Sustainable living

[Celery Man 20,966]

Thanks Al. I'll give that some good thought while I'm applying wet urea to my yard tonight.

[Wilcox Cummingtonite 3,025]

I can barely afford my recurring expenses each month even after cutting out quite a bit of fluff (including all vacations and eating out). Does that count as sustainable?

My wife and I make nearly 200k/year gross. Our society is fuuuucked.

[Celery Man 20,966]

[RDCanecutter 26,452]

15 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Greyhound I don't like because of way too many stops but I took Turimex from Oak Cliff to Monterrey every couple of weeks for about 5 months and it was awesome. Amtrak is fun as well, took it from Dallas to Chicago one time and had a blast playing spades with some dude who just got out of prison in St. Louis, wild stories on that thing but a lot of fun

Everything bus-wise is better in Mexico, for sure. Me and my son took a 2nd Class Bluebird once for the hell of it from Tampico to Tuxpan, and we wound all up in the hills at stations in villages that looked like 1955, vendors hawking homemade candy and aguas frescas. My kid was maybe 11 but he handled pissing in the trough of a dusty cantina just fine.

My Amtrak card experience was when I was 21 riding all night from New York to Birmingham, playing Tonk in the club car with three other dudes and swilling lots of beer. When I was 21, I would drink beer until the room started to spin, then I'd go lie down and sleep after the movement stopped. Well, on a train, the MOVEMENT doesn't STOP, ok?

First time puking on a train, too.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Wilcox Cummingtonite said:

I can barely afford my recurring expenses each month even after cutting out quite a bit of fluff (including all vacations and eating out). Does that count as sustainable?

My wife and I make nearly 200k/year gross. Our society is fuuuucked.

Wait. Is this serious?

[tbone_ 14,128]

Serious question - does it really matter until the 4 billion people in China, India, and Africa gaf?

No takers huh?

And for the record, I like most of these ideas. Just wondering if we went to the utmost extreme and everyone in the US started living like Grizzly Adams would it even matter.

[Wilcox Cummingtonite 3,025]

8 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Wait. Is this serious?

Sir boomer, there are many Millennials in this exact same boat. 

Most educated generation of all time, we fell for the scam.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Wilcox Cummingtonite said:

Sir boomer, there are many Millennials in this exact same boat. 

Most educated generation of all time, we fell for the scam.

Lulz. How old do you think I am? Born in mid '80s.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

No takers huh?

And for the record, I like most of these ideas. Just wondering if we went to the utmost extreme and everyone in the US started living like Grizzly Adams would it even matter.

It's a good point. On a per-person basis, US outranks them like whoa. On a total basis, they contribute the most.

How much of that in China is fueled by our consumerism?

 

[Wilcox Cummingtonite 3,025]

2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Lulz. How old do you think I am? Born in mid '80s.

Based on the ignorance and incompetence found in your first response, you definitely seemed like a Boomer.

How much was your inheritance?

[tbone_ 14,128]

It's a good point. On a per-person basis, US outranks them like whoa. On a total basis, they contribute the most.
How much of that in China is fueled by our consumerism?
 

Damn. Look at Canda. Those are some co2 emitting mofos.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Wilcox Cummingtonite said:

Based on the ignorance and incompetence found in your first response, you definitely seemed like a Boomer.

How much was your inheritance?

Inheritance? Lol.

Sorry for thinking that people making $200K can still get by in America. 

[troph 24,851]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

Here is an interesting read on "Wishcycling"

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/08/recycling-wishcycling-china-plastics-zero-waste-bags-straws/

I know I'm a hypocrite, but I manage our recycling bin carefully. I sort through family inattention and toss in the garbage that which should not be recycled and it irritates the heck out of me. when we wash dishes I wash out dirty plastic. our recycle bin is full of reasonably clean material that as far as I know can be recycled.  I get if there isn't demand it gets trashed, but I don't want to ruin a batch because we put the wrong stuff in or put in rotten milk in a milk carton in the mix. I have a friend that argues with his recycle truck guy over the plastic bags you can take to HEB but can't recycle in the bin, he tells the guy it's recyclable and that they sort it at the facility. the truck driver gave up and takes his recycling, i'm 100% positive it ends up causing most of that truck run being trashed.

on the good news front we have our trash can down to two standard sized kitchen trash bags a week for a family of 4. I'm happy about that. I'd like to add composting next not sure how to do it. we would spread on our yard.  once we do that, I'm confident the planet will be saved from destruction, thank you very much.

