Shogun

[kingkoopa6 8350]

Soundtrack fire. If yall get bored 

[NAVY 6740]

Wow. Difficult shaking this sad off. Probably need to read the book again. Tai-Pan too. 
 

Beautiful stories 

[Post Oak 20213]

Loved the finale wish we could've gotten 10 extra minutes to flesh out some storylines a bit more but it was a great show 

[WBT 20565]

Great show.  I'll have to read the book now.

[Speedtrucker 2071]

Subtly good finale.

Great show, never read the book but I do feel robbed of an episode of the boat ride to Osaka.

[F250 28772]

11 minutes ago, Speedtrucker said:

Subtly good finale.

Great show, never read the book but I do feel robbed of an episode of the boat ride to Osaka.

Could have used one more episode.

[F250 28772]

Was I the only one like this after hearing Toranaga's explanation of testing Anjin by torturing the villagers?

 

[naija 2854]

that Death Poem wasn't winning many awards. lol.

[Speedtrucker 2071]

that Death Poem wasn't winning many awards. lol.

My wife and I had to pause it we busted out laughing so hard

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

So we're gonna have to wait like what, two years for the next season?

[gsoda3 3257]

27 minutes ago, F250 said:

Was I the only one like this after hearing Toranaga's explanation of testing Anjin by torturing the villagers?

that was the point. it's supposed to be a reveal, a heel turn for toranaga.  he's a narcissist who sacrificed his son, hiromatsu, and mariko, amongst all those villagers and samurai just so he could become shogun.  he was the bad guy all along, just as bad as, if not worse than, ishido.  

4 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

So we're gonna have to wait like what, two years for the next season?

no it's done.  it's part of an epic saga but clavell's other books are set a couple hundred years later. 

[F250 28772]

17 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

So we're gonna have to wait like what, two years for the next season?

It's a single season series. No mas.

[F250 28772]

12 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

that was the point. it's supposed to be a reveal, a heel turn for toranaga.  he's a narcissist who sacrificed his son, hiromatsu, and mariko, amongst all those villagers and samurai just so he could become shogun.  he was the bad guy all along, just as bad as, if not worse than, ishido.  

Yeah, I got that hence the WTF reaction. Up until that point all of his pawn sacrifices were wrapped up in Japanes duty and fate bullshit. It wasn't until that scene that he revealed he did it for the lulz.

Toranaga: "I'm going to start chopping heads off to test Anjin. Also, Anjin doesn't serve any value but I find him amusing." Fucking psycho.

[gsoda3 3257]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

Yeah, I got that hence the WTF reaction. Up until that point all of his pawn sacrifices were wrapped up in Japanes duty and fate bullshit. It wasn't until that scene that he revealed he did it for the lulz.

Toranaga: "I'm going to start chopping heads off to test Anjin. Also, Anjin doesn't serve any value but I find him amusing." Fucking psycho.

there's a scene in the book and in the 80s tv show where toranaga gets anjin to dance and sing a sea shanty for him during dinner.  it's an absurd scene but that's what came to mind when toranaga said he makes me laugh.  he's his trained monkey.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

22 minutes ago, F250 said:

It's a single season series. No mas.

Wtf? This will not stand!

[LCHorn 2620]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

that was the point. it's supposed to be a reveal, a heel turn for toranaga.  he's a narcissist who sacrificed his son, hiromatsu, and mariko, amongst all those villagers and samurai just so he could become shogun.  he was the bad guy all along, just as bad as, if not worse than, ishido.

I’ve already gotten far enough away from the book that the fx series encourages doubt on my interpretation of things, but I took away (from the book, mind you) that Toranaga saw Mariko and Anjin as subordinates but capable of understanding him and his plans, basically how he saw the world.  Everyone else was held captive to tradition and custom.  
 

He’s not amused by Anjin, rather he appreciates his insight, his expertise as a navigator, and because he’s a foreigner (and not welcome anywhere in Japan), he’s basically the only person he can have a heart to heart with and not feel like it’s at risk of being used against him.  Plus, he knows about Mariko’s affection for him and that’s confirmation of his judgment.
 

The book doesn’t make him a heel; he’s the only one capable of imposing order in Japan and he’s willing to sacrifice his loyalists if it furthers that goal.  In the book’s world he’s just holding Mariko back from dying so that her death can serve a greater purpose and she seems to understand this.  
 

