Game of Thrones Season 8 (NO BOOKSPOILERS) thread

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

I guess I don't mind the "snap" into madness.  We live in a world where someone going mad isn't spelled out on a roadmap.  It's only in hindsight can you even identify a few red flags.  I guess I'd prefer a few more episodes displaying her dissention into madness, but I don't think it's a requirement.  She lost her dragon (kid to her), everyone is conspiring to betray her, she has no one in the world to trust, and the person she loves is the reason why.  Less has pushed people over the edge.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

Yeah, I was glad Jaimie didn't have some sort of redemption story.  He was a horrible person who got what he deserved.

All the Lannisters are kind of victims of their own environment that produces awful people.  

I’m glad Tyrion is the last Lannister standing though because he resisted his awful family the most. 

[henrygandorf 29194]

4 minutes ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

Does every villain need a satisfying death.  I just counted 6 deserving and satisfying desks.  Why does everyone have to have one?  And to me it was poetic, she died in the arms of her love, and it was those two that started this shit.

need one?  i guess not.  but does it help the show be more entertaining?  i think it does.  especially considering every big baddie has had one, and nobody enjoyed doing her evil like cersei.  jaime had one of the great arcs of this show, and a fascinating character study for 8 seasons.  now they get a "poetic" death?

also this is a two-part letdown (depending obviously on how they handle next week).

my prediction was that euron would die this week, and cersei next week.  if she's truly dead, then we get one episode to hash out jon vs dany, which is a brand new rivalry (yeah, sansa never trusted her, blah blah whatever).  it's new, and i don't really care about it like i did "who would kill cersei."

also, i mentioned it earlier, but is the iron throne still even intact?  if this show really doesn't end with someone sitting on it, then what was the point?

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

18 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I want more daring shows like GoT in the future, not less.

are we going to have to fetch stannis again?

[CurlyDumps 4476]

45 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Right, she'd rather kill herself and her child than be taken captive by Stannis. But in last night's episode she was whimpering. Not consistent with her character at all.  

Though I do want to apologize to you, Barry McCokiner (love that handle/reference BTW), for my assumption that Jaime was not actually going back to Cersei's side after Episode 4. I had more faith in the writers than I should have. 

 

She was alone with Jaime and facing imminent death.  Being reduced to a scared, whimpering coward seems pretty consistent with her character IMO.  You’re going overboard with this criticism.

[PilotsError 2311]

Subversion!

[Pig Bellmont 8719]

Point of order. Tyrion shot his dad on the shitter. Not every villain goes out like Walder Frey. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

28 minutes ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

Does every villain need a satisfying death.  I just counted 6 deserving and satisfying desks.  Why does everyone have to have one?  And to me it was poetic, she died in the arms of her love, and it was those two that started this shit.

Well, the proposition that I was responding to was that the writers were in a no-win situation because fans would have loudly complained if Cersei had died a just death at the hands of one of the heroes.   And I don't think that is true, because virtually every other villain died in such a way with a very positive overall fan response.

Is such a death necessary?   No.  The show goes on with Cersei dying in a poetic manner in the arms of her love, as you say.   But because Cersei is a horrible murderous villain in a creepy incestuous relationship, I didn't find her poetic death in the arms of her love to be emotionally impactful.  When expectations are subverted by the horrible death of a good person, we are still emotionally affected in a different way than we expected.   The reverse is true when a bad character unfairly survives, and we've had plenty of that.   A sweet death for a murderous tyrant?  Kind of emotionally neutral and confusing.  And a real wasted opportunity, because we are watching shows for the heightened drama it provides over real life. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[smuggs 9353]

Her manner of death didn't bother me so much as the fact that Cersei has had only a handful of unmemorable appearances this season. Her most lengthy screen time has come in a few scenes of her enduring the ridiculous Pepé Le Pew advances of that dumbass throwaway Euron Greyjoy.

