "pray" for somebody close to me.  Not someone I can necessarily control, but can influence.  I can "pray" that I am a better husband or that my mom feels less sick or my daughters feel more empowered.  The prayer or meditative self-talk doesn't directly impact them, but it tacitly calls into action speech and actions on my part that may help those in my immediate vicinity feel more love and positivity from me so that they turn that energy into something positive for themselves and feel better and do better.  After that degree though, I think it's all bullshit.  Praying for an end to war, or hunger, or the lives of unborn or whatever the fuck.  It's farcical.  Ostensibly charging myself with being a little less negative and a little more helpful each day will certainly guide my day and control my addictions.  With some guidance and direction, it can even help lift those immediately around me.  After that, it's a fucking con game.  

If prayer beyond ourselves and those in our immediate circle of influence had 0.0000001% effectiveness, we'd probably---just maybe---just maybe on a wing and a prayer---not have so many room fulls of dead chlidren with faces mangled beyond recognition.  But as Reverend David Cross once said, you go on and you pray the shit outta that prayer.  It's a most bizarre contest for the stupid among us.  

But it comes in many forms for us all...at the foot of my bed, or in a parking lot, or at sunrise in the grass---I shut out the noise and focus my heart and mind onto what I need to do to be better that day for myself and those around me.  Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to God, other times the Universe/Mother Nature, other times myself, other times the voices in my head.  Either way, I fail miserably each and every time.  But there is great benefit to taking stock of what's going right and what needs doing better.  Shit, half the time I write it out which is oddly not to this day recognized as a form of prayer by most Judeo-Christian sects.  Breathe and tell yourself to be better.  Then take swift action to that effect.  Sure beats shooting your way out...

[Brisketexan 105,095]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

This brings up the conundrum of immutability vs. petition and intercession type of prayers.

Also, I went to Catholic school, so I mostly used our prayer time to check out the cute girls praying around me.  I might have prayed a time or two that Jenny would wear a more see-through bra.

You commune with God your way, I'll commune with God my way.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Brisketexan

[F250 28,767]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, I went to Catholic school, so I mostly used our prayer time to check out the cute girls praying around me.  I might have prayed a time or two that Jenny would wear a more see-through bra.

You commune with God your way, I'll commune with God my way.

Once while playing CYO baseball in the 5th grade, I took a ball right to head while playing first base. The field we were on was right next to the school buildings and I saw a girl I had a crush on. Older 7th grade girl, flowing brown hair in the Catholic school girl uniform. I was in awe. Just mesmerized.

Then I hear "F250!" followed by a blow to the head from our short stop trying to throw a runner out. Tunnel vision and ringing in the ears followed.

Lesson learned. Always keep your eyes on the ball.

[MissingInAction 25,037]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, I went to Catholic school, so I mostly used our prayer time to check out the cute girls praying around me.  I might have prayed a time or two that Jenny would wear a more see-through bra.

You commune with God your way, I'll commune with God my way.

I too, had a Jenny.

[Willfully Horn 8,008]

[morehornsepower 887]

1 hour ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Enjoying the answers. Both the serious and comical.

Can we circle back around to pray requests? Like “hey everyone, little Johnny was diagnosed with elephantitus of the balls, please pray for his cure and speedy recovery”.

How does that work? Do people believe their God takes into consideration the number of prayers he gets on a subject?

I am sure when God sees Aggy praying for a national championship he is “fo fuck’s sake, not this shit again.”

For me, I tend to think that God has bigger things in mind than the things we typically pray for.  And, as mentioned, free will is our blessing and our curse.  My prayers for little Johnny would be more along the lines of "let this pass him by, if it fits in your plans, or grant his family peace if it is his time".

