Sustainable living

[Frank Drebin 5639]

6 hours ago, troph said:

Because why? Because our primary driver is electric? Jesus man. It’s an older car, I fucking hate the gas station, I hate changing oil and fluids and all that shit, it saves me cash, and the way we power it, we have a compelling clean use case understanding the build not so much. But newsflash the energy and impact cost of building just about anything is high, hence don’t replace. Now if I was trading in electric vehicles every 2 years I’d agree with you about trying to be cool.  But as it stands I’m not trying to be cool, I am cool.
 

What does your F350 run on?

Or your ski boat?

Edited November 10, 2023 by Frank Drebin

[troph 24797]

43 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

What does your F350 run on?

Or your ski boat?

F350 has 7000 miles in 4 years. I’ll put that up against a commuter ICE.

I’ll give you the ski boat but we probably run that thing 50-60 hours per year? We fill up maybe 5-6 times a year? That’s about 300-350 gallons of fuel? How does that stack up against a commuter ICE?  We have a secondary driver that is ICE, we try not to use it but we do. Our fuel consumption target is to be far less than the average 2 car household not be carbon zero.

Just like I acknowledge building a house is carbon intensive, so is building a car, so is travel, so is single use plastic, so is red meat consumption. So is our secondary driver as an ICE. Shit man, we burn solid fuel fire wood for pleasure in the winter too, you forgot that.

no one I know who drives electric or has solar or gives money to rain frost preservation or hydro power projects, ocean clean up projects or solar power generation projects (like through terra pass) claims to be carbon neutral.  We just want to try to offset or reduce what we can and what do we get? we get assholes telling us we are jerkwads for doing something. Fuck that.

A lot of y’all project. I don’t drive an electric car and think anything other than it’s a smoother and quieter ride, cost less to operate, it has virtually no maintenance, and in that singular moment I’m not pumping out noxious and climate dangerous fumes. That’s it. I’m not assuming anything about you, I’m not looking down on you, but assholes think electric car owners are hypocrites. No we are just trying to do what we can. 

On the flip side you have folks who say they want to do something then they say all the options are bad so they do nothing. I’ll keep doing what we can and keep inching forward. 

we don’t compost though we all should consider it, we may next year. That’s a big one. Heck red meat is terrible for your health and the planet but I had steak last weekend and yet I still try to eat less of it for a multitude of reasons. Can you please post an meme about me and that decision?
 

And when electric tow vehicles become viable for ordinary use we may go that route. I’d consider an electric boat too but it’s not there yet.

Just because I’m trying in various areas of my life doesn’t mean I have to score 100% it means I need to keep improving.

Shitting on people who try to do better is one of my biggest pet peeves. The conservative attack on electric car drivers with shitty Facebook memes is exactly that. So maybe being trigger happy is appropriate. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[troph 24797]

6 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Being an ass. Did you forget what site you are on? And don't ask me what me and my wife drive. Let's just say we are not Surly 1%. 

[CycleTex87 2970]

16 hours ago, Not that Bob said:

Lots of the bottles had the original bottling plant city of origin stamped on the bottom. It was fun to get a bottle from a distant plant. 

Back in the day we would all get a coke then throw some money in a pile and whoever was farthest away got the pot. 

[troph 24797]

We have bags of wine corks can’t throw those away. Recycling them seems like a pain, cork shortages tho?

dude, tennis balls, wow. There’s only so many walkers out there that can use them.

add those to the piles of athletic shoes.

Our DNA dictates we fuck and consume - and in a modern world consumption takes some odd twists and turns. None of us are really immune from that drive. Me included.

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Guest]

Don't you live in some mansion overlooking the lake with swimming pool or something? 

[troph 24797]

11 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Don't you live in some mansion overlooking the lake with swimming pool or something? 

Smaller than your McMansion. More energy efficient than 98% of any house out there. We pushed electricity out to the grid all summer at peak hours. we used grid power at night. My electric bill was probably 1/3 of the average. Fuck guys I drive an electric car. I get it I’m the devil.
 

Next conservative talking point please. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Texzilla58 4735]

We ship huge amounts of water in household products needlessly. Adds bulk to shipment so we have massive trailers lugged by diesel tractors getting this stuff to stores. Most of your household products are 95% water. Laundry detergent, dish soap, bleach, shampoo, surface cleaner, on and on could be sold in packets of Kool aid envelopes or a lifesaver candy. I’ve been involved in some startups on this ha failed; consumers love the idea and won’t do it. Until P&G does it it won’t ever happen.

And reconsider your Amazon purchases and compare. Amazon has quietly increased prices on things it hates shipping. Like paper towels. Why? Because bricks retail and distribution is more efficient generally than dropship to home. (Another reason to bust up Amazon. Free shipping is a mindfuck). Consider Walmart.com and others as pricing is often cheaper. And if you’re buying your meat and nine pound can of tuna at Costco/Sams head over to the paper/household aisle.

[Guest]

Lots of bargaining in this thread.