 

 

[henrygandorf 29194]

6 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Point of order. Tyrion shot his dad on the shitter. Not every villain goes out like Walder Frey. 

that was very satisfying for the viewer, as tyrion was a fan favorite.

this is the only instance of a major character that i can recall - good or bad - going out like an extra. 

[henrygandorf 29194]

8 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

She was alone with Jaime and facing imminent death.  Being reduced to a scared, whimpering coward seems pretty consistent with her character IMO.  You’re going overboard with this criticism.

but this isn't life, this is a tv show.  as viewers, we don't just want to make sure the bad guys are dead, we want to see the good guys kill the bad guys.

[henrygandorf 29194]

7 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Well, the proposition that I was responding to was that the writers were in a no-win situation because fans would have loudly complained if Cersei had died a just death at the hands of one of the heroes.   And I don't think that is true, because virtually every other villain died in such a way with a very positive overall fan response.

Is such a death necessary?   No.  The show goes on with Cersei dying poetically manner in the arms of her love, as you say.   But because Cersei is a horrible murderous villain in a creepy incestuous relationship, I didn't find her poetic death in the arms of her love to be emotionally impactful.  When expectations are subverted by the horrible death of a good person, we are still emotionally affected in a different way than we expected.   The reverse is true when a bad character unfairly survives, and we've had plenty of that.   A sweet death for a murderous tyrant?  Kind of emotionally neutral and confusing.  And a real wasted opportunity, because we are watching shows for the heightened drama it provides over real life. 

agreed.  with whole post and part i bolded.

there's giving a character an appropriate death, a horrifying death, a poetic death - it doesn't matter which they decide.  however, the death should be one that provides the legacy for the game of thrones television show that many of us were sure would be amazing after the first 3-4 seasons.

to me, this last season (or two) will leave a bad taste in people's mouths that will outweigh the good the show did, a lot like "lost" did for some.

the fact that so many here are willing to accept the death because it's some ultimate grrm "twist" that needs to be rationalized and justified and explained or excused is ridiculous and lazy.  twists are played on characters for the entertainment of the viewer.  twists are not pranks or trolls played on the viewer for the entertainment of the showrunners.  jesus.

[wild_turkey 3168]

5 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Danny turning into the Mad Queen.  Who didn't see that coming...

At this point, every possible outcome has been speculated about by fans for years. No matter what they write, some people would say "Who didn't see that coming..."

Furthermore, we simultaneously have people saying Dany's flip was predictable, while others are saying it happened without any warning or explanation. It's hard to be both.

I personally think it has been predictable and I'm okay with that. I think there has been plenty of foreshadowing to this moment throughout the entire series. To me, this is not an example of bad writing by D&D - they are continuing what GRRM set up.

Maybe a fair criticism is that it could've been fleshed out a little bit more before she finally snapped, but I'm not even sure I agree with that. We've seen her command complete fealty throughout the series and we've seen her punish those who did not give her the respect she felt she deserved. We've seen her burn people (Tarley's, etc.) when her advisers pleaded with her to spare their lives. We've seen her cast Jorah aside when he probably deserved another chance. In episode 4 of this season, we saw her turn bitter when Jon was getting credit for the battle at Winterfell but no one was praising her.  She knows the Stark girls don't like her and she suspects they are turning Jon against her. In this very episode, she is rejected by Jon, and she feels betrayed by Jon/Varys/Tyrion. Missandei is now dead. The only person she has left is Grey Worm. Since arriving in Westeros, she is realizing that she is an outsider and the people of Westeros have no love for her. She told Jon she will rule by fear if that is the case. The setup has all been there.

People point out that she has never burned completely innocent people to death. That may be the case, but Dany is now in an extremely intense war and quite frankly, that causes people to snap. That's not a Game of Thrones thing or lazy writing, that happens in real life. She has basically won the war but she is looking around at King's Landing and realizing none of those people will love her or respect her and she makes the decision to burn them all and start from scratch. There's likely a part of her that does not view the commoners as innocent, but rather they are all part of a huge culture of people that killed her family. Her mind is justifying that destruction, even though we as viewers disagree.