I think a lot of it is meditative.  The act of expressing your thanks and/or your needs can be very healthy & centering.  YMMV

[morehornsepower 887]

40 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

If done for yourself, it's as powerful as self-talk, meditation, transcendence, yoga, focused mindfulness, etc.  The "we only use 10% of our brains" cliche is bullshit.  You're running Terra-bytes of activity at any one given time, it's just that what you're consciously aware of is a small fraction of that.  I believe, and know, that if I center my thoughts and energies in any of the above forms, I can harness my subconscious to help me.  I can call into action the ability to enable good behaviors and thoughts and avoid bad ones, but having the software run properly in the background while I go about my day.  We've been doing it for tens of thousands of years.  What we call prayer has been around for a long, long time...way before religion.  

I think about one degree beyond that is still valid.  I can "pray" for somebody close to me.  Not someone I can necessarily control, but can influence.  I can "pray" that I am a better husband or that my mom feels less sick or my daughters feel more empowered.  The prayer or meditative self-talk doesn't directly impact them, but it tacitly calls into action speech and actions on my part that may help those in my immediate vicinity feel more love and positivity from me so that they turn that energy into something positive for themselves and feel better and do better.  After that degree though, I think it's all bullshit.  Praying for an end to war, or hunger, or the lives of unborn or whatever the fuck.  It's farcical.  Ostensibly charging myself with being a little less negative and a little more helpful each day will certainly guide my day and control my addictions.  With some guidance and direction, it can even help lift those immediately around me.  After that, it's a fucking con game.  

If prayer beyond ourselves and those in our immediate circle of influence had 0.0000001% effectiveness, we'd probably---just maybe---just maybe on a wing and a prayer---not have so many room fulls of dead chlidren with faces mangled beyond recognition.  But as Reverend David Cross once said, you go on and you pray the shit outta that prayer.  It's a most bizarre contest for the stupid among us.  

But it comes in many forms for us all...at the foot of my bed, or in a parking lot, or at sunrise in the grass---I shut out the noise and focus my heart and mind onto what I need to do to be better that day for myself and those around me.  Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to God, other times the Universe/Mother Nature, other times myself, other times the voices in my head.  Either way, I fail miserably each and every time.  But there is great benefit to taking stock of what's going right and what needs doing better.  Shit, half the time I write it out which is oddly not to this day recognized as a form of prayer by most Judeo-Christian sects.  Breathe and tell yourself to be better.  Then take swift action to that effect.  Sure beats shooting your way out...

You said it much more eloquently than I, but I'm right with you on this...

[F250 28,767]

27 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I too, had a Jenny.

 

[Guest]

I have @ co-worker who makes it a point to let EVERYFUCKINGBODY know how much he is praying for you.

It’s such a fucking charade of virtue. It drives me nuts and I am a believer, myself. Complete fraud.

Matthew 6: 5-8

Prayer should be a deeply personal thing, IMHO. It’s between you and God.  Not everyone else.

Edited November 2, 2023 by slorch

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

A lot of people have gotten into the theological stuff, I would add that for many, the practice of regular prayer with an open and earnest heart to God is seen as a discipline to help align yourself to acceptance and understanding of what God can or will provide. 
 

I also like the sociology of things and would say that religious cultures exist. It is likely that your neighbor, through years of experience and osmosis, has internalized that offering to pray for someone or about something is the favored way of expressing concern and affection for people, particularly in situations where there is little control or concrete action to take. This can easily slip into gross triteness, like thoughts and prayers after a school shooting.  At the interpersonal level, though, I am a fan of social graces and code and find them to usually be meaningful. 
 

So if your neighbor is the type of Protestant most often found in Texas and the South, here is how I would translate that statement:

”I like you and your family and hope that you will stay because we enjoy your company and presence.  I do recognize that a move might be best and so I am going to also hope/trust in God that the best outcome will happen for you.” 
 

So it’s a really nice sentiment and by linking it to faith, which is likely central to her, she is expressing that you are also important to her. 

[MissingInAction 25,037]

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

 

That's very accurate.

[Gatorubet 30,211]

Prayer is a form of communication with God.  He listens but the answers aren't always what we want, when  or how we want them. 

