Flooring issue with contractor

[Baboontyme 2814]

Surly has good minds for this sort of thing. I'm too mad to think rationally right now. 

Doing a remodel. We have an old school mid 70s colonial with a "circle" floorplan on the first level. Part of the remodel is the kitchen and dining area. Included in scope is LVT flooring for the kitchen/dining, hall and front foyer. This leaves the (currently carpeted) living room out. The living room is approximately 215 sq/ft. I asked the builder for a quote to extend. The quote was $6k. The LVT we are looking at is $4/sq ft. I called the flooring store directly and asked them what they charge to install and they told me between $2.50 and $2.75/sq ft. The catch is they don't want to lose the contractor's business so they would need written sign off from them that our job is complete and it was ok to work with us if we went back to them after the fact. I seriously doubt this crook will give that. Plus there's no guarantee the lot would even match.  I would love to punt the entire flooring portion of the contract and farm it out but I'm sure they won't agree to that and issue credits. Hell if they think a 215 sq ft living room is worth $6k that would be like a $15k credit but that's probably a pipe dream. 

What do I do?

[Chewbacca 7780]

Find a different flooring store and see if they carry the same product?

[Bevo 13579]

2 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

Surly has good minds for this sort of thing. I'm too mad to think rationally right now. 

Doing a remodel. We have an old school mid 70s colonial with a "circle" floorplan on the first level. Part of the remodel is the kitchen and dining area. Included in scope is LVT flooring for the kitchen/dining, hall and front foyer. This leaves the (currently carpeted) living room out. The living room is approximately 215 sq/ft. I asked the builder for a quote to extend. The quote was $6k. The LVT we are looking at is $4/sq ft. I called the flooring store directly and asked them what they charge to install and they told me between $2.50 and $2.75/sq ft. The catch is they don't want to lose the contractor's business so they would need written sign off from them that our job is complete and it was ok to work with us if we went back to them after the fact. I seriously doubt this crook will give that. Plus there's no guarantee the lot would even match.  I would love to punt the entire flooring portion of the contract and farm it out but I'm sure they won't agree to that and issue credits. Hell if they think a 215 sq ft living room is worth $6k that would be like a $15k credit but that's probably a pipe dream. 

What do I do?

If you are in Austin, you will get good pricing from The Tile Guy. They also have hardwood that will run you about $5 and hardwood tile that is less. Tile flooring costs more to install, though. They don't do installs but they could steer you to the right guy or I could once you pick something out.

[Baboontyme 2814]

I am not in Austin but thank you. 

So before the lady at the flooring store was clued in she told me coming back and doing it at a later date I would risk it looking different because it would likely come from a different lot. If I buy it from a different store that all but assures that. Or maybe it doesn't, I'm unfamiliar with the product but that is what she told me. 

[Catpfish 618]

What if you just buy the flooring now and find another contractor after the current one is done.  You should be able to find one that isn't the store.

[Baboontyme 2814]

2 minutes ago, Catpfish said:

What if you just buy the flooring now and find another contractor after the current one is done.  You should be able to find one that isn't the store.

That was what I was thinking after I calmed down a bit. What is preventing a friend from walking into the store right now and buying 300 sq ft of it? I guess no way to be sure it is coming from the same "lot" as what they are going to install in "2-3 weeks". 

[Catpfish 618]

Any idea on when the tile will be delivered for installation?  The packaging will have the lot # on it.  You can then check with other suppliers (or even the same one) and see if they have the same lot.  I would imagine that the lot runs are pretty massive, but that's just a WAG

[Gil Bang 25975]

the flooring guy is probably upset about his station in life.

[horn4life 3762]

Why can't you simply line item, scratch the flooring?  $6K for 215 square feet?  That's bullshit!  First off there are a ton of tile folks out there, but seems like  more than half the products come from Daltile.  As has been said Tile Guy is a good and knowledgable resource.  I will also throw out Hard Wood Bargains for non-tile. They seem to have a grade or two of quality above for the same price.  Floor and Decor is good too from my experience.

I am simply taking the bid for the main room and looking at the sq foot cost, then I am asking why is it so much fucking more?  Change order rip offs are often where most of the profit on a job is made, because... they rip off the homeowner.

I am negotiating with the contractor, and getting the price down.  Or I am pulling all the flooring from him.  Flooring then floor trim are the last parts of the job.  Get a written explanation as to why the price is so radically different for that 215 sq. feet.  There are probably some sort of laws about gouging on change orders, but the only way you have leverage is just to pull the flooring and trim work.  Normally on tile/hardwoods the contractor is only getting a 10% break (maybe 15%) on materials, so he is screwing you on labor.  Hopefully you have a very detailed quote you can work off of.

Tile and hardwoods are all about "the first row" where they start.  Good floor laying guys will do a LOT of measuring, before snapping that first line to get started.  Most rooms/homes do not have square walls. Math is crucial especially if you have tile at entry points into the home.  In general you do not want smaller cut tiles at these entry points.  Usually on tiling there is a primary wall and the longest run that make the starting point obvious. The other thing you need to make sure they do is level the floor.  They may not need to float the whole thing, but I guarantee you there are some low spots that need a little filling.

