Formula 1 2024

NoName · October 21

31 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

And if Max had kept 1/16" of his tire on the white line, I'd 100% agree with you. Keep your dive bombing within track limits, even if you're not following a "racing line", and I'm usually perfectly fine with aggressive moves. But he didn't. Once you leave the track by your own "error" (or desperate attempt to defend), it should be fair game to keep my pace right around you.

Max dive bombed Lando to pass him on Turn 1 at the start of the race almost identically--except he stayed on the track. Lando complained, but Zak Brown basically told the broadcast team, "Yeah, he dive-bombed us, but he stayed on the track...what are ya gonna do?"

One guy left the track, passed the other driver, didn't give the spot back and then complained about it.

It's a penalty no matter who the driver is.

Was a team failure to not have him give the spot back. Clearly they and Lando didn't think he would be able to pass again or they would have done it, which is comical. Landos car is very clearly much faster than Max in the RBR considering he got up by 4.1 seconds or whatever after he passed him in the last like 5 laps.

Lando is a lot of things but he's already blown the WDC to a guy who genuinely would have been better off with Yuki or Danny in the second RBR seat this year, Checo is an absolute non factor and easily the worst driver of the top 3 teams in the WCC. If you add in Mercedes he's the 8th of those 8 drivers in quality. Just dreadful.

Edited October 21 by NoName

Goofyboy · October 21

One guy left the track, passed the other driver, didn't give the spot back and then complained about it.
It's a penalty no matter who the driver is.
Was a team failure to not have him give the spot back. Clearly they and Lando didn't think he would be able to pass again or they would have done it, which is comical. Landos car is very clearly much faster than Max in the RBR considering he got up by 4.1 seconds or whatever after he passed him in the last like 5 laps.
Lando is a lot of things but he's already blown the WDC to a guy who genuinely would have been better off with Yuki or Danny in the second RBR seat this year, Checo is an absolute non factor and easily the worst driver of the top 3 teams in the WCC. If you add in Mercedes he's the 8th of those 8 drivers in quality. Just dreadful.

BOTH guys left the track. Lando won position and should have retained it based on Max failing to defend and forcing Lando off

aggie08 · October 21

32 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

You don't get to pass someone off track. Full stop.

I get why they feel the need to draw that line in the sand there. BUT, you shouldn't be rewarded for driving yourself and your competitor off the track, if not purposely, then at least haphazardly. What's your suggestion?

I suppose if Max had done it in a couple more turns, he eventually would have gotten tagged for reckless driving. Doesn't seem like much of a deterrent though. It's hard enough to pass in this sport...essentially letting people leave the track to defend seems like the wrong move.

15 minutes ago, NoName said:

One guy left the track, passed the other driver, didn't give the spot back and then complained about it.

It's a penalty no matter who the driver is.

Well, they both left the track. But I understand your point.

Edited October 21 by aggie08

Goofyboy · October 21

As Jensen said - you can’t pull the same move in Monaco. You’d drive them and yourself into a wall. It shouldn’t be allowed here just because there is a run off.

faps · October 21

Replace the paved runoff with gravel. Some guys cars might get fucked up going off, but we wouldn't have to rely on the stewards to make the right call. Plus, the drivers might take to the runoff less and make the pass happen on track. idk

Chewbacca · October 21

Man, you Lando/McLaren fans have a screw loose. You should be upset that the team didn't tell him to immediately give the place back.

morehornsepower · October 21

I honestly think if he had immediately given the place back, he would have had a legitimate chance of Max getting a penalty for forcing him off track. And, as others have said, he would likely have passed him again anyway. (And yes, I'm a Red Bull fan.)

Edited October 21 by morehornsepower
no english gooder

Anton Chigurh · October 21

Replace the paved runoff with gravel. Some guys cars might get fucked up going off, but we wouldn't have to rely on the stewards to make the right call. Plus, the drivers might take to the runoff less and make the pass happen on track. idk

Can’t if you want to keep MotoGP.

wood · October 21

The answer to all of this, as it is with most things in F1, is to go retro in track construction. If there's gravel there instead of pavement, neither one of them will go off, and if they do, their races are impacted negatively at best.

And the best summary of that incident I've seen, is this one, from a Motorsport Mayhem poster:

Quote

Max knows how to play the game, he let off the brakes just enough to be ahead at the apex which made the corner his no matter what happens at the exit. He wasn't driving the track, he was driving the rule book.

aggie08 · October 21

And the argument is that the rule book currently sucks if it rewards you for purposely carrying too much speed to stay on the track just to be ahead at the apex.

