What is the point of prayer

[52-80 19162]

12 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Superstition is a helluva drug. So is ignorance.

Religion, prayer, etc are constructs of ignorance. It's killing the world.

Strong disagree on the conclusion. 

Lots of and lots of studies (and meta studies) done on religion vs crime in the US, and they consistently reveal reduction on criminology and other deviant behaviors. They cannot demonstrate causal effect, but it's broadly accepted the social and communal aspect is what serves as deterrence.

Majority of Americans in all demographics also rightfully support separation of church and state, despite their own religious affiliation.

Personally, I'm not religious, but I don't mind if other people are; it's a net good they have something to believe in.  I'm just against their tax exemption...

[52-80 19162]

And totally anecdotal, but I know some mormons of various backgrounds, and by far and away they're the nicest people in the world.  I can't think of any social, professional, religious, ethnic, etc group, that as a class are more pleasant people than those folks. 

Dunno if they have hidden-motive to install Utah Xenu as the antichrist or whatever but from my exposure so far, id rather have them as neighbors than anybody else.

[DigglerontheHoof 21202]

Anytime I hear some bullshit about the "power of prayer" I think of the 1.5 million children the Nazis murdered in WWII.  I'm pretty goddamned sure every single one of those kids prayed as hard as they could for God to deliver them from the evil that was Nazi Germany.  And God just sat there and let it happen.

GTFO about prayer doing shit about anything. 

[statsman 5472]

Prayer is a great way to remind yourself that, no matter how much it may feel that way, you are not the actual center of the universe. 

[GreenspointTexas 9645]

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

 

thats how many planets are in the KNOWN universe

 

now imagine how many planets there are that we dont know about. Based on probability, there are likely millions, if not BILLIONS of different civilizations across the universe

 

A man in the sky created them all? Or did we all just evolve ourselves organically from carbon, hydrogen, etc?

 

Id definitely take the latter before the former. There is very little likelihood that there is a god imo

 

 

 

[Samson's Wig 3192]

Prayer = meditation = vision boards = exercise = therapy = whatever you do to center yourself or focus on your journey.    

Whatever works for you, go for it.  While I think prayer can have an impact internally on the individual, much like any other form of self-reflection, I do find it odd that some believe that prayer generates external results.  It seems to primarily be an evangelical way of thinking.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

34 minutes ago, statsman said:

Prayer is a great way to remind yourself that, no matter how much it may feel that way, you are not the actual center of the universe. 

Depends on what you're praying about, I suspect.  

[SubliminalHorn 6806]

There’s no sky fairy listening to your prayers. If anything, it’s basically like meditation. I’m sure it has physiological benefits like decreased blood pressure, respiratory rate, pulse, etc. I think that’s the benefit. 

[SubliminalHorn 6806]

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Anytime I hear some bullshit about the "power of prayer" I think of the 1.5 million children the Nazis murdered in WWII.  I'm pretty goddamned sure every single one of those kids prayed as hard as they could for God to deliver them from the evil that was Nazi Germany.  And God just sat there and let it happen.

GTFO about prayer doing shit about anything. 

If there is a god, he will have to beg for my forgiveness.”
– Anonymously carved into the wall of Cell Block 20, Mauthausen-Gusen Concentration Camp

[South Austin 52519]

9 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Prayer = meditation = vision boards = exercise = therapy = whatever you do to center yourself or focus on your journey.    

This. 

If you think the spiritual side of prayer is foolishness, I understand where that's coming from.  But putting that aside, prayer -- or whatever you want to call this general practice -- is a good way of getting out of your body, and articulating and expressing anxiety, grief, despair, gratitude, and the general cycle of human emotions and experience in our own individual journeys on this earth.  

I'd like to think that on the other side of my prayers is a benevolent omnipotence, call it God or what you will.  Something that listens and might comfort in its own way, without any expectation of getting something in return.  But I'm not sure of that, since I have a very imperfect faith.

A priest in my church said it best:  "The biggest enemy of faith is not doubt, but certainty."

[ClubWhatever 12144]

You pray to win the game.  

[Neonmoon 38129]

40 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

Depends on what you're praying about, I suspect.  