If you were serious about sustainable living, as described here, you would live a fuckton more like Jeremiah Johnson or Native American tribes and their ways.

That isn't the goal of much of this discussion.

[Celery Man 20949]

7 hours ago, PTINS said:

I enjoy the dialog on the merits of individual recycling, getting it from Amazon and Walmart to the blue recycling bin on trash day, but the lack of demand for the recycled plastics, whatever that may be, is the root cause. Where is Kamala Harris?

lol what

[Frank Drebin 5639]

10 minutes ago, slorch said:

Lots of bargaining in this thread.

If you were serious about sustainable living, as described here, you would live a fuckton more like Jeremiah Johnson or Native American tribes and their ways.

That isn't the goal of much of this discussion.

Because people are a lot of talk and hypocrites about most things, including "sustainable" living.

[Celery Man 20949]

and that is why it is stupid to try and do better

[Frank Drebin 5639]

1 hour ago, troph said:

F350 has 7000 miles in 4 years. I’ll put that up against a commuter ICE.

I’ll give you the ski boat but we probably run that thing 50-60 hours per year? We fill up maybe 5-6 times a year? That’s about 300-350 gallons of fuel? How does that stack up against a commuter ICE?  We have a secondary driver that is ICE, we try not to use it but we do. Our fuel consumption target is to be far less than the average 2 car household not be carbon zero.

Just like I acknowledge building a house is carbon intensive, so is building a car, so is travel, so is single use plastic, so is red meat consumption. So is our secondary driver as an ICE. Shit man, we burn solid fuel fire wood for pleasure in the winter too, you forgot that.

no one I know who drives electric or has solar or gives money to rain frost preservation or hydro power projects, ocean clean up projects or solar power generation projects (like through terra pass) claims to be carbon neutral.  We just want to try to offset or reduce what we can and what do we get? we get assholes telling us we are jerkwads for doing something. Fuck that.

A lot of y’all project. I don’t drive an electric car and think anything other than it’s a smoother and quieter ride, cost less to operate, it has virtually no maintenance, and in that singular moment I’m not pumping out noxious and climate dangerous fumes. That’s it. I’m not assuming anything about you, I’m not looking down on you, but assholes think electric car owners are hypocrites. No we are just trying to do what we can. 

On the flip side you have folks who say they want to do something then they say all the options are bad so they do nothing. I’ll keep doing what we can and keep inching forward. 

we don’t compost though we all should consider it, we may next year. That’s a big one. Heck red meat is terrible for your health and the planet but I had steak last weekend and yet I still try to eat less of it for a multitude of reasons. Can you please post an meme about me and that decision?
 

And when electric tow vehicles become viable for ordinary use we may go that route. I’d consider an electric boat too but it’s not there yet.

Just because I’m trying in various areas of my life doesn’t mean I have to score 100% it means I need to keep improving.

Shitting on people who try to do better is one of my biggest pet peeves. The conservative attack on electric car drivers with shitty Facebook memes is exactly that. So maybe being trigger happy is appropriate. 

 

Someone is a little defensive.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

and that is why it is stupid to try and do better

no, but this sumbeech is chock full of half-measures and bullshit that is pissing up a rope when brought to scale.

If you fire a bb gun a t a tank, I guess you can still say you fought back and ease your conscience.

Edited November 10, 2023 by slorch

[troph 24797]

7 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Someone is a little defensive.

Ive only seen 8000 Facebook memes projecting personal insecurities and lies about those of us who try. It’s more than irritating.  I don’t know a single person over the age of 35 that drives electric or has solar or donates to climate or conservation causes that believes they are carbon zero or neutral. We all realize it’s complicated with trade offs and imperfect. Yet conservatives continually make straw men arguments attacking us inferring we are gullible and hypocritical. It’s annoying and counter productive.

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Celery Man 20949]

4 minutes ago, slorch said:

no, but this sumbeech is chock full of half-measures and bullshit that is pissing up a rope when brought to scale.

If you fire a bb gun a t a tank, I guess you can still say you fought back and ease your conscience.

is the guy who points and laughs at the dude with the bb gun brave, smart, and improving the situation in any way at all?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

is the guy who points and laughs at the dude with the bb gun brave, smart, and improving the situation in any way at all?

Yeah.  Laughter is good.

Good luck on your trail of virtue.  LOL.  May your efforts come back to you tenfold.

 

The point remains, nobody in this thread is serious about "sustainable living."  IT's more , "Let's ease my conscience and cling to an imaginary high ground."  and my scoffing/ cynicism around said activities by no means indicates IDGAF about the world we live in.  Again, it's about pissing up ropes and whatnot.

Edited November 10, 2023 by slorch

[troph 24797]

6 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

is the guy who points and laughs at the dude with the bb gun brave, smart, and improving the situation in any way at all?

No but he feels better. They project their unwillingness to do anything at the rest of us. And their fundamental argument is the “tragedy of the commons” - I can’t make a dent so why try.  
 

the most powerful thing you can do to help the environment and climate right now? VOTE to support these initiatives.  
 