Anyhow sorry for your problems, but I am negotiating first.  And the only real leverage you have is pulling that work from the contractor. (assuming you can do this with your contract?)  

Your concerns about lots not matching is legit!  In fact it's best to make sure if you have a large area that you work out of multiple boxes at once unless ALL of the tile is from the same lot.  Usually the warehouse guy is just loading up whatever is on the pallet.  $6000 for 215 square feet? Who the fuck charges almost $30 a square foot?  That's gouging plain and simple.  You can also just start nit picking the shit out of him.  Refusing to sign off on things going forward until every little fucking thing is fixed, look hard and you will find shit to annoy the contractor with.  I am still trying to process $30 a square foot...?

 

[Bevo&Pevo 5207]

^^^ That sounds like.."you got money on your mind and your mind on your money" thinking.  I bet; you could easily find some contractors from South of the border to do it for less.  They'd be grateful as hell.  Before and After pix?

[horn4life 3762]

1 hour ago, Bevo&Pevo said:

^^^ That sounds like.."you got money on your mind and your mind on your money" thinking.  I bet; you could easily find some contractors from South of the border to do it for less.  They'd be grateful as hell.  Before and After pix?

Hell I will go to wherever and do the whole job, for only $27 a square foot!  See... saved 10% right there! 🙄

[Baboontyme 2814]

I did talk to a GC friend in another state and he pointed out a few things I wasn't considering, but still...

The builder is factoring in tear out and haul away of existing carpet and padding, the trim work with the baseboards and any leveling that would need to be done. My guess is they get all of this quoted out and maybe it's around 3k and then they double it as a mark up. 

I have inquired about if they have already placed the order for my flooring selections. If not I'm going to ask about removing the flooring from the contract altogether but I am not optimistic that they will be amenable to this, and even if they are I can guarantee you the credits issued will not come close to adding up on a sq ft basis to what he quoted for the additional flooring. 

This happened with the painting too. Painting was our responsibility, not part of the contract. When the drywall was done, both the builder and I thought it was a good idea to paint before the cabinets started going up in the kitchen. I asked him to send his painter out for a quote. Large kitchen plus office basement plus dormer addition/master suite and he quoted me 13k for priming and painting. I laughed in their faces. I had a crew of Mexican guys come out the next day and did the entire job for $4k. 

[Baboontyme 2814]

Motherfucker. They said they would be ok with punting the flooring altogether so we would have to take that on and they would give us credit. 

I did some math and the entire area that was in scope was about 725 square feet. The credit? Of course it was quoted originally "at cost" so it would be $6500. 

So I can punt on 720 sq ft of flooring at a savings of $6500, I can pay them $6k to do the extra 215 sq ft or I can try to buy the additional product and have someone do it after the fact and risk it looking like dog shit. This is so fun, I'm glad I'm doing this. Really making my life swell. 

[fuggled 576]

1 hour ago, Baboontyme said:

Motherfucker. They said they would be ok with punting the flooring altogether so we would have to take that on and they would give us credit. 

I did some math and the entire area that was in scope was about 725 square feet. The credit? Of course it was quoted originally "at cost" so it would be $6500. 

So I can punt on 720 sq ft of flooring at a savings of $6500, I can pay them $6k to do the extra 215 sq ft or I can try to buy the additional product and have someone do it after the fact and risk it looking like dog shit. This is so fun, I'm glad I'm doing this. Really making my life swell. 

Sounds shitty.  Do you have any kind of itemized quote that shows how they were pricing the flooring?  What does your payment schedule look like?  If neither of those indicate how the flooring was priced, I'd try telling the contractor they need to set a per sq ft price that applies to puts and take and then you'll make the call on what's in or out.  If they don't agree to that, are you willing to cancel the project?  Have you gotten any independent quotes to do the whole floor?

[Chewbacca 7780]

5 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

Motherfucker. They said they would be ok with punting the flooring altogether so we would have to take that on and they would give us credit. 

I did some math and the entire area that was in scope was about 725 square feet. The credit? Of course it was quoted originally "at cost" so it would be $6500. 

So I can punt on 720 sq ft of flooring at a savings of $6500, I can pay them $6k to do the extra 215 sq ft or I can try to buy the additional product and have someone do it after the fact and risk it looking like dog shit. This is so fun, I'm glad I'm doing this. Really making my life swell. 

I'd call them out on that shitty math.  Ask how the first 725 feet costs $9/sf and then the next 215 feet costs $28/sf.  This guy sucks.  The cost should be a straight per square foot cost.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Chewbacca

[Baboontyme 2814]

They say that the original pricing was done at cost with zero markup. They say that standard markup is 50% and the new quote includes tear out and haul away of the existing carpet and padding in the living room, floor material and installation, and trim/baseboard finish. I asked what if I do the tear out and haul away and that brought the quote down to 4600 🙄

A friend gave me a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of and that is to ask to swap out the basement office flooring, which was in scope, with the living room. They are roughly the same size and if I do the carpet tear out I can't imagine that this would be anything other than easier for them. 