I don’t recall a bargain with the Portuguese to burn the boat (I may just be misremembering it), rather, he burned it because Anjin’s friendship was important to him and it was the only way to keep him from leaving (in the subtle, Japanese elite way of navigating conflict). 

[gsoda3 3257]

I’ve already gotten far enough away from the book that the fx series encourages doubt on my interpretation of things, but I took away (from the book, mind you) that Toranaga saw Mariko and Anjin as subordinates but capable of understanding him and his plans, basically how he saw the world.  Everyone else was held captive to tradition and custom.  
 
He’s not amused by Anjin, rather he appreciates his insight, his expertise as a navigator, and because he’s a foreigner (and not welcome anywhere in Japan), he’s basically the only person he can have a heart to heart with and not feel like it’s at risk of being used against him.  Plus, he knows about Mariko’s affection for him and that’s confirmation of his judgment.
 
The book doesn’t make him a heel; he’s the only one capable of imposing order in Japan and he’s willing to sacrifice his loyalists if it furthers that goal.  In the book’s world he’s just holding Mariko back from dying so that her death can serve a greater purpose and she seems to understand this.  
 
I don’t recall a bargain with the Portuguese to burn the boat (I may just be misremembering it), rather, he burned it because Anjin’s friendship was important to him and it was the only way to keep him from leaving (in the subtle, Japanese elite way of navigating conflict). 

Good thoughts.

In the book I believe the trade Mariko makes with the church is anjin's life in exchange for her knowledge of toranaga's plans, which includes burning the boat which is why she leaves him money in her will from her estates to rebuild.

[Buzzrock 14920]

23 hours ago, F250 said:

  Hide contents

Toranaga may have won and established the Edo period but Tom Cruise will have the last laugh when he visits the Japans and teams up with Ken Watanabe.

 

Is that a good movie?

[Buzzrock 14920]

Was the village spy related to Mariko? It sounded like they had the same name. 
 

And yes, awesome show. Easy to recommend. Leave your phone in the other room. 

[billfromlaketravis 11467]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Is that a good movie?

It has some similarities to Shogun. I’d recommend it if you like this show. 

[kingkoopa6 8350]

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

[Post Oak 20213]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Is that a good movie?

It's good. Not great but I enjoyed it.

[mdmost 43001]

I was honestly surprised that Toranaga didn't send the shinobi because he knew Mariko would not allow herself to be taken alive. I'm still a tad confused why Ishido thought that was a wise move other than he didn't want his authority challenged. I enjoyed the finale but the heart of the show was really absent with her death. 

[kevwun 15783]

He never considered that Ochiba would switch sides because she hated Toranaga so much.  If you think the heir and his army is on your side no matter what, you think you can get away with most anything.

[gsoda3 3257]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Was the village spy related to Mariko? It sounded like they had the same name. 

not related.  akechi mariko, tonomoto akinao.  

[locodos 5387]

10 hours ago, naija said:

that Death Poem wasn't winning many awards. lol.

 

9 hours ago, Speedtrucker said:

My wife and I had to pause it we busted out laughing so hard

That was his best work yet!

[TonyTexas 10510]

43 minutes ago, kingkoopa6 said:

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

Seven Samurai is widely considered one of the best movies of all time. The Magnificent Seven is the Americanized version. Cinemax has it but is available for purchase on other platforms. 

[locodos 5387]

18 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

  Hide contents

except for the dream sequence where he's with his grandkids.  i don't get what they were going for.  

 

9 hours ago, F250 said:

Yeah, I got that hence the WTF reaction. Up until that point all of his pawn sacrifices were wrapped up in Japanes duty and fate bullshit. It wasn't until that scene that he revealed he did it for the lulz.

Toranaga: "I'm going to start chopping heads off to test Anjin. Also, Anjin doesn't serve any value but I find him amusing." Fucking psycho.

It shows the audience that he in fact does leave Japan and Toranaga's velvet cage.

[gsoda3 3257]

2 minutes ago, locodos said:

 

It shows the audience that he in fact does leave Japan and Toranaga's velvet cage.

but he doesn't and we know that dream sequence is just a hallucination b/c he sends mariko's rosary to the bottom of the lake with fuji. 