Global wide market adoption and government mandates is 99% of the issue. But the US, Texas, and each household is within that scope. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Celery Man 20949]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Yeah.  Laughter is good.

Good luck on your trail of virtue.  LOL.  May your efforts come back to you tenfold.

cool buddy, hope you feel smart and good about yourself, which is your underlying goal every time you engage in this specifically stupid genre of slorching

[Frank Drebin 5639]

14 minutes ago, troph said:

Ive only seen 8000 Facebook memes projecting personal insecurities and lies about those of us who try. It’s more than irritating.  I don’t know a single person over the age of 35 that drives electric or has solar or donates to climate or conservation causes that believes they are carbon zero or neutral. We all realize it’s complicated with trade offs and imperfect. Yet conservatives continually make straw men arguments attacking us inferring we are gullible and hypocritical. It’s annoying and counter productive.

I would not call you gullible.  You are hypocritical.  Just accept it.  Your carbon footprint is much larger than the average human despite your stated concern about climate change.  Boats, diesel trucks, multiple ICE engines, nice house out on the lake, big 5th wheel, lots of travel to exotic places, guided fishing trips.

By the way, I like EVs.  They make a lot of sense.  My new truck is a hybrid.  But I bought it not because of any concern about climate change.  I bought it because it gets about four more miles to the gallon than my old truck and it has an onboard generator.  Not going full electric because I live in Houston and we get hurricanes.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Frank Drebin

[Celery Man 20949]

Literally everyone is hypocritical. A particularly stupid lie that many people tell themselves is that it is better to accept bad than to try and do good and often fall short.

[Frank Drebin 5639]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Literally everyone is hypocritical. A particularly stupid lie that many people tell themselves is that it is better to accept bad than to try and do good and often fall short.

Well, Troph was the one bitching about being called hypocritical.

[troph 24797]

9 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I would not call you gullible.  You are hypocritical.  Just accept it.  Your carbon footprint is much larger than the average human despite your stated concern about climate change.  Boats, diesel trucks, multiple ICE engines, nice house out on the lake, big 5th wheel, lots of travel to exotic places, guided fishing trips.

By the way, I like EVs.  They make a lot of sense.  My new truck is a hybrid.  But I bought it not because of any concern about climate change.  I bought it because it gets about four more miles to the gallon than my old truck and it has an onboard generator.  Not going full electric because I live in Houston and we get hurricanes.

The average human? Yes of course. The average US household? Sunk cost yes mostly because of concrete to make an ICF home. Actual carbon use, nope. Our daily household carbon use is lower than the average family of 4-5, and that includes 1500-1750 miles on our truck and our boat usage. Our house is extremely efficient, we push solar power to the grid to save Greg abbott’s ass in the summer, and our gasoline and diesel consumption is way below the average 2 car family. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Celery Man 20949]

My interpretation of this conversation is that troph was complaining about the same attitude that I'm talking about now - people laughing at the futility/hypocrisy/etc of folks who are trying to do better as a way to deal with their own cognitive dissonance around not trying to help at all. I'm not going back to analyze the exchange because I'm getting sucked into reply/reply/reply thing here that I'm not trying to do but I clocked that as frustration and not defensiveness.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Celery Man

[troph 24797]

4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

My interpretation of this conversation is that troph was complaining about the same attitude that I'm talking about now - people laughing at the futility/hypocrisy/etc of folks who are trying to do better as a way to deal with their own cognitive dissonance around not trying to help at all. I'm not going back to analyze the exchange because I'm getting sucked into reply/reply/reply thing here that I'm not trying to do but I clocked that as frustration and not defensiveness.

100% correct. And I’ve not told a single person what they should do. 
 

hypocrisy is telling others to do differently than you. I’m not doing that. It’s futile to tell anyone what they should do. Hypocrisy is saying you are doing something and not doing it. I’m not doing that either. I’m trying to do better I’m not trying to be carbon zero. 
 

I am frustrated with the political climate of pointing and laughing at liberals because they are trying but not being perfect.

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Woodrow Call 494]

I've tried to simply use common sense in my own efforts which date to the mid 1980's when I became deeply involved in bioregionalism and the study of reinhabitory strategies.  One of the first things I significantly limited was air travel. Then I moved to an area where car travel was limited. This is a huge problem for us in America, because our cities are basically built for cars, and it's very challenging to find decent employment where you can walk, bike or take public transportation to work. 

We started composting, limiting meat consumption and other things. We moved to a much smaller home.

I'm not a fan of electric vehicles for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. The mining, but also the human cost. Much of the labor is supplied by poor workers and they're exposed to a number of harmful things in the production. Obviously, fossil fuel is a huge issue, but every can of coke and every pill we consume is dependent upon fossil fuels. It's not going away. 