Burt Macklin · October 21

After thinking about it, they should have awarded Max a 5 second penalty for forcing another driver off track and a 10 second penalty to Lando for overtaking off track. that way they send a message that you can’t let off the brakes to get to the apex first with not chance to actually make the corner. They gave George and someone else a similar penalty for forcing another driver off track, and what Max did should be a penalty.

The only reason Max had the apex is because he let off the brakes, meaning he had no chance of making the corner. If you do that and force a driver off track, it should be a penalty every time.

Chewbacca · October 22

Once again, lava runoffs prove to be the only clear answer.

utee94 · October 22

aggie08 · October 22

36 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Once again, lava runoffs prove to be the only clear answer.

I'm a pretty big Max supporter, but this has nothing to do with him or McLaren. (Other than Max being the most frequent offender.) Jamming it into corners to get the apex at the expense of being able to keep your race car or your competitor's race car on the racetrack is some bullshit that should carry some kind of negative consequence. Keep it on track, and you can basically be as aggressive as you want.

wood · October 22

17 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And the argument is that the rule book currently sucks if it rewards you for purposely carrying too much speed to stay on the track just to be ahead at the apex.

100%. Older drivers like Alonso railed against it for years, but eventually they realized that their complaints were falling on deaf ears and said "If other people are going to do it to me and get away with it, then I might as well join the party and start doing everything they're going to let people get away with". Max came into F1 after that kind of move had already become accepted. I don't blame the drivers. I blame the FIA and the idiotic stewarding system for lack of clarity and consistency, letting them get away with all kinds of things. And I blame track runoff design. If the FIA would crack down on this stuff and some other kinds of moves, they would stop and driving stndards would improve, but they don't. Of course, like I said earlier, if there were gravel right on the edge of that turn, 99.9% chance we're not even having this discussion.

Edited October 22 by wood

wood · October 22

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

After thinking about it, they should have awarded Max a 5 second penalty for forcing another driver off track and a 10 second penalty to Lando for overtaking off track. that way they send a message that you can’t let off the brakes to get to the apex first with not chance to actually make the corner. They gave George and someone else a similar penalty for forcing another driver off track, and what Max did should be a penalty.

Great point. Someone on Sky brought it up on Friday I think, talking about the reticence of the stewards to apply penalties to both drivers rather than just one, even when both drivers were wrong. They just go after whomever was predominantly at fault. It's stupid, but I pretty much gave up on F1 being a serious sport in this regard a long time ago.

NoName · October 22

14 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

BOTH guys left the track. Lando won position and should have retained it based on Max failing to defend and forcing Lando off

This isn't the same! And the guy way off the track passed the other guy. It's literally textbook and if this was Lando passing Oscar or Sainz people would very clearly say it's a penalty on him.

This isn't rocket science. Leaving the track to gain an advantage is a clear penalty.

If you want to argue it should be a penalty on Max then argue that. But acting like this isn't a penalty in a non lap 1 situation is insane.

NoName · October 22

12 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

After thinking about it, they should have awarded Max a 5 second penalty for forcing another driver off track and a 10 second penalty to Lando for overtaking off track. that way they send a message that you can’t let off the brakes to get to the apex first with not chance to actually make the corner. They gave George and someone else a similar penalty for forcing another driver off track, and what Max did should be a penalty.

Absolutely totally and completely agree.

utee94 · October 22

Yes it should be penalty on both. And if it's a second offense for a driver in the same race, the penalties should start doubling.

Burt Macklin · October 22

13 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yes it should be penalty on both. And if it's a second offense for a driver in the same race, the penalties should start doubling.

The thing that pisses me off is two penalties correct both actions and let drivers know what Max did will be penalized in the future so you don’t have to pass off track while he’s doing his Max bullshit. Instead they only penalize Lando so Max will keep running people off track and create bad racing and other drivers will feel the need to pass off track so Max can’t keep shoving them off at every turn and sty behind him.

They just compounded the problem instead of correcting both actions. The racing standards in F1 are shit and a big part of it is because they’ve been allowing (and legalizing) Max’s antics for years.

Goofyboy · October 22

Russel starts from pit lane and beats Perez.

NoName · October 22

41 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Russel starts from pit lane and beats Perez.

He's toast in exactly 5 days and 7 hours.

And if he isn't Max should go to another team.

Mittens · October 22

4 hours ago, NoName said:

Leaving the track to gain an advantage is a clear penalty.