[kevwun 15783]

There are a whole bunch of old samurai movies starring Toshiro Mifune.  Some of them are very good. 

A couple of good books I read by Eiji Yoshikawa are Musashi and Taiko.  They are both historical fiction.  Taiko is about the dead leader in Shogun.  It's very good.  He was a very interesting character.  Musashi is a famous Japanese samurai and philosopher.

[F250 28772]

3 minutes ago, locodos said:

 

It shows the audience that he in fact does leave Japan and Toranaga's velvet cage.

Nope, that was just a dream. He is never going to leave Japan.

[locodos 5387]

4 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

but he doesn't and we know that dream sequence is just a hallucination b/c he sends mariko's rosary to the bottom of the lake with fuji. 

Wondered about that...

1 minute ago, F250 said:

Nope, that was just a dream. He is never going to leave Japan.

Really?  It's been a long long time since I read the book.

[billfromlaketravis 11467]

15 minutes ago, F250 said:

Nope, that was just a dream. He is never going to leave Japan.

Books: I believe Toranaga states in his inner monologue that he’s going to continue to burn Blackthrone’s ships as long as he needs to the Christian regents, and that he won’t be allowed to leave. 

[gsoda3 3257]

24 minutes ago, locodos said:

Wondered about that...

Really?  It's been a long long time since I read the book.

 

5 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Books: I believe Toranaga states in his inner monologue that he’s going to continue to burn Blackthrone’s ships as long as he needs to the Christian regents, and that he won’t be allowed to leave. 

yes, toranaga says he'll never let blackthorne leave. he'll keep destroying his ships.

[kingkoopa6 8350]

39 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

 

yes, toranaga says he'll never let blackthorne leave. he'll keep destroying his ships.

And that’s fine by me. Keep sending me fresh consorts to pillow. 
 

[Buzzrock 14920]

2 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

Blue Eyed Samurai on Netflix is outstanding and has been picked up for a second season. 

[A-Tex Devil 2446]

19 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

A dream within a dream. 

[HornOnTheBayou 8922]

I'm really surprised by how many people loved the finale. I thought it was really rushed. I understand the problem of trying to cram this story into ten episodes, but it really distracted from the ending. Overall, still an incredible series and one I will definitely re-watch a couple of times.

[F250 28772]

2 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

Here are some fairly recent ones that I thought were really good.

13 Assassins

The Twilight Samurai

The Last Ronin

Hara Kiri

[gsoda3 3257]

17 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

I'm really surprised by how many people loved the finale. I thought it was really rushed. I understand the problem of trying to cram this story into ten episodes, but it really distracted from the ending. Overall, still an incredible series and one I will definitely re-watch a couple of times.

i think it speaks more to how rushed of an ending the book was.  i didn't like the book ending.  

 

another difference between the book and this show is yabu's character.  i remember him being more sinister in the book but the way he was played here makes him a lovable goofball with an unfortunate bent toward self preservation in a culture that expects loyalty to the point of death.  i think i like this portrayal more- he's almost a touchstone to modern sensibilities.

[kevwun 15783]

Omi got shortchanged in the series.  He was much more important in the book.

[LCHorn 2620]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

13 Assassins

The Twilight Samurai

I've only seen these two but both are great suggestions.  Twilight Samurai is Sanada playing different song and probably an even better performance than Shogun. 

 

49 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

another difference between the book and this show is yabu's character.  i remember him being more sinister in the book but the way he was played here makes him a lovable goofball with an unfortunate bent toward self preservation in a culture that expects loyalty to the point of death.  i think i like this portrayal more- he's almost a touchstone to modern sensibilities.

I agree, in fact a lot of the changes I noted in the series I thought were sensible and interesting.  Another one was sidelining the courtesans and leaving out the arranged marriage between Blackthorne and Kiku.  It's a little wish fulfillment for a male book reader but including it here would undermine the absence created by Mariko's sacrifice. 

All of the post finale reviews/interviews with the creators are asking about the possibility of a season 2 and the show runners have basically said "Anything is possible" but that they are out book to adapt.  They are reading Tai-Pan, however, and that would also be worth a modern adaptation. 