The answer to all of this, if it's an answer, is reduced use and scaling back population growth. The population is sustained by industrial agriculture (another huge problem), so as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline. None of us want mass starvation and death, but nature bats last. We can either control it on our own, or Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope. Addressing our ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior, and in the United States, this seems highly unlikely. Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.  It also will require us to address growth capitalism, a system that is by its very nature unsustainable. You can't have unlimited growth in a closed system. In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

[Biff Tannen 45684]

7 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

I've tried to simply use common sense in my own efforts which date to the mid 1980's when I became deeply involved in bioregionalism and the study of reinhabitory strategies.  One of the first things I significantly limited was air travel. Then I moved to an area where car travel was limited. This is a huge problem for us in America, because our cities are basically built for cars, and it's very challenging to find decent employment where you can walk, bike or take public transportation to work. 

We started composting, limiting meat consumption and other things. We moved to a much smaller home.

I'm not a fan of electric vehicles for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. The mining, but also the human cost. Much of the labor is supplied by poor workers and they're exposed to a number of harmful things in the production. Obviously, fossil fuel is a huge issue, but every can of coke and every pill we consume is dependent upon fossil fuels. It's not going away. 

The answer to all of this, if it's an answer, is reduced use and scaling back population growth. The population is sustained by industrial agriculture (another huge problem), so as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline. None of us want mass starvation and death, but nature bats last. We can either control it on our own, or Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope. Addressing our ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior, and in the United States, this seems highly unlikely. Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.  It also will require us to address growth capitalism, a system that is by its very nature unsustainable. You can't have unlimited growth in a closed system. In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

Fantastic post. One of the biggest reasons people act like there’s nothing that can, or even more enraging, SHOULD be done is the concept of American exceptionalism. These are the absolute dumbest people and are a huge problem with our society. Several have posted on this thread. 

[Celery Man 20949]

I'm not even on the stupid part of the dunning-kruger curve when it comes to ag but I think nitrogen used in fertilizer is kind of a big problem? Or, it's a much worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, although even just from a quick google it looks like it may be pound for pound worse but accounts for far less than carbon dioxide.

Either way, that's a thing too. I'd be interested if an @Al_4_ISU could comment generally (sorry to tag you buddy although actually I am interested) but I think generally there are a lot of farmers who are interested in adopting more "green" practices when it comes to stuff like cycling and fertilizing and what have you but the in general (and especially one with as... complicated of a landscape of regulation and incentivization/etc) there needs to be policy that helps support those kinds of choices economically. I know there's a lot of incentives around carbon intensity in ethanol production (which I think is state by state and California leading the charge) but I'm not sure how well that trickles back to the "planting crops" phase of decision making.

Again, I know just enough to be incredibly stupid on this topic but am curious about it.

[PTINS 3468]

54 minutes ago, troph said:

F350 has 7000 miles in 4 years. I’ll put that up against a commuter ICE.

I’ll give you the ski boat but we probably run that thing 50-60 hours per year? We fill up maybe 5-6 times a year? That’s about 300-350 gallons of fuel? How does that stack up against a commuter ICE?  We have a secondary driver that is ICE, we try not to use it but we do. Our fuel consumption target is to be far less than the average 2 car household not be carbon zero.

Just like I acknowledge building a house is carbon intensive, so is building a car, so is travel, so is single use plastic, so is red meat consumption. So is our secondary driver as an ICE. Shit man, we burn solid fuel fire wood for pleasure in the winter too, you forgot that.

no one I know who drives electric or has solar or gives money to rain frost preservation or hydro power projects, ocean clean up projects or solar power generation projects (like through terra pass) claims to be carbon neutral.  We just want to try to offset or reduce what we can and what do we get? we get assholes telling us we are jerkwads for doing something. Fuck that.

A lot of y’all project. I don’t drive an electric car and think anything other than it’s a smoother and quieter ride, cost less to operate, it has virtually no maintenance, and in that singular moment I’m not pumping out noxious and climate dangerous fumes. That’s it. I’m not assuming anything about you, I’m not looking down on you, but assholes think electric car owners are hypocrites. No we are just trying to do what we can. 

On the flip side you have folks who say they want to do something then they say all the options are bad so they do nothing. I’ll keep doing what we can and keep inching forward. 

we don’t compost though we all should consider it, we may next year. That’s a big one. Heck red meat is terrible for your health and the planet but I had steak last weekend and yet I still try to eat less of it for a multitude of reasons. Can you please post an meme about me and that decision?

And when electric tow vehicles become viable for ordinary use we may go that route. I’d consider an electric boat too but it’s not there yet.

Just because I’m trying in various areas of my life doesn’t mean I have to score 100% it means I need to keep improving.

Shitting on people who try to do better is one of my biggest pet peeves. The conservative attack on electric car drivers with shitty Facebook memes is exactly that. So maybe being trigger happy is appropriate. 

 

"Shitting on people who try to do better is one of my biggest pet peeves. The conservative attack on electric car drivers with shitty Facebook memes is exactly that. So maybe being trigger happy is appropriate."

