South/Central Texas Multiple Homicides (6 dead, 9 shot) 12/5/23

[956 Worldwide 34020]

6 hours ago, Not that Bob said:

Interesting thought on the "weird elevated place" upon which we place guns. PS Blondo is rude.

Also interesting thoughts regarding the "right" to refuse medical treatment. We are very hesitant to require people to "follow medical advice." I have known a couple of people who died for refusing to take blood pressure medications. We are a complex species, and it seems we are too big for our britches. 

This is not the homeless thread, but it’s related. Every day, I walk by a man’s little tent area and have for five months.  He has two tents set up on a sidewalk in a high-traffic, high-pedestrian, shopping and student district. 
 

Here’s a list of activities I’ve seen— just me, personally, and not stories:

1. Burning things in a make-shift fire pit on the sidewalk.

2. Writing in his own semi-cuneiform script all over the sidewalk and walls.

3. Flashing his dick at people

4. Lunging at a woman and telling her he’s going to kill her.

5. Screaming at everyone he is going to kill them.

6. Shitting on the sidewalk.
 

All these conversations keep coming back to the idea of dignity and human treatment and I just have to ask myself every single time— where is the dignity all around? Where is the dignity for that man who is shitting on the sidewalk and screaming for hours in a tent compound, not to mention every single person who lives or works or just passes by.  Is this really a “choice” anyone makes to live that way?

I mean, gotdam, I’m not in favor of confining people to awful mental asylums out of sight but what if we confined people to nice mental asylums where they were treated with dignity and not left to shit on the streets and dickflash pedestrians? Would that be an option anyone discussed?  

[Deej 76219]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, gotdam, I’m not in favor of confining people to awful mental asylums out of sight but what if we confined people to nice mental asylums where they were treated with dignity and not left to shit on the streets and dickflash pedestrians? Would that be an option anyone discussed?  

If people are unable to properly care for themselves, or have family who will, this should be the option.

[Biff Tannen 45228]

11 minutes ago, Deej said:

If people are unable to properly care for themselves, or have family who will, this should be the option.

I believe they are called "wards of the state".  And we did this, inhumanely, for many years.  I wonder if it's just the horrific practices of the past that have stopped us from trying to create a better system?  I really don't know.

[Deej 76219]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

I believe they are called "wards of the state".  And we did this, inhumanely, for many years.  I wonder if it's just the horrific practices of the past that have stopped us from trying to create a better system?  I really don't know.

Doesn't mean we can't do a better, more humane job of it now. What's going on at this point isn't very humane. 

[Brisketexan 103657]

6 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I believe they are called "wards of the state".  And we did this, inhumanely, for many years.  I wonder if it's just the horrific practices of the past that have stopped us from trying to create a better system?  I really don't know.

 

3 minutes ago, Deej said:

Doesn't mean we can't do a better, more humane job of it now. What's going on at this point isn't very humane. 

If y'all think the reason we have no mental healthcare apparatus at all is because our leadership is worried about whether it would be humane.....I gotta a bridge to sell you.

"BOOTSTRAPS!  JUST DON'T BE CRAZY!"  There.  I just gave you our entire mental healthcare system.  Wait, need to add "if a mentally ill person is acting up, send some poorly trained cops over there to most likely shoot him."

Just toss our treatment of the mentally ill - or complete lack thereof - into a bin with all of the other horrors of the 21st Century American System working exactly as designed.  There's probably room on top of some of the bullet-riddled kids' bodies, it's a really big bin.

[Nicole44 21969]

We can start afresh but we have to actually CARE. Both sides use this issue and the homelessness issue like a political football.
 

one side: Hey let’s ring the dinner bell and bring all the homeless here without an infrastructure to support them. Great idea. Once enough people see their plight we’ll get funding for our “infrastructure” and convert hotels into homes and all that.
Other side is basically like fuck’em. They are crazy and lock up indefinitely.

So now we have crazy people shitting on the sidewalk not living their best lives without dignity shooting up and causing harm to themselves and others. And once they got here we don’t have the infrastructure and instead of people seeing the plight and feeling sympathy they saw the destruction and crazy and the harm to businesses and humans and avoided downtown and pretty much voted to have all their camps moved out.

