South/Central Texas Multiple Homicides (6 dead, 9 shot) 12/5/23

[Brisketexan 103657]

Thanks for providing that history and the reasons this is more difficult to solve than the gun issue. It’s very complex. Have been wanting to post something similar for a long time just couldn’t put it together as succinctly as you did. 
it’s depressing. And it’s not as simple as just more healthcare and access and resources and education—-though we don’t do enough in any of those areas. Simply put we probably all know families dealing with someone with mental health struggles. And how damned difficult it is to deal with and to solve. But we have to get help for those in the midst of a psychotic episode and at least try to diagnose them so they can be put on a regimen of meds and therapy. The trickery part is when they stop taking their meds. It’s just depressing.ugggh

I have a super nutty wacky crazy idea….what if we just don’t let those people have guns?

[InkaUtexas 24933]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have a super nutty wacky crazy idea….what if we just don’t let those people have guns?

Well Sir, for that we would need laws to prevent that. And hold people who break those laws and provide them accountable.

Oh wait.

[wood 10966]

24 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

It’s very possible. After that maybe he had no plan. No clue what he did in the hours in between shooting on Shadylane and shooting the bicyclist near the Alamo Theater. And now we know why we didn’t get a true alert of an active shooter and a description. And the explanation is infuriatingly stupid. 

I can't remember where I heard or saw it, but iirc someone said he had changed cars  between the two Austin houses. Perhaps he stole one, or maybe he just laid low for a while, figuring out his next move. Admittedly though, other than my faint memory of someone saying he changed vehicles, this is pure speculation.

[Updawg 2245]

Seems like he stole cars from each place he stopped.

[Nicole44 21969]

8 minutes ago, wood said:

I can't remember where I heard or saw it, but iirc someone said he had changed cars  between the two Austin houses. Perhaps he stole one, or maybe he just laid low for a while, figuring out his next move. Admittedly though, other than my faint memory of someone saying he changed vehicles, this is pure speculation.

Then you hear robbery/burglary/backyard in relation to the final murders and shootout with police and some have postulated he stole the car he fled in on the brief high speed chase from the last victims. No clue. They’ve not been great with information sharing. I’m sure because he is alive and will be prosecuted there is a lot more they can’t share. And are likely still putting together. And retracing his movements from San Antonio as best they can. 

[Nicole44 21969]

1 minute ago, Updawg said:

Seems like he stole cars from each place he stopped.

That’s what I was thinking after reading the AAS article. That the first two Austin homicide victims one was getting into his car. Perhaps he stole that car and drove around or did whatever for a few hours and needed another one. I assume he used his parents car to get to Austin (not sure if he had his own car.) 

[Updawg 2245]

He did leave fast from the last scene and finally got caught down 45. I’m sure that was stolen

[F250 28544]

28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have a super nutty wacky crazy idea….what if we just don’t let those people have guns?

After the Uvalde shooting my ex-MIL called me freaked out and asking about my kid's and how their school is being secured. She isn't really political but my ex-FIL is and takes a fattyflattie stance which my ex-MIL just repeats.

My ex-MIL basically said that the Uvalde shooter was crazy and it isn't the gun's fault. I replied, "Yeah, he was crazy and crazy people shouldn't be able to buy guns". She got it and agreed but then said "I am going to ask John about this." Basically, she realized we need stricter guns laws but then is asking fattyflattie for advice. LOL

 

 

[Beau Vine 53737]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Also, the email AISD sent out made it sound like the cop stopped something worse from happening.

When is Greg going to tell us that it could have been worse?

[Pimphand 5525]

Nice job by the idiots at Texas Organizing Project getting this dude out of jail. It is obvious we either do not take mental illness seriously or know what to do about it but I think we can officially say creating a revolving door of trying to get inmates out of jail all the time is not working out.

Bro had 3 warrants out for his arrest what on earth were Bexar county police doing? Its pretty clear he wasn't hiding living with his parents.

Sucks people had to die especially the mom pushing the stroller that is horrific.

[YGIFS 19445]

The criminal justice system needs serious reform from and I don't know what that looks like.  Too many violent offenders get out too easily.  Too many victimless crime committers (drugs mainly) stay in too long.  Too much mental illness goes unchecked in there.  And the list goes on and on and on.  So what do we do as a country in the meantime?  We give all of them unfettered access to nearly unlimited firepower while we sort it out.  Seems logical.  