Kudo's for doing what you can when you can. Our lifestyle comes with a certain amount of hypocrisy, and there is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about that.

I used to have my '87 944-S and an '03 F250.

Everyone gets painted with the same brush. The "Don't blame me, I drive an electric car" bumper sticker people bring a lot of wrath to you and everyone else. 

 If you drive anything, you are part of the problem. Yes, EV are more environmental friendly than ICE. But the gazillion miles of asphalt and concrete roadways and parking lots probably contribute more to global warming than the vehicles themselves, regardless of the type. 

The radiant heat sink in metro areas changes weather patterns to the extent that rain clouds disappear or simply go around the concrete jungle. When I was a kid and went to visit my dad in Manvel, he told me it rained every day in Houston, somewhere. That hasn't been the case in a long time. 

It is amazing how different 100 degrees feels in town v. out in the country.

Red Meat? I have a high metabolism and eat and graze all day. After my 5 bypass surgery, I tried to eat healthier. (I hardly eat any vegetables, I yacked at the table the first time my dad made me eat spinach.)  After cutting back on red meat and eating lots of avocado's and dark chocolate and various nuts daily because they were good for me; all I did was started eating a lot of good fat, where I wasn't eating any of that bad fat before.  I gained weight to point I was the heaviest I had ever been in my life. Both my doc and cardiologist told me the same thing; Quit doing that shit, I was better off eating a steak and salad every day and getting my daily exercise and being active. Eat healthy when you can.

Compost: Multiple benefits, better than putting organic waste in a landfill.  Any food attracts things that eat. We live in an area that doesn't have mosquitos, roaches, gekkos, or mice. Not going to do anything that challenges that.

We eat organic compounds, carbo-hydrates, yet scorn the use of oil and gas, hydro-carbons. Different slice of the same pie.

[Frank Drebin 5639]

15 minutes ago, troph said:

The average human? Yes of course. The average US household? Sunk cost yes mostly because of concrete to make an ICF home. Actual carbon use, nope. Our daily household carbon use is lower than the average family of 4-5, and that includes 1500-1750 miles on our truck and our boat usage. Our house is extremely efficient, we push solar power to the grid to save Greg abbott’s ass in the summer, and our gasoline and diesel consumption is way below the average 2 car family. 

Not sure you realize how the other half lives.  Drive around any big city.  The bottom half lives in multi-family dwellings.  Takes public transportation.  Does not go on vacation. Does not have F350s, Fifth Wheel trailers, boats, guided fishing trips, long plane flights to the South Pacific, drives to the mountains, 3-4 vehicles, or houses on the lake.

I doubt anyone on this board who is college educated can say they are in the bottom half of carbon footprint when you look at everything.

[troph 24797]

13 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

I've tried to simply use common sense in my own efforts which date to the mid 1980's when I became deeply involved in bioregionalism and the study of reinhabitory strategies.  One of the first things I significantly limited was air travel. Then I moved to an area where car travel was limited. This is a huge problem for us in America, because our cities are basically built for cars, and it's very challenging to find decent employment where you can walk, bike or take public transportation to work. 

We started composting, limiting meat consumption and other things. We moved to a much smaller home.

I'm not a fan of electric vehicles for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. The mining, but also the human cost. Much of the labor is supplied by poor workers and they're exposed to a number of harmful things in the production. Obviously, fossil fuel is a huge issue, but every can of coke and every pill we consume is dependent upon fossil fuels. It's not going away. 

The answer to all of this, if it's an answer, is reduced use and scaling back population growth. The population is sustained by industrial agriculture (another huge problem), so as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline. None of us want mass starvation and death, but nature bats last. We can either control it on our own, or Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope. Addressing our ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior, and in the United States, this seems highly unlikely. Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.  It also will require us to address growth capitalism, a system that is by its very nature unsustainable. You can't have unlimited growth in a closed system. In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

Sadly I think this is true. Here is where I am gullible - I’m hopeful we can contain development to urban areas and protect the natural world, we can push to nuclear and other scalable clean(er) power, we can advance technology for batteries, we can advance human rights, we can innovate for wide spread carbon capture, reduce single use plastic consumption, and clean up our environment and oceans. I think there are times where good things have happened and necessity is the mother of all invention will prove true. I think that’s below a 1% chance but one can hope.

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[956 Worldwide 34715]

The U.S. has a tremendously outsized impact on consumption and carbon and other non-sustainable practices.  If the average American just trims a few percentage points from his or her consumption it has a cumulative impact greater than someone elsewhere cutting thirty percent. 
 

That’s why it’s shitty to call people out who are doing something even if it isn’t full Jeremiah Johnson. It’a still doing a lot and making a difference. Like how a small tax cut (or hike) on the wealthiest corporations and people can have a bigger impact on the budget than a comparatively larger increase or cut to the middle class. 

[troph 24797]

4 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Not sure you realize how the other half lives.  Drive around any big city.  The bottom half lives in multi-family dwellings.  Takes public transportation.  Does not go on vacation. Does not have F350s, Fifth Wheel trailers, boats, guided fishing trips, long plane flights to the South Pacific, drives to the mountains, 3-4 vehicles, or houses on the lake.

