Game of Thrones Season 8 (NO BOOKSPOILERS) thread

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

Varys was trying to poison Dany, a risk he believed was worth it. The guards must have caught the girl and thus Varys. Right? He wasn’t sacrificing himself, he got caught trying to poison her food.

🙄

[immortal13 4059]

20 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Furthermore, the fact that Varys is the most least likely person in Westeros to sacrifice himself for anyone makes it that much more remarkable. 

Moreover, if Varys didn’t want to sacrifice himself, does anyone believe he couldn’t disappear? 

For sure

[MoJames 8244]

imgur

[pops 7002]

Jon and dany are barely taller than dinklage. It's a fucking munchkin village up in there. 

That fucking dragon might be slightly larger than an African swallow. Unladen. 

[52-80 19162]

hugo lipschitz should probably stick to the CR forum

[BabaYaga 15301]

14 hours ago, Pods said:

"How they got there" is the problem. D&D are stupid, uncreative men that don't understand their characters. They can't even pronounce the names of several of their major characters after working on GOT for over a decade. That's Charlie Strong stupid.

Agreed.  

"Hey, who won the Super Bowl?  Pats.  Cool.  Thanks...."

It's not the end result.  It's the progression.  That's the art.  The skill.  It's always about the story.  Walking Dead did the same thing when writers came on and started talking about archetypes and the metaphor of the broker man, etc....they are falling back into their bubble.  The Hollywood bubble of cliches and over-simplified messaging.  

What they are missing is the complexity of the progression.  It's not "where" we go.  It's "how" we get there.  The characters are no longer "smart".....because they no longer have smart writers.  Not any more complicated than that.  

[Seasick Sailor 3747]

15 hours ago, Lat22 said:

All he had to do was bang his aunt. Ick. 

 

15 hours ago, Fozzz said:

imo, in that society and given that he just found out about their alleged relation very recently, i don't think that is a big deal.  Would ppl on this board really mind if they were in his shoes?

I would definitely bang Jon's aunt. 

[Loco 3752]

Just now, Seasick Sailor said:

 

I would definitely bang Jon's aunt. 

Careful, she's a burner!

[Mojo Hand 4580]

The funny thing is, now I'll definitely read Winds of Winter if it ever comes out, and I was definitely not going to read it if the show ended well. 

[ATLLonghorn 857]

14 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It's not the end result.  It's the progression.  That's the art.  The skill.  It's always about the story.  Walking Dead did the same thing when writers came on and started talking about archetypes and the metaphor of the broker man, etc....they are falling back into their bubble.  The Hollywood bubble of cliches and over-simplified messaging.  

What they are missing is the complexity of the progression.  It's not "where" we go.  It's "how" we get there.  The characters are no longer "smart".....because they no longer have smart writers.  Not any more complicated than that.  

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've been thinking about the journey and the destination a lot over the past couple of days. Popular TV shows wrestle with this a lot. LOST is probably the best example I can think of in regards to this. As far as GoT is concerned the show was at its best (the first four seasons) when it did a good job balancing the journey and the destination. Season 6's journey wasn't great, but the destination (Battle of the Bastards, The Winds of Winter) were as good as the show ever was in terms if individual episodes.

D&D have only been concerned with the destination this season. They decided they only wanted to do 6 episodes which is their right as the creators of the show and have been racing to get to the twist of Daenerys' descent into madness. Because they rushed through it, her heel turn didn't feel earned. It felt like they were going only for the twist there because this was a show that got so much notoriety for its twists, but it's two biggest twists were logical plot choices. Ned played the game stupidly and naively and he died. Robb played it stupidly and his whole army got wiped out. It was shocking, but it was logical based on the story progression.

The word "Game" is literally in the title of the show and by and large the people who have played the game the best are the ones who have survived to the end. In the two biggest strategic moments of the season before this week Daenerys proved to be totally ineffective as a military strategist. That they just rushed to her using her cheat code (Drogon) to destroy Kings Landing went against the meticulousness the show built over the first 7 seasons and 10 years.