[Guest]

What percentage of murders do you think the murderer looks back and says "Yeah, I'm happy I did that."? I feel like if someone harmed your immediate family, it could be argued that no matter the consequences you are good with your choice. I will also note that 3-4 were labeled as self defense but still count as homicides.

Everything else? 

There have now been 71 murders in Austin. And for fucking what? The kid who killed two in a hookah shop on 183? The guy that shot some lady on I-35 after a fender bender? Random arguments and fights? Holy hell, how is killing someone improving the situation? 

Also, of the 71 murders listed on KXAN's site, looks like 7 were a form other than shooting. So 90% are due to guns.

[Bevo&Pevo 4932]

I'm starting a rumor that Shane James is related to Craig James of CJK5H fame.  

[Nicole44 21969]

1 hour ago, Pimphand said:

Nice job by the idiots at Texas Organizing Project getting this dude out of jail. It is obvious we either do not take mental illness seriously or know what to do about it but I think we can officially say creating a revolving door of trying to get inmates out of jail all the time is not working out.

Bro had 3 warrants out for his arrest what on earth were Bexar county police doing? Its pretty clear he wasn't hiding living with his parents.

Sucks people had to die especially the mom pushing the stroller that is horrific.

We do this a lot. Throw the baby out with the bath water. We continually worry about the “slippery slope” something I have heard my whole GD life instead of taking a common sense approach to an issue. we would rather have a couple of crazies slip through the cracks I guess and kill a bunch of people for the greater good. Instead of you know looking at these people on a case by case basis and not just bailing groups of people out without rhyme nor reason. 
 

We don’t want to go back to the way things were where the ACLU stepped in to keep people from being committed indefinitely to mental institutions and put away for the wrong reasons and losing their freedom. We also do not want people in obvious distress and potentially a danger to others to just wing it on their own without proper supervision.

 

I read an article last night that spoke to this. There should be check ins and supervision for some types of people when they have psychotic breaks. Instead we are all grappling with why are all these innocent people now dead. Wondering why something was not done. Things can be done if we can realize that there are some people who cannot be “fixed” without proper supervision (think of it like a parolee checking in with their parole officer.) We should be following a strict plan authored by mental health professionals and a community of therapists, psychiatrists and psychologists. The idea is we should try to help these people be able to function as well as they can so they too can have as normal a life as possible.
 

Instead we have allowed these people to be free range along with their family members and to have access to weapons and we  use the police (going from one call to another) as some kind of stop gap for them. Bad solution. I honestly blame lawyers. So worried about the slippery slope we are all sliding right off the damn mountain. Truth.

Non violent offenders shouldn’t be incarcerated with violent offenders and most of the nonviolent crimes can be dealt with without jail time. Or ruining one’s record and future chances for a career.
 

Truly violent fucking people shouldn’t be just given bail. If necessary and they are bailed out put them in a halfway house under supervision depending on how violent the crime was and the offender’s history. You have to look at the offender, their history and the offense.
 

We don’t do this. But because we have thrown people in jail disproportionately according to race and for way more than the crime we have groups bailing people out in groups thinking they are doing a great service. And as per usual people slip through the cracks.

History is littered with this shit. Guys getting out and committing even worse atrocities and we are sitting ducks. I see stories every day on this. Shit the movie Halloween (with Michael Myers) specifically addresses the rehabilitation program that was popular in California where they let out people like the Dating Game Killer and shit like that. Who then went on to murder many more women. The system is not broken but it is seriously flawed. We don’t take into account the correct factors. These decisions should be made on a case by case basis. We should devote more resources and help towards mental health and education as well as prison reform. 

We think we are doing right by everyone. We aren’t. Tuesday was a perfect example about this. Or the police officer last year that shot his daughter he’d been molesting for years when he was out on bail. At some point people cannot be fixed and should not be allowed to ruin the lives of innocent people. I’m am sorry they cannot be all fixed and to live productive lives. But you know what? I am even sorrier for their victims whose lives were cut short because we were too paralyzed to make tough decisions when they are warranted. 
 