I doubt anyone on this board who is college educated can say they are in the bottom half of carbon footprint when you look at everything.

Fair point.  I was comparing to the average 2 car family with 2-3 kids, working jobs, driving to work and after school stuff, middle class, upper middle class, and top 1% class. You are absolutely correct about the entire country. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[Brisketexan 105139]

7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Water:  Forget Lake Travis water levels. The Trinity Aquifer water level dropped over fifty feet in less than 2 years. Ground water use in Texas is not sustainable, and it is getting exponentially worse every day. 

Yep. FIL spent his career studying water and river in Texas. His take. We are fucked. Stop building now, and maybe, if we get a few good hurricanes. 

A good book for anyone interested in water, ya know, that important thing, is "When the Rivers Run Dry". 

Water is the big one that most people just whistle on past.  We notice it a bit more around here, because of our periodic (and regularly occurring) droughts, but even then....once the lake refills, nobody gives a shit again until the next drought.

Water is THE resource to be fought over, worldwide.  It's scarce, has more pressure being put on it every day, and the mechanisms to capture it, provide it, etc., are only getting more expensive: we've captured and delivered all the cheap, easy water.  The next round of water is going to cost much, much more.

The good thing is that people fight over it.  And my business is representing people and entities in those fights.  I'm gonna have plenty of work till I decide to hang it up.

[troph 24797]

Like I said brisket our DNA demands we fuck and consume. Water is just another casualty along the way. 

[Brisketexan 105139]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

Like I said brisket our DNA demands we fuck and consume.

Troph, you know me so, so well.

[Celery Man 20949]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Like I said brisket our DNA demands we fuck and consume. Water is just another casualty along the way. 

like you two specifically?

[Trey3216 15346]

18 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

I piss in the backyard to save water.  I feel like I'm doing my part.

One night, my wife (then girlfriend) heard me open the door and wander out into the yard at my duplex I was living in to find me pissing in the yard.  I was quite imbibed, and she says something like "what the hell are you doing pissing outside?".  Then, in my quick witted math brain, I started spewing out numbers...

 

-"So...there are 350 million Americans...roughly half male."

-Say there are 50mm men aged 18-50, and of that, 1/2 of them like to have a few beers on Friday and Saturday nights. 

-Now, the American male will take a piss 4-6 times per night while they're having a few beers, so let's say 4.

-It's roughly 1.6 gallons per flush, but let's say 1 gallon to be conservative.

-So, if our 25mm American males piss 4 times per night when they're drinking...at 1 gallon per flush...That's 100mm gallons of water every friday and saturday night of the year.  

-So...Multiply 200mm x 50, because even the most fervent consumer usually has 1 or 2 weekends off per year, and my plan will help America save 10bn gallons of water per year....and that's just on the weekends!!!!!!

 

 

She wasn't amused, or impressed.  

[Woodrow Call 494]

12 minutes ago, troph said:

Sadly I think this is true. Here is where I am gullible - I’m hopeful we can contain development to urban areas and protect the natural world, we can push to nuclear and other scalable clean(er) power, we can advance technology for batteries, we can advance human rights, we can innovate for wide spread carbon capture, reduce single use plastic consumption, and clean up our environment and oceans. I think there are times where good things have happened and necessity is the mother of all invention will prove true. I think that’s below a 1% chance but one can hope.

I hang on to a sliver. My son is now an attorney at EPA. He keeps me up to date on the good, the bad and the ugly, and there are some reasons for hope. 

[Snake Diggity 4624]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Water is the big one that most people just whistle on past.  We notice it a bit more around here, because of our periodic (and regularly occurring) droughts, but even then....once the lake refills, nobody gives a shit again until the next drought.

Water is THE resource to be fought over, worldwide.  It's scarce, has more pressure being put on it every day, and the mechanisms to capture it, provide it, etc., are only getting more expensive: we've captured and delivered all the cheap, easy water.  The next round of water is going to cost much, much more.

The good thing is that people fight over it.  And my business is representing people and entities in those fights.  I'm gonna have plenty of work till I decide to hang it up.

It’ll be a problem but it’s not without solutions.  Theres PLENTY of water.  It just isn’t drinkable and it isn’t where all the people are.

Desalinization is easy and can easily solve water shortages in any coastal city.  Problem just has to get bad enough to generate the required political will.

Vegas and Phoenix should not be a thing.  Stupid to build cities in a desert.

[Snake Diggity 4624]

I don’t water my grass.  I drive <5000 miles a year.  I put the recycling in the proper bin.  I vote for people who support society making sacrifices for sustainability.

But I am a sucker for convenience; Amazon boxes litter my home at all times, I drink bottled water when the tap is right there, and I am quick to throw shit away rather than fix it.  I also own a home with an in-ground swimming pool.

