MLB Hot Stove 2023/24

[Dutchrudder 11087]

Uhhh what's with the warmup thing? Was this a problem before?

Sometimes you get a guy warmed up in case the opponents might get a base runner, but if that batter gets out, you don't need to swap pitchers.  Seems like an overreach by the committee.  

[Beau Vine 53866]

I don't even understand what the warmup thing means...surely that's not saying that a guy who warms up in the BP must enter the game, is it?

Edit: I think it means that you can't send the pitcher out to warm up before the next inning, but pull him when his warmup tosses are over.

 

Halle-fucking-lewya on the runner's lane.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Beau Vine

[tx 3 putt 75959]

 

 

[shadow_operative2.0 15797]

Sheesh. 

[tx 3 putt 75959]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

Sheesh. 

 

Hopefully the super team curse holds up

 

[Scraps 13518]

Dodges tears will be extra refreshing moving forward

Its 12/325 according to Passan

[UTexasFight 9365]

6 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

 

Edit: I think it means that you can't send the pitcher out to warm up before the next inning, but pull him when his warmup tosses are over.

 

 

That’s my read.

I guess formally eliminating the 5 times a year that happens.  Seems kind of mean that washed up old pitchers have to get shelled for one more batter so the fans can show their appreciation before he walks of the field one last time 

surprised at the pitch clock reduction

[Helobious 9465]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:16 AM, TonyTexas said:

I’m looking forward to Helo’s justification when/if the Yankees throw 2,5X that at  a player who also has no major league experience. 

 

On 12/19/2023 at 12:12 PM, Helobious said:

The Yankees are not involved in the Yamamoto bidding. Ohtani sealed that one for the Dodgers.

I’ve literally done nothing but dunk on TonyTexas for the past 2-3 pages of this thread

[tx 3 putt 75959]

5 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Dodges tears will be extra refreshing moving forward

Its 12/325 according to Passan

 

 

[shadow_operative2.0 15797]

5 minutes ago, UTexasFight said:

I guess formally eliminating the 5 times a year that happens.  Seems kind of mean that washed up old pitchers have to get shelled for one more batter so the fans can show their appreciation before he walks of the field one last time

Quote

It apparently only happened 24 times last season, and two times in the World Series, per the release from MLB, which seems rare enough that you don’t need a special rule for it, but whatever. 

https://www.lonestarball.com/2023/12/21/24011370/mlb-adopts-new-rules-for-2024

It's more when a PH is announced late for the guy leading off. 

[InkaUtexas 25290]

DAMMMMMMMMMNNNNNN  They could buy back the US bases in Okinawa for that and Ohtani.

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25290]

10 minutes ago, Helobious said:

 

I’ve literally done nothing but dunk on TonyTexas for the past 2-3 pages of this thread

Hate to say it, but you called it. Guess that Taco read right for ya! Oh well, the Sox don't have to face him. @Sbbruin is happy, but the  boy will have TJ sooner than people realize.

damn, we actually agree on something....... Dogs and Cats. Oh, Arod still swallows.

[closetohumping 17354]

14 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

DAMMMMMMMMMNNNNNN  They could buy back the US bases in Okinawa for that and Ohtani.

 

 

Why do orental players like the coasts so much!!!

[tx 3 putt 75959]

 

 

[UTPhil2006 3785]

Keep it all in the NL. 

[tx 3 putt 75959]

4 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

Keep it all in the NL. 

yamamoto didn’t want to get sent home by the astros in the aL playoffs 

[closetohumping 17354]

11 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

yamamoto didn’t want to get sent home by the astros in the aL playoffs 

312 mil buys a lot of trash cans 

[tx 3 putt 75959]

 

 

[tx 3 putt 75959]

😂😂😂😂

 

[Gil Bang 25843]

Why do orental players like the coasts so much!!!

Who doesn’t?

[Dutchrudder 11087]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

 

It's not really fair to compare team spending right now, need to wait until all the dominos fall and then compare spending.  Other leagues are the same way where the big players sign first, then the rest fall in. 

[SpiralOut 1808]

I never want to hear about the Rangers paying for a title ever again.  A cool billy on two players.  Two.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

1 minute ago, SpiralOut said:

I never want to hear about the Rangers paying for a title ever again.  A cool billy on two players.  Two.  

Why not?  They weren’t the first team to buy a title and won’t be the last, but doesn’t change the fact they bought a title.  Not that it matters, flags fly forever.

[Burt 4062]

5 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

It's not really fair to compare team spending right now, need to wait until all the dominos fall and then compare spending.  Other leagues are the same way where the big players sign first, then the rest fall in. 