[CurlyDumps 4476]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

but this isn't life, this is a tv show.  as viewers, we don't just want to make sure the bad guys are dead, we want to see the good guys kill the bad guys.

 I was talking about her emotional state in that scene, and whether or not it was consistent with her character.  Not about how she died.

[Goredho 17412]

Shrugs, I thought Cersei’s death was very fitting. That her power through fear was lost the instant people had someone to fear more.  The moment when she realized she want going to win and the implications of that (win or die) was perfectly good, imo.

Churchill didn’t get to kill Hitler ripping out his esophagus Road House style.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

4 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

agreed.  with whole post and part i bolded.

there's giving a character an appropriate death, a horrifying death, a poetic death - it doesn't matter which they decide.  however, the death should be one that provides the legacy for the game of thrones television show that many of us were sure would be amazing after the first 3-4 seasons.

to me, this last season (or two) will leave a bad taste in people's mouths that will outweigh the good the show did, a lot like "lost" did for some.

the fact that so many here are willing to accept the death because it's some ultimate grrm "twist" that needs to be rationalized and justified and explained or excused is ridiculous and lazy.  twists are played on characters for the entertainment of the viewer.  twists are not pranks or trolls played on the viewer for the entertainment of the showrunners.  jesus.

i don't think it was a twist or a prank or lazy.  it was an attempt at a metaphor.   she / king's landing.  it all collapses together.

[Goo Punch 4275]

5 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Yeah, I have a feeling they're going for something like this even though it doesn't really make sense. Regardless of whether Jon is the true heir or half Targ, Dany is Drogon's mom. Seems like that should trump the other factors, but I'm sure D&D have written a scene that doesn't add up and we'll be forced to accept it anyways.

"Drogon has forgotten that Dany is his mom."

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

I don’t see any way around Jon killing Dany at this point.  No one in this story has faced more internal conflict than Jon Snow.  

 Interesting dynamic of Jaime as the Kingslayer who was a pariah stained for life with that name because he prevented the mad king from burning down King’s Landing by stabbing him in the back vs Jon Snow who didn’t betray the Queen and allowed her to torch the capital despite being given the opportunity stop her by Varys. 

Who is to say which one is better than the other? 

[Jive Turkey 12626]

I wish Varys would have called Dany out before his execution. Told everybody there that he knows the truth. Jon is the true heir. That he saw in Dany what he saw in Aerys and how she is no different. Just let her have it. 

Varys knew last season.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Jive Turkey

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

10 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

I wish Varys would have called Dany out before his execution. Told everybody there that he knows the truth. Jon is the true heir. That he saw in Dany what he saw in Aerys and how she is no different. Just let her have it. 

Varys knew last season.

 

Do you really think that would have made any difference?

[BabaYaga 15302]

21 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

At this point, every possible outcome has been speculated about by fans for years. No matter what they write, some people would say "Who didn't see that coming..."

Furthermore, we simultaneously have people saying Dany's flip was predictable, while others are saying it happened without any warning or explanation. It's hard to be both.

I personally think it has been predictable and I'm okay with that. I think there has been plenty of foreshadowing to this moment throughout the entire series. To me, this is not an example of bad writing by D&D - they are continuing what GRRM set up.

Maybe a fair criticism is that it could've been fleshed out a little bit more before she finally snapped, but I'm not even sure I agree with that. We've seen her command complete fealty throughout the series and we've seen her punish those who did not give her the respect she felt she deserved. We've seen her burn people (Tarley's, etc.) when her advisers pleaded with her to spare their lives. We've seen her cast Jorah aside when he probably deserved another chance. In episode 4 of this season, we saw her turn bitter when Jon was getting credit for the battle at Winterfell but no one was praising her.  She knows the Stark girls don't like her and she suspects they are turning Jon against her. In this very episode, she is rejected by Jon, and she feels betrayed by Jon/Varys/Tyrion. Missandei is now dead. The only person she has left is Grey Worm. Since arriving in Westeros, she is realizing that she is an outsider and the people of Westeros have no love for her. She told Jon she will rule by fear if that is the case. The setup has all been there.