I have a lot of hope for our resources lasting, because of the advancement of technology and pending population decline.  But we probably aren’t doing nearly enough to combat climate change and global warming.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Snake Diggity

[Brisketexan 105139]

9 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

It’ll be a problem but it’s not without solutions.  Theres PLENTY of water.  It just isn’t drinkable and it isn’t where all the people are.

Oh, there are solutions.  But people (and the politicians who often have to implement the solutions....then try to get re-elected) aren't gonna like em.  Because they cost $$$$$$$ compared to the relatively easy and cheap water we've wrangled thus far.

Sure, desalinization is an option.  A very pricey one, all costs considered.

Getting water from where it is to where people are?  Even with a relatively short distance (think E. Texas to the metroplex or Centex)....you don't wanna know what a pipeline project would cost (it would be huge, there are construction costs, condemnation costs, and ongoing pumping expense).

Not to say that these solutions won't ever happen.  Just buckle up for the cost.  The first 80% of the water we need is cheap.  The next 20% is wildly expensive.  And people complain "I'm using even LESS water than before, why is MY bill going up?"  Because 1 million people moved into the area to consume the same water sources you have consumed.  We have to obtain enough water for everyone.  That additional water is expensive.

Sustainability, in general, is going to be much more expensive than our previously haphazard consumption.

[Foosters 17856]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Yeah.  Laughter is good.

Good luck on your trail of virtue.  LOL.  May your efforts come back to you tenfold.

 

The point remains, nobody in this thread is serious about "sustainable living."  IT's more , "Let's ease my conscience and cling to an imaginary high ground."  and my scoffing/ cynicism around said activities by no means indicates IDGAF about the world we live in.  Again, it's about pissing up ropes and whatnot.

As usual, Slorch hits the nail on the head.

During Christmas time, I drive around and see all these upper class people donating their money and time to the underprivileged and you can almost see the imaginary high ground they cling to.

Obviously if one were serious about helping the less fortunate, they'd be selling their house, moving into a cheap apartment, and distributing the proceeds to the most needy. 

[mdmost 43001]

I get weirdly angry when I take the garbage out in our house every week because I don't get where all this shit comes from. I don't understand why we have so much trash. We recycle as much as possible. I think the worst thing we do as a family is clothing. Our kids have so many clothes that they quickly grow out of or move on from. We try to donate as much as possible but that's really just passing the buck onto someone else to get rid of our "trash". Then I think about all the other "crap" we donate and what happens with that stuff at some point. Then I realize, we just consume way too much. I don't really know how to break that habit. I too try to not use Amazon as much as possible. It's hard though as Amazon has helped usher out the mom and pop stores we used to buy these items from. I also try to limit overbuying grocery items so we're not wasting as much and getting so many additional pieces of trash. 

I try to impress upon my kids that all of this stuff both comes from somewhere and then eventually has to end up somewhere. They just think it's all magical. They want something, it can be ordered for them and delivered. They want water, they just open a tap and it's magically there. They flush, the water magically goes away. They have no concept of where it comes from, how it got to us, and where it eventually goes away to. All they care about is that it arrives when they want it. I fear some day they're going to have to face real shortages, especially with water. So yeah, turn the water off when you brush your teeth and drink that half glass of water you just poured. Also, finish the soft drink you opened and PUT IT IN THE F'ING RECYCLING BIN AND NOT THE TRASH, YOU HEATHENS!

Edited November 10, 2023 by mdmost

[Guest]

1 hour ago, troph said:

Smaller than your McMansion. More energy efficient than 98% of any house out there. We pushed electricity out to the grid all summer at peak hours. we used grid power at night. My electric bill was probably 1/3 of the average. Fuck guys I drive an electric car. I get it I’m the devil.
 

Next conservative talking point please. 

 

Lol. McMansion. Try '80s build on a fifth of an acre. I don't think you're the devil for an electric car, I applaud it. I want to switch. 

I just think the best thing we can do for sustainability is reduce, reduce, reduce. It's still hard.

I look at other people and get grossed out by consumption. I imagine someone from Europe would look at me and be grossed out by my relatively modest lifestyle by American standards.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I get weirdly angry when I take the garbage out in our house every week because I don't get where all this shit comes from. I don't understand why we have so much trash. We recycle as much as possible. I think the worst thing we do as a family is clothing. Our kids have so many clothes that they quickly grow out of or move on from. We try to donate as much as possible but that's really just passing the buck onto someone else to get rid of our "trash". Then I think about all the other "crap" we donate and what happens with that stuff at some point. Then I realize, we just consume way too much. I don't really know how to break that habit. I too try to not use Amazon as much as possible. It's hard though as Amazon has helped usher out the mom and pop stores we used to buy these items from. I also try to limit overbuying grocery items so we're not wasting as much and getting so many additional pieces of trash. 

