Shogun

[F250 28777]

If you want to see a movie that is similar to Shogun I would suggest Ran. It covers shogunate politics with epic battle scenes. Personally, I like Ran more than Shogun.

Akira Kurosawa who also made Seven Samurai and Yojimbo made this movie.

 

 

[YChang 3452]

7 hours ago, LCHorn said:

They are reading Tai-Pan, however, and that would also be worth a modern adaptation. 

That and Noble House were my favorites from Clavell. 

[speed817 19300]

12 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

Get a PS5 and play ghost of tsushima

[bolverk 29683]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

If you want to see a movie that is similar to Shogun I would suggest Ran. It covers shogunate politics with epic battle scenes. Personally, I like Ran more than Shogun.

Akira Kurosawa who also made Seven Samurai and Yojimbo made this movie.

 

 

Thanks! Looks like it's available on Prime for free.

[Post Oak 20239]

I liked 13 Assassins alot. 

 

 

Edited April 25 by Post Oak

[speed817 19300]

48 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

I liked 13 Assassins alot. 

 

 

Has one of the funniest lines in it.....

[crony 362]

This was Toranaga's thoughts on Blackthorne from the book.

Spoiler

 

So sorry, but so necessary, Anjin-san. I saved your life, which you wanted
even above your ship. Fifty times or more I’ve had to consider giving your life
away but so far I’ve always managed to avoid it. I hope to continue to do that.
Why? This is a day for truth, neh? The answer is because you make me laugh
and I need a friend. I daren’t make friends among my own people, or among the
Portuguese. Yes, I will whisper it down a well at noon but only when I’m certain
I’m alone, that I need one friend. And also your knowledge. Mariko-sama was
right again. Before you go I want to know everything you know. I told you we
both had plenty of time, you and I.

I want to know how to navigate a ship around the earth and understand how a
small island nation can defeat a huge empire. Perhaps the answer could apply to
us and China, neh? Oh yes, the Taikō was right in some things.
The first time I saw you, I said, “There’s no excuse for rebellion,” and you
said, “There’s one—if you win!” Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree.
Everything’s right if you win.
Stupid to fail. Unforgivable.

You won’t fail, and you’ll be safe and happy in your large fief at Anjiro,
where Mura the fisherman will guard you from Christians and continue to feed
them misinformation as I direct. How naïve of Tsukku-san to believe one of my
men, even Christian, would steal your rutters and give them secretly to the
priests without my knowledge, or my direction. Ah, Mura, you’ve been faithful
for thirty years or more, soon you’ll get your reward! What would the priests say
if they knew your real name was Akira Tonomoto, samurai—spy at my
direction, as well as fisherman, headman, and Christian? They’d fart dust, neh?
So don’t worry, Anjin-san, I’m worrying about your future. You’re in good
strong hands and, ah, what a future I’ve planned for you.

 

[utee94 15826]

11 hours ago, YChang said:

That and Noble House were my favorites from Clavell. 

Yeah I'd really love to see modern adaptations of Tai-Pan and Noble House as well.

Not that I didn't love seeing Remington Steele play Ian Dunross, because I did.  But a remake with the sensitivity of this current version of Shogun, would be pretty awesome.

[gsoda3 3262]

i'm waiting for the sharpe/hornblower/dirk struan crossover personally.

[gsoda3 3262]

just read this vanity fair article on cosmo jarvis and it makes sense now. 

 

Quote

The finale opens on a disturbing vision of the future, with Jarvis in elaborate old-age makeup as Blackthorne regretfully contemplates a life of ravaging the Japanese land, as his initial plan had dictated. The scene takes on a hue that is more nightmarish fear than literal flash-forward, though: The series ends on Blackthorne aligned, if a bit uneasily, with the man who captured him back when this series began. Blackthorne’s story in Shōgun has been one of letting go of his cold-hearted mission, of embracing a place he expected to use for his own gain. It’s that complex inner conflict that you sense Jarvis will miss the most.

 

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

On 4/24/2024 at 9:50 AM, F250 said:

Nope, that was just a dream. He is never going to leave Japan.

In the dream he’s clutching Mariko’s cross. We all watched as he dropped it in the ocean after spreading Fuji’s family’s ashes. 

[LCHorn 2620]

5 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

just read this vanity fair article on cosmo jarvis and it makes sense now. 