I’m not trying to be a dick, but I’m just pointing out that of course there’s nothing you have that can substantiate that He listens.   As a five-year-old I had the most fervent, honest, believing and compelling prayer one can imagine, but my parakeet still died.    So as a kid, I thought, did he listen? Does he hate parakeets? I was told “the ways of God are mysterious.”  I did not buy it then. 
So the problem many people have is, I could announce that the Holy Beach Ball in the Lawn Chair in My Backyard is an all knowing, omnipotent being who listens to all of our prayers.   If I have enough people on board with that theology, through simple statistics many of the things people are praying for will come to pass.  That will be faith producing in a lot of those people.   Now, if the Holy Beach Ball in the Lawn Chair in My Backyard does NOT grant me that which I have been praying for, I can say He listens…but maybe not what we want, when or how we want them.
I have a former coworker who was the queen of laying everything on God. She thought of God as the ultimate micromanager, who is so enthralled with her than every second he was watching what she was doing, and guiding her actions. So when she was eventually let go, she announced that “God had had opened another door for me”  Another coworker said, “No, not really, but it’s better not to be late 15 out of 20 days.  That’s not God opening a door, that’s you not getting out of bed.” 
Which is all to say, I’m not suggesting  that prayer is not a good practice, that spirituality is not a wonderful thing, that meditation and thinking about yourself and others is not helpful and beneficial to yourself and the whole community.  The problem comes about when people essentially disassociate their own behavior from consequences and attribute everything to a higher being. Often prayer is used as a means of avoiding consequences for your actions, or in the case of gun control, for ignoring inaction.   When it comes to opposition to laws that could reduce mass shootings, the only thing I think about when someone says they are praying for the victims is that I want to punch them. That is, if the one praying is opposing reasonable gun laws.  
I like prayer. I like people praying for me, it touches me. But it’s like the old joke about the drowning man who keeps praying to be saved by God, ignoring offered aid because God will save him,  and after he drowns God says, “I sent you three boats.”
Prayer without action is theological masturbation.

[Sbbruin 21,842]

4 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm going to triple wish

You can't triple wish a double wish Lloyd!

[TwiceHorn 31,450]

I'll give you a "practical spirituality" answer.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous asks that people seeking recovery find a "higher power."  For most people, that's an Abrahamic God, or some other traditional deity because that's how they were raised..  But it doesn't have to be.

For addicts in recovery, the key to it is acknowledging that "we don't run this shit."  We don't and can't control other people and things.  It helps us and is vital to understanding our proper place in the world.  For whatever reason, a pretty uniform part of the insanity that drives us back to drinking and drugging is the inability to control and otherwise deal with and accept the world as it is.

We are also asked to pray/meditate and seek conscious contact with that higher power to obtain serenity and for "guidance" on doing the next right thing. I suppose that aspect of it is like any other type of meditation that seeks what the Buddhists call "mindfulness."

Turns out, almost everyone with solid recovery does this.  Many start going to church again, many don't, but practice meditation and spirituality in some form (spirituality here meaning consideration of the non-material world, of the soul, so to speak). Most (not all) do not become fundagelical nutbars, but rather the type of religious people that are non-judgmental, service-oriented, "people for others."

Not everyone needs AA to keep from driving their personal bus off the cliff in flames.

But AA or a similar 12-step program would help almost anyone with the struggle that is life.

[Sbbruin 21,842]

3 hours ago, El Tri said:

nothing. that's exactly the point. either god allowed it to happen and he's a jerk, or god is powerless to stop it so what's the point in prayer, or more likely, there is no god

[Hefeweizen 5,311]

Texas lack of prowess in football since VY and Colt has destroyed my faith.