The most common prayer

God, I really really really want to fuck that blonde spinner at the coffee shop. 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

I'm curious how the folks who have moved on from organized religion are explaining religion and God to their children when they get to the 8-18 range. It's a conundrum I'm going to start to have to work through here in a few years. Particularly since my kid goes to a private religious school (mom works there, school is fucking outstanding). I have zero interest in taking him to church and teaching dogma, but I'm somewhat concerned with the potential for the whole "My Dad says God doesn't exist" conflicts with other kids that I feel like is inevitable.

Hoo boy, this is probably going to be a derail. Sorry in advance. 

[BabaYaga 15301]

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'll give you a "practical spirituality" answer.

The program of Alcoholics Anonymous asks that people seeking recovery find a "higher power."  For most people, that's an Abrahamic God, or some other traditional deity because that's how they were raised..  But it doesn't have to be.

For addicts in recovery, the key to it is acknowledging that "we don't run this shit."  We don't and can't control other people and things.  It helps us and is vital to understanding our proper place in the world.  For whatever reason, a pretty uniform part of the insanity that drives us back to drinking and drugging is the inability to control and otherwise deal with and accept the world as it is.

We are also asked to pray/meditate and seek conscious contact with that higher power to obtain serenity and for "guidance" on doing the next right thing. I suppose that aspect of it is like any other type of meditation that seeks what the Buddhists call "mindfulness."

Turns out, almost everyone with solid recovery does this.  Many start going to church again, many don't, but practice meditation and spirituality in some form (spirituality here meaning consideration of the non-material world, of the soul, so to speak). Most (not all) do not become fundagelical nutbars, but rather the type of religious people that are non-judgmental, service-oriented, "people for others."

Not everyone needs AA to keep from driving their personal bus off the cliff in flames.

But AA or a similar 12-step program would help almost anyone with the struggle that is life.

"I asked for strength… and God gave me difficulties to make me strong. I asked for wisdom… and God gave me problems to solve. I asked for prosperity… and God gave me a brain and energy to work. I asked for courage… and God gave me danger to overcome.

[Brisketexan 105154]

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

And totally anecdotal, but I know some mormons of various backgrounds, and by far and away they're the nicest people in the world.  I can't think of any social, professional, religious, ethnic, etc group, that as a class are more pleasant people than those folks. 

Was just having this conversation the other day, where I was taking the exact same position -- and that indeed is my experience.  My lunch companion had, umm, a lot more melanin than I did, and her comment was "yeah....but they still have some racist as shit beliefs."  And she's right.  It perfectly captures the conundrum of how to view many otherwise "moral" people.  Many of us grew up with relatives of the southern persuasion.  Maybe you had an uncle who was a genuinely good man.  He went to church, and seemed to live the Way.  The kind of guy who everyone in town knew would give you the shirt off his back, helped people out without being asked, all that.  Oh, and also, he was racist AF.  How do you reconcile that morality, and how do you fit it within his obvious christian beliefs?

As far as I've figured out, you don't reconcile it.  You can't.

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

 

thats how many planets are in the KNOWN universe

 

now imagine how many planets there are that we dont know about. Based on probability, there are likely millions, if not BILLIONS of different civilizations across the universe

 

A man in the sky created them all? Or did we all just evolve ourselves organically from carbon, hydrogen, etc?

 

Id definitely take the latter before the former. There is very little likelihood that there is a god imo

 

I love this line of thought.  My wife and I had some lengthy late night conversations years ago when we saw the IMAX documentary on the Hubble Telescope.  About how we were nothing, mere specks in a universe beyond our comprehension.

Yet, we are something within that universe.  The universe is made up of trillions upon trillions of specks of stardust.  But some of that stardust, in this time and place, coalesced and became YOU.  When the universe ends, its story can be told by telling the story of each speck of stardust within it.  And that story cannot be fully told until YOUR story is told as well.  A chapter of the story of those specks of stardust will always be "the period in which I was GreenspointTexas."

You don't matter.  Yet, you matter so, so much.  The universe wouldn't be what it is without you.  And maybe that interconnection of all matter, the dependence and bond, is the essence of what we call love, and what we call God.  If there is a God, and God truly is a being of the infinite, than surely our attempts to anthropromorphize and limit God are folly, and do not capture the true essence of God.