Edited November 10, 2023 by troph

[RDCanecutter 26,452]

I chop up cardboard, blockprint things like cartoon fake money on it, then sell it for real money at art shows.

 

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair.

Edited November 10, 2023 by RDCanecutter

[The Royal We 3,072]

22 minutes ago, troph said:

I know I'm a hypocrite, but I manage our recycling bin carefully. I sort through family inattention and toss in the garbage that which should not be recycled and it irritates the heck out of me. when we wash dishes I wash out dirty plastic. our recycle bin is full of reasonably clean material that as far as I know can be recycled.  I get if there isn't demand it gets trashed, but I don't want to ruin a batch because we put the wrong stuff in or put in rotten milk in a milk carton in the mix. I have a friend that argues with his recycle truck guy over the plastic bags you can take to HEB but can't recycle in the bin, he tells the guy it's recyclable and that they sort it at the facility. the truck driver gave up and takes his recycling, i'm 100% positive it ends up causing most of that truck run being trashed.

on the good news front we have our trash can down to two standard sized kitchen trash bags a week for a family of 4. I'm happy about that. I'd like to add composting next not sure how to do it. we would spread on our yard.  once we do that, I'm confident the planet will be saved from destruction, thank you very much.

Have you seen these composting disposal systems? I need them to get a bit cheaper, but our house is on a septic system and I loathe cleaning out the drain screen that keeps all the junk from going into the septic.

 

https://sepurahome.com/products/sepura

[BabaYaga 15,301]

19 minutes ago, troph said:

I'd like to add composting next not sure how to do it.

My folks are into gardening big time.  It's taken over almost their entire yard.  They have six large, raised beds with drip lines run throughout and set on timers.

They have three composting "stations" - a little one inside.  A plastic jar about the size of a water jug with a lid for daily stuff:  fruit rinds, egg shells, etc.  Then they have a barrel outside set up on a tumbler so you have turn it.  They empty the little into the big.  Then they have a raised bed wrapped in fencing wire for larger stuff like dead plants, trimmings from the garden, etc that they turn with a shovel/pitchfork.  It's WA state go they also get a ton of precip.

 

[wild_turkey 3,166]

18 hours ago, tbone_ said:

Serious question - does it really matter until the 4 billion people in China, India, and Africa gaf?

I saw your second reply and I think this is a valid question to be asking, but it does get more into the politics of the situation, rather than the choices at the individual level.

On the one hand, the U.S. and other first-world countries have benefited tremendously from industrial and economic growth throughout the 20th century when no one was paying much attention to things like carbon emissions, clean energy, or the toxic effects of industry on our environment. And now that we do care, and we are economically in a better position to make some positive changes, we also need the entire undeveloped world to make responsible decisions, at a time when they are just getting simple luxuries like electricity and air conditioning. A coal power plant in India will do the same amount of damage as a coal plant in Texas. So I think there is a large amount of responsibility on the developed world to help these other parts of the world.

When it comes to places like China (or insert any other country that doesn't want to play ball), I think money is the ultimate motivator. Economics are currently motivating them to use the lowest cost option for electricity and other resources. We would need to shift the economics in the form of tariffs, etc. that would them motivate them to change. We may still import your plastic trinkets, but there is a 200% tariff on it due to the environmental impact of its production, which then makes it such that no one in the U.S. wants to buy those items from that particular country. That of course requires citizens in places like the U.S. and Europe to support these actions, which may be a pipe dream.

[RDCanecutter 26,452]

Where are my "Take the nice shoes to the shoe repair guy, put Shoe Goo on the sneakers" brethren?

[InkaUtexas 25,986]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

My folks are into gardening big time.  It's taken over almost their entire yard.  They have six large, raised beds with drip lines run throughout and set on timers.