 

 

[Rimbo 25,919]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I've always thought and often said that if heaven or whatever the goal is comes because you checked a box on a membership form, say the magic words, and that's that, versus a place for people who live good lives of kindness and decency, and in fact, those kind and decent people are excluded if they didn't check a box and say the exact right mumbo jumbo, well fuck it - I don't wanna go to any such place anyway.   Your "heaven" is a place for hypocritical legalistic dicks, which means that your heaven is a perfect description of my hell.  You can have it.

And on the flip side, this reduces all the commandments and theology down to a set of habits that you can form, then feel good about yourself, without actually changing your shitty behavior at all. It's a very, very seductive philosophy for the adherents that makes "righteousness" easy, and a win-win for the clergy, who then gain political power from it.

But we digress.

The point of prayer is it gives you a moment to focus on something divine for a while instead of the normal shit of the day. Done right, it's what they call "mindfulness" nowadays. There's real mental and physical health benefits to it, even if God doesn't exist; if God does exist, then it's hopefully getting a conversation going.

There's a point to doing it loudly and in public, too: Self-aggrandizement. Shit-disturbing. The phony (and in many ways, nasty) side of evangelism.

[Rimbo 25,919]

16 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Prayer without action is theological masturbation.

Well, like I said above, doing it the right way is Mindfulness, which has proven to have significant medical benefits for those who practice it.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Like anything in this world, prayer has a different meaning for every person. The answers in this thread alone have shown that. Everyone is different, with different experiences and interpretations of the world around them. Some believe a higher being listens to their prayers. Some believe the act of prayer itself holds the true meaning. Some just go through the motions. Some believe it’s just nonsense. 

What is the point of prayer? Whatever you want it to be.

The same goes for the rest of life 

[luke duke 6,412]

To make yourself feel better 

…without having to actually do anything remotely close to trying to solve the problem.

[Mole 4,330]

The Lord’s Prayer is a mix of worship, self-reflection (as we forgive those who trespass against us), and petition for provision and safety. 

He prayed publicly himself, so Jesus as described in the Bible wasn’t against all public prayer, but He sure did have a problem with faithless, self-serving public prayers.

Jesus on prayer and petitioning God, Luke 18:

Spoiler

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes,will he find faith on the earth?”

The Old Testament is full of stories about God’s mind being changed by prayers. What that means as it relates to God’s will and the terrible things that happen in the world is a fair question, but as someone who looks to Jesus for how I should live and act, the biblical models are enough for me to keep pestering God with whatever’s on my mind.

On a practical level, prayer often leads to one of the participants realizing that they can answer the need being prayed for.

James 2:16

Spoiler

If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

 

[chainsaw 9,865]

Thank you for continuing to pray. Your prayer is very important to us. Your prayer will be answered in the order in which it was received.

[F250 28,767]

27 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Well, like I said above, doing it the right way is Mindfulness, which has proven to have significant medical benefits for those who practice it.

Practice Mindfulness enough and you'll end up living in a yurt somewhere out in New Mexico while sipping on ayahuasca tea and selling crystals on the side of the road.

[HouTex 1,866]

As a life long Catholic, and still a believer, I get a kick out of this line from She’s the One:

• Mickey Fitzpatrick : Why are you getting so upset Dad? You don't even believe in God.

  Mr. Fitzpatrick : That doesn't mean I'm going to stop being a good Catholic.

[UpperWestside 6,162]

45 minutes ago, F250 said:

Practice Mindfulness enough and you'll end up living in a yurt somewhere out in New Mexico while sipping on ayahuasca tea and selling crystals on the side of the road.

This is what I envision the next career for Aaron Rodgers to be.

[BrickHorn 18,218]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

I have @ co-worker who makes it a point to let EVERYFUCKINGBODY know how much he is praying for you.

It’s such a fucking charade of virtue. It drives me nuts and I am a believer, myself. Complete fraud.

If it makes you feel better, I’ve been saying the following prayer every night for years:

”Dear Lord, listen not to the prayers of slorch’s sanctimonious coworker. In fact: whatever that guy asks you to do, please do the opposite. This I pray. Amen.”