And yes, I realize that this makes me something of a "universalist," who dogmatic Christians regularly disdain.  So be it.  Maybe I'm right.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But I work to grasp my place in creation, my place among my fellow men/coalesced stardust, and I realize that each one of us matters.  Each one of us is precious to the universe.  Which, from what I recall from many years of religious education, is EXACTLY what Jesus said:

Quote

Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7

17 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The most common prayer

God, I really really really want to fuck that blonde spinner at the coffee shop convince my wife that a threesome with her curvy brunette friend is a great idea. 

FIFM.

[BabaYaga 15301]

32 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm curious how the folks who have moved on from organized religion are explaining religion and God to their children when they get to the 8-18 range. It's a conundrum I'm going to start to have to work through here in a few years. Particularly since my kid goes to a private religious school (mom works there, school is fucking outstanding). I have zero interest in taking him to church and teaching dogma, but I'm somewhat concerned with the potential for the whole "My Dad says God doesn't exist" conflicts with other kids that I feel like is inevitable.

Hoo boy, this is probably going to be a derail. Sorry in advance. 

It's a good, honest question so here are my thoughts:  Start with the Bible.  The actual scripture, or a youth version.  Read it together, discuss it together, and go from there.  Not at a macro level, but the parables, teachings, and messaging.  Life experiences of those in scripture that can be applied in today's society,  and see what they think?

If you need a starting point - try Proverbs 22:6

[52-80 19162]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Was just having this conversation the other day, where I was taking the exact same position -- and that indeed is my experience.  My lunch companion had, umm, a lot more melanin than I did, and her comment was "yeah....but they still have some racist as shit beliefs."  And she's right.  It perfectly captures the conundrum of how to view many otherwise "moral" people. 

Did she have anything to substantiate that belief? Far as I know, their main creed is about promoting family, and a milquetoast aversion to vices, but nothing fundamentally ego-centric that associates to racism.  No "we are the chosen people" type of dictum. 

Perhaps they're just strongly misunderstood.  This is sorta funny, they're the *least-liked* group in America (even below Muslims).... even though they themselves like other people, by far more than anyone else.

from Pew's survey of 10,000+ people.

 

fwiw, those mormons i know include highly-pigmented ones, and those in mixed marriage. 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by 52-80

[Brisketexan 105154]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Did she have anything to substantiate that belief? Far as I know, their main creed is about promoting family, and a milquetoast aversion to vices, but nothing fundamentally ego-centric that associates to racism.  No "we are the chosen people" type of dictum. 

Perhaps they're just strongly misunderstood.  This is sorta funny, they're the *least-liked* group in America (even below Muslims).... even though they themselves like other people, by far more than anyone else.

from Pew's survey of 10,000+ people.

 

 

Dude.

Quote

In a June 1978 letter, the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaimed that “all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color.” Men of African descent could now hold the priesthood, the power and authority exercised by all male members of the church in good standing. Such a statement was necessary, because until then, blacks were relegated to a very second-class status within the church.

The revelation may have lifted the ban, but it neither repudiated it nor apologized for it. “It doesn’t make a particle of difference,” proclaimed the Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie a few months later, “what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978.”

Mr. McConkie meant such words to encourage Mormons to embrace the new revelation, and he may have solemnly believed that it made the history of the priesthood ban irrelevant. But to many others around the country, statements of former church leaders about “the Negro matter” do, in fact, matter a great deal.

.....

It was Smith’s successor, Brigham Young, who adopted the policies that now haunt the church. He described black people as cursed with dark skin as punishment for Cain’s murder of his brother. “Any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him cannot hold the priesthood,” he declared in 1852. Young deemed black-white intermarriage so sinful that he suggested that a man could atone for it only by having “his head cut off” and spilling “his blood upon the ground.” Other Mormon leaders convinced themselves that the pre-existent spirits of black people had sinned in heaven by supporting Lucifer in his rebellion against God.

The priesthood ban had sweeping ecclesiastical consequences for black Mormons. They could not participate in the sacred ordinances, like the endowment ceremony (which prepares one for the afterlife) and sealings (which formally bind a family together), rites that Smith and Young taught were necessary to obtain celestial glory.

....

The church could begin leaving those problems behind if its leaders explained that their predecessors had confused their own racist views with God’s will and that the priesthood ban resulted from human error and limitations rather than a divine curse. Given the church’s ecclesiology, this step would be difficult.