 

 

I’ve read a couple of interviews with Kondo and Marks deconstructing the finale and I think this is an area where they didn’t quite calibrate the storytelling effectively, at least for me.  I don’t really FEEL Blackthorne‘s transition and I think it’s because there was too little made of it in the intermediate episodes.  We get the “becoming Japanese” part fine, but what was the mission again?

I’m doing a rewatch now that my wife wants to watch it and they definitely hit that beat in the first couple of episodes but maybe it’s a little too subtle.  

[52-80 19162]

Does the political importance of Mariko just seems quite overstated relative to her actual position?

Ishido is the de facto lead Regent for the entire country. Basically the prime minister or chairman of the board.

Mariko is "merely" the daughter of a subordinate to a lord/daimyo... a **disgraced** one at that.  So at best like a child of a George Santos or assistant to the regional vice president or something.

Given that Toranaga can simply command Lord Yabushige to kill himself, or that Fuji's husband committed infanticide on his own goddamn son for offending a Regent, there's such an insane disparity in the power structure that its hard to believe 1 single Mariko was the lynchpin to Ishido's future and to the Kingdom itself.  For example, when she was being really mouthy in episode 9, wouldnt it have been acceptable within the construct of the show/culture for Ishido to punish her just for being rude.

Edited April 26 by 52-80

[LCHorn 2620]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Ishido is the de facto lead Regent for the entire country. Basically the prime minister or chairman of the board.

Mariko is "merely" the daughter of a subordinate to a lord/daimyo... a **disgraced** one at that.  So at best like a child of a George Santos or assistant to the regional vice president or something.

I think you are overstating Ishido’s power and understating Mariko’s.  
 

Ishido is one of the five regents and essentially mayor of Kyoto, but he’s not able to force project much beyond it and has a fief smaller than the other four regents (also, remember these aren’t the only daimyos, just the five the taiko selected).  He can’t really do much without working through the other, wealthier regents and that’s why he has to isolate them in order to exert control.  He’s also dependent on Lady Ochiba, who controls the samurai pledged directly to the taiko’s heir.

Mariko is more like Lynda Bird Johnson Robb and if she was best friends with Caroline Kennedy as a kid.  She’s got her own money, married into a distinguished family, and her father retains respect in some quarters.  She’s also super savvy at playing the game within their carefully constructed social behaviors. 

[52-80 19162]

35 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I think you are overstating Ishido’s power and understating Mariko’s.  
 

Ishido is one of the five regents and essentially mayor of Kyoto, but he’s not able to force project much beyond it and has a fief smaller than the other four regents (also, remember these aren’t the only daimyos, just the five the taiko selected).  He can’t really do much without working through the other, wealthier regents and that’s why he has to isolate them in order to exert control.  He’s also dependent on Lady Ochiba, who controls the samurai pledged directly to the taiko’s heir.

Mariko is more like Lynda Bird Johnson Robb and if she was best friends with Caroline Kennedy as a kid.  She’s got her own money, married into a distinguished family, and her father retains respect in some quarters.  She’s also super savvy at playing the game within their carefully constructed social behaviors. 

That could be the nuance thats covered in the books, which I have not read, but is not shown in the TV series. My surface interpretation of the relative power as it's presented is this:

-Taiko has the ultimate authority, but because he's underage, he and his mom sit idle with their executive powers.

-The 5 regents are next in hierarchy. In theory equals as they abide by contracts and consensus, but obviously have soft power ie influence.

-Their army/fiefdom backs their power only if push comes to shove. Meanwhile, in the political sphere, there is ample room to jostle for lead. Ishido sat at the literal head of the room during the meetings.

 

Mariko did try to press her noble lineage ("Im the daughter or Akechai!")... but that family was dishonored, she was almost run out of the empire, and shes married to a samurai, not a Lord.  The presentation of her importance just didnt seem consistent throughout the show.

[Jerry Callo 8704]

On 4/24/2024 at 7:52 AM, kingkoopa6 said:

On that note.
anyone have the low down on what to watch next for a samurai fix ?

 

🔪 🇯🇵 ✌️🀄️🈁🪭🎏🚬⚔️🗡️💴⛩️🥋⚾️🫖🍚🍣

Kung Fu Panda.  I didn't read the books, but the movie trilogy was outstanding.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

Wasn’t a fan of the last episode. Might be worth a second viewing to reevaluate but I won’t be in a rush. Context: I’ve read the book a dozen times.