[BabaYaga 15301]

This years sub-par season is a testament to the fact the sunk cost fallacy is real....

[bolverk 29684]

14 minutes ago, ATLLonghorn said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've been thinking about the journey and the destination a lot over the past couple of days. Popular TV shows wrestle with this a lot. LOST is probably the best example I can think of in regards to this. As far as GoT is concerned the show was at its best (the first four seasons) when it did a good job balancing the journey and the destination. Season 6's journey wasn't great, but the destination (Battle of the Bastards, The Winds of Winter) were as good as the show ever was in terms if individual episodes.

 D&D have only been concerned with the destination this season. They decided they only wanted to do 6 episodes which is their right as the creators of the show and have been racing to get to the twist of Daenerys' descent into madness. Because they rushed through it, her heel turn didn't feel earned. It felt like they were going only for the twist there because this was a show that got so much notoriety for its twists, but it's two biggest twists were logical plot choices. Ned played the game stupidly and naively and he died. Robb played it stupidly and his whole army got wiped out. It was shocking, but it was logical based on the story progression.

 The word "Game" is literally in the title of the show and by and large the people who have played the game the best are the ones who have survived to the end. In the two biggest strategic moments of the season before this week Daenerys proved to be totally ineffective as a military strategist. That they just rushed to her using her cheat code (Drogon) to destroy Kings Landing went against the meticulousness the show built over the first 7 seasons and 10 years.

This is an excellent point. HBO offered them an essentially unlimited budget to have the final season be ten episodes, and D&D turned them down by limiting it to six. I'm too lazy to look it up now, but one of the Ds was quoted as saying something along the lines of "we always knew we wanted to tell the story in 73 hours." How they chose that random number is beyond me.  

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

16 minutes ago, bolverk said:

This is an excellent point. HBO offered them an essentially unlimited budget to have the final season be ten episodes, and D&D turned them down by limiting it to six. I'm too lazy to look it up now, but one of the Ds was quoted as saying something along the lines of "we always knew we wanted to tell the story in 73 hours." How they chose that random number is beyond me.  

 

I think that is all a load of shit. Regardless of what they say publicly I think they were getting tired of the schedule and the massive task they had and just wanted to cross it off so they could move on to different projects. 

[utee94 15832]

11 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

 

I think that is all a load of shit. Regardless of what they say publicly I think they were getting tired of the schedule and the massive task they had and just wanted to cross it off so they could move on to different projects. 

For sure.  They've stated pretty much this, publicly.  Not outright, but many comments about wanting to spend more time with their families, less time on airplanes and working overseas, etc.  I think they've done a lot of great work on this show over the years, but if they'd handed the show off to writers/runners that actually wanted to put in the time and effort, I think these final two seasons probably would have ended up  better.

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

15 minutes ago, utee94 said:

For sure.  They've stated pretty much this, publicly.  Not outright, but many comments about wanting to spend more time with their families, less time on airplanes and working overseas, etc.  I think they've done a lot of great work on this show over the years, but if they'd handed the show off to writers/runners that actually wanted to put in the time and effort, I think these final two seasons probably would have ended up  better.

 

Agreed, or at least be open to having outside help to lighten their load and finish it properly. 

[Chilly Water 416]

Your mom lightened my load and finished me properly

[BabaYaga 15301]

[C-Man 27230]

2 hours ago, ATLLonghorn said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've been thinking about the journey and the destination a lot over the past couple of days. Popular TV shows wrestle with this a lot. LOST is probably the best example I can think of in regards to this. As far as GoT is concerned the show was at its best (the first four seasons) when it did a good job balancing the journey and the destination. Season 6's journey wasn't great, but the destination (Battle of the Bastards, The Winds of Winter) were as good as the show ever was in terms if individual episodes.