Isn't forcing someone else off track to gain an advantage also a clear penalty?

utee94 · October 22

Leave Checo alone!

NoName · October 22

22 minutes ago, Mittens said:

Isn't forcing someone else off track to gain an advantage also a clear penalty?

If Lando had gotten back behind him like anyone with a brain would have told him to do I bet max would have gotten the penalty and Lando would have either passed him or gotten the third podium spot after Max got a 5 sec penalty.

Instead he passed him while way off track and didn't do that..dumb dumb dumb.

Mittens · October 22

9 minutes ago, NoName said:

If Lando had gotten back behind him like anyone with a brain would have told him to do I bet max would have gotten the penalty

Disagree

Goofyboy · October 22

Martin Brundel brought up a good point - Lando was ahead of Max after the previous corner. So, that puts Max coming from behind to late break and miss the corner (he also went off) and force Lando off. Lando retained his position from the previous corner.

Regardless of all of this - we can all agree we need the lava pits or gravel around the track.

Burt Macklin · October 22

55 minutes ago, Mittens said:

Isn't forcing someone else off track to gain an advantage also a clear penalty?

It should be. I don’t see how what Max did was any different than what George did to Bottas and got penalized for.

31 minutes ago, NoName said:

If Lando had gotten back behind him like anyone with a brain would have told him to do I bet max would have gotten the penalty and Lando would have either passed him or gotten the third podium spot after Max got a 5 sec penalty.

Instead he passed him while way off track and didn't do that..dumb dumb dumb.

I don’t agree with this because they should’ve penalized Max anyways for that conduct. For whatever reason the stewards decided Max didn’t have to give space. I think technically they would say it’s because Max was ahead at the apex, but again that’s bullshit because he was only ahead at the apex because he let off the brakes and could never make the corner. That should be a penalty every time if the inside driver can’t make the corner and shoves the other driver off track.

pops · October 22

3 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

It should be. I don’t see how what Max did was any different than what George did to Bottas and got penalized for.

I don’t agree with this because they should’ve penalized Max anyways for that conduct. For whatever reason the stewards decided Max didn’t have to give space. I think technically they would say it’s because Max was ahead at the apex, but again that’s bullshit because he was only ahead at the apex because he let off the brakes and could never make the corner. That should be a penalty every time if the inside driver can’t make the corner and shoves the other driver off track.

This. You aren't ahead at the apex if you don't make the corner. You missed the fucking apex.

utee94 · October 22

14 minutes ago, pops said:

This. You aren't ahead at the apex if you don't make the corner. You missed the fucking apex.

Yup. If I drive in a straight line and never hit the brakes, I will most certainly reach the apex before a car beside me that is actually attempting to make the turn and stay on the track.

That doesn't mean I won the corner. It means I'm a dangerous asshole that needs to be penalized repeatedly until I stop doing it.

52-80 · October 23

22 hours ago, NoName said:

This isn't rocket science. Leaving the track to gain an advantage is a clear penalty.

If you want to argue it should be a penalty on Max then argue that. But acting like this isn't a penalty in a non lap 1 situation is insane.

It's a penalty because the advantage is that the other car is constrained by having to stay on the track. If the other car is also off track, it's not disadvantaged.

Penalize both cars equal amounts (+5 or +10s) for going off. No swapping of places because neither of them were disadvantaged relative to eachother. Done.

Edited October 23 by 52-80

Hawndoh · October 23

Also, the rules shouldn't be different on lap 1.

52-80 · October 23

we all saw the brake trace right? you have a right to a (single move) defense by changing from your typical line, or your braking point, to operate within the bounds of the track.

but if you brake later than usual AND especially if you LET OFF the brake (2nd yellow pointer) , then clearly your intent is to push people off, you have no intent to actually make the turn yourself. thats disqualifying of a racing move.

Burt Macklin · October 23

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

we all saw the brake trace right? you have a right to a (single move) defense by changing from your typical line, or your braking point, to operate within the bounds of the track.

but if you brake later than usual AND especially if you LET OFF the brake (2nd yellow pointer) , then clearly your intent is to push people off, you have no intent to actually make the turn yourself. thats disqualifying of a racing move.

This is good stuff. The telemetry is very damning. It's ridiculous the stewards didn't look at this and issue him a penalty.

utee94 · October 25

On a more positive note, just want to take a step back in time to remember the greatest Formula 1 helmet of all time:

VABuckeye · October 26

Downvotes incoming I’m sure. Let’s also not forget the greatest Indycar helmet of all-time.

wood · October 26

Sounds familiar ...