TLDR: I totally understand. I probably won’t read it either. We need a common sense approach instead of being so paralyzed by the slippery slope we do nothing. Because what we are doing ain’t working. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11571]

8 minutes ago, Bevo&Pevo said:

I'm starting a rumor that Shane James is related to Craig James of CJK5H fame.  

It is certainly true that we have seen NO evidence that they two are unrelated.  Craig James has yet to deny that he is related to Shane James.  

[texasdago 7465]

This whole thing is heart-breaking on so many levels...

[Not that Bob 733]

I go back to my thought that we will have to have an enormous shift in our American "ethos", if that is the correct word, our absolutism regarding "freedom". Land of the free. Home of the brave. All that shit. 

1) Remove all the guns? Too late even if we tried. Can you imagine the "revolution" if the government came to everyone's door and started collecting guns? That horse is already out of the barn. I think it would be logistically impossible. If possible, it would take generations. 

2) Stricter gun laws. We can't/don't enforce the one's we have now. Experience says laws don't do it. Do we put the seller in prison? A licensed seller who has passed all the tests and shown himself to be a good hobbyist?  We have a drummer on this board who might take offense. 

3) Keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. See my original post. It is difficult to impossible to 100% accurately diagnose a crazy person, and some crazy people come in and out of their illness. At what point do we say "Okay man, you've been psychotic three times and three's the limit. We gave you two chances, but no mas. Here's your straight jacket".  Or, "Fuck man! We missed that one! He killed people on his first psychotic episode! Oops!". Crazy people are an invisible group, in most cases. If not invisible, at least very difficult to see. And if we see them with 100% accuracy, at what point do we take away their freedom? Where is that line? Who gets to determine that line? Who gets the responsibility for enforcing that line?

4) In the deep dark recesses of my past, I spent 5 years working at "mental asylums", or "looney bins", or the "nut hut", whatever. They are not as horrible as the horror movies would have you believe, especially with the advent of more refined antipsychotic medications. Not as bad as you think, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live out my life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want my precious family member to live out their life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who made the decision to sentence a fellow human being to live out their life in one. Even if we spent half the national economy making mental hospitals into "resorts", I wouldn't want to live my life out in one. "Sir, here is your room at the Hilton on Waikiki Beach. Your dinner will be served at 6PM. You will not be allowed to leave the premises. Ever."

As I said above, this will take an enormous change in the fundamental beliefs we have about society, about the worth, and the price of freedom. Is my freedom from the anxiety of worrying about mass murderers equivalent to the freedom of a mentally ill person? If we can make that decision, where do we draw the lines? The intricacies of such legislation would dwarf the tax codes in complexity. To quote the great philosophers Mick and Keef, "It's a Bitch". 

 

[Nicole44 21969]

“When asked why James Jr. wasn’t rehabilitated for his mental health issues, Gonzales said, “We hope that people can be rehabilitated, but you have to get to court.”

Salazar added that James Jr. was discharged from the military for a domestic violence issue and that he had not been taking medication for his mental health issues lately.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/12/06/what-we-know-about-a-series-of-attacks-that-left-2-dead-in-ne-bexar-county-4-others-dead-in-austin/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=ksat12

I would never want anyone to live out their lives in a mental institution. Unfortunately, some people will not ever be able to function without some type of supervision/medication/therapy for the rest of their lives. That’s just the truth of it. People don’t want to accept that. They don’t have to be in a place for the rest of their lives but just like people with high blood pressure or other ailments they have to take their medication to have the kind of life that we would all like for them to have. In short, Shane’s life is important (though now his life will never be as a free person) but his life and right to live free is far less important in my mind than the lives of the 6 people he murdered to have a life at all. For a 12 month old to have her mother. For three children to have their father. For Shane’s sibling to have his/her parents. For the two people shot near Circle C to be alive. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have done and made appropriate measures to make sure Shane had a functional life and he should have been supervised. We see what he did without his medication. Incidents swarm escalate and he brutally murdered the only two people probably in this world that loved and cared for him. I am not at all saying that we throw someone like Shane have as normal a life as possible. But more resources should also have gone into keeping those 6 people from losing their lives. If it meant saving 6 lives and the only choice would be keeping someone like Shane under constant supervision and drug testing for the rest of his life to make sure he was taking his medication I’d make that choice every time. Shane couldn’t and will never be able to function without his medication and therapy and other things. He also may have been able to hold down a job and have a life of his own and possibly a family if he’d been MADE to take medication for his own good. It’s not as difficult a choice when you realize that without his meds his life and the lives of innocent people were at risk. He was never going to be “whole” or a have a life without them. I don’t see why people cannot accept this and demand that we do more to help people like Shane have as good a life as possible before another Shane goes on a rampage. And his life is effectively over now and I doubt he is really even all that cognizant of what he did and why he did it. And a 12 month old will live the rest of her life without her mother wondering why we didn’t stop Shane. Sad shit. And it’s difficult but not as difficult as looking into the eyes of the family members of victims and seeing how broken they are and seeing how we’ve robbed them of their lives too. 