 

[DaysOff 7951]

Anytime I hear some bullshit about the "power of prayer" I think of the 1.5 million children the Nazis murdered in WWII.  I'm pretty goddamned sure every single one of those kids prayed as hard as they could for God to deliver them from the evil that was Nazi Germany.  And God just sat there and let it happen.
GTFO about prayer doing shit about anything. 

I like to quote the survivor who said, "if there is a God, he's going to have to pray for my forgiveness. "

Shit. Just saw subliminal's post.

[SydneyCarton 48110]

16 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It's a good, honest question so here are my thoughts:  Start with the Bible.  The actual scripture, or a youth version.  Read it together, discuss it together, and go from there.  Not at a macro level, but the parables, teachings, and messaging.  Life experiences of those in scripture that can be applied in today's society,  and see what they think?

If you need a starting point - try Proverbs 22:6

I apprecaite your earnest response, but I don't think you grasped my point. My son is going to get plenty of biblical teaching at his school. I'm not interseted in re-enforcaing it at home. At all. I do understand what I think you're attempting to illustrate, vis a vis the teachings of jesus himself versus the other areas of the Bible, for which, yes, those are all great lessons. He'll get that at school. I'm more talking about the period of time that comes when he asks questions about God, and I decide to tell him Daddy doesn't believe in God the way they teach you at school. 

[JBJ 3655]

2 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

thats how many planets are in the KNOWN universe

now imagine how many planets there are that we dont know about. Based on probability, there are likely millions, if not BILLIONS of different civilizations across the universe

Only one of those known planets is Class M, so no.  Life, if it even exists beyond our planet, is rare as fuck.

[BabaYaga 15301]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I apprecaite your earnest response, but I don't think you grasped my point. My son is going to get plenty of biblical teaching at his school. I'm not interseted in re-enforcaing it at home. At all. I do understand what I think you're attempting to illustrate, vis a vis the teachings of jesus himself versus the other areas of the Bible, for which, yes, those are all great lessons. He'll get that at school. I'm more talking about the period of time that comes when he asks questions about God, and I decide to tell him Daddy doesn't believe in God the way they teach you at school. 

I get that.  Apologies for missing the main point, but I would answer that you can connect on the messages and intent of scripture without going down the rabbit hole of "God", the Bible, and religion.  Maybe it's about discerning from the message, not focusing on the author.  For example, this simple text is what my son and I have discussed for hours.  What does this mean to him?  How does he interpret this and why?

A good name is more desirable than great riches;
    to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.

I have used this verse to talk about athletics, discipline, and perseverance:

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
    but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.

[SydneyCarton 48110]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I get that.  Apologies for missing the main point, but I would answer that you can connect on the messages and intent of scripture without going down the rabbit hole of "God", the Bible, and religion.  Maybe it's about discerning from the message, not focusing on the author.  For example, this simple text is what my son and I have discussed for hours.  What does this mean to him?  How does he interpret this and why?

A good name is more desirable than great riches;
    to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.

I have used this verse to talk about athletics, discipline, and perseverance:

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
    but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.

Yeah, we're on the same page here. I'm all about using the lessons of the Bible to raise a good, kind child, who hopefully is thoughtful. And I don't give a shit where the source of that lesson stems. He's going to get a lot of instruction in the teachings of Jesus, and i'm going to reinforce the shit out of those messages. I was raised very Catholic, and my mom was pretty clear early on about the Bible as a parable, and not literal, so I think I've got a pretty good grasp of that. 

I'm concerned of the conflict that will arise between our home and the school, as well as conflicts between other kids with the "My dad says X" shit. I guess I'm probably over-thinking it. 

[BabaYaga 15301]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yeah, we're on the same page here. I'm all about using the lessons of the Bible to raise a good, kind child, who hopefully is thoughtful. And I don't give a shit where the source of that lesson stems. He's going to get a lot of instruction in the teachings of Jesus, and i'm going to reinforce the shit out of those messages. I was raised very Catholic, and my mom was pretty clear early on about the Bible as a parable, and not literal, so I think I've got a pretty good grasp of that. 

I'm concerned of the conflict that will arise between our home and the school, as well as conflicts between other kids with the "My dad says X" shit. I guess I'm probably over-thinking it. 