D&D have only been concerned with the destination this season. They decided they only wanted to do 6 episodes which is their right as the creators of the show and have been racing to get to the twist of Daenerys' descent into madness. Because they rushed through it, her heel turn didn't feel earned. It felt like they were going only for the twist there because this was a show that got so much notoriety for its twists, but it's two biggest twists were logical plot choices. Ned played the game stupidly and naively and he died. Robb played it stupidly and his whole army got wiped out. It was shocking, but it was logical based on the story progression.

The word "Game" is literally in the title of the show and by and large the people who have played the game the best are the ones who have survived to the end. In the two biggest strategic moments of the season before this week Daenerys proved to be totally ineffective as a military strategist. That they just rushed to her using her cheat code (Drogon) to destroy Kings Landing went against the meticulousness the show built over the first 7 seasons and 10 years.

The difference between this and LOST is that I'm not sure the latter ever had a road map or grand idea of what the direction of the show would be. D+D had four lengthy books of material and then the fat man specifically sat with them and said this is the grand picture, this is what happens, this is what it means and they still fucked it all up.

[ATLLonghorn 857]

7 minutes ago, C-Man said:

The difference between this and LOST is that I'm not sure the latter ever had a road map or grand idea of what the direction of the show would be. D+D had four lengthy books of material and then the fat man specifically sat with them and said this is the grand picture, this is what happens, this is what it means and they still fucked it all up.

Yeah no doubt. I was just using LOST as the prime example a show that fiercely divided its audience between a journey show and a destination show. 

[BabaYaga 15301]

1 hour ago, ATLLonghorn said:

Yeah no doubt. I was just using LOST as the prime example a show that fiercely divided its audience between a journey show and a destination show. 

LOST was a beating.  To be fair, and I remember the interview, but one of the writers admitted they wanted to wrap the show up and the execs demanded a long, drawn out cash-cow of season after season runs.  The opposite of GOT, who painted themselves into a corner - LOST writers were forced to strong along show after show until it was a watered down mess

[Dutchrudder 11141]

The only thing LOST had written about the ending was that they wanted it to end with a close up of Jack's eye closing. It was stated that as soon as they wrote the first season, they wanted it to end that way, since the beginning of the show started with Jack's eyes opening. Everything in between was written each season, without many of the larger storylines being known until each season. They changed things a lot along the way, like in Season 4, they had to cut it off early due to the writers strike. Eko was apparently a terrible person to work with, so they wrote him out of the show. They introduced things in season 1 that weren't relevant ever again, like the bears and those mechanical cables that almost drug people below ground. They didn't have to really explain all of it away because the show was based on a shroud of mystery, but is grounded by strong characters with interesting backgrounds that determine their actions on the island. 

GoT used to be like that, centered around strong character development, but then they started winning Emmys for their battle sequences.  Every season from 5 onwards was 8 episodes of build up to 1 big battle scene, where they would cram in as much fighting as possible. Think about when Robb was winning the war against the Lannisters in Season 2, we never saw a battle but we would always see character reactions and discussions about those battles. In season 2 the big battle was Stannis attacking King's Landing, and it wasn't that much screen time, most of it was from Tyrion's view. The show was all about the character interactions, the plotting, scheming, deception and slow build up to where it boils over at the end of the season. Season 8 is taking a shortcut here, 2 episodes of build up to the resolution of the Night King is weak, 1 episode before burning down Kings Landing is weaker, and 1 episode to deal with the aftermath seems particularly weak and dissatisfying when 2/6ths of the season is big battle sequences. We're missing a lot of meat in the story here, and it's painfully obvious. 

One thing is for sure, I'll be happy to read the last 2 books if they ever get published. There's just no way GRRM goes with the exact same story D&D did to wrap this up. 

 

[Jive Turkey 12617]

What has become increasingly clear is that D&D are writing for a television show whereas GRRM was not.  And that changes all of the dynamics. 

When you're writing a book, it's very easy to kill of a character out of nowhere and move on.  When you're writing for television, you don't just kill the character, you lose the actor or actress.  And when you factor that in, it changes the way you write scripts.  GRRM gave no fucks about killing Ned Stark because he didn't have to think about how fans would react to losing Sean Bean.  But D&D clearly thought about killing any major character post-GRRM because they were afraid of how fans would react to losing the actor/actress.  That's why we haven't seen the big surprise deaths like we had when the show was based on the books.  There is no way in hell the Red Wedding would have happened if there wasn't a book and D&D were in charge.