People point out that she has never burned completely innocent people to death. That may be the case, but Dany is now in an extremely intense war and quite frankly, that causes people to snap. That's not a Game of Thrones thing or lazy writing, that happens in real life. She has basically won the war but she is looking around at King's Landing and realizing none of those people will love her or respect her and she makes the decision to burn them all and start from scratch. There's likely a part of her that does not view the commoners as innocent, but rather they are all part of a huge culture of people that killed her family. Her mind is justifying that destruction, even though we as viewers disagree.

It's not that "she's crazy/enraged" - we all saw that coming.  It's how we got down this path that everyone is taking umbrage with.  I was getting flashbacks of this hot mess:

 

Fear it is......

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Going to be Jon or Arya.  Probably Jon.  Maybe Arya merks Grey Worm. 

[Jive Turkey 12626]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Do you really think that would have made any difference?

Not to Varys.  He was a goner.  But Greyworm was there.  He doesn't know the truth.  Maybe he doesn't care, but he has been fighting for a woman whose claim that she is the rightful heir is based on a lie.  And somebody needs to tell Dany that, oh yeah, you're just like your crazy old man, as much as you think you're not.

Also, what was the significance of Varys taking off his rings before his death?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Jive Turkey said:

Also, what was the significance of Varys taking off his rings before his death?

Probably for someone to find them. 

[Nivek 16946]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

I think that was just a stay-strong farewell knowing she was going to die...but was too idiotic to realize Cersie was standing right flipping next to her so grab her ass and swan dive together!

 

AVENGE ME! would be the better picture (dad in death camp)

[Nivek 16946]

1 hour ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

Does every villain need a satisfying death.  I just counted 6 deserving and satisfying desks.  Why does everyone have to have one?  And to me it was poetic, she died in the arms of her love, and it was those two that started this shit.

I actually prefer that it was unsung.  Not some glorious death at the hands of her enemies or roasting by a dragon.   

[BabaYaga 15302]

2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I actually prefer that it was unsung.  Not some glorious death at the hands of her enemies or roasting by a dragon.   

Normally I'd agree - but since we've been choking down crappy writing, mountains of cliche metaphors, and disjointed story lines for the last 2 seasons, I want to see that bitch melt.

[Theo Huxtable 48]

I guess I'm the only one who didn't/doesn't think its a sure thing that Jamie and Cersei died in that scene? I mean, it's pretty damn likely, but I thought the point of the ceiling collapsing in front of the camera was to leave it a little ambiguous, even if unlikely.

[Buzzrock 14933]

I don’t see any way around Jon killing Dany at this point.  No one in this story has faced more internal conflict than Jon Snow.  
 Interesting dynamic of Jaime as the Kingslayer who was a pariah stained for life with that name because he prevented the mad king from burning down King’s Landing by stabbing him in the back vs Jon Snow who didn’t betray the Queen and allowed her to torch the capital despite being given the opportunity stop her by Varys. 
Who is to say which one is better than the other? 

Yeah that’s a real toss up, those two.

[RomaVicta 29945]

42 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

I wish Varys would have called Dany out before his execution. Told everybody there that he knows the truth. Jon is the true heir. That he saw in Dany what he saw in Aerys and how she is no different. Just let her have it. 

He was probably afraid that if he did that, Dany might have the dragon burn him to death.

[TriStone 1724]

11 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I actually prefer that it was unsung.  Not some glorious death at the hands of her enemies or roasting by a dragon.   

To die unsung would really bring her down.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Yeah that’s a real toss up, those two.

 

The thousands dead in King’s Landing disagree with this assessment 

[MAUFRAIS 6630]

Probably for someone to find them. 

Reminded me of pacinos last scene in Donnie brasco.