[Buzzrock 14922]

I’ve read a couple of interviews with Kondo and Marks deconstructing the finale and I think this is an area where they didn’t quite calibrate the storytelling effectively, at least for me.  I don’t really FEEL Blackthorne‘s transition and I think it’s because there was too little made of it in the intermediate episodes.  We get the “becoming Japanese” part fine, but what was the mission again?
I’m doing a rewatch now that my wife wants to watch it and they definitely hit that beat in the first couple of episodes but maybe it’s a little too subtle.  

I don’t pick up on much but wasn’t the mission that the Spanish were trying to horn in on the Portuguese honeypot that was “the Japans”?

[DDD Dad 14339]

17 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

I don’t pick up on much but wasn’t the mission that the Spanish were trying to horn in on the Portuguese honeypot that was “the Japans”?

The Spanish?

[WBT 20587]

*Dutch

[Buzzrock 14922]

I’ve been drinking 

[LCHorn 2620]

3 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

I don’t pick up on much but wasn’t the mission that the Spanish were trying to horn in on the Portuguese honeypot that was “the Japans”?

I think that’s the historical telling of it, but the show’s arc of Blackthorne depends on there being more to it than discovery or commerce.  He describes the Catholics as his enemy to Toranaga.  Why?  The show needs to connect those dots better if it wants the rejection of that to land.  

[kevwun 15795]

Yeah, they didn't get in to the silk trade very much and how Japan depended on getting it from China.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

It's literally set during the time period post reformation where catholics and protestants had been at war with each other on and off for nearly a century. 

[mdmost 43004]

9 hours ago, LCHorn said:

I think that’s the historical telling of it, but the show’s arc of Blackthorne depends on there being more to it than discovery or commerce.  He describes the Catholics as his enemy to Toranaga.  Why?  The show needs to connect those dots better if it wants the rejection of that to land.  

He explained it to Toranaga. Spain and Portugal divided the planet into two halves for their empires. 

[LCHorn 2620]

2 hours ago, mdmost said:

He explained it to Toranaga. Spain and Portugal divided the planet into two halves for their empires. 

Yes, but why does HE care so much about that?  This is why lazy story tellers always resort to tragic backstories in order to show a character arc. For example, “King Philip’s men burned down my village and and my wife and children were among the casualties.   I will not rest until every buggering Catholic meets their end.”  
 

I think they needed to re-emphasize that hate near the end to make the abandonment of it feel like character growth.  
 

I’m picking nits, though-it’s all there in the first couple of episodes.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

30 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Yes, but why does HE care so much about that?  This is why lazy story tellers always resort to tragic backstories in order to show a character arc. For example, “King Philip’s men burned down my village and and my wife and children were among the casualties.   I will not rest until every buggering Catholic meets their end.”  
 

I think they needed to re-emphasize that hate near the end to make the abandonment of it feel like character growth.  
 

I’m picking nits, though-it’s all there in the first couple of episodes.  

This version of the Shogun definitely downplayed the hatred between Protestants and Catholics and between Portuguese and Dutch/English. In the book, the Portuguese were scared to death about Blackthorne and his ship going after the annual Black Ship. Not to mention that they captured Blackthorne at one point and were going to burn him at the stake as a heretic. I’m unsure that viewer today would have fully caught onto that story line.

but I also understood this version was designed to focus more on toranaga and not as much on Blackthorne. Overall I liked this series and I have no doubt that any fan of the book can find reasons where any tv adaptation falls short.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

9 hours ago, mdmost said:

He explained it to Toranaga. Spain and Portugal divided the planet into two halves for their empires. 

At one point he also explained how Portugal was getting rich off of the trade with Japan by basically ripping them off

[Biff Tannen 45691]

I can’t believe this is only one season. I’m actually a little mad I sad through it all just to have it end like this. 

[DoobieWah 1446]

8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I can’t believe this is only one season. I’m actually a little mad I sad through it all just to have it end like this. 

In psychology journals, it’s referred to as “G.O.T. Syndrome”. 

[F250 28777]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:08 AM, 52-80 said:

Does the political importance of Mariko just seems quite overstated relative to her actual position?

Ishido is the de facto lead Regent for the entire country. Basically the prime minister or chairman of the board.

Mariko is "merely" the daughter of a subordinate to a lord/daimyo... a **disgraced** one at that.  So at best like a child of a George Santos or assistant to the regional vice president or something.