So now we're getting these battle scenes that last way too long and we're not seeing the detailed storytelling that we used to see.

This is all on GRRM for not finishing the damn books.

 

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

3 hours ago, C-Man said:

The difference between this and LOST is that I'm not sure the latter ever had a road map or grand idea of what the direction of the show would be. D+D had four lengthy books of material and then the fat man specifically sat with them and said this is the grand picture, this is what happens, this is what it means and they still fucked it all up.

 

Dumb question amnesty please:

Is the bolded a know fact? The final whatever seasons are roughly what he had planned on doing in the books?

[C-Man 27230]

1 minute ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty please:

Is the bolded a know fact? The final whatever seasons are roughly what he had planned on doing in the books?

That's what I've heard -- or read here. I don't follow it closely enough but like I said, seeing it here and knowing he's working on the actual books (allegedly), it sure would be silly to have the TV series tell one tale and have the books go in an entirely different direction with the same characters.

[Dutchrudder 11141]

9 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty please:

Is the bolded a know fact? The final whatever seasons are roughly what he had planned on doing in the books?

Yeah, well, D&D kinda forgot about everything in between and just winged it.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

16 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty please:

Is the bolded a know fact? The final whatever seasons are roughly what he had planned on doing in the books?

We don't know how much he told them, but it's been reported that he sat down and gave them essentially bullet points for the end.   Benioff has said in particular that there were three "holy shit" moments, two of which were the Shireen burning and Hodor's story, and one which was "from the very end," and many people are now guessing it was Dany turning mad queen and burning down KL.  But, maybe there's an amazing ending still to come that they were talking about. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[Dutchrudder 11141]

If it ends up with Hotpie on the Iron Throne, all will be forgiven. 

[hobbes2702 13045]

23 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Tyrion’s decision making went to shit for a reason.  He got greedy when he got close to Dany.  Tyrion was always a joke in the Lannister family, he was always trying to prove himself and outsmart everyone.  Once he became the Dragon lady’s trusted adviser, he got access to power he’s never had before and it fucked him up.  He went after Casterly Rock because of his stupid ego, like he still had something to prove.  FFS when Sansa Stark is calling you out for your stupidity, it’s time to reassess your perspective. 

He was Hand of the King for Joffrey and did plenty well. He wasn’t corrupted by power. The writing sucks I don’t know why you keep trying to justify it. It’s still entertaining.

On the watch podcast they described is as going from a Francis Ford Coppola movie to a Michael Bay movie. That’s spot on.

[52-80 19162]

41 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Dumb question amnesty please:

Is the bolded a know fact? The final whatever seasons are roughly what he had planned on doing in the books?

GRRM actually wrote episodes up to season 3 or 4.  then it followed the books until 5.  6 and onward they went off his designed end-points..... atleast the significant ones.  the fuck up is how they steered it there. 

2 hours ago, Jive Turkey said:

What has become increasingly clear is that D&D are writing for a television show whereas GRRM was not.  And that changes all of the dynamics. 

When you're writing a book, it's very easy to kill of a character out of nowhere and move on.  When you're writing for television, you don't just kill the character, you lose the actor or actress.  And when you factor that in, it changes the way you write scripts.  GRRM gave no fucks about killing Ned Stark because he didn't have to think about how fans would react to losing Sean Bean.  But D&D clearly thought about killing any major character post-GRRM because they were afraid of how fans would react to losing the actor/actress.  That's why we haven't seen the big surprise deaths like we had when the show was based on the books.  There is no way in hell the Red Wedding would have happened if there wasn't a book and D&D were in charge.

 

The umbrage with the show, post-fatman, isnt with whether certain people survived or died.  or really how they died.  its what they do until that point thats quite senseless.