Our children judge us on our actions and less on our words.  They see how you treat them and your family.  Your neighbors.  Your friends.  Your example is so more critical than your stance on a book.  The fact that you are even entertaining this line of reasoning to me, shows that you are a thoughtful father.  Good on you.  

[Helobious 9461]

If god is all knowing and all powerful, he already knows how the story of your life will play out. Which is why I don’t see how praying would make a difference. 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

8 minutes ago, JBJ said:

Only one of those known planets is Class M, so no.  Life, if it even exists beyond our planet, is rare as fuck.

How do you define "rare?" Because we haven't found left in the, oh, zero planets we've actually set foot on other than earth, it must be rare? Most scientists think there's a great shot to find life on one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn at this point. Which one is it, Europa? That's in our own solar system and not even a fucking class M planet. 

Most of the dipshits posting on this site have probably fucked 3, maybe 4 whole women in their life, and infrequently. But that's not a metric I'd use to make a blanket statement like "Most people on planet earth just don't have sex, it's extremely rare." Your logic is flawed.

As for the definition of "rare" there's a ton of ways to illustrate that. If there are a billion planets or moons with life, out of hundreds of trillions or millions of trillions of planets, is it rare? By one point of view, namely statistically, sure. But that's still BILLLIONS OF PLANETS WITH LIFE, which I do not think is rare at all. TO put it another way, if you have one billions dollars, is that a lot of money? Becuase compared to the net worth of the entire planet, it isn't shit. 

[SydneyCarton 48110]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Our children judge us on our actions and less on our words.  They see how you treat them and your family.  Your neighbors.  Your friends.  Your example is so more critical than your stance on a book.  The fact that you are even entertaining this line of reasoning to me, shows that you are a thoughtful father.  Good on you.  

Shit man, I'm just trying to keep the kid kind and not create problems at school

[52-80 19162]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude.

 

If we're judging practitioners today based on the belief of religious leaders alive during the the US Civil War, what was the state of the other competing churchs back then wrt to slavery and black rights?

[Longhorn94 2452]

focus on the lessons, try to find commonalities with what he is learning at school, and try your best to let him find his own path with what he believes.

[Brisketexan 105154]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

If we're judging practitioners today based on the belief of religious leaders alive during the the US Civil War, what was the state of the other competing churchs back then wrt to slavery and black rights?

Civil War?  No, dude....1978.  And it wasn't some archaic leftover dogma that was still on the books -- it was still practiced.  The Mormon church has a lot more recent racist demons to exorcise.

And that offers no forgiveness for other denominations that struggled with the issue -- it's the reason that the Presbyterian church fractured in the 1860s (split into two denominations -- so in Austin, for example, there was First Presbyterian Church (my church, actually) that was anti-slavery, and Central Presbyterian, which was pro-slavery.  Then, the northern church eventually got around to realizing yeah, that was bad.  And a few decades later, in 1983, the denomination formally re-unified).  There are other denominations that split over slavery that remain split.  So, I cut nobody much slack on this.

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yeah, we're on the same page here. I'm all about using the lessons of the Bible to raise a good, kind child, who hopefully is thoughtful. And I don't give a shit where the source of that lesson stems. He's going to get a lot of instruction in the teachings of Jesus, and i'm going to reinforce the shit out of those messages. I was raised very Catholic, and my mom was pretty clear early on about the Bible as a parable, and not literal, so I think I've got a pretty good grasp of that. 

I'm concerned of the conflict that will arise between our home and the school, as well as conflicts between other kids with the "My dad says X" shit. I guess I'm probably over-thinking it. 

I was raised by an old-world Louisiana catholic mother and mexican catholic dad, and went to catholic schools.  BUT, neither parent was overly dogmatic in their faith.  Indeed, when I, as an 8 yr old who had just a beginner's grasp of theology, told my jewish friend in the car "huh....you don't believe in Jesus?  That sucks, because it means you're going to hell," my mom damn near wrecked the car.  Got home, and she explained a lot to me about different faiths, and even no faith at all, and how there were many paths for people to walk.  And so long as people are walking in the Way that we were learning about (you know, the great commandment and such -- love people), each of those was a way to God.

It made perfect sense, even to 8 yr old me.  So, maybe some of that with the kiddos.  If you want to get to Chicago, there are many means and routes to get there.  From Texas, it makes sense that our route heads north.  But for someone living in New York, their route heads west.  While each route is very different, neither one is wrong, because they all lead to the same place.  Keep your eye on the ball of that great commandment.  Pretty much every other faith - and even NON-faith - does.