You're right. Every other team is just waiting for the market to be set.  And its almost there, but not quite.  First the Dodgers need to complete trades for Cease and Snell, then other teams will start throwing billions around, too.

[Sbbruin 21690]

This is what “all in” looks like.  And I’m all for it.

[Dutchrudder 11087]

1 hour ago, Burt said:

You're right. Every other team is just waiting for the market to be set.  And its almost there, but not quite.  First the Dodgers need to complete trades for Cease and Snell, then other teams will start throwing billions around, too.

Is this sarcasm? There are still plenty of free agents to be signed, and several will make 9 figures. I would assume those guys aren't going to be signed by the dodgers, but who knows at this point.

Snell is a free agent and will get a huge deal, but you can't trade for him. I'm sure the Padres would be happy to accept some free prospects for letting them sign him though.

And the rest of the league should be thanking the Mets, Yankees, etc who drove up the Dodgers price. I don't think anyone predicted more than 200m for Yamamoto. 27m a year for 12 years on a 25 year old guy who has never played in America is a hell of a gamble. Dude needs to be top 3 in Cy Young voting several times to make that worth it. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Dutchrudder

[Beau Vine 53866]

9 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

yamamoto didn’t want to get sent home by the astros in the aL playoffs 

Then he should've signed with the Rangers.

[Helobious 9465]

3 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Why not?  They weren’t the first team to buy a title and won’t be the last, but doesn’t change the fact they bought a title.  Not that it matters, flags fly forever.

This dumb bullshit again. Everyone “buys” titles. The Astros had the 7th highest payroll in 2022. 
 

Also, what the fuck is wrong with going out and paying to put a quality product on the field? Is it more noble to be the A’s and not even try to field a competitive team?

[closetohumping 17354]

40 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

Is this sarcasm? There are still plenty of free agents to be signed, and several will make 9 figures. I would assume those guys aren't going to be signed by the dodgers, but who knows at this point.

Snell is a free agent and will get a huge deal, but you can't trade for him. I'm sure the Padres would be happy to accept some free prospects for letting them sign him though.

And the rest of the league should be thanking the Mets, Yankees, etc who drove up the Dodgers price. I don't think anyone predicted more than 200m for Yamamoto. 27m a year for 12 years on a 25 year old guy who has never played in America is a hell of a gamble. Dude needs to be top 3 in Cy Young voting several times to make that worth it. 

I mean Shohei and Nomo never played in the majors either.  Yoshinobu apparently has elite stuff. 

[Dutchrudder 11087]

4 hours ago, Helobious said:

This dumb bullshit again. Everyone “buys” titles. The Astros had the 7th highest payroll in 2022. 
 

Also, what the fuck is wrong with going out and paying to put a quality product on the field? Is it more noble to be the A’s and not even try to field a competitive team?

Fans of small market teams know they can't spend as much as those big city teams, so it creates that perception of inequality. There have been plenty of instances where a great player left a small or mid market team for money that their previous team could never dream of spending. 

To their credit, the league has tried to move things more towards competitive balance with luxury taxes, but without a floor, it really stretched the gulf between the haves and have-nots. In any case, it allows us to laugh at teams that fail at buying rings like the Mets last year. I'll be rooting against the Dodgers either way, but it will be extra funny if spending billions doesn't get them any rings. 

[shadow_operative 15931]

 

 

[Helobious 9465]

22 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

Fans of small market teams know they can't spend as much as those big city teams, so it creates that perception of inequality.

That’s cute that you bought into the small-market team narrative. Probably sounds good to people without critical thinking skills.

100% of MLB teams could easily afford Ohtani’s contract. There’s no teams with poor owners, there’s no teams hurting for money. None. The only difference is teams like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees (kind of) are willing to spend money to put a good product on the field. The rest of the teams don’t care enough to cut into their profits and spend bigger. 

[Beau Vine 53866]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

That’s cute that you bought into the small-market team narrative. Probably sounds good to people without critical thinking skills.

100% of MLB teams could easily afford Ohtani’s contract. There’s no teams with poor owners, there’s no teams hurting for money. None. The only difference is teams like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees (kind of) are willing to spend money to put a good product on the field. The rest of the teams don’t care enough to cut into their profits and spend bigger. 

The first step to "affordable" is understanding that contracts are an investment, not an expense.

[WBT 20376]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

100% of MLB teams could easily afford Ohtani’s contract. There’s no teams with poor owners, there’s no teams hurting for money

That's true.