[jimmyjazz 45212]

Did they reveal the names of the two victims in Circle C?  I just realized a close friend lives on that street.  I'm sure he's not involved, but it's still unsettling, and he's off the radar when he's at work so I can't ping him until tonight.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11571]

21 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

I go back to my thought that we will have to have an enormous shift in our American "ethos", if that is the correct word, our absolutism regarding "freedom". Land of the free. Home of the brave. All that shit. 

1) Remove all the guns? Too late even if we tried. Can you imagine the "revolution" if the government came to everyone's door and started collecting guns? That horse is already out of the barn. I think it would be logistically impossible. If possible, it would take generations. 

2) Stricter gun laws. We can't/don't enforce the one's we have now. Experience says laws don't do it. Do we put the seller in prison? A licensed seller who has passed all the tests and shown himself to be a good hobbyist?  We have a drummer on this board who might take offense. 

3) Keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. See my original post. It is difficult to impossible to 100% accurately diagnose a crazy person, and some crazy people come in and out of their illness. At what point do we say "Okay man, you've been psychotic three times and three's the limit. We gave you two chances, but no mas. Here's your straight jacket".  Or, "Fuck man! We missed that one! He killed people on his first psychotic episode! Oops!". Crazy people are an invisible group, in most cases. If not invisible, at least very difficult to see. And if we see them with 100% accuracy, at what point do we take away their freedom? Where is that line? Who gets to determine that line? Who gets the responsibility for enforcing that line?

4) In the deep dark recesses of my past, I spent 5 years working at "mental asylums", or "looney bins", or the "nut hut", whatever. They are not as horrible as the horror movies would have you believe, especially with the advent of more refined antipsychotic medications. Not as bad as you think, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live out my life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want my precious family member to live out their life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who made the decision to sentence a fellow human being to live out their life in one. Even if we spent half the national economy making mental hospitals into "resorts", I wouldn't want to live my life out in one. "Sir, here is your room at the Hilton on Waikiki Beach. Your dinner will be served at 6PM. You will not be allowed to leave the premises. Ever."

As I said above, this will take an enormous change in the fundamental beliefs we have about society, about the worth, and the price of freedom. Is my freedom from the anxiety of worrying about mass murderers equivalent to the freedom of a mentally ill person? If we can make that decision, where do we draw the lines? The intricacies of such legislation would dwarf the tax codes in complexity. To quote the great philosophers Mick and Keef, "It's a Bitch". 

 

i think guns themselves have become such a symbol of a lot of things -- freedom like you say plus a million other things.  as long as we keep doing this:

to put guns in such a weird elevated place, we will be in this intractable situation.  no one poses with their hammers. no one brags to their friends that they know the uses of different grit of sandpaper.  guns just hold this outsized fascination with the public and it makes a unique problem when trying to get a solution.

[Nicole44 21969]

14 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Did they reveal the names of the two victims in Circle C?  I just realized a close friend lives on that street.  I'm sure he's not involved, but it's still unsettling, and he's off the radar when he's at work so I can't ping him until tonight.

Not yet. For a couple of hours I was pretty worried because my best friend’s mother lives very near there. My friend recently lost her father and she has been going down to her moms house and staying with her a lot (she can work from home) because of that. Her mom is understandably grieving the loss of her husband. At any rate, been texting my friend and didn’t hear back for a few hours after it was revealed yesterday that the two people found in the house at Circle C were a mother and a daughter. At least she texted me back last night. She works late and is on call so I often don’t hear from her during the week. But for a bit there I was like oh shit. I understand from what she texted it was absolutely crazy there Tuesday night. 
 