[JBJ 3655]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

How do you define "rare?" Because we haven't found left in the, oh, zero planets we've actually set foot on other than earth, it must be rare? Most scientists think there's a great shot to find life on one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn at this point. Which one is it, Europa? That's in our own solar system and not even a fucking class M planet. 

Most of the dipshits posting on this site have probably fucked 3, maybe 4 whole women in their life, and infrequently. But that's not a metric I'd use to make a blanket statement like "Most people on planet earth just don't have sex, it's extremely rare." Your logic is flawed.

As for the definition of "rare" there's a ton of ways to illustrate that. If there are a billion planets or moons with life, out of hundreds of trillions or millions of trillions of planets, is it rare? By one point of view, namely statistically, sure. But that's still BILLLIONS OF PLANETS WITH LIFE, which I do not think is rare at all. TO put it another way, if you have one billions dollars, is that a lot of money? Becuase compared to the net worth of the entire planet, it isn't shit. 

You mean some dipshit journalist that always proclaims we might find life everytime there's a scientific paper about how maybe there might possibly have at one point been the correct temperature for water to form somewhere deep underneath the surface on a moon or planet? Cool.

More like "rare" as in theres have been trillions and trillions of organisms on the planet and I've never heard of a single one that has ever visited the Sun.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm curious how the folks who have moved on from organized religion are explaining religion and God to their children when they get to the 8-18 range. It's a conundrum I'm going to start to have to work through here in a few years. Particularly since my kid goes to a private religious school (mom works there, school is fucking outstanding). I have zero interest in taking him to church and teaching dogma, but I'm somewhat concerned with the potential for the whole "My Dad says God doesn't exist" conflicts with other kids that I feel like is inevitable.

Hoo boy, this is probably going to be a derail. Sorry in advance. 

I have preteen twins.  Around age eight I started having "philosophy snacks" with them on Sundays, where we sit down and discuss a particular question about life and how different thinkers, including religious ones of varying faiths, approach the question.   It has been an amazing thing for them and for me.  This book was the one we started with for guidance: 

Philosophy for Kids: 40 Fun Questions That Help You Wonder About Everything! 

Sample topics:

Are you a fair and just person?

How do you know who your friends are?

It is your duty to give to charity?

What makes something you say true?

 

We have taken the kids to worship services of a wide range of religions to expose them to what's out there and really want them to find their own way.   We're not religious but don't want to prevent them from being so if that's what they want.

As for explaining to them that I don't believe in a god, I was simple and straightforward about it.  My autistic son made it easy when he came to me very young and told me he didn't think there was a god.  He got there on his own before I ever said anything.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Samson's Wig

[HouTex 1878]

6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

And totally anecdotal, but I know some mormons of various backgrounds, and by far and away they're the nicest people in the world.  I can't think of any social, professional, religious, ethnic, etc group, that as a class are more pleasant people than those folks. 

Dunno if they have hidden-motive to install Utah Xenu as the antichrist or whatever but from my exposure so far, id rather have them as neighbors than anybody else.

My experience as well and I’ve known many of them.  One of our brand new young lawyers is Morman.  He’s a great guy.  And my late father’s best friend in the Navy was Mormon.  They had a life long friendship and my father never spoke better about another person.  

[52-80 19162]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Civil War?  No, dude....1978.  And it wasn't some archaic leftover dogma that was still on the books -- it was still practiced.  The Mormon church has a lot more recent racist demons to exorcise.

And that offers no forgiveness for other denominations that struggled with the issue -- it's the reason that the Presbyterian church fractured in the 1860s (split into two denominations -- so in Austin, for example, there was First Presbyterian Church (my church, actually) that was anti-slavery, and Central Presbyterian, which was pro-slavery.  Then, the northern church eventually got around to realizing yeah, that was bad.  And a few decades later, in 1983, the denomination formally re-unified).  There are other denominations that split over slavery that remain split.  So, I cut nobody much slack on this.

I'm no Mormon expert or historian, but like Christianity, they have different denominations varying in their beliefs and practices over time relating to race segregation. They have black members today. In the way I won't blankly label Catholics/Baptists/Anglicans/whatever as "having racist as shit beliefs", doesn't seem apt to describe them that way in 2023.