They have three composting "stations" - a little one inside.  A plastic jar about the size of a water jug with a lid for daily stuff:  fruit rinds, egg shells, etc.  Then they have a barrel outside set up on a tumbler so you have turn it.  They empty the little into the big.  Then they have a raised bed wrapped in fencing wire for larger stuff like dead plants, trimmings from the garden, etc that they turn with a shovel/pitchfork.  It's WA state go they also get a ton of precip.

 

The best one I built incorporated a rabbit hutch on the side so when they shit it would run down into the main compost. The key, and I have made tons, is make sure you don't over do one type of product. 

A simple way is Hog fence, three feet tall, connect to three T Posts so it gets air on all sides. You can make it as big as you want but I would not go over a 4 foot diameter. 

@troph if you live near the lake get some of the damn water weeds everyone bitches about. Great additive with the micronutrients. 

 

[BabaYaga 15,301]

I'll add for "composting" - chickens will damn near eat anything.  Little dinosaurs.  If you want to cut down on wasted food, give it to them.  Old pumpkins, leftover turkey bones from T-day, even deboned deer shanks, they'll strip it all down.  

As a kid, g-ma had a bucket in the kitchen, any food from people's plates were for the yard-birds.  Nothing edible went into the trash.  Her garden in the back of the house was massive.  Had a larger footprint than the house itself.  Rows and rows of massive veggies.  

[wild_turkey 3,166]

I'd like to add composting next not sure how to do it. we would spread on our yard.

This is our setup:



The teal bin stays under the kitchen sink and we fill it with compostable food scraps, coffee grounds, wine corks, etc. It gets emptied into the left side of the outdoor compost every 3-4 days.

The left side also contains rubbish from the garden, dead flowers, etc. We turn it periodically and use the good stuff to put back into the garden when planting.

The right side is for browns - dead leaves, paper bags, some cardboard, etc. We occasionally mix some of it into the left side to give it some more fluff and bulk.

I am very much a novice but this is our system which I believe is working.

[PTINS 3,472]

3 hours ago, troph said:

Here is where I am gullible - I’m hopeful we can contain development to urban areas and protect the natural world ... I think that’s below a 1% chance but one can hope.

The I-35 corridor between DFW and San Antonio will have 50 Million people by the time my kids are my age. As soon as they get situated, they are buying 5-10 acre ranchettes in the Hill Country, drilling water wells, and planting grass. The number of larger ranches in the Hill Country getting sliced and diced into mini-ranches is astonishing. The OTX Camp in Bandera, building a water themed retreat 99% dependent on sub-surface water in the middle of the Hill Country, is the epitome of selfishness and ignorance.

3 hours ago, Woodrow Call said:

The answer to all of this ... is reduced use and scaling back population growth... as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline... but nature bats last... Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope... ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior...  Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.   

In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

40+ years ago, I gave a speech on the biggest issue I will face as a college graduate (Mech Engr) ... Energy supply & demand. It is worse now than it was then, primarily because of the reality of the negative consequences of simply generating the energy. I understand the concept of largely giving up hope.

Our uncontrolled population growth, that cancer, will correct itself, as some point in time. 

i'll just spend more time at the ranch. Oh, wait! Seeing as how my Avatar will only look like that again is if a tropical storm/hurricane hits Texas south of Corpus ... what little hope I have is morphing into something else.

3 hours ago, Celery Man said:

a lot of farmers ... a landscape of regulation and incentivization/etc)...  there's a lot of incentives around carbon intensity in ethanol production

Ethanol to supplement gasoline production might have made sense during and immediately after the Arab Oil Embargo. It hasn't made sense in a long ass time. Corn is for eating and drinking. Another Government subsidy that alters the natural balance between supply and demand. 

3 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

I doubt anyone on this board who is college educated can say they are in the bottom half of carbon footprint when you look at everything.

Growth in technology and innovation has mades us all more efficient (the internet, smart phones, home shopping, remote working, face time meetings, etc.), all of which consume energy. The most fun thing to do with money is spend it. I probably bring down the average carbon footprint as my ranch is managed for wildlife habitat and consumes CO2 and produces is oxygen.