Anyway, it was a mother and daughter but no names or ages have been reported. I’ve heard some rumors but looking less and less like the main one is true. I’ve also heard that the way Shane chose to murder his parents and then move the bodies is being described as very disturbing (sick af basically.) I do understand  that murder in and of itself is sick af. Just that when the reports came out of a “grisly” crime scene they weren’t exaggerating 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nicole44

[Not that Bob 733]

Interesting thought on the "weird elevated place" upon which we place guns. PS Blondo is rude.

Also interesting thoughts regarding the "right" to refuse medical treatment. We are very hesitant to require people to "follow medical advice." I have known a couple of people who died for refusing to take blood pressure medications. We are a complex species, and it seems we are too big for our britches. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20304]

3 hours ago, Pimphand said:

Nice job by the idiots at Texas Organizing Project getting this dude out of jail. It is obvious we either do not take mental illness seriously or know what to do about it but I think we can officially say creating a revolving door of trying to get inmates out of jail all the time is not working out.

 

If we imprisoned everybody the murder rate would probably go down.

[Nicole44 21969]

13 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

Interesting thought on the "weird elevated place" upon which we place guns. PS Blondo is rude.

Also interesting thoughts regarding the "right" to refuse medical treatment. We are very hesitant to require people to "follow medical advice." I have known a couple of people who died for refusing to take blood pressure medications. We are a complex species, and it seems we are too big for our britches. 

We are weird and we do have freedoms to an extent. If my mom doesn’t take her high blood pressure medication she will die. If Shane doesn’t take his meds well we saw what happened there. 6 people dead. Countless lives affected. I agree on the gun issue. With what people are saying. I am also saying Shane on his meds with proper supervision isn’t living with his parents at 34, unable to hold down a job, have a life and go do things we often take for granted. Shane off his meds now will never have a life. If we got a proper diagnosis for these people and put them under supervision they can have fairly good lives. Which is what all of us should want. That person doesn’t slaughter his parents and drive to Austin for some unknown reason with a gun(s) and slaughter more people. That person probably is living the best life he can. Probably? Or at least 6 people aren’t dead at any rate. And yes I realize they are dead because they were shot. He shot them because in his infinite wisdom stopped taking his medication. And because he access to guns which he never should have had access to use. That medication was actually better for him than not taking it. He had no life when he wasn’t taking the medication and he has no life now. And 6 people are dead. So he could have choices. That’s like asking a five year old what they’d like for dinner every night and letting them choose. 
Mentally ill people aren’t second class citizens. They have an illness that can only be treated with proper diagnosis, therapy and the proper dosage of medication if warranted. They can’t live their best lives without it. They can’t just magically get better without it. They aren’t going through a phase. It is something like high blood pressure that needs to be monitored. If that’s a loss of their freedom I guess we all have different definitions. Freedom to me means living the best life you can and if you need some help to do that it should be accepted as a normal thing like taking your high blood pressure medication. Without it your quality of life is absolute shit. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nicole44

[jimmyjazz 45212]

39 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Anyway, it was a mother and daughter 

OK, not my friend's family.  They have two sons.

I realize the odds were low but they seemingly get a whole lot higher when it's the same street.

[Nicole44 21969]

10 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

OK, not my friend's family.  They have two sons.

I realize the odds were low but they seemingly get a whole lot higher when it's the same street.

Yeah . And I know @Deejwas kinda joking when he posted about those two victims perhaps getting caught in the crossfire. We know Shane shot an officer multiple times and that officer and possibly others returned fire and obviously missed. So much lacking in this portion of the story. I get not releasing names until proper notifications had been made. But after murdering his parents in their home he was mainly shooting people on the street or outside. It’s odd he would enter a home and murder two people. I figure he needed a car but the articles said after he returned fire and shot the officer he fled in a car and while that chase was going on the officers entered the home (the backyard he was found in after a burglary call$ and found two victims deceased. Several articles said woman and daughter. Just a whole lot of nothing on this part of the story. Not saying the were caught in the crossfire or not but not a lot of details either way. On much of this. And yes I know they may have to go to trial and all that. So much we won’t get to know. 