Basically, a better solution would be education. Talk to cities that have made this work. Ignore the cities with rampant problems and do the opposite. Recognize what works and do that.
 

You have so many different groups within the homeless community. A lot of vets and they are the hardest to reach and often do not ask for help. Then you have mentally ill and drug abusers (could also be vets) and then you have housing challenged folks and finally a bunch of fucktards. If we already had a place to put these folks that need assistance and aren’t here to experience the “life” and set up programs for them, mental health, drug addiction and so forth and set them up in a program designed to help them prosper…

 

ah fuck it what am I talking about? It will never happen because common sense is basically gone. Or at least we don’t use it to solve societal problems. Having some experience working with the homeless I can say quite honestly that there are very successful programs and they are working in other places and can work here. One thing you can’t do however is continue to allow these communities to grow and do nothing. Because what we are doing now is not dignified. It sucks. Same with the mental health issue. 

Sometimes when all avenues have been exhausted the correct and difficult call may be institutionalization. But that’s  on a case by case basis where everything else has not worked and the person is incapable of caring for themselves and may be a threat to others. 
 

sighs smdh. 

[Deej 76219]

1 minute ago, Nicole44 said:

we have crazy people shitting on the sidewalk

New Surly motto?

[Nicole44 21969]

Just now, Deej said:

New Surly motto?

It will be aggy soon if they keep losing any more players to the portal. 👍🏻 

[Deej 76219]

Well, they can't shit on the sacred grass, but they can shovel it onto the Longhorn band. 

[Neonmoon 38126]

2 hours ago, Not that Bob said:

I think that, again, ignores the elephant in the room. None of these shooters give a shit about laws, licenses, or regulations. Psychotic people are incapable of that type of thought. Even people who are not technically psychotic, just really pissed off mood disordered people, have no sense of self control. They are without impulse control. Unless you can catch them in a very narrow window of time you can not stop them.

I'd be interested to know what these other countries, who have it under control, have for psychiatric care. Serious question. I'm pretty fatalistic about it. I'm not a gun guy, so I don't care if we take them all away, but I just think that is treating the symptom. The disease is mental illness. Not frequently, but several times in my old mental health career, I was charged by a florid schizophrenic. I was lucky enough to have copious back up, but a raging schizophrenic will fuck you up. 

There is the same amount of mental illness in every country. It’s the guns. It’s always been the guns. I don’t why everyone can’t just face this so o,e fact when it’s beating everyone over the head continuously. Other counties have got rid of guns and lowered gun violence. There is oodles of evidence. 

[Horn_Spanker 524]

Suspicious white Ford pickup just now in front of Kiker Elementary.   License plate  AK3 0957.  Did not pick up a kid, pulled up behind my wife, stayed in truck and began to follow her as she pulled away.  On her tail until Slaughter and Manchaca whereas she pulled over to loose him.

[wood 10966]

nm. Hoping what I was told is not true. Don't wanna spread a story without more info.

Edited December 9, 2023 by wood

[Nicole44 21969]

Victims found shot dead in house near Circle C identified:

Catherine Short, 56, and Lauren Short, 30, were allegedly shot and killed by suspect Shane James, 34, during a home burglary at around 6:48 p.m. in the 5300 block of Austral Loop in Southwest Austin.

Mother and daughter. 

 

[fattyflattie 4633]

23 hours ago, F250 said:

fattyflattie stance which my ex-MIL just repeats.

My ex-MIL basically said that the Uvalde shooter was crazy and it isn't the gun's fault. I replied, "Yeah, he was crazy and crazy people shouldn't be able to buy guns". She got it and agreed but then said "I am going to ask John about this." Basically, she realized we need stricter guns laws but then is asking fattyflattie for advice. LOL

 

 

You can @ me.   Also, VERY lazy post. 

[F250 28544]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

You can @ me.   Also, VERY lazy post. 

Why? I wasn't talking to you.

[fattyflattie 4633]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

Why? I wasn't talking to you.

Then keep my name out of your cockholster?

[F250 28544]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

Then keep my name out of your cockholster?