 

 

 

All that said, i quite enjoyed s08e05, stupid as parts of it was, so on that trajectory im looking forward to a satisfying s08e06

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

6 hours ago, JimmyHoffa said:

 

I think that is all a load of shit. Regardless of what they say publicly I think they were getting tired of the schedule and the massive task they had and just wanted to cross it off so they could move on to different projects. 

A couple of the actors were done.

[Pato del Muerto 52522]

1 hour ago, C-Man said:

That's what I've heard -- or read here. I don't follow it closely enough but like I said, seeing it here and knowing he's working on the actual books (allegedly), it sure would be silly to have the TV series tell one tale and have the books go in an entirely different direction with the same characters.

Maybe grrm sees the show and his books as different, and gave them the ending of the show as he saw it, but sees something different for the ending of the books. 

I’d say or doesn’t yet have an ending for the books, but I’ve read that he has the entire story and that’s why he kept adding books to the series as he’s realized he can’t tell the story in the number of books he thought. 

[C-Man 27230]

38 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

He was Hand of the King for Joffrey and did plenty well. He wasn’t corrupted by power. The writing sucks I don’t know why you keep trying to justify it. It’s still entertaining.

On the watch podcast they described is as going from a Francis Ford Coppola movie to a Michael Bay movie. That’s spot on.

Or just keeping the Francis Ford/Godfather theme going, it's like Godfather I/II vs Godfather III.

[HouTex 1878]

Not sure if posted already.

[Patrick Bateman 3917]

23 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

I hope Dany puts Tyrion on trial like she did Varys, but when she asks if he has any last words he requests a Trial By Combat, and selects Drogon as his champion. Dragons can't talk, so it can't decline, and nobody wants to fight a dragon, so he beats the system and strolls off back home to Casterly Rock. Fade out... The End.

That may be your best post..... ever.

22 hours ago, KeysPhoneWallet said:

Varys was trying to poison Dany, a risk he believed was worth it. The guards must have caught the girl and thus Varys. Right? He wasn’t sacrificing himself, he got caught trying to poison her food.

No, Dany wouldn't eat because she was so depressed.  The girl also lets Varys know it's getting more difficult as he tries to coax her to try again.  This is a callback to a Pycelle quote about poison being the weapon of women, cravens and eunuchs.  

 

22 hours ago, LonghornSean said:

I definitely think they have hinted at Tyrion being in love with Dany, or at least really infatuated. I remember noticing the look he gave her early on (Season 6?) after he said something like, "He (Jorah, or maybe Dario) wasn't the first to love you, and he won't be the last."  Also when Jon boned Dany on the boat and Tyrion was hanging out longingly outside the door.

Doesn't explain some of his poor tactical decisions lately, but can give some reason for his unquestioned loyalty to her.

Dinklage in interviews after season 7 has admitted that Tyrion is somewhat in love with her, but understands he has no shot.

 

8 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

The funny thing is, now I'll definitely read Winds of Winter if it ever comes out, and I was definitely not going to read it if the show ended well. 

What if it's the same basic plot points?

[Patrick Bateman 3917]

6 hours ago, C-Man said:

The difference between this and LOST is that I'm not sure the latter ever had a road map or grand idea of what the direction of the show would be. D+D had four lengthy books of material and then the fat man specifically sat with them and said this is the grand picture, this is what happens, this is what it means and they still fucked it all up.

Did they are is this just the story?  Sure, fat man now gets a do over, but what if this is it?  What if the reason he hasn't published book 6 in 8 almost 9 years is because he has no fucking idea how to get from where he left off to the ending he wants without writing 10,000 more pages?

[llanoflash 151]

2 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

We don't know how much he told them, but it's been reported that he sat down and gave them essentially bullet points for the end.   Benioff has said in particular that there were three "holy shit" moments, two of which were the Shireen burning and Hodor's story, and one which was "from the very end," and many people are now guessing it was Dany turning mad queen and burning down KL.  But, maybe there's an amazing ending still to come that they were talking about. 