[mchookem 16,327]

i prayed when Dusty was getting ready to kick the field goal in the Rose Bowl against Michigan. except it didn't feel right bc the Thailand Boxing Day tsunami had just happened a few days before. so i clearly told God to ignore everything i was about to say, to pay no attention to my prayer...then i prayed the shit out of that kick. it worked! or it didn't. whatever.

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Like anything in this world, prayer has a different meaning for every person. The answers in this thread alone have shown that. Everyone is different, with different experiences and interpretations of the world around them. Some believe a higher being listens to their prayers. Some believe the act of prayer itself holds the true meaning. Some just go through the motions. Some believe it’s just nonsense. 

What is the point of prayer? Whatever you want it to be.

The same goes for the rest of life 

This is a really good post and shows how much has to do with the attitudes and motivations of the person doing anything. 
 

- Praying for guidance or wisdom when facing a difficult decision: A genuine person is using this opportunity to wrestle or think about that decision or situation and the prayer helps focus their mind. A trite person is surrendering responsibility and letting their bias take over as “God’s will.”  And the honest question: how often do any of us, secular or religious, really do an honest intellectual struggle and how many of us just stumble and rationalize our way into what we want to do anyway? 
 

- Praying for someone: An honest or genuine person is taking a moment to seriously think about the needs and problems of other people and will often come away with resolve and ideas on how to help.  And the trite person will treat it as their “good deed” and move along with their day.  And the honest question: How often do any of us, secular or religious, seriously take a moment to reflect on the struggles of people around us? And how often do we say “that’s terrible, that’s sad” and then move along with our day? 
 

- Praying for something for ourselves: A genuine person will reflect on whether they need the thing they are praying for and further on what more they can be doing to get there. A trite person will “lay it on the Lord” and remain passives and the honest question: how many of us, secular or religious, are just content to passively hope for things to work out the way we want? 
 

My point is— you can call it mindfulness or meditator or communion with God— I think that people who are not interested in being thoughtful and kind and active can find ways be passive and trite without the crutch or prayer or religion. And the flip side is that people who are inclined to do those things can find prayer and faith to be a great discipline and road map to get them there. It’s what you want it to be for you. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Rimbo 25,919]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Practice Mindfulness enough and you'll end up living in a yurt somewhere out in New Mexico while sipping on ayahuasca tea and selling crystals on the side of the road.

Or, you end up going from a kid who was suspended from school literally every day of the week to a kid who gets straight A's and ends up getting into a great University to study engineering.

YMMV

[gernblansten 3,196]

6 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm going to triple wish

Then she’s quadruple-wishing and furiously pulling out eyelashes and blowing them away!

[956 Worldwide 34,705]

4 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

To me prayer is an admission that one is powerless. That is a very dangerous way to live. Not only to the one praying but to those around them as well.

Fuck it, it's God's will lol.

Man fuck you. Man up and take responsibility.

The other side to this is that a belief that you’re at the wheel and in charge here is an approach to life that is bound to end in frustration.  Maybe you believe that there is an invisible deity controlling the strings and deciding what happens that day. Maybe you know that we are a collection of subatomic particles that collide in such a way to make us think and care about things. 
 

One day one collection of particles is going to bounce together in a way that ends up with the news: Your child has cancer. Or maybe a bunch of atoms and chemicals are going to combine in such a way that makes another collection of atoms drive his Silverado across the center line and straight through you on the way home from work. Or they’re going to be collected together in a factory, and turned into high explosives and someone in a dark room in Nevada will shoot them at your wedding because they got bad information about your guests.

The point is that you have to take responsibility for what you can while realizing: you’re not really in control. 
 