It's also true that even with these signings, yhe Dodgers will probably make a bigger profit than everyone but maybe the Yankees.

[Dutchrudder 11087]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

That’s cute that you bought into the small-market team narrative. Probably sounds good to people without critical thinking skills.

100% of MLB teams could easily afford Ohtani’s contract. There’s no teams with poor owners, there’s no teams hurting for money. None. The only difference is teams like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees (kind of) are willing to spend money to put a good product on the field. The rest of the teams don’t care enough to cut into their profits and spend bigger. 

I never said they couldn't afford Ohtani's contract, I said they can't afford to spend as much as big city teams. As in the team payrolls that are 200m+. There's no way small market teams are making enough to cover that much annually. Maybe for a year or two they could take losses and then cut costs to recover, but they can't sustain that. 

[Helobious 9465]

39 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

There's no way small market teams are making enough to cover that much annually. Maybe for a year or two they could take losses and then cut costs to recover, but they can't sustain that. 

Between the media contracts and revenue sharing, they’re making more than enough to cover it. It’s just their owners would rather use that money to line their own pockets instead of reinvesting it into their team.  

[UpperWestside 6081]

9 hours ago, Helobious said:

This dumb bullshit again. Everyone “buys” titles. The Astros had the 7th highest payroll in 2022. 
 

Also, what the fuck is wrong with going out and paying to put a quality product on the field? Is it more noble to be the A’s and not even try to field a competitive team?

Yes the goal is now to spend as little as possible so you can say that you got maximum bang for your buck on WAR. You also want to be able to say that your owner and GM are very shrewd in how they spend money. You definitely don’t want your team to spend freely on players. That’s frowned upon by other fans of the poor teams. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

10 hours ago, Helobious said:

Also, what the fuck is wrong with going out and paying to put a quality product on the field?

Nothing. I guess in your blind rage you missed this part:

 

Quote

Not that it matters, flags fly forever.

Quote

The Astros had the 7th highest payroll in 2022. 

Roughly top 25% of the league. Ooooooh, Yankee fan be mad again. 

[Helobious 9465]

1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Nothing. I guess in your blind rage you missed this part:

 

Roughly top 25% of the league. Ooooooh, Yankee fan be mad again. 

And in 2023 the Rangers spent a grand total of $14 million more on total payroll than the Astros did. The Astros actually had a much higher 26 man payroll than the rangers did, as much of the rangers payroll was on IL. Explain again how the rangers “bought” wins, while the Astros didn’t buy any wins?

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

32 minutes ago, Helobious said:

And in 2023 the Rangers spent a grand total of $14 million more on total payroll than the Astros did. The Astros actually had a much higher 26 man payroll than the rangers did, as much of the rangers payroll was on IL. Explain again how the rangers “bought” wins, while the Astros didn’t buy any wins?

https://www.mlb.com/news/world-series-champions-built-through-free-agency

Any more stupid questions?

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

49 minutes ago, Helobious said:

And in 2023 the Rangers spent a grand total of $14 million more on total payroll than the Astros did. The Astros actually had a much higher 26 man payroll than the rangers did, as much of the rangers payroll was on IL. Explain again how the rangers “bought” wins, while the Astros didn’t buy any wins?

2022 Rangers with WAR >= 1.0, free agent signings highlighted.  Total FA WAR = 21

 

2022 Astros with WAR >= 1.0, free agent signings highlighted (I even included the Verlander since he was a FA signing in 2021 then had a temp assignment in NYM before coming home).  Total FA WAR = 7.8

[Helobious 9465]

33 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/world-series-champions-built-through-free-agency

Any more stupid questions?

Shit I didn’t realize that. They should’ve done things the right way by losing on purpose for years to sign higher draft picks (you know, the kind that are unanimously wanted by all teams so it’s not like you’re even relying on your own talent evaluation), and then literally cheat to win a title.

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

Just now, Helobious said:

Shit I didn’t realize that. They should’ve done things the right way by losing on purpose for years to sign higher draft picks (you know, the kind that are unanimously wanted by all teams so it’s not like you’re even relying on your own talent evaluation), and then literally cheat to win a title.

They tried that too, but sucked at it.

[tx 3 putt 75959]

 

[Vic Mackey 46858]

They tried that too, but sucked at it.

We didn't suck at beating the Astros in the playoffs, though.

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

23 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

2 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

They tried that too, but sucked at it.

We didn't suck at beating the Astros in the playoffs, though.

No you didn’t. Maybe it won’t take another seven years for your team to make the playoffs again.