[Beau Vine 53737]

2 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

We do this a lot. Throw the baby out with the bath water. We continually worry about the “slippery slope” something I have heard my whole GD life instead of taking a common sense approach to an issue.

Any time someone starts using the term "slippery slope," I immediately ignore them.  You use that term when you have no rational argument.  

[Nicole44 21969]

9 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Any time someone starts using the term "slippery slope," I immediately ignore them.  You use that term when you have no rational argument.  

And yet somehow that fear of the slope has created a lot of nonsense. And we are slipping off it because of “hypotheticals” instead of dealing with what actually is happening with a common sense approach. No we are worried about some future hypothetical. Totally agree. I am a law school grad but don’t practice. I’m just a lawyer of neighborhood. But I swear if I heard slippery slope or “widget” one more time…lol

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nicole44

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11571]

10 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Any time someone starts using the term "slippery slope," I immediately ignore them.  You use that term when you have no rational argument.  

unless you are arguing for banning inclined ice streets.

[Foosters 17638]

1 hour ago, Nicole44 said:

We are weird and we do have freedoms to an extent. If my mom doesn’t take her high blood pressure medication she will die. If Shane doesn’t take his meds well we saw what happened there. 6 people dead. Countless lives affected. I agree on the gun issue. With what people are saying. I am also saying Shane on his meds with proper supervision isn’t living with his parents at 34, unable to hold down a job, have a life and go do things we often take for granted. Shane off his meds now will never have a life. If we got a proper diagnosis for these people and put them under supervision they can have fairly good lives. Which is what all of us should want. That person doesn’t slaughter his parents and drive to Austin for some unknown reason with a gun(s) and slaughter more people. That person probably is living the best life he can. Probably? Or at least 6 people aren’t dead at any rate. And yes I realize they are dead because they were shot. He shot them because in his infinite wisdom stopped taking his medication. And because he access to guns which he never should have had access to use. That medication was actually better for him than not taking it. He had no life when he wasn’t taking the medication and he has no life now. And 6 people are dead. So he could have choices. That’s like asking a five year old what they’d like for dinner every night and letting them choose. 
Mentally ill people aren’t second class citizens. They have an illness that can only be treated with proper diagnosis, therapy and the proper dosage of medication if warranted. They can’t live their best lives without it. They can’t just magically get better without it. They aren’t going through a phase. It is something like high blood pressure that needs to be monitored. If that’s a loss of their freedom I guess we all have different definitions. Freedom to me means living the best life you can and if you need some help to do that it should be accepted as a normal thing like taking your high blood pressure medication. Without it your quality of life is absolute shit. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/09/20/1200479082/mental-health-courts-california-care-debate

Quote

f she hadn't been compelled to get care, Sweeney said, she wouldn't be alive today, back at work and reunited with her husband. It's why she supports California's new civil CARE Courts that will launch this fall in eight counties, including San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Orange, followed by the rest of the state in 2024.

Under the new system, family members and first responders can ask county judges to order people with psychotic illness into treatment, even if they are not unhoused or haven't committed a crime.

A judge will then determine if a person meets criteria for the program and may oversee a care agreement or compel a treatment plan. That treatment plan could even include involuntary commitment.

 

[texasdago 7465]

This whole thread is depressing... I'm going to focus on some of the brighter threads in Cloak Roo... oh, wait... nvm

[Nicole44 21969]

10 minutes ago, Foosters said:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/09/20/1200479082/mental-health-courts-california-care-debate

 

Thanks for sharing that. This quote is where I am at essentially (from the article you posted):

In Orange County, officials running these courts must achieve a delicate balance: To convince people to accept care without coercion, particularly when their illness causes them to believe they are not ill.

"We don't want to punish people," said Maria Hernandez, the presiding judge for Orange County Superior Court. "We want them to maintain their dignity."