[billfromlaketravis 11467]

24 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I've only seen these two but both are great suggestions.  Twilight Samurai is Sanada playing different song and probably an even better performance than Shogun. 

 

I agree, in fact a lot of the changes I noted in the series I thought were sensible and interesting.  Another one was sidelining the courtesans and leaving out the arranged marriage between Blackthorne and Kiku.  It's a little wish fulfillment for a male book reader but including it here would undermine the absence created by Mariko's sacrifice. 

All of the post finale reviews/interviews with the creators are asking about the possibility of a season 2 and the show runners have basically said "Anything is possible" but that they are out book to adapt.  They are reading Tai-Pan, however, and that would also be worth a modern adaptation. 

Thanks for clearing that up on Blackthorne marrying Kiku. Fuji tells the boss to not allow the Anjin to marry a courtesan, and suggests Midori (spelling?), Omi’s wife. Fuji also alludes to Mariko suggesting Midori for Anjin-son’s wife before her death. 

The boss was seriously considering Omi divorce his wife and give her to the Anjin in the final chapter. I think there’s a brief allusion to Blackthorne marrying, but I didn’t pick up a definitive marriage to Kiku. 

Edited April 24 by billfromlaketravis

[gsoda3 3257]

10 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Thanks for clearing that up on Blackthorne marrying Kiku. Fuji tells the boss to not allow the Anjin to marry a courtesan, and suggests Midori (spelling?),  wife. Fuji also alludes to Mariko suggesting Midori for Anjin-son’s wife before her death. 

The boss was seriously considering Omi divorce his wife and give her to the Anjin in the final chapter. I think there’s a brief allusion to Blackthorne marrying, but I didn’t pick up a definitive marriage to Kiku. 

the details are fuzzy to me but as i remember it omi does divorce his wife who is then give to anjin as a wife and kiku is given by toranaga to anjin as a consort.  did that actually happen?

Edited April 24 by gsoda3

[billfromlaketravis 11467]

19 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

the details are fuzzy to me but as i remember it omi does divorce his wife who is then give to anjin as a wife and kiku is given by toranaga to anjin as a consort.  did that actually happen?

I think you’re right. The boss identifies Midori as Omi’s lone weakness, and he wants his top advisor working full time for him. So he removes Midori from his house. Cold blooded. 

 

[A-Tex Devil 2446]

2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

i think it speaks more to how rushed of an ending the book was.  i didn't like the book ending.  

 

another difference between the book and this show is yabu's character.  i remember him being more sinister in the book but the way he was played here makes him a lovable goofball with an unfortunate bent toward self preservation in a culture that expects loyalty to the point of death.  i think i like this portrayal more- he's almost a touchstone to modern sensibilities.

The several anime level “Huh?”’s by Yabu cracked me up every time.  

Edited April 24 by A-Tex Devil

[billfromlaketravis 11467]

3 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

i think it speaks more to how rushed of an ending the book was.  i didn't like the book ending.  

 

another difference between the book and this show is yabu's character.  i remember him being more sinister in the book but the way he was played here makes him a lovable goofball with an unfortunate bent toward self preservation in a culture that expects loyalty to the point of death.  i think i like this portrayal more- he's almost a touchstone to modern sensibilities.

Full agreement on the book ending and how it influenced the show. 

Shit, the battle between Toranaga and Ishido is a footnote in the novel. 

[speed817 19268]

Me watching the episode last night.....

[speed817 19268]

Toranaga.....worst employer of the year 1600.....

[Speedtrucker 2071]

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?
 
️🪭️🫖

Good suggestions above.

One of my favorites is based in “modern” late 90s Japan.

The Hunted(1995), staring Christopher Lambert and John Lone.

Basically American businessman in Japan meets a woman, they spend the night together in their hotel, he accidentally walks in on a ninja assassination. They begin hunting him, a kendo master who is the last in the line of a samurai clan in a life long feud with the Ninja Clan steps in to protect him.

Kodo (the taiko drum group) did the soundtrack.

It’s a movie I loved as a teenager. I still quote plenty of lines from the movie to this day.

Plus you get to see Joan Chen topless.

Plus plus because I went to see what else they have been in. Lady Mariko from the 1980 shogun plays Samurai Takeda’s wife and archer.