So whatever gets you there, man. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[Brisketexan 105,095]

I’m not trying to be a dick, but I’m just pointing out that of course there’s nothing you have that can substantiate that He listens.   As a five-year-old I had the most fervent, honest, believing and compelling prayer one can imagine, but my parakeet still died.    So as a kid, I thought, did he listen? Does he hate parakeets? I was told “the ways of God are mysterious.”  I did not buy it then. 
So the problem many people have is, I could announce that the Holy Beach Board Ball in the Lawn Chair in My Backyard is an all knowing, omnipotent being who listens to all of our prayers.   If I have enough people on board with that theology, through simple statistics many of the things people are praying for will come to pass.  That will be faith producing in a lot of those people.   Now, if the Holy Beach Board Ball in the Lawn Chair in My Backyard does NOT grant me that which I have been praying for, I can say He listens…but maybe not what we want, when or how we want them.
I have a former coworker who was the queen of laying everything on God. She thought of God as the ultimate micromanager, who is so enthralled with her than every second he was watching what she was doing, and guiding her actions. So when she was eventually let go, she announced that “God had had opened another door for me”  Another coworker said, “No, not really, but it’s better not to be late 15 out of 20 days.  That’s not God opening a door, that’s you not getting out of bed.” 
Which is all to say, I’m not suggesting  that prayer is not a good practice, that spirituality is not a wonderful thing, that meditation and thinking about yourself and others is not helpful and beneficial to yourself and the whole community.  The problem comes about when people essentially disassociate their own behavior from consequences and attribute everything to a higher being. Often prayer is used as a means of avoiding consequences for your actions, or in the case of gun control, for ignoring inaction.   When it comes to opposition to laws that could reduce mass shootings, the only thing I think about when someone says they are praying for the victims is that I want to punch them. That is, if the one praying is opposing reasonable gun laws.  
I like prayer. I like people praying for me, it touches me. But it’s like the old joke about the drowning man who keeps praying to be saved by God, ignoring offered aid because God will save him,  and and after he drowns God says, “I sent you three boats.”
Prayer without action is theological masturbation.

Man, I can’t rep this post enough. Has a lot of stuff I wish I’d posted myself.
But fuck your parakeet, birds are rats with feathers.

I'll give you a "practical spirituality" answer.
The program of Alcoholics Anonymous asks that people seeking recovery find a "higher power."  For most people, that's an Abrahamic God, or some other traditional deity because that's how they were raised..  But it doesn't have to be.
For addicts in recovery, the key to it is acknowledging that "we don't run this shit."  We don't and can't control other people and things.  It helps us and is vital to understanding our proper place in the world.  For whatever reason, a pretty uniform part of the insanity that drives us back to drinking and drugging is the inability to control and otherwise deal with and accept the world as it is.
We are also asked to pray/meditate and seek conscious contact with that higher power to obtain serenity and for "guidance" on doing the next right thing. I suppose that aspect of it is like any other type of meditation that seeks what the Buddhists call "mindfulness."
Turns out, almost everyone with solid recovery does this.  Many start going to church again, many don't, but practice meditation and spirituality in some form (spirituality here meaning consideration of the non-material world, of the soul, so to speak). Most (not all) do not become fundagelical nutbars, but rather the type of religious people that are non-judgmental, service-oriented, "people for others."
Not everyone needs AA to keep from driving their personal bus off the cliff in flames.
But AA or a similar 12-step program would help almost anyone with the struggle that is life.

The “we don’t run this shit” takeaway is important. And it doesn’t have to be run by a single anthropomorphic God. It can be as simple as this: sure, each of us is coalesced stardust with free will. But we’re surrounded by 7 billion other clumps of coalesced stardust, each of them with their own free will. And we exist in a scenario where chaos and entropy are central functions of the physical universe. So….nope, we don’t run this shit. We can do our “single clump of coalesced stardust” part, even making quite the impact, but in the end….there’s a lot more than us in play.

As for me, the primary source of frustration in my life is that the universe continues to refuse to bend to my will or acknowledge me as its center. The fucking nerve, man. It’s like it doesn’t even realize that I’m actually in charge.