[GringoSalado 1639]

8 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Nah.  The disease is gun fetishism.

If this were true wouldn't the body count would be much, much, much higher? Probably 50m men in this country have a gun fetish, but 99.99% of them aren't homicidal maniacs. I have not read that the killer had a gun fetish, only a bunch of evidence that he was violent and mentally ill.

 

I will probably regret even bothering to engage

 

 

[Nicole44 21969]

More on the misdemeanor incident involving his family:

Law enforcement officials this week described the incident, which resulted in James being arrested on three charges of misdemeanor family violence, as James scratching and striking his parents and his sibling.

James shoved his father several times and scratched his neck, and his mother fell and hit her head after James pushed her husband into her, a BCSO incident report shows.

She had a “quarter size knot” on the back of her head, the report shows.

James pushed his sibling twice, causing her to fall and injure her shoulder, according to the report.

All three family members told deputies they wanted to press charges against James, the report states.

James was first ordered not to have contact with the three people, charging paperwork obtained by KSAT Investigates shows.

The order, however, was amended three weeks later to state that he was to have no harmful or injurious contact with them, the records show.

———————-

cops were called to his parents’ house 14 times after Shane moved in with them in 2016. The last known incident was 4 months ago in August when he had an episode and his parents called the police and he barricaded himself in his room. No idea what his diagnosis was or what he was supposed to have been taking. I do know this shows me at least that family/caregivers cannot “handle” this on their own if a person isn’t on a regimen not taking their meds.

I saw the story about that ND senator’s son today. He has some mental illness with delusions and his brother had passed away in 2018 and he starts saying he wants to go see his dead brother. Mom panics and drives him to the hospital but somehow he gets control of the car and goes on a high speed chase that resulted in an officer’s death. Cramer is the last name of the senator. Their son had been dealing with this a long time. The other brother died from alcoholism. Anyway, another story yet again that shows you can’t just handle or reason with someone when they are having an episode. The episodes themselves should lead to some type of care over a period of days to get a diagnosis and a regimen that is then closely monitored and supervised. It sucks. I don’t want to CR this up by mentioning the senator or his politics. Just an example again of parents thinking they can handle this shit at home and now their son has basically killed a cop. 

[jimmyjazz 45213]

17 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

If this were true wouldn't the body count would be much, much, much higher? Probably 50m men in this country have a gun fetish, but 99.99% of them aren't homicidal maniacs. I have not read that the killer had a gun fetish, only a bunch of evidence that he was violent and mentally ill.

 

I will probably regret even bothering to engage

The gun fetishists simply won't allow any meaningful change to happen.  It doesn't mean they're all homicidal maniacs.  They enable the homicidal maniacs.

[GringoSalado 1639]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The gun fetishists simply won't allow any meaningful change to happen.  It doesn't mean they're all homicidal maniacs.  They enable the homicidal maniacs.

You assume this change you want will be positive. Gun control is enforced with guns, after all, and the type of gun confiscation that would put a serious dent in gun homicides is going to have its own body count and very sizeable incarceration component, things I thought we didn't favor.

 

I may regret this edit to point out that bail/sentencing reform and mental health reform also enable the homicidal maniacs, but I'm not going to rush to eliminate those things because of the unintended consequences.

Edited December 8, 2023 by GringoSalado

[jimmyjazz 45213]

3 minutes ago, GringoSalado said:

You assume this change you want will be positive. Gun control is enforced with guns, after all, and the type of gun confiscation that would put a serious dent in gun homicides is going to have its own body count and very sizeable incarceration component, things I thought we didn't favor.

Well, we have evidence that certain more restrictive levels of gun control were effective in reducing mass shootings, and not too long ago, so I reject your premise.

[GringoSalado 1639]

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, we have evidence that certain more restrictive levels of gun control were effective in reducing mass shootings, and not too long ago, so I reject your premise.

That evidence elides the unintended consequences, which you also ignore. So you don't seem overly concerned with gun deaths depending on the circumstances, and I do indeed regret engaging in good faith here.

 

In that vein then I add the obligatory "we should restrict fentanyl, which is more deadly."