BTW, in that same decade that blacks were allowed Mormon priesthood, some of the most elite (&"liberal") universities in America enrolled women for the first time. (Yale,Dartmouth,Duke,UVA etc..).  That timeline and that binary fact... means today those institutions are sexist as shit?

[Brisketexan 105154]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I'm no Mormon expert or historian, but like Christianity, they have different denominations varying in their beliefs and practices over time relating to race segregation. They have black members today. In the way I won't blankly label Catholics/Baptists/Anglicans/whatever as "having racist as shit beliefs", doesn't seem apt to describe them that way in 2023.

BTW, in that same decade that blacks were allowed Mormon priesthood, some of the most elite (&"liberal") universities in America enrolled women for the first time. (Yale,Dartmouth,Duke,UVA etc..).  That timeline and that binary fact... means today those institutions are sexist as shit?

If they just decided to allow women in?  It might.  Because they also contemporaneously said not just "we're changing our policy," but ALSO said "our policy was flat-out wrong, and sexist?"  Yeah, that is a difference maker.  Just stating that you're no longer enforcing an awful rule is one thing (a good thing, but not the whole thing).  Following through and stating "because that rule is wrong and was always wrong" is the requisite moral acknowledgement.

Many (not all) institutions have done just that.  The mormons have not.

And again, I repeat that all of the mormons I have ever dealt with have been genuinely good, honest, and kind people.  And yes, because of that "rule change," black people can participate more fully in the church.  But the faith has a black mark that it hasn't actually taken the moral stand to remove.  And black people are damned well aware of it.

[chainsaw 9870]

6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

And totally anecdotal, but I know some mormons of various backgrounds, and by far and away they're the nicest people in the world.  I can't think of any social, professional, religious, ethnic, etc group, that as a class are more pleasant people than those folks.

Not to be too CR but those subjectively "pleasant" people voted by 21 points (Utah) and 30 points (Idaho) for a demonstrably incompetent authoritarian fascist who campaigned on, and delivered, the overturning of Roe. The LDS church also opposed desegregation as well as interracial marriage. It wasn't until the late 70's that they even acknowledged black people are people, too.

Despite all that, I agree with you that we all  probably have something to learn from how LDS families and communities are structured. Some of my best friends grew up in the faith and while they each eventually drifted away from the doctrine and towards anticapitalism, social justice, and secular values, they found ways to harmonize the "good" parts of the culture they'd grown up in with the "good" parts of the secular world they had been missing out on.

Back to the topic, I agree with the people who say prayer doesn't accomplish anything external to the prayor, and I agree with the people who say prayer is basically a species of mindfulness which can be beneficial to the prayor for reasons we don't fully understand. In that sense, prayer is a positive thing, but when prayer is used to justify inaction or when prayer (regardless of the intentions behind the prayer) has a tendency to prevent changes that need to be made, the cons begin to outweigh the pros. So I can't really agree that prayer (or religion more generally for that matter) are "harmless."

There's a persuasive case to be made that prayers have been used to prop up a decades-long pattern of inaction in the area of gun control, which has led to the harms of nutcases having easy access to weapons of war, which those nutcases used to slaughter countless innocent people.

[Murfdogg21 4413]

Whether a person believes in God or some general spirituality, many feel a connection outside of themselves with the universe or a meta physical energy, or just good vibes and kharma. If nothing else, it is meditation and self-therapy as others have mentioned. If you don’t believe there to be any such energy, that’s fine, but it’s pointless to shit on other people’s beliefs if they gain benefit, physical or mental health relief, or anything else from the practice. 

[Brisketexan 105154]

3 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

If you don’t believe there to be any such energy, that’s fine, but it’s pointless to shit on other people’s beliefs if they gain benefit, physical or mental health relief, or anything else from the practice. 

This...but you also need to complete the thought: "and those beliefs don't cause them to take harmful action/inaction with respect to others."

Abandoning people to an awful fate with nothing more than "you have my prayers [but not my actual action that might actually help you]" is a fucking problem.  It's not the prayer that's an issue.  It's that it's regularly used as a cover/excuse to hurt people, or at least not help them.  Which is kinda the exact opposite lesson of the faith these people purport to follow.