[Dbeasy 15,047]

4 hours ago, F250 said:

Once while playing CYO baseball in the 5th grade, I took a ball right to head while playing first base. The field we were on was right next to the school buildings and I saw a girl I had a crush on. Older 7th grade girl, flowing brown hair in the Catholic school girl uniform. I was in awe. Just mesmerized.

Then I hear "F250!" followed by a blow to the head from our short stop trying to throw a runner out. Tunnel vision and ringing in the ears followed.

Lesson learned. Always keep your eyes on the ball.

I played little league basketball in my normal youth league and was basically a scrub. It was an East Austin league so the competition was strong.

One summer I missed the enrollment deadline so my mom put me in a Christian youth league, YMCA or something like that. It was the greatest summer of my life. I was Michael Jordan playing against elementary school kids. Scoring, rebounds, steals. So much fun. It’s all been downhill ever since. 

[MissingInAction 25,037]

I accept that I am already dead.

Animals give me hope with their ever abundance of life and joy in the presence of being.

Strike from me mortality, or the knowledge of it.

That is my prayer.

Edited November 3, 2023 by MissingInAction
Grammar death

[Anastasis 23,469]

40 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I accept that I am already dead.

This is the way. 

[StassneyHorn 6,575]

Prayer is the minimal, conscious reaction to knowing you are never in control of anything in life. Car crash, someone with a rich dad, no condoms etc

Edited November 3, 2023 by StassneyHorn

[TwiceHorn 31,450]

2 hours ago, Mole said:

The Lord’s Prayer is a mix of worship, self-reflection (as we forgive those who trespass against us), and petition for provision and safety. 

He prayed publicly himself, so Jesus as described in the Bible wasn’t against all public prayer, but He sure did have a problem with faithless, self-serving public prayers.

Jesus on prayer and petitioning God, Luke 18:

  Reveal hidden contents

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes,will he find faith on the earth?”

The Old Testament is full of stories about God’s mind being changed by prayers. What that means as it relates to God’s will and the terrible things that happen in the world is a fair question, but as someone who looks to Jesus for how I should live and act, the biblical models are enough for me to keep pestering God with whatever’s on my mind.

On a practical level, prayer often leads to one of the participants realizing that they can answer the need being prayed for.

James 2:16

  Reveal hidden contents

If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

 

Also, very traditional prayer can/does include statements of gratitude (which is something probably everyone can exhibit more of or spend more thought-time on).

And, yes, during these times of meditation and prayer, where the outside world is "excused" for a moment, the answer to the prayer becomes apparent, or maybe soon thereafter.  Whether that is an appeal to and response from a higher power, or just clarity of thinking that results from mindfulness is a guess subject to one's beliefs, but it practically works surprisingly often.

One thing that is often not acknowledged is that even the Old Testament with all its bizarre rules and rituals and condemnation, contains some pretty decent "self-help psychology," and of course the New Testament is filled with it.  Most of the texts and materials of the world's religions have similar teachings at a higher level of abstraction.

Sidenote:  Not prayer related, but "confession" is extremely useful at eliminating guilt that can really hold you back in life.  Even trivial stuff that you feel bad about can really beat you down after a while, and sharing it with another person, or even just writing it down can give you some perspective and relief.

And that is the genius of AA, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith distilled a lot of that self-help psychology from Christianity and other religions and religious help groups into a mostly secularized program that can be a miraculous cure for addiction.

Edited November 3, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[F250 28,767]

1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

I played little league basketball in my normal youth league and was basically a scrub. It was an East Austin league so the competition was strong.

One summer I missed the enrollment deadline so my mom put me in a Christian youth league, YMCA or something like that. It was the greatest summer of my life. I was Michael Jordan playing against elementary school kids. Scoring, rebounds, steals. So much fun. It’s all been downhill ever since. 

CYO baseball in San Antonio during the 80's was serious business. Pretty much everyone I played with in high school and Legion ball were from CYO. Although a lot of us played Little League together in 6th grade for the All-Star run.