Edited December 8, 2023 by GringoSalado

[jimmyjazz 45213]

1 minute ago, GringoSalado said:

That evidence elides the unintended consequences, which you also ignore. So you don't seem overly concerned with gun deaths depending on the circumstances, and I do indeed regret engaging in good faith here.

Oh, fuck off.  I'm actually discussing this with you, but no more.

[F250 28544]

Just now, GringoSalado said:

and I do indeed regret engaging in good faith here.

[GringoSalado 1639]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Oh, fuck off.  I'm actually discussing this with you, but no more.

 

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

Sorry about that.

[InkaUtexas 24933]

Get a room please.

[Nicole44 21969]

7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Get a room please.

 

[wood 10966]

It's worth noting imho what else is on that trail where James shot the cyclist - Bowie High School. 

[Updawg 2245]

It's worth noting imho what else is on that trail where James shot the cyclist - Bowie High School. 

Yeah. Luckily he didn’t head that way. We were at a choir concert when it all went down. There were a lot of people on campus at that time for various things

They also have a pretty big farm on campus with lots of kids taking care of their animals.

Could have been terrible

[Nicole44 21969]

I am not sure what his “plan” was. No clue what he did between noon and 5:00 pm. But I mean we are dealing with someone who is seriously disturbed/ill. So maybe he didn’t have a plan. I know he had a sister that he was abusive to/along with his parents and I am sure if he could have Tuesday he would have gone after her as well. Has he been charged with all 6 murders yet? Or just two in Austin and two in San Antonio. I know SA would really like to try him first.
 

I’ve read several articles about how “brutal/grisly” the crime scene was  and “no one should ever die like that” comments from law enforcement regarding the murder of his parents.

 And I understand why San Antonio would like to try him first even though Austin has him. Their expectation is that he never be let out again.

Reading in between the lines and from a few comments on “X” or whatever that the way he killed his parents was highly disturbing. So I am guessing it was more than just shooting them. 

[Samson's Wig 3166]

On 12/6/2023 at 6:31 PM, Not that Bob said:

We fight about guns and cops but ignore the elephant in the room. The only way to stop this, or at least slow it down, is to incarcerate people who we don't want to incarcerate. We don't want to lock up our sons who we love. We took them to soccer games. Helped them with homework. Taught them to sing The Eyes of Texas. They were the joy of our lives, but at about age 19-23, if they are predisposed, we start to see the signs of mental illness. "Not my beautiful boy!" we tell ourselves. If we can get them into treatment they may improve..."See, I told you he is a good boy", but the treatment, likely medication, causes side effects. He loses the "high" his cycles gave him. He can't get a boner. He stops the medication and probably all treatment. We can't stand the thought of locking him up...for a long time...possibly years...maybe forever.

We Americans, seemingly, would rather see mass shootings than face the thought that some people cannot tolerate the freedom that we hold so dear. We can't stand the thought that we might have to do that to another person. Do we have that right? Do we have the right not to? If  we had forced treatment and restriction of freedom, these people would be alive. Those kids in Uvalde would be alive. But do we have that right? It is an unanswerable question.   

We see the warning signs, again and again, but we can't stand to restrict their freedom, possibly forever. We will have to fundamentally change the ethos of this country if we are going to stop this. I don't think that we can. I don't know that we should. 

I think you're touching on the heart of the situation, but I can't entirely agree with your conclusion.  As the parent of a mentally ill young man, I can tell you firsthand that it's not as simple as coming up with a system for locking up people with problems or red flags.  As we did in the past, we would sweep up way too many harmless people and separate them from their families, making things much worse for those individuals while doing nothing to protect the public.   If we can find a way to determine who is a threat and who is not accurately, perhaps it could work, but that's not how these things ever work.  Legislation will be too broadly drafted (as it always is), and sick kids will be placed into terrible environments in which they don't belong.  It has been a long-held notion in this nation that one is innocent until proven guilty, that we would prefer a guilty person go free than lock up an innocent one.  I have always believed strongly in this and still do, especially when we're talking about people with mental illness.