[BluTechsan 393]

If the lopsided victory was so surprising to everyone, why did Tyrion spend two episodes begging Dany not to do it?

He was absolutely convinced that she, and she alone, was the only thing that could prevent the burning/destruction of King's Landing.

[Irish Wrist Watch 1393]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

A night attack on the fleet after it leaves Dragonstone would have been visually sensational and actually make sense.

Dany's rage is not hard for me to swallow. Besieged cities that do not capitulate have often been looted and put to the sword as punishment. The people who swarmed into the Red Keep arguably had a choice about what to do. They could have fled the city.

Dany learns that Westeros is not a shining prize. It's a festering pustule of betrayal and ambition. She saves Westeros from the dead and she gets none of the love she got for freeing the slaves in the East. Gentle Messeindre articulates this when she says dracarys. This place isn't worth saving.

Dany had it better and was better loved in the East which is near to Vallerya. I wonder if she will return there and leave someone else to rule in Westeros. 

Who knows?

I too was wondering why she didn't attack at night. I think budget guys said do it all in one day. The writers said we don't give a fuck. But a night attack on the fleet and maybe the wall Scorpions...

You could still have the taking of the city on the next day. That would give Cersei an entire night to realize how desperate her situation was. Jaime could have arrived to complicate things. Having him and Neuron duke it out without Cersei there to watch was another let down. Budgets... actor scheduling.. dying series... disappearing writers. Real tough to hold it all together.

[Enchubben 5510]

How about Gregor taking a knife through the eye and out the other side of his skull not being enough to kill him. I get that I guess he is some sort of zombie now or whatever, but even the Walking Dead kills zombies with a sword through the head.

[UTEX90 589]

39 minutes ago, Theo Huxtable said:

I guess I'm the only one who didn't/doesn't think its a sure thing that Jamie and Cersei died in that scene? I mean, it's pretty damn likely, but I thought the point of the ceiling collapsing in front of the camera was to leave it a little ambiguous, even if unlikely.

As much as Cersei's death was unfulfilling, (and I am not saying for sure they aren't) but if they are not dead this season does indeed suck ass.

Edited May 13, 2019 by UTEX90

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

The arc of Jaime really comes into focus after this episode.  Jaime wasn’t corrupted when he killed the Mad King.  He could have easily taken the throne for himself at that moment in time, the same with Ned Stark who turned it down when he walked in on Jaime sitting there with the dead king.  

However, the rise of Cersei was allowed to happen because Jaime was compromised by her.  He couldn’t turn on her no matter all the evil and horrible shit she did.  All the bad deeds of Jaime can be traced back to his love and loyalty to Cersei and it destroyed him in the end.  

A cautionary tale for other good men that put the pussy on the pedestal to their own demise (cough Jon Snow/Tyrion/Greyworm/Davos).

Edited May 13, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Goo Punch 4275]

3 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

How about Gregor taking a knife through the eye and out the other side of his skull not being enough to kill him. I get that I guess he is some sort of zombie now or whatever, but even the Walking Dead kills zombies with a sword through the head.

yeah that was incredibly stupid. 

[Augustus 3061]

5 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

No one is surprised about the heel turn. It didn't feel like some shocking twist. What we're saying is it wasn't earned through character development or storyline. 

 

Have to agree here.

Just recently, Dany had volunteered to call a truce with Cersei so she could risk her armies, her dragons, and her life by joining with the north to fight the NK.  It was definitely in character for Cersei to crawfish on her agreement to fight alongside them, but it was also IN character for Dany to choose the high road here, even if there was a large measure of self interest involved--namely the preservation of the land she wanted to conquer.  Despite that, they still made it clear she was motivated to a large part by "doing the right thing" and her love for Jon.  Nobody expressed any shock or disbelief that she'd put everything on hold for a super long-shot conflict with the army of the dead.