______
Thats what we should all want for all of these people. The right diagnosis and treatment plan and some type of monitoring and supervision that is no more invasive than someone with a physical ailment like say diabetes has to monitor their blood sugar every single damn day. So some type of supervision. My former friend believes she is not ill. She drinks and does all sorts of other meds in addition to her prescribed medication for her verified bipolar disorder. She lives in the basement of her own house and barely interacts with her husband. But you cannot get her help. She’s fought everyone who has tried and from what I understand has been saying all manner of disturbing shit to the friends she does still have. It breaks my heart but I couldn’t enable that anymore. She lives out of state and would call thousands of times a week at bizarre hours with bizarre shit. I just couldn’t enable it after 15 years of it. No more. 
——-

anyway we better look at what California is doing and try as a country to implement it and as soon as possible. The rhetoric towards mental illness and those who suffer from it is taking hit after hit with these weekly incidents and the tide is turning. Which is depressing. But I also understand how mentally exhausting it is for the friends and loved ones of the mentally ill. It’s a constant battle and they have very little support. 

[Herbie Hancock 7275]

This whole thing is heart-breaking on so many levels...

There are some here that are heartbroken the cops aren't among the dead, and equally as happy that a funeral procession won't impact their morning commute. The internal strife must be excruciating. T's & P's to them

[elguapo 4555]

24 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There are some here that are heartbroken the cops aren't among the dead, and equally as happy that a funeral procession won't impact their morning commute. The internal strife must be excruciating. T's & P's to them

[MissingInAction 24432]

37 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There are some here that are heartbroken the cops aren't among the dead, and equally as happy that a funeral procession won't impact their morning commute. The internal strife must be excruciating. T's & P's to them

[Deej 76219]

1 hour ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There are some here that are heartbroken the cops aren't among the dead, and equally as happy that a funeral procession won't impact their morning commute. The internal strife must be excruciating. T's & P's to them

Thanks for you concern, officer. 

[Nicole44 21969]

6 minutes ago, Deej said:

Thanks for you concern, officer. 

 

[Neonmoon 38126]

4 hours ago, Not that Bob said:

I go back to my thought that we will have to have an enormous shift in our American "ethos", if that is the correct word, our absolutism regarding "freedom". Land of the free. Home of the brave. All that shit. 

1) Remove all the guns? Too late even if we tried. Can you imagine the "revolution" if the government came to everyone's door and started collecting guns? That horse is already out of the barn. I think it would be logistically impossible. If possible, it would take generations. 

2) Stricter gun laws. We can't/don't enforce the one's we have now. Experience says laws don't do it. Do we put the seller in prison? A licensed seller who has passed all the tests and shown himself to be a good hobbyist?  We have a drummer on this board who might take offense. 

3) Keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. See my original post. It is difficult to impossible to 100% accurately diagnose a crazy person, and some crazy people come in and out of their illness. At what point do we say "Okay man, you've been psychotic three times and three's the limit. We gave you two chances, but no mas. Here's your straight jacket".  Or, "Fuck man! We missed that one! He killed people on his first psychotic episode! Oops!". Crazy people are an invisible group, in most cases. If not invisible, at least very difficult to see. And if we see them with 100% accuracy, at what point do we take away their freedom? Where is that line? Who gets to determine that line? Who gets the responsibility for enforcing that line?

4) In the deep dark recesses of my past, I spent 5 years working at "mental asylums", or "looney bins", or the "nut hut", whatever. They are not as horrible as the horror movies would have you believe, especially with the advent of more refined antipsychotic medications. Not as bad as you think, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live out my life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want my precious family member to live out their life in one. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one who made the decision to sentence a fellow human being to live out their life in one. Even if we spent half the national economy making mental hospitals into "resorts", I wouldn't want to live my life out in one. "Sir, here is your room at the Hilton on Waikiki Beach. Your dinner will be served at 6PM. You will not be allowed to leave the premises. Ever."

As I said above, this will take an enormous change in the fundamental beliefs we have about society, about the worth, and the price of freedom. Is my freedom from the anxiety of worrying about mass murderers equivalent to the freedom of a mentally ill person? If we can make that decision, where do we draw the lines? The intricacies of such legislation would dwarf the tax codes in complexity. To quote the great philosophers Mick and Keef, "It's a Bitch". 

 

This isn’t rocket science. Numerous countries have done this. Pass laws. Require Licenses. Enforce regulations 

 

[Brisketexan 103657]

13 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This isn’t rocket science. Numerous countries have done this. Pass laws. Require Licenses. Enforce regulations 

 

Seriously.  I don't get how there's a constant refrain of "it just can't be done" when you can look at a dozen western democracies where....it's been done.  That's like saying "there's no way to build a flying machine" as you stand below the fucking flightpath of O'Hare.