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The U.S. has a tremendously outsized impact on consumption and carbon and other non-sustainable practices. 

The US "consumes" a disproportionate amount of oil on its own, but a significant portion of that is for the export market.  Absent that, we would still have an outsized impact on consumption.  When I took our Au Pair to HEB 30+ years ago, she was amazed at all the fruits and vegetables. Why do you have so many different apples?

Why do we have so much of everything? Innovation creating supply, and demand.

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Water is the big one that most people just whistle on past...once the lake refills, nobody gives a shit again until the next drought.

Water is THE resource to be fought over, worldwide.  It's scarce ... getting more expensive: we've captured all the cheap, easy water.  The next round of water is going to cost much, much more.

The good thing is that people fight over it.  And my business is representing people and entities in those fights.

 Oh, there are solutions.  Sure, desalinization is an option.  A very pricey one, all costs considered.

Getting water from where it is to where people are?  ... you don't wanna know what a pipeline project would cost 

 The first 80% of the water we need is cheap.  The next 20% is wildly expensive.  And people complain "why is MY bill going up?"  Because 1 million people moved into the area to consume the same water sources you have consumed.  We have to obtain enough water for everyone.  That additional water is expensive.

My new solar powered water well went dry in less than 2 years because the Trinity Aquifer dropped at least 50 feet in that time.  That is bothersome, but merely an inconvenience for me. Lake Travis having an island with grass and trees on it? Whoppee shit! Wait til all the new straws start sucking water out of the Edwards Aquifer.  Wait till all the hunting ranches run out of water. Anybody with surface water isn't going to let somebody else lay a pipeline or build an aqueduct to take "their" water. I won't see it, but the shit's gonna get real down the road.  Pissed off people fighting over land and water rights? I used to watch those movies with my dad.

2 hours ago, mdmost said:

 I don't get where all this shit comes from. I don't understand why we have so much trash. We recycle as much as possible ... clothing...  we just consume way too much.  I try to not use Amazon as much as possible. It's hard though as Amazon has helped usher out the mom and pop stores we used to buy these items from.  

I fear some day they're going to have to face real shortages, especially with water. So yeah, turn the water off when you brush your teeth and drink that half glass of water you just poured. 

We (2 of us) fill a ~75 gallon container with recycle every 2 weeks, and make maybe half as much trash. When our kids were school age, much different story. School age kids drive consumption like nothing else.

[HouTex 1,878]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:19 PM, wild_turkey said:

 

I watched that first YouTube clip that’s critical of EVs. I don’t know if I take the guy seriously and I don’t know his credentials or political leanings, but I think his criticisms are similar to many EV opponents.

His first big criticism is that EVs aren’t charging with clean energy and are instead using predominantly fossil fuels. I share that concern, but I don’t think that’s a flaw in EV technology at all. That’s a problem with our energy sources, which is a huge separate topic. Simply put, I think we need EVs coupled with nuclear power, or greatly expanded clean energy in its various formats.

But the issue to me is that EV technology could be a tremendous step forward if the electricity sources will follow suit. Maybe it’s worth putting the cart in front of the horse here.

The same could not be said about ICE vehicles. They are by definition burning fossil fuels and will always be burning fossil fuels, and to commit to them out of fear of change is basically signing our own death sentence. We know exactly where that road will lead.

His second concern is about sourcing the lithium and other minerals to produce the batteries. Also a valid concern, but he presents no data, which makes this merely a talking point lacking evidence. And as I mentioned above, potentially new sources for these minerals (such as the Salton Sea) will become available to help that obstacle.

 

Peter Zeihan has written several books on geopolitics.  His work is well researched and he's not simply regurgitating talking points of one team even though he may not have included citations in the video.  His book Disunited Nations is very well done and I'm about to read his latest:  The End of the World is Just the Beginning.  I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions, but I think he's right more than he is wrong.  