And it turns out hodor’s story didn’t mean a gottdam fucking thing. He died to protect a meaningless shithead

[Patrick Bateman 3917]

2 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

If it ends up with Hotpie on the Iron Throne, all will be forgiven. 

With Ser Pounce purring away...

 

[BluTechsan 393]

I've only watched the series one time through during it's original release dates. Out of curiosity I began watching season 1 again this week as a refresher and to compare then and now.

Absolutely it's better.

But I wonder if that's because it was our introduction to ALL the characters. Time needed to be taken, and they took plenty of it, in laying the groundwork for the story to come - and dang if it's nearly not all right there in episode 1 - but you all already know that.

What really struck me tho since it's so prominent in these threads regarding the current episodes is the amount of dumbassness that took place then as well. It was fresh material so we accepted it - the Golden Crown scene from ep 5 being just one example.

[DDD Dad 14339]

[Eskimohorn 5635]

I've only watched the series one time through during it's original release dates. Out of curiosity I began watching season 1 again this week as a refresher and to compare then and now.
Absolutely it's better.
But I wonder if that's because it was our introduction to ALL the characters. Time needed to be taken, and they took plenty of it, in laying the groundwork for the story to come - and dang if it's nearly not all right there in episode 1 - but you all already know that.
What really struck me tho since it's so prominent in these threads regarding the current episodes is the amount of dumbassness that took place then as well. It was fresh material so we accepted it - the Golden Crown scene from ep 5 being just one example.

You mean in ep 6 where Vaserys gets his dome crowned?

[Irish Wrist Watch 1376]

4 hours ago, llanoflash said:

And it turns out hodor’s story didn’t mean a gottdam fucking thing. He died to protect a meaningless shithead

No fucking shit. And I'm going to be really pissed if that worthless fucker, after all this time, finally does something. He shoulda been offed five years ago. Shoulda been his burned carcass hanging in front of Winterfell.

[MoJames 8244]

https://i.redd.it/4eoqp48c4fy21.jpg

[HenryJames 66111]

On 5/14/2019 at 10:37 AM, MoJames said:

 

What his death scene should have looked like:

[NOMAAA 1696]

Pretty awesome ep after rewatch. 

[TexasEd 8067]

Yeah, just read this last page and none of the prior seasons but here are my WTF moments:

• What was the purpose of the whole Bran story?
  • Was he just there to be bait and a second source for the research Samwell Tarley did?
  • I thought the interaction between him and Jaime might have been more meaningful but his personality is basically a robot now
• What happened to Benjin Stark?  I thought he would have played a part in the battle against the Night King
• Jaime and Cersi
  • What a downer, the roof fell on them.  It should have been something more poetic
  • Will Dany even know they are dead?  

[Hmbre97 6308]

[Pato del Muerto 52522]

Speeding up the video ruins this one

[BluTechsan 393]

4 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

You mean in ep 6 where Vaserys gets his dome crowned?

 

LOL - yes, ep 6 titled "Golden Crown"

see, the the dumbassness is contagious.

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

6 hours ago, NOMAAA said:

Pretty awesome ep after rewatch. 

There will be none of that in this thread

[mr.goodkat 464]

10 hours ago, TexasEd said:

Yeah, just read this last page and none of the prior seasons but here are my WTF moments:

• What was the purpose of the whole Bran story?
  • Was he just there to be bait and a second source for the research Samwell Tarley did?
  • I thought the interaction between him and Jaime might have been more meaningful but his personality is basically a robot now
• What happened to Benjin Stark?  I thought he would have played a part in the battle against the Night King
• Jaime and Cersi
  • What a downer, the roof fell on them.  It should have been something more poetic
  • Will Dany even know they are dead?  

bran is the history keeper . he knows all the nk wanted to wipe out all man and their history . bran is not hindered by emotion even with the man that crippled him . ying / yang  yada yada . benjen stark died helping jon escape the horde of ww after the first dragon died .  cersi and jaimie dying together being crushed by a symbol of their(lannister)  power "the red keep " i agree it was ....under whelming but was at least a stab at poetic .