I try to impress upon my kids that all of this stuff both comes from somewhere and then eventually has to end up somewhere. They just think it's all magical. They want something, it can be ordered for them and delivered. They want water, they just open a tap and it's magically there. They flush, the water magically goes away. They have no concept of where it comes from, how it got to us, and where it eventually goes away to. All they care about is that it arrives when they want it. I fear some day they're going to have to face real shortages, especially with water. So yeah, turn the water off when you brush your teeth and drink that half glass of water you just poured. Also, finish the soft drink you opened and PUT IT IN THE F'ING RECYCLING BIN AND NOT THE TRASH, YOU HEATHENS!

A lot of this. It's also surprising to me because I've always been pretty minimalist. I feel like these days I can't really call myself that anymore. It just fucking accumulates. Looking in the closet from my desk, there's a router that we won't ever use. Spare pillows that get used once or twice a year, books that I won't ever look at again (but still want to keep, jic), an old computer I don't know what to do with. A telescope? WTF? 

[wild_turkey 3159]

no, but this sumbeech is chock full of half-measures and bullshit that is pissing up a rope when brought to scale.
If you fire a bb gun a t a tank, I guess you can still say you fought back and ease your conscience.

Half-measures are better than zero measures.

One person firing a BB at a tank won’t do anything. The internet tells me a metal BB has a mass of about 0.35 grams and an M1 Abrams tank is about 65,000 kg. If all 332 million people in the U.S. fired a BB at the tank at the same time, it would be a collective total mass of 116,000 kg striking the 65,000 kg tank.

There’s a quote to the effect of “We don’t need a few people to do this perfectly, we need everyone to do it imperfectly.”

[wild_turkey 3159]

Because people are a lot of talk and hypocrites about most things, including "sustainable" living.

Perhaps we are all hypocrites. Our very existence, all 7.9 billion of us, is bad for this planet. The worst thing most of us will ever do in terms of carbon footprint is to procreate. Each little fuck trophy we make is going to consume more and inflict damage.

We are humans and we like human things. We’re posting on this message board with devices that have a carbon footprint. Some people have boats or like to travel.

So, in light of that, should we not even try? Does troph owning a lake house make it so that she can’t participate in other actions without being ridiculed by you? Do you want to go ahead and ridicule every person here with more than one child? Should we keep drinking Fiji and Evian from plastic bottles, driving our F250s, watering our massive lawns, and just ride this ship down?

Do you have kids? What kind of world do you want them to live in? What kind of world do you want your great grandchildren to inherit?

Would you rather sit around and point out that every single person is a hypocrite? Is any discussion of trying to do a small good thing too hypocritical for you because you will point out every person’s shortcomings? I haven’t seen one positive thing from you, just showing up long enough to inject negativity.

That’s not what this is about. That attitude will be the death of humanity.

[Al_4_ISU 12463]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

I'm not even on the stupid part of the dunning-kruger curve when it comes to ag but I think nitrogen used in fertilizer is kind of a big problem? Or, it's a much worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, although even just from a quick google it looks like it may be pound for pound worse but accounts for far less than carbon dioxide.

Either way, that's a thing too. I'd be interested if an @Al_4_ISU could comment generally (sorry to tag you buddy although actually I am interested) but I think generally there are a lot of farmers who are interested in adopting more "green" practices when it comes to stuff like cycling and fertilizing and what have you but the in general (and especially one with as... complicated of a landscape of regulation and incentivization/etc) there needs to be policy that helps support those kinds of choices economically. I know there's a lot of incentives around carbon intensity in ethanol production (which I think is state by state and California leading the charge) but I'm not sure how well that trickles back to the "planting crops" phase of decision making.

Again, I know just enough to be incredibly stupid on this topic but am curious about it.

We're always looking for ways to consume less resources per acre.  Most of our nitrogen comes from the old fashioned source - shit.  We use some dry urea and anhydrous ammonia as well, but the goal with nitrogen application is to get it into the plant and avoid or minimize any extra release into the atmosphere.

A lot of the bad rap farmers get for nitrogen run-off comes from large livestock integrators who are either not involved in crop production, or only raise crops as a means to dispense of manure.  Because they have more manure than land they can responsibly fertilize with it, they tend to over apply, and create the bulk of the nitrogen related issues seen in intensely row-cropped areas.

An operation like ours has more farmland than manure, so we can apply the manure we do have in a timely fashion, and an appropriate amount of ground.  This helps ensure that the soil absorbs the nitrogen and stores it through the winter to apply to the seed/plant in the spring.  A lot of our land will never get manure, and on those farms we either apply anhydrous in the fall, or dry urea in the spring and growing season.  Again, all of this is done to maximize absorption by the corn plant and minimize evaporation or run off.

At the end of the day, the guys raising corn for ethanol want to capture as much nitrogen as possible and let as little as possible evaporate into the atmosphere or run off into the water system.  Because they get more money for growing more corn.  The guys raising corn because they need to get shit out of their stock yards or barns are less concerned with this, generally, because they get paid by selling more cows and pigs.

[Brisketexan 105139]

Thanks for the reply, Al.

You are.............                     ..........the shit.