[BabaYaga 15,301]

1 hour ago, PTINS said:

40+ years ago, I gave a speech on the biggest issue I will face as a college graduate (Mech Engr) ... Energy supply & demand. It is worse now than it was then, primarily because of the reality of the negative consequences of simply generating the energy. I understand the concept of largely giving up hope.

Our uncontrolled population growth, that cancer, will correct itself, as some point in time. 

Thomas Carlyle, a Scottish writer and philosopher, called economics "the dismal science" in reference to Thomas Malthus, that lugubrious economist who claimed humanity was trapped in a world where population growth would always strain natural resources and bring widespread misery.

[CHIEF 5,093]

I'm lucky that my Second Trinity well is about two hundred feet from the Brazos river. It is 579 feet deep and has over 150 feet of water in it. I've always had it in the back of my mind that it could be a gold mine one day. It's good enough to bottle straight out of the pump.

CHIEF

[DalTxHornFan 3,106]

 

Halloween pumpkins are an environmental nightmare.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2023/10/31/pumpkin-disposal-cprog-orig-fj.cnn

[Guest]

22 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

Half-measures are better than zero measures.

One person firing a BB at a tank won’t do anything. The internet tells me a metal BB has a mass of about 0.35 grams and an M1 Abrams tank is about 65,000 kg. If all 332 million people in the U.S. fired a BB at the tank at the same time, it would be a collective total mass of 116,000 kg striking the 65,000 kg tank.

There’s a quote to the effect of “We don’t need a few people to do this perfectly, we need everyone to do it imperfectly.”

Meh.  Only about 40% of the people would show up, if that many.  Then half of those would fire in the opposite direction.

Tank still wins.

The notion of all Americans aligning 100% on something is more preposterous than saving the planet with cars running on  magical batteries  that are delivered  from the earth fairies because of recycling offerings.

and none of this even factoring in the vast majority of the world's population who pretty much contribute to put more armor on the tank while we fire our bb guns.

This thread is basically a bunch of folks patting themselves on the back for drinking a diet coke while eating 7k calories a day.  "See.  We cut back a little..."   I'm just saying people aren't serious about making a real difference.  Then some of them even want to make me drink diet coke( use a 3 handed gas can) to support their futile struggle.  It's laughably insane.

Edited November 11, 2023 by slorch

[Brew 3,049]

29 minutes ago, slorch said:

Meh.  Only about 40% of the people would show up, if that many.  Then half of those would fire in the opposite direction.

Tank still wins.

The notion of all Americans aligning 100% on something is more preposterous than saving the planet with cars running on  magical batteries  that are delivered  from the earth fairies because of recycling offerings.

and none of this even factoring in the vast majority of the world's population who pretty much contribute to put more armor on the tank while we fire our bb guns.

This thread is basically a bunch of folks patting themselves on the back for drinking a diet coke while eating 7k calories a day.  "See.  We cut back a little..."   I'm just saying people aren't serious about making a real difference.  Then some of them even want to make me drink diet coke( use a 3 handed gas can) to support their futile struggle.  It's laughably insane.

The “why bother” crowd is always interesting in these discussions. Of course we’re all doomed, but incremental improvement/change still makes some measure of difference. It’s too late to turn the faucet off, but I’m not sure that means that everyone should just say fuck it. There is some aspect of virtue signaling involved in there as well, but that still requires some amount of positive movement.

[Brisketexan 105,154]

The “why bother” crowd is always interesting in these discussions. Of course we’re all doomed, but incremental improvement/change still makes some measure of difference. It’s too late to turn the faucet off, but I’m not sure that means that everyone should just say fuck it. There is some aspect of virtue signaling involved in there as well, but that still requires some amount of positive movement.

There’s an importance in continuing to make it a goal and an ongoing practice of doing so. It creates momentum and interest that will eventually drive the breakthroughs that WILL make a massive difference.
Metaphorically, incremental steps mean you’re moving. Eventually, those steps get you to a place where you can hop in a vehicle and really cover some ground. We’ve seen many great leaps forward in the past. We need to reach some new ones.