The answer is not just to start locking up sick people, although we need to start treating mental illness seriously in this country.  If you're not wealthy, your kids will have difficulty getting meaningful treatment.   That's a place we can start right there.   Mental healthcare reform.  Force the fucking insurance assholes to cover mental health services and require mental health providers to accept insurance for payment.  We're completely broken as a nation in this area, but we could make a significant difference with relatively simple legislation.  Acts like the one this week can be better prevented not by locking people up but by making treatment available in the first fucking place.   The other thing that would do more to stop this crap than anything else, but won't happen because Americans are dumber than a bag of rocks/hammers/dildos, is to get rid of fucking guns.  All of them.  Now.   But as Brisket has mentioned repeatedly, we have the country we want.  What we want is to divert attention from the real problem by demonizing mentally ill people because a large segment of our population is struggling with an inferiority complex and feels better being surrounded by weapons.  I think these discussions routinely focus on the wrong mental health issues, personally.  Obsessive behavior around guns is the more significant mental health problem, but it's not ever discussed at all. 

A bunch of patriots think an America utterly beholden to the insurance and gun lobbies is the best version of America.  And who do you think loves the more recent narrative regarding mental illness?  Another large industry with significant lobbying power, perhaps?  It's all fucking bizarre and should be shameful to anyone who truly believes in the notions that this nation were founded upon.  King George, thy name is now industry.

[Goredho 17181]

13 hours ago, GringoSalado said:

That evidence elides the unintended consequences, which you also ignore. So you don't seem overly concerned with gun deaths depending on the circumstances, and I do indeed regret engaging in good faith here.

 

In that vein then I add the obligatory "we should restrict fentanyl, which is more deadly."

There’s a whole lot of room between “we should ban all guns” and “we shouldn’t have any gun restrictions whatsoever” that should be able to be explored to “keep mentally ill people with a track record of violence from owning guns.”

But not in this cuntry.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Goredho

[wood 10966]

1 hour ago, Nicole44 said:

I am not sure what his “plan” was.

I have a pretty good idea what it was. I'm guessing it'll all come out in due time.

[Nicole44 21969]

46 minutes ago, wood said:

I have a pretty good idea what it was. I'm guessing it'll all come out in due time.

He must have been thwarted a lot. I guess. I have no doubt he was on some “mission.” In his mind. But I guess if it was to kill a bunch of minorities and he was racist or wanted to kill a bunch of students in general, I still think in his particular case he’s just plain fucking nuts.
 

And because his parents thought they could “handle” him they are dead. Four additional people are dead. Smdh. I get it. They put a roof over his head. He wasn’t on the streets. But damn. When someone is having as many episodes as he did, 14 that we know of where cops were called (which means there are probably a ton of episodes where cops weren’t involved) since 2016 at his parent’s house. At some point, institutionalization is appropriate UNTIL he can be stabilized and be on a strict supervised regimen. Letting people just be ill and not take their meds and not have a life isn’t a solution. Some cases may require permanent institutionalization but that should be last resort/very rare. I do know if violence is a component of a person’s episodes it can’t be ignored. It has to be addressed. And the person has to be supervised. Somehow. 
 

I still wonder/worry what he was doing in the hours between the first shootings in Austin and the second shootings. That’s a fairly long time. like basically four plus hours. If he was planning to kill a bunch of people he somehow abandoned that? Because he then shot a cyclist and then murdered a woman and her daughter in their home. Just odd af. why drive all the way here? I mean he was right near UT campus for quite a bit…I know I am not meant to understand what his reason/purpose for all this was but it’s just odd to come here and do what he did if he had a bigger plan. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nicole44
If he wanted to kill students/ or people of color (we don’t know this) why not stay in San Antonio? Same opportunities there as there would be in Austin. Why drive all the way here? He likely ran out of gas hence the need to possibly still cars.

[Nicole44 21969]

Cool cool cool… 

More on the victims near Circle C and the circumstances around their murder. Mother and her special needs daughter. Jesus. Heartbreaking. 💔 
 

An arrest affidavit for his final act of violence on Austral Loop in the Circle C area revealed he broke into a residence, where Katherine Short, 56, and her special needs daughter, Lauren Short, 30, were present. Both victims suffered fatal gunshot wounds.