[Guest]

It's a completely manmade problem. There can be a manmade solution.

[Biff Tannen 45228]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Seriously.  I don't get how there's a constant refrain of "it just can't be done" when you can look at a dozen western democracies where....it's been done.  That's like saying "there's no way to build a flying machine" as you stand below the fucking flightpath of O'Hare.

You know the answer here.  American.  Exceptionalism.

[Whitewater Horn 963]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

You know the answer here.  American.  Exceptionalism.

And the unhinged, hysterical shrieking of “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!!” anytime the serious discussion of common sense reforms regarding either access to firearms or the firearms themselves is raised. The inflexibility to even consider having the discussion is a sickness. 

[Nicole44 21969]

14 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

It's a completely manmade problem. There can be a manmade solution.

 

[jimmyjazz 45212]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Thanks for you concern, officer. 

[Not that Bob 733]

54 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This isn’t rocket science. Numerous countries have done this. Pass laws. Require Licenses. Enforce regulations 

 

I think that, again, ignores the elephant in the room. None of these shooters give a shit about laws, licenses, or regulations. Psychotic people are incapable of that type of thought. Even people who are not technically psychotic, just really pissed off mood disordered people, have no sense of self control. They are without impulse control. Unless you can catch them in a very narrow window of time you can not stop them.

I'd be interested to know what these other countries, who have it under control, have for psychiatric care. Serious question. I'm pretty fatalistic about it. I'm not a gun guy, so I don't care if we take them all away, but I just think that is treating the symptom. The disease is mental illness. Not frequently, but several times in my old mental health career, I was charged by a florid schizophrenic. I was lucky enough to have copious back up, but a raging schizophrenic will fuck you up. 

[jimmyjazz 45212]

7 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

I'd be interested to know what these other countries, who have it under control, have for psychiatric care. Serious question. I'm pretty fatalistic about it. I'm not a gun guy, so I don't care if we take them all away, but I just think that is treating the symptom. The disease is mental illness. Not frequently, but several times in my old mental health career, I was charged by a florid schizophrenic. I was lucky enough to have copious back up, but a raging schizophrenic will fuck you up. 

Nah.  The disease is gun fetishism.  I'm sure it was pretty unsettling to deal with an acute schizophrenic who would just as soon kill you as buy you coffee, but when they can get their hands on a semi-auto weapon and then kill 30 other people, we have a problem.  Not to sound flip, but you chose the profession.  Schoolkids and churchgoers and dance club patrons didn't choose anything other than to wake up and live their life that (last) day.

[wood 10966]

 

[Biff Tannen 45228]

43 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

None of these shooters give a shit about laws, licenses, or regulations.

Seeing as how most of them obtain their guns legally, maybe we should at least try.

[Brisketexan 103657]

1 hour ago, Not that Bob said:

I think that, again, ignores the elephant in the room. None of these shooters give a shit about laws, licenses, or regulations.

Yet, in other countries that have plenty of crazy people, but ALSO have.....laws, licenses, and regulations.....the numbers of gun deaths and gun homicides are orders of magnitude lower than ours.

It's not just intellectually lazy to say that "criminals don't care about laws so they don't make any difference," it's demonstrably false.  I mean, if your position was true, then we should get rid of literally every single law.  No speed limits, no laws against theft, assault, murder, rape, anything -- because bad people who would do those things won't follow those laws anyway.  Fortunately, we have these real-world laboratories called "pretty much every other western democracy" to test out the "do gun laws, restrictions, and regulations correlate to lower gun violence/deaths," and the evidence is pretty stark and strong -- they do.

[Nicole44 21969]

1 hour ago, wood said:

 

Still have not identified the victims at Circle C. Also they responded to concerns about the public not receiving an alert (essentially didn’t believe Shadylane and officer shot at HS were related):

Because this was not an active shooting event, we did not utilize the TX HB 103. This was a series of events which took place in several different locations across the city with various or unknown motives and no specific commonality.  It is not common practice for APD, or any other law enforcement agency, to issue any sort of alert for every shooting that happens in their jurisdiction with an unidentified shooter