[Not that Bob 738]

I don't believe any post said that any technique would solve the problem 100%. It is obvious that it will be incremental, and no one can know if it is too late regardless of the efforts. However, efforts...moving forward..."doing better" is what sets us apart from the apes. To be human is to try to move forward. Fail. Get up and dust off. Try again. You know, "The Man in the Arena". 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Not that Bob

[troph 24,851]

23 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

The best one I built incorporated a rabbit hutch on the side so when they shit it would run down into the main compost. The key, and I have made tons, is make sure you don't over do one type of product. 

A simple way is Hog fence, three feet tall, connect to three T Posts so it gets air on all sides. You can make it as big as you want but I would not go over a 4 foot diameter. 

@troph if you live near the lake get some of the damn water weeds everyone bitches about. Great additive with the micronutrients. 

 

Not following you on the water weeds? 

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

21 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Thomas Carlyle, a Scottish writer and philosopher, called economics "the dismal science" in reference to Thomas Malthus, that lugubrious economist who claimed humanity was trapped in a world where population growth would always strain natural resources and bring widespread misery.

Tommy C

[High Plains Drifter 11,050]

On 11/9/2023 at 2:37 PM, Frank Drebin said:

I piss in the backyard to save water.  I feel like I'm doing my part.

 

i also piss in the backyard. But not to save water, rather because it is awesome, true freedom.

 

Pissing outside on a cold winter night while looking up at the stars is sublime.

 

[troph 24,851]

18 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

i also piss in the backyard. But not to save water, rather because it is awesome, true freedom.

 

Pissing outside on a cold winter night while looking up at the stars is sublime.

 

User name etcetera etcetera

[Armybrat 40,851]

This is the way to go….

 

[InkaUtexas 25,986]

23 hours ago, troph said:

Not following you on the water weeds? 

Hydrilla. Or Hyacinth if you can find it. 

[troph 24,851]

18 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Hydrilla. Or Hyacinth if you can find it. 

Oh gotcha - I’m trying to further reduce trash though so it’s food scraps. 

[berlinerbaer 678]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:41 AM, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question for anyone that knows anything about batteries... why don't they last forever? What's the process whereby a battery holds less of a charge over time? Are they able to be renewed?

When a battery is charged or discharged, ions such as Li+ need to flow through the battery from one electrode to the other to counterbalance each electron that flows through the circuit. This is a significant amount of mass transfer that needs to be fully reversible, which is a huge ask. Basically during use, one electrode is corroding away and new material is depositing at the other end. In order for this to be reversible, the ions have to be dislodged from their new location and find their way back to where they were before. Each atom takes up space, and the materials need to accommodate atoms moving in and out repeatedly. An ideal electrode works like a sponge soaking up ions during one direction of operation and releasing them in the other. That is a huge ask.

Each electrode has a preferred state, either with or w/o ions, and will be less stable in the other state. During the less stable phase, the material will be prone to irreversible changes that reduce the overall capacity to accept ions. Maybe the material will change its bonding and lose its flexibility to accommodate the volume changes of ions moving in and out. Other times, it will find something else to react with. Most often, the metal oxide cathode is the weak point and responsible for the lifetime of most rechargeable batteries.

 

[berlinerbaer 678]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:54 AM, PTINS said:

Global Warming:  8 billion people at 98.6 °F, approximately 30 ° warmer than the ambient temperature, generate a lot of heat, which warms the atmosphere. If everybody would simply hold their breath for 4 minutes, the problem would go away.

On 11/10/2023 at 9:06 AM, PTINS said:

We eat organic compounds, carbo-hydrates, yet scorn the use of oil and gas, hydro-carbons. Different slice of the same pie.

Quote

Society in General: Entropy is a scientific concept that matter and energy in the universe will degrade to an ultimate state of inert disorder.   I believe that is where we are heading.

 

[ImissWallyPryor 9,046]

One (of several) problems I see with wind turbines is that once they wear out in 25-30 years, the operators will declare bankruptcy unless they receive free federal money to replace/refurbish them.

I won’t take the sustainability movement seriously until they embrace new nuclear power technologies. And I’m a guy who has recycled seriously for 35 years, composts everything I can, practices “almost” 100% organic lawn care and gardening, and only bathes weekly. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9,046]

15 hours ago, Armybrat said:

This is the way to go….