[tx 3 putt 75959]

 

[shadow_operative2.0 15797]

2/$24M for Garver to Sea, good fit for both. 

[tx 3 putt 75959]

He better get out of country asap …

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by tx 3 putt

[Dutchrudder 11087]

Luxury tax payment calculations for 2023 are out, and we can chalk up one more loss for the Mets this season. 

Quote

 

Eight Teams Combine For Record $209.8MM In Luxury Tax Bills

Major League Baseball has finalized the luxury tax calculations for the 2023 season, and the eight teams over the Competitive Balance Tax threshold will combine for a total bill of $209.8MM, Ronald Blum of the Associated Press reports.  Both the total number of tax-paying teams and the total sum are new records, surpassing the previous highs of six teams (in 2016 and 2022) and $78.5MM (in 2022).

Here is what each of the eight teams owes for surpassing at least the $233MM base CBT threshold….

Mets: $100,781,932

Padres: $39.7MM

Yankees: $32.4MM

Dodgers: $19.4MM

Phillies: $6.98MM

Blue Jays: $5.5MM

Braves: $3.2MM

Rangers: $1.8MM

As a reminder of how the luxury tax operates, the CBT figures are determined by the average annual value of salaries for players on the 40-man roster.  A player earning $20MM over two seasons, for example, has a CBT number of $10MM, even if the player might earn $8MM in the first year of the contract and $12MM in the second year.  Deferred money in a contract can reduce a luxury tax number to some extent — most famously, Shohei Ohtani’s $700MM deal with the Dodgers contains $680MM in deferred money, so his CBT hit will be roughly $46MM per season instead of $70MM.

A team is considered a “first-time payor” if they haven’t spent above the CBT threshold in the previous season.  A first-time payor would owe a 20% surcharge on any dollar spent between $233MM and $253MM, 32% of anything between $253MM and $273MM, 62.5% on anything between $273MM and $293MM, and then 80% of overages for anything beyond $293MM.  These percentages rise if a team is a tax payor for two consecutive seasons, and then even further if a team exceeds the CBT line in three or more consecutive seasons.  This year’s CBT class featured three first-time payors (Texas, Atlanta, Toronto), three two-time payors (Philadelphia, both New York teams) and two three-time payors (San Diego, Los Angeles).

The $293MM threshold was instituted in the last Collective Bargaining Agreement as a fourth penalty tier, and it is unofficially known as the “Steve Cohen Tax” in a reference to the Mets owner’s penchant for big spending.  Even though New York has only topped the CBT whatsoever in 2022 and 2023, it isn’t surprising that Cohen’s team set new standards for tax payouts.  The Mets’ tax payroll of $374.7MM and approximate $100.78MM tax bill far exceeded the 2015 Dodgers’ previous records of $291.1MM and $43.6MM, respectively.

This bill would’ve been even higher if the Mets hadn’t unexpectedly struggled, and unloaded some expensive contracts at the trade deadline in order to save some money and reload with an eye towards probably 2025 as a more clear-cut return to contention.  Blum also notes that the Mets received a $2,126,471 tax credit related to a CBA provision, which slightly reduced their bill further.

As always, the actual financial cost of exceeding the tax is perhaps the least-important part of the penalties, especially for teams who barely across the first threshold.  Teams who exceed the CBT line would face further punishment in regards to free agents who reject qualifying offers, whether that translates to additional compensation required to sign a QO-rejecting player, or lesser compensation received if a team’s own qualified free agent signs elsewhere.  For instance, signing Ohtani cost the Dodgers not just $700MM, but also $1MM in international draft pool money and their second- and fifth-highest picks in the 2024 draft.  For a team like the Padres, should Blake Snell or Josh Hader sign elsewhere, San Diego’s compensatory draft selection wouldn’t come until after the fourth round of the 2024 draft.

Spending on talent is more often than not a recipe for success on the field, though obviously hardly a guarantee.  The Mets had a losing record, and the Padres and Yankees each squeaked over the .500 mark with 82-80 records.  The other five tax payors reached the playoffs, though the Phillies and the World Series champion Rangers were the only members of that group of five to win at least one postseason series.

The $209.8MM in tax revenues will be split up in three ways by the league.  The first $3.5MM is devoted to funding player benefits, $103.15MM will go towards funding individual player retirement accounts, and the other $103.15MM will be put into a supplemental commissioner’s discretionary fund and distributed amongst revenue-sharing recipient teams who have grown their (non-media) local revenue over a pre-determined number of years.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/12/eight-teams-combine-for-record-209-8mm-in-luxury-tax-bills.html