Quote

Russell and Sainz both agreed that a gravel strip on the outside of Turn 12 would largely fix the underlying issue, and few drivers are expecting similar issues this weekend at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico City.

"The root cause of the problem is having a circuit that allows you to run wide," Russell said. "And if we take Austria last year as an example, you had, I don't know, 300 track limit problems. They put gravel in, and there's no problems.

"If you put gravel on that corner, Lando doesn't go off and overtake, and Max doesn't brake that late and go off as well."

Sainz added making circuit changes would be much more straightforward than endless discussions about racing rules.

"If you think about it, the solution might be solved by itself by circuit standards or modifications. We keep going around in circles with guidelines that might be easier to solve with certain, slight changes to the track, which some tracks have already performed."

Austin's Circuit of the Americas, which also hosts MotoGP that has different run-off requirements, is understood to be in discussions with the FIA over potential changes for 2025.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/drivers-seeking-fia-answers-over-why-verstappen-wasnt-penalised-in-austin/10666509/

flatdawgs · October 26

Any of the Surly F1 cabal been to CDMX for a race? Trying to convince my brother to go - it's one of my favorite cities to visit. Looks like the track is easily accessible by Metro and was wondering if that's handled well during race weekend.

wood · October 26

1 minute ago, flatdawgs said:

Any of the Surly F1 cabal been to CDMX for a race? Trying to convince my brother to go - it's one of my favorite cities to visit. Looks like the track is easily accessible by Metro and was wondering if that's handled well during race weekend.

Never been to the GP, but we might go next year, as Mrs. Wood (no pics) is dying to return to CdMx for Dia de Muertos. I have a buddy who goes to the GP every year. You may see him on the grid again this weekend. He says transportation is not necessarily easy, but it's doable, esp if you go earlier rather than later in the day. I think I'd be most interested in just doing Friday. Fun fact, on a typical day, there are over 4M riders on the CdMx Metro.

FYI for any of you who like travelling to 'European' kinds of cities, go to Mexico City. It's a great place to visit. It's the most 'European' city I know of in North America outside of Montreal.

flatdawgs · October 26

Thanks Wood - figured I could count on you. I've used the metro extensively there (and in a bunch of cities a bit, uh, edgier) and it's generally my preferred method of travel. Fun and underrated city even without the race. Would love to see a Euro race but they'll not be having another Portuguese GP any time soon - shame as Portimão isn't all that far from where I stay in Tavira. Montreal is definitely on the list as well.

wood · October 26

7 minutes ago, flatdawgs said:

Thanks Wood - figured I could count on you. I've used the metro extensively there (and in a bunch of cities a bit, uh, edgier) and it's generally my preferred method of travel. Fun and underrated city even without the race. Would love to see a Euro race but they'll not be having another Portuguese GP any time soon - shame as Portimão isn't all that far from where I stay in Tavira. Montreal is definitely on the list as well.

Of course! You may have done this already, but one great thing to do is to get a driver for the day who knows the history of the city, the ruins, etc, and let him/her drive you around for the day. Get your (typically very helpful) hotel staff to recommend someone. Oh, and as Crofty mentioned, the Lucha Libre is fantastic.

Edited October 26 by wood

aggie08 · October 26

Jesus Sergio.

Give Lawson the big seat.

NoName · October 26

52 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Jesus Sergio.

Give Lawson the big seat.

Literally anyone else other than Checo. And Haas got both in q3!!!

Edited October 26 by NoName

NoName · October 26

Just comical this isn't going to lead to a WCC because of who he's saddled with.

ChickenSandwich · October 26

Want to save tires and improve the product?

Cut 10 mins from Q1. Thats a min of 20 sets of tires and a shit load more volatility for Q2.

Also: Eliminate sprint races and replace all P2 with a reverse grid race. Score points 1-6 and award an extra point for most passes (exclude teammates and 2x on same car)

Score positions 1-15 to make the midfield even more fun to watch.

*parc fermé after Saturday Qualifying

Edited October 26 by ChickenSandwich

NoName · October 27

NoName · October 27

Hoooooooooooooly shit.

G650 · October 27

Is the audio fucked up for anyone else

Goofyboy · October 27

That’s just how Danica sounds.

kevwun · October 27

Sainz tapped Norris in the nuts right before he was going to get interviewed. I think he should get a 5 second penalty.

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