 

That kid is seriously fucked up. 

[Bevo&Pevo 5,205]

23 hours ago, Armybrat said:

This is the way to go….

 

I'm more of a tropics kinda guy.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

8 hours ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

and only bathes weekly. 

God.  Damn.  Hippies.

[52-80 19,162]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:57 PM, Woodrow Call said:

I'm not a fan of electric vehicles for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. The mining, but also the human cost. Much of the labor is supplied by poor workers and they're exposed to a number of harmful things in the production. Obviously, fossil fuel is a huge issue, but every can of coke and every pill we consume is dependent upon fossil fuels. It's not going away. 

The answer to all of this, if it's an answer, is reduced use and scaling back population growth. The population is sustained by industrial agriculture (another huge problem), so as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline. None of us want mass starvation and death, but nature bats last. We can either control it on our own, or Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope. Addressing our ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior, and in the United States, this seems highly unlikely. Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.  It also will require us to address growth capitalism, a system that is by its very nature unsustainable. You can't have unlimited growth in a closed system. In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

I find this pessimism a bit lost and deeply anti-human. 

All cars use a shit load of metals, plastics, and rubber, which has to be mined or harvested. The *marginal difference* with electric car is the battery, which is lithium, nickel, graphite.  Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits.  If you are buying a new car today, buying an electric car over a traditional car is a *net good* decision.

Homo sapiens -- nay, all *hominids* -- is a speck of dirt on the history of the Earth.  We are neither owed anything by it, nor owe anything to it.  For the microsecond on the cosmic scale that we as individuals exist on this earth, we only have to optimize our time on it. Is that a "selfish" motivation? Sure is. So are 99.99% of decisions we've ever made across any other dimension in life. I'm not governing my life based on what might happen to this round ball in 3 million years.

I want the best life for me and for my family. I eat red meat, because it is delicious. I compost and recycle, because it makes *me* feel good, at a cost of *nothing*. I'm not wantonly wasteful, because it's not satisfying. But I'll splurge on my kids, if satisfies them.

And we should want to have kids, because it's the best and safest time in human history to be alive. They'll benefit from the accumulated knowledge and technological advancement from 50,000 years of scribbling graffiti on cavewalls. 

If you -- relatively privileged people from the privileged parts of the world -- dont want to have kids, it's not going to matter.  People from the relatively laggard parts of the world are going to have them *anyway.*  Generation-for-generation, they'll just live a slightly worse life than your kids might have. And they'll steer the future in a relatively worse direction than your kids might.  (this is merely broad level extrapolation).

Either way, they can all be fed. Surely you've heard, access to food has not been a natural problem of production - its been an 'artificial' problem of distribution. Take the look at global food yield, and show me what 'effects of climate change' its been experiencing.  Also note the relative growth of yield vs population.

**

TLDR civilization has been doing good, actually. The world is not ending soon. You dont have to believe in what Swedish teenagers say and do things because Greta told you to. You can do good things, for the sake of feeling good.

I choose not to be doomer-pilled. You can too.

[Woodrow Call 494]

26 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I find this pessimism a bit lost and deeply anti-human. 

All cars use a shit load of metals, plastics, and rubber, which has to be mined or harvested. The *marginal difference* with electric car is the battery, which is lithium, nickel, graphite.  Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits.  If you are buying a new car today, buying an electric car over a traditional car is a *net good* decision.

Homo sapiens -- nay, all *hominids* -- is a speck of dirt on the history of the Earth.  We are neither owed anything by it, nor owe anything to it.  For the microsecond on the cosmic scale that we as individuals exist on this earth, we only have to optimize our time on it. Is that a "selfish" motivation? Sure is. So are 99.99% of decisions we've ever made across any other dimension in life. I'm not governing my life based on what might happen to this round ball in 3 million years.

I want the best life for me and for my family. I eat red meat, because it is delicious. I compost and recycle, because it makes *me* feel good, at a cost of *nothing*. I'm not wantonly wasteful, because it's not satisfying. But I'll splurge on my kids, if satisfies them.