And then, the following day, she feels a little disrespected in Winterfell and turns on a dime to begin roasting countless thousands of innocent people--including who knows how many of her OWN warriors--over and above the objections of her closest advisers, despite the fact that her war was won and she'd be a liberating hero to much of Westeros. 

I agree she's had moments of power-hungry, near despotism.  But this was so abrupt and contrary to her recent behavior that it felt like nonsense.

[deech 2291]

3 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

I know this was discussed a little bit above, but what was the point, narratively, of Bron's small storyline this year?  Cersei is dead now, and so is Jaime, so the bounty is meaningless, right?  Why even include it in this season?  Misdirection or incompetence?  

Bronn kills Tyrion when Dany gives Highgarden to someone else and ending the Lannister reign by not paying their debt.

[4thgenhorn 38]

I think Danys flipping was really driven by the loss of her Dragon right before. She thinks of them as her children after all. They could have done more to build pressure on the turn, but then maybe not a surprise?

 

I enjoyed the episode overall. Sure they could have done more,  it they are really wrapping it up quick now. 

 

Only one episode left for Sansa to show her Tatas. Fingers crossed. 

[irishtexan 11522]

 

[Hank Kingsley 20991]

Bronn shows up to Winterfell on Cersei's orders to kill Tyrion and Jaime. 

Jaime: God, I love her. I must return to her at once. 

Tyrion: I now trust Cersei will do the right thing. Jaime, I have a plan for you and Cersei to escape and you will get married on top of a mountain. And there's going to be flute's playing, and trombones, and flowers, and garlands of fresh herbs, and we will dance til the sun rises. And your children will form a family band. And they will tour the countryside and Bronn won't be invited. 

 

 

 

[BabaYaga 15302]

19 minutes ago, BluTechsan said:

If the lopsided victory was so surprising to everyone, why did Tyrion spend two episodes begging Dany not to do it?

He was absolutely convinced that she, and she alone, was the only thing that could prevent the burning/destruction of King's Landing.

Secret talk about strategery. 

Hey Danny!  This time.  Dodge them.  We good?  OK, go burn some shit

[BradInATX 9208]

that was very satisfying for the viewer, as tyrion was a fan favorite.
this is the only instance of a major character that i can recall - good or bad - going out like an extra. 

Stannis

[Irish Wrist Watch 1393]

So what happens next?

Arya took off at a gallop. That could only mean one thing - she's got to get to Winterfell to bring her sister back into the series climax. Normally, using GOT time, that would take a couple of hours, but in the first few minutes of episode 6, she'll find Sansa already well on her way with guess what, another army.

The Mountain gets up, dusts himself off, pulls the knife from his head and goes out for a beer.

Jon and Tyrion whine to each other about their disappointment in the new Queen. What to do about it.

Now Dany confronts Tyrion about letting Jaime go. I warned you, asshole. But does someone cut her throat before she can kill him. I'm starting to think the Warg is the answer. Why the fuck else would they have kept fucking Bran alive for so fucking long? A John Lennon crush by one of the producers?

That said, the set up for whatever sequel would be best served if Jon becomes the Queenslayer, a man with a past as he wanders off into the forest to explore strange new worlds etc.

Bronn's got to show up and do something, but what's left? Maybe he's the one who saves Tyrion? I think he ends up redeemed, so to speak.

No Worm goes down, but don't know how.

The big question: Does Drogon survive? Yeah. Maybe we'll find out he's a she... and has some eggs!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Arya is the biggest wildcard.  She could be riding to Storm’s End to make sweet love to Gendry.  Or she could be going to Winterfell.  Or she could be going after Dany. 

[Upgrayedd 5815]

This is going to end with Ned waking up in his bed and realizing it was all a dream.

[utee94 15835]

I think she's going after Dany.  Whether you liked watching her stumble around the ruins of King's Landing for a half an hour or not, it was pretty obvious that she was touched by the plight of the innocent townspeople and became more enraged with the needless destruction every moment.  And she knows that exactly one person is responsible for all of that needless destruction.

Dany, you just made the list.