Given that Toranaga can simply command Lord Yabushige to kill himself, or that Fuji's husband committed infanticide on his own goddamn son for offending a Regent, there's such an insane disparity in the power structure that its hard to believe 1 single Mariko was the lynchpin to Ishido's future and to the Kingdom itself.  For example, when she was being really mouthy in episode 9, wouldnt it have been acceptable within the construct of the show/culture for Ishido to punish her just for being rude.

You are leaving out the power held by Lady Ochiba and her history with Mariko. Mariko's death caused Lady Ochiba to withdraw the support of the heirs army from Ishido.

The show highlighted the history between Ochiba and Mariko as well as their current feelings. It was also shown that Lady Ochiba was being advised against backing Ishido. Mariko's importance was her influence on Lady Ochiba.

Also, she wasn't being mouthy, she was clearly stating that she was obligated to follow her lord's instructions and it wasn't Ishido's place to interfere. She was behaving according to the rules while forcing Ishido to break the rules in front of everyone.

[kingkoopa6 8365]

Lil late

 

[bolverk 29683]

12 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

Lil late

 

She's adorable and delightful

[billfromlaketravis 11510]

21 hours ago, kingkoopa6 said:

Lil late

 

Really talented. I wish her well. 

[ohchaucer 1443]

Lil late
 

I would pour the tea in her ceremony so hard. Or something like that.

[LCHorn 2620]

16 hours ago, bolverk said:

She's adorable and delightful

If he’s lurking @Crayon1973

[pops 6993]

I tried. Just didn't do it for me. Didn't read the book. Didn't even look at this thread until I'd finished it all. 

[gsoda3 3262]

her mannerisms remind me of giada.

[kingkoopa6 8365]

 

[mdmost 43004]

Feel like this is not a great idea. It just won't be the same without Mariko and Fuji.

 

[kevwun 15795]

Shows generally go to shit when the tv people run out of books to adapt.

[kingkoopa6 8365]

Maybe this one different..

Take the best of the show and just make it about that. 
 

Pirate banter

pillowing consort 

samurai fights 

An all female samurai clan 

saki 

training to be samurai 

Hot naked female samurai or consorts 

sex

Zombie samurai’s 

 

[TonyTexas 10515]

Did they not learn anything from Game of Thrones about what happens when show runners try to proceed beyond the original source material?  

[EvilCaseMcCoy 691]

11 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

Did they not learn anything from Game of Thrones about what happens when show runners try to proceed beyond the original source material?  

I mean Tokyo Vice was better after they left the source material. The Magicians was better too. GoT is sort of an anomaly because GRRM told them how it was supposed to end and they basically just crammed us with the cliff notes version. 

[billfromlaketravis 11510]

5 hours ago, mdmost said:

Feel like this is not a great idea. It just won't be the same without Mariko and Fuji.

 

Yeah this a mistake. I’d be fine with a bridge episode to get us into an adaptation of Tai-Pan. 
 

But… I could probably live with it if finally get the Toranaga v Ishido battle. Please do it right. 2 episodes on the battle. 1 episode on the aftermath. 

[LCHorn 2620]

I don’t really think they are going to try to make a season 2 in earnest, this is more about giving themselves the best (somewhat legitimate) chance at a series Emmy.  
 

Marks and Kondo seem more interested in moving on to other things.  They spent at least four years on this and had something to adapt.  I doubt they are up for another four years playing in the same territory.

[rage-a-holic 4402]

2 hours ago, EvilCaseMcCoy said:

I mean Tokyo Vice was better after they left the source material. The Magicians was better too. GoT is sort of an anomaly because GRRM told them how it was supposed to end and they basically just crammed us with the cliff notes version. 

Yeah, no. The shit syfy adaptation basically ignored the book, except for some early plot elements. 

[mdmost 43004]

 

Edited May 11 by mdmost

[EvilCaseMcCoy 691]

15 hours ago, rage-a-holic said:

Yeah, no. The shit syfy adaptation basically ignored the book, except for some early plot elements. 

You mean  like Julia and Quinten roaming around forever in a state of depression until they found josh in a mansion?

Vs 

Elliott and Quinten living a complete life in a day in one of the best episodes of TV.  

The show was a lot of fun

[LCHorn 2620]

2 minutes ago, EvilCaseMcCoy said:

Elliott and Quinten living a complete life in a day in one of the best episodes of TV. 

This is continuing off topic but that episode was so well done it elevated the entire series.