And we should want to have kids, because it's the best and safest time in human history to be alive. They'll benefit from the accumulated knowledge and technological advancement from 50,000 years of scribbling graffiti on cavewalls. 

If you -- relatively privileged people from the privileged parts of the world -- dont want to have kids, it's not going to matter.  People from the relatively laggard parts of the world are going to have them *anyway.*  Generation-for-generation, they'll just live a slightly worse life than your kids might have. And they'll steer the future in a relatively worse direction than your kids might.  (this is merely broad level extrapolation).

Either way, they can all be fed. Surely you've heard, access to food has not been a natural problem of production - its been an 'artificial' problem of distribution. Take the look at global food yield, and show me what 'effects of climate change' its been experiencing.  Also note the relative growth of yield vs population.

**

TLDR civilization has been doing good, actually. The world is not ending soon. You dont have to believe in what Swedish teenagers say and do things because Greta told you to. You can do good things, for the sake of feeling good.

I choose not to be doomer-pilled. You can too.

I never said I was against having children. I have children and grandchildren; however, all populations, human or otherwise, have limits in closed systems. But it is a fact that industrial agriculture has made population growth possible. I'm not saying I'm against it or for it. I'm only stating a fact, and it is also a fact that the more humans you have the more consumption you'll have.  'Twas ever thus. 

And no, we don't "owe" the earth anything, but it makes good sense to not poop in ones own nest. 

With respect to your statement, "Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits," you might also want to consider this. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Woodrow Call

[Armybrat 40,851]

Whatever happened with the development of hydrogen powered cars?

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

7 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Whatever happened with the development of hydrogen powered cars?

It's coming, but the tech is way behind EV tech.  Toyota was banking on hydrogen fuel cells over EVs, but they saw they were going to be left behind the EVs if they didn't go that route for at least a while.

[52-80 19,162]

12 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

I never said I was against having children. I have children and grandchildren; however, all populations, human or otherwise, have limits in closed systems. But it is a fact that industrial agriculture has made population growth possible. I'm not saying I'm against it or for it. I'm only stating a fact, and it is also a fact that the more humans you have the more consumption you'll have.  'Twas ever thus. 

And no, we don't "owe" the earth anything, but it makes good sense to not poop in ones own nest. 

With respect to your statement, "Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits," you might also want to consider this. 

You might not be "against" having children, and I believe you have and love your N-2 offsprings, but the general sentiment of "humans = bad" is common amongst the climate doomer community, and active promotion of population reduction is their belief.  It is also a plain fact, and also in that graphic, that wealthier and more educated slices of the population have far fewer children than the rest. That's not an optimal situation, broadly speaking.. *insert Mike Judge reference here*.

 

4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Whatever happened with the development of hydrogen powered cars?

Compressing gas at high pressures and transporting it from station to station seems way less good than delivering electricity.  Which we already do pretty much everywhere.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

25 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Compressing gas at high pressures and transporting it from station to station seems way less good than delivering electricity.  Which we already do pretty much everywhere.

The tech I've seen is based on electrolysis of H2O.

[Biff Tannen 45,691]

1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

While it's your right to behave and act in whatever manner you want within legal guardrails, there are a lot of people who are not so materially and self-centered in their focus and impetus for their actions in this life. Lots of folks have belief systems that fall somewhere on the spectrum that humans, the miraculous form made from specs of dust as you said, are and should be good stewards of the world we inhibit. That extends to being good stewards of the environs we live to the holistic environment-- animals, oceans, and curtailing the negative impacts on climate where that can be reasonably controlled, etc. etc. That means sometimes sacrificing the optimal gain for the selfish purposes of humans, especially in the short-term.

Well said.  These two schools of thought (yours vs 52-80s) are much like John Muir vs Gifford Pinchot in terms of conservation.

Muir believed in conservation of nature as a temple or spiritual vessel for humans, whereas Pinchot believed in using resources in a "responsible" way (I wouldn't say sustainable) for the people who live here NOW.

I fall more to the Muir side of the spectrum, but Pinchot has some decent points as well.