[BamaATL 16593]

I was in the grocery store yesterday and a man was loudly singing church hymns, like Jesus loves me and all that. As loud as possible.  I'll be honest, I finished shopping as quickly as possible and got the fuck out there.  Why, because to me that guy is the most likely to have a meltdown and start shooting.  I'm sure I wasn't alone in that thought.  And yes, he fit the bill, MAGA gear and all.  

Probably harmless, but you don't have to be in risk mitigation to understand that the probability just went up.  

[South Austin 52519]

7 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

I was in the grocery store yesterday and a man was loudly singing church hymns, like Jesus loves me and all that. As loud as possible. 

Was it this guy?

[BamaATL 16593]

Just now, South Austin said:

Was it this guy?

No, he isn't nearly hillbilly enough.  Plus, he doesn't appear to be sponsored by the United States.  

[Guest]

I’d also challenge the prayer naysayers that prayer can be another form of meditation/ examination of self.  Phil Jackson gets a lot of ballyho9for his alleged zen connection. I’d posit the process is not that far off from true prayer.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ClubWhatever said:

You pray to win the game.  

Definitely Tebow.

[MissingInAction 25106]

As Bill Bradley said:

"It don't make a shit."

[jdhorn92 1552]

5 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Anytime I hear some bullshit about the "power of prayer" I think of the 1.5 million children the Nazis murdered in WWII.  I'm pretty goddamned sure every single one of those kids prayed as hard as they could for God to deliver them from the evil that was Nazi Germany.  And God just sat there and let it happen.

GTFO about prayer doing shit about anything. 

It's been the will of mankind to commit sin.  The existence of sin is real.  People have free will to make decisions.  It is written, murder is sin and God has given us all the potential to live with or without sin.  Evil exists in this world and it will forever.  For those captives who Pray, we Pray for freedom from the captor.  The answer to those Prayers is not always what we want, when we want it. 

[nbmishoid 949]

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm curious how the folks who have moved on from organized religion are explaining religion and God to their children when they get to the 8-18 range. It's a conundrum I'm going to start to have to work through here in a few years. Particularly since my kid goes to a private religious school (mom works there, school is fucking outstanding). I have zero interest in taking him to church and teaching dogma, but I'm somewhat concerned with the potential for the whole "My Dad says God doesn't exist" conflicts with other kids that I feel like is inevitable.

Hoo boy, this is probably going to be a derail. Sorry in advance. 

They listened and learned by example.   Lecture ran one word:  Nope

[nbmishoid 949]

9 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

It's been the will of mankind to commit sin.  The existence of sin is real.  People have free will to make decisions.  It is written, murder is sin and God has given us all the potential to live with or without sin.  Evil exists in this world and it will forever.  For those captives who Pray, we Pray for freedom from the captor.  The answer to those Prayers is not always what we want, when we want it. 

Just from a style perspective, would you work in a few more passive voice examples?

[Neonmoon 38129]

12 minutes ago, jdhorn92 said:

It's been the will of mankind to commit sin.  The existence of sin is real.  People have free will to make decisions.  It is written, murder is sin and God has given us all the potential to live with or without sin.  Evil exists in this world and it will forever.  For those captives who Pray, we Pray for freedom from the captor.  The answer to those Prayers is not always what we want, when we want it. 

Tell that to a kid with cancer 

[Harrison Stafford 3335]

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I apprecaite your earnest response, but I don't think you grasped my point. My son is going to get plenty of biblical teaching at his school. I'm not interseted in re-enforcaing it at home. At all. I do understand what I think you're attempting to illustrate, vis a vis the teachings of jesus himself versus the other areas of the Bible, for which, yes, those are all great lessons. He'll get that at school. I'm more talking about the period of time that comes when he asks questions about God, and I decide to tell him Daddy doesn't believe in God the way they teach you at school. 

Keep postponing the discussion until he hits 12 or 13.  At that point, he’s not gonna give a shit what you think about anything.

[jdhorn92 1552]

13 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Tell that to a kid with cancer 

I know Neon, I know.  It's brutal, i wish I could.  I don't have a deep enough religious background to explain or articulate that one.  I have three kids of my own and couldn't imagine squaring that diagnosis with a good and just God.  The pat answer is God has a reason for everything he does.

Edited November 3, 2023 by jdhorn92