The thing I always liked about CYO was when the priest would bless our team so we could go kick the shit out of Blessed Sacrament, Holy Spirit, etc....

[Braff Zacklin 13,558]

 

1 hour ago, gernblansten said:

7 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm going to triple wish

Then she’s quadruple-wishing and furiously pulling out eyelashes and blowing them away!

 

[Biff Tannen 45,673]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'll give you a "practical spirituality" answer.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous asks that people seeking recovery find a "higher power."  For most people, that's an Abrahamic God, or some other traditional deity because that's how they were raised..  But it doesn't have to be.

For addicts in recovery, the key to it is acknowledging that "we don't run this shit."  We don't and can't control other people and things.  It helps us and is vital to understanding our proper place in the world.  For whatever reason, a pretty uniform part of the insanity that drives us back to drinking and drugging is the inability to control and otherwise deal with and accept the world as it is.

We are also asked to pray/meditate and seek conscious contact with that higher power to obtain serenity and for "guidance" on doing the next right thing. I suppose that aspect of it is like any other type of meditation that seeks what the Buddhists call "mindfulness."

Turns out, almost everyone with solid recovery does this.  Many start going to church again, many don't, but practice meditation and spirituality in some form (spirituality here meaning consideration of the non-material world, of the soul, so to speak). Most (not all) do not become fundagelical nutbars, but rather the type of religious people that are non-judgmental, service-oriented, "people for others."

Not everyone needs AA to keep from driving their personal bus off the cliff in flames.

But AA or a similar 12-step program would help almost anyone with the struggle that is life.

God damn, an actually useful post in a thread that I thought would just be fodder. 

[F250 28,767]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'll give you a "practical spirituality" answer.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous asks that people seeking recovery find a "higher power."  For most people, that's an Abrahamic God, or some other traditional deity because that's how they were raised..  But it doesn't have to be.

For addicts in recovery, the key to it is acknowledging that "we don't run this shit."  We don't and can't control other people and things.  It helps us and is vital to understanding our proper place in the world.  For whatever reason, a pretty uniform part of the insanity that drives us back to drinking and drugging is the inability to control and otherwise deal with and accept the world as it is.

We are also asked to pray/meditate and seek conscious contact with that higher power to obtain serenity and for "guidance" on doing the next right thing. I suppose that aspect of it is like any other type of meditation that seeks what the Buddhists call "mindfulness."

Turns out, almost everyone with solid recovery does this.  Many start going to church again, many don't, but practice meditation and spirituality in some form (spirituality here meaning consideration of the non-material world, of the soul, so to speak). Most (not all) do not become fundagelical nutbars, but rather the type of religious people that are non-judgmental, service-oriented, "people for others."

Not everyone needs AA to keep from driving their personal bus off the cliff in flames.

But AA or a similar 12-step program would help almost anyone with the struggle that is life.

Some of this sounds very Methodisty.

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31,450]

12 minutes ago, F250 said:

Some of this sounds very Methodisty.

 

 

Well, I am/was raised one, as you probably are aware.  But, it's pretty straight up AA/recovery moral psychology, perhaps subconsciously filtered.

The closest ancestor to AA was something called The Oxford Group, far more overtly Christian than AA and not actually directed at dealing with addiction, but rather a more practical Christianity than typically practiced at most churches.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group  It does not appear to have been in any way Wesleyan in orientation.

As mentioned above, Wilson and Smith distilled useful principles from Oxford Group's explicitly Christian teachings (although non-denominational), and made it about as secular as they could in mid 30s America.  The Big Book is still rife with references to God, but more as a convenient shorthand that remains unfortunately off-putting to a lot of newcomers that are looking for any excuse to avoid AA.

[Pods 7,552]

8 hours ago, El Tri said:

yeah, like god planting dinosaur fossils to test the idiots evangelicals