I would have to do the basement flooring and trim on my own but bfd, then I don't have to worry about matching anything. I should have an answer on Monday. Fingers crossed, this shit ruined my week.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

They’ll come back and say it’s not equal because the basement only entails carrying materials down so it was cheaper in the original bid.

[CoTex 1160]

Don’t let this contractor make you his bitch.  Fight with him over every little thing until it’s perfect.  This is your home and you have to live in it.

 

oh, and keep us posted.

[Chewbacca 7780]

They say that the original pricing was done at cost with zero markup. They say that standard markup is 50% and the new quote includes tear out and haul away of the existing carpet and padding in the living room, floor material and installation, and trim/baseboard finish. I asked what if I do the tear out and haul away and that brought the quote down to 4600
A friend gave me a great suggestion that I hadn't thought of and that is to ask to swap out the basement office flooring, which was in scope, with the living room. They are roughly the same size and if I do the carpet tear out I can't imagine that this would be anything other than easier for them. 
I would have to do the basement flooring and trim on my own but bfd, then I don't have to worry about matching anything. I should have an answer on Monday. Fingers crossed, this shit ruined my week.

They are lying.

[Baboontyme 2814]

Oh I'm aware. I just don't have any leverage and I want them out of my house asafp. It's lovely sending two kids to school every day having to make lunch on a card table with no kitchen sink. This was all supposed to be done over the summer. My kitchen was torn out on 7/5 yet here we are. 

[Baboontyme 2814]

It's 15 extra square feet and they have do a subfloor so $990. Only $66 sq/ft. I told them to order the tile but before I sign I want it line item'd. And I'm going to sign but I'm going to tell them that I am aware they are price gouging me and will make sure that my neighbors and community know how they operate. And I guess I have to now turn into that guy pretending I care about every little thing that they fucked up and calling them out on it. We are really laid back in reality but gloves are off now. 

[Baboontyme 2814]

I am fuming the more this dances around in my head. My sanity is worth a grand. My sanity is worth a grand. I need a distraction and a drink. 

[Sbbruin 21861]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:21 PM, Baboontyme said:

I am not in Austin but thank you. 

So before the lady at the flooring store was clued in she told me coming back and doing it at a later date I would risk it looking different because it would likely come from a different lot. If I buy it from a different store that all but assures that. Or maybe it doesn't, I'm unfamiliar with the product but that is what she told me. 

We put in a lot of LVT in our office buildings.  The lots don't vary almost at all if it's the same product.  Carpet can be harder to match, but LVT is pretty spot on.

[Baboontyme 2814]

Y'know what, screw it. I'm going to tell them to get lost. I think the odds are pretty good we can get it to match pretty closely, and if it doesn't? It's a good story and it will make me feel happy inside that I told that fat fuck to piss off. Thank you for helping me see the light SB. That was the tipping point I needed. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:03 PM, Baboontyme said:

Y'know what, screw it. I'm going to tell them to get lost. I think the odds are pretty good we can get it to match pretty closely, and if it doesn't? It's a good story and it will make me feel happy inside that I told that fat fuck to piss off. Thank you for helping me see the light SB. That was the tipping point I needed. 

Yeah fuck those guys.  Plenty of good contractors out there to go along with the bad. Not worth letting this stress you out this bad. 

[Baboontyme 2814]

Update. Sent my mother in law in to the store covertly back when this was going down to order 250 sq ft of the same flooring. I have it on hand.

In the meantime mil saw the carpet we are doing in the basement and decided it would be a nice Christmas gift for us to carpet the main stairway, upstairs hallway and master suite addition in the same carpet. This was never in scope with the contractor. She bought through the same store.

Last week they were here to install the lvt. I told them what was going on, and that I wanted them to come back and do the living room when they come to do the carpet. They said great, thank you, call the store and tell them.

I've been waiting a week for a quote and I found out why. Indeed they went to the builder and asked his permission. And he said no. I said why can you do that carpet upstairs for us but not the floor and they said it's because he never gave us a quote for that area.

To think I even told him I had payment ready for the other change orders. Now I will definitely not be scratching that check until every last thing is completed to my satisfaction. Asshole.

[Bevo 13579]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:53 AM, Baboontyme said:

Motherfucker. They said they would be ok with punting the flooring altogether so we would have to take that on and they would give us credit. 

I did some math and the entire area that was in scope was about 725 square feet. The credit? Of course it was quoted originally "at cost" so it would be $6500. 

So I can punt on 720 sq ft of flooring at a savings of $6500, I can pay them $6k to do the extra 215 sq ft or I can try to buy the additional product and have someone do it after the fact and risk it looking like dog shit. This is so fun, I'm glad I'm doing this. Really making my life swell. 

What if you pay for an additional 215 sq ft. of flooring without install? Or ask them the make, product line and lot number of the tile being installed. The Tile Guy asks for a specific lot number all the time and typically there are only 1 or 2 distributors in the area for a particular brand of tile so if you purchase tile within a reasonable time period, it is probably all coming from the same lot. In fact, it pretty much has to because 2 different lots will not precisely match. Pro tip - whenever you purchase tile it is best to buy at least a couple of extra boxes and store them in your attic.