An Austin Police Department detective responded to a burglary call at the address after the caller said a live feed of his surveillance system showed a man breaking into his home. When the detective arrived he saw James trying to flee through the backyard, who then opened fire on the detective, hitting him multiple times, court documents said. James then stole a vehicle from the home, leading to a high-speed chase that ended with his arrest after a crash at SH 45 and FM 1826.

Recovered from James at the time of his arrest was a .45 caliber pistol and ammunition matching the spent cartridge cases found at the crime scene. A review of the surveillance footage from the home showed a man holding a handgun and kicking down the back door.

————-

I also included a picture below of Sabrina Rahman who was shot while walking with her 12 month old daughter. Her handyman Emmanuel Pop Ba was shot getting into his vehicle at the same time. Most articles suggest she pushed her baby’s stroller out of the way of fire and ran to Pop’s aid and was also shot. It is not known if Shane stole his vehicle. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nicole44

[PantsTent 2002]

32 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Cool cool cool… 

More on the victims near Circle C and the circumstances around their murder. Mother and her special needs daughter. Jesus. Heartbreaking. 💔 
 

An arrest affidavit for his final act of violence on Austral Loop in the Circle C area revealed he broke into a residence, where Katherine Short, 56, and her special needs daughter, Lauren Short, 30, were present. Both victims suffered fatal gunshot wounds.

An Austin Police Department detective responded to a burglary call at the address after the caller said a live feed of his surveillance system showed a man breaking into his home. When the detective arrived he saw James trying to flee through the backyard, who then opened fire on the detective, hitting him multiple times, court documents said. James then stole a vehicle from the home, leading to a high-speed chase that ended with his arrest after a crash at SH 45 and FM 1826.

Recovered from James at the time of his arrest was a .45 caliber pistol and ammunition matching the spent cartridge cases found at the crime scene. A review of the surveillance footage from the home showed a man holding a handgun and kicking down the back door.

————-

I also included a picture below of Sabrina Rahman who was shot while walking with her 12 month old daughter. Her handyman Emmanuel Pop Ba was shot getting into his vehicle at the same time. Most articles suggest she pushed her baby’s stroller out of the way of fire and ran to Pop’s aid and was also shot. It is not known if Shane stole his vehicle. 

 

Says a man made the call.  Was he there and not shot or saw it on camera remotely?  Talk about a hopeless situation either way.

 

[Nicole44 21969]

1 minute ago, PantsTent said:

 

Says a man made the call.  Was he there and not shot or saw it on camera remotely?  Talk about a hopeless situation either way.

 

Rumors I heard was the man was at work or something and he was checking on his wife and daughter or got an alert that someone was at the door and was able to see Shane breaking in and he called police. They arrived fairly quickly but Shane already had shot his wife and daughter before they arrived. 

[royiv 9045]

30 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Rumors I heard was the man was at work or something and he was checking on his wife and daughter or got an alert that someone was at the door and was able to see Shane breaking in and he called police. They arrived fairly quickly but Shane already had shot his wife and daughter before they arrived. 

Nightmare fuel to watch the person who is about to kill your wife and daughter kick down the door to your home knowing there's nothing you can do to help at that point. That poor guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life.

[Nicole44 21969]

13 minutes ago, royiv said:

Nightmare fuel to watch the person who is about to kill your wife and daughter kick down the door to your home knowing there's nothing you can do to help at that point. That poor guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life.

Moments without hope. I cannot imagine feeling that helpless and knowing there is nothing you can do. This whole story sucks. 

[Not that Bob 733]

10 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

I think you're touching on the heart of the situation, but I can't entirely agree with your conclusion.  As the parent of a mentally ill young man, I can tell you firsthand that it's not as simple as coming up with a system for locking up people with problems or red flags.  As we did in the past, we would sweep up way too many harmless people and separate them from their families, making things much worse for those individuals while doing nothing to protect the public.   If we can find a way to determine who is a threat and who is not accurately, perhaps it could work, but that's not how these things ever work.  Legislation will be too broadly drafted (as it always is), and sick kids will be placed into terrible environments in which they don't belong.  It has been a long-held notion in this nation that one is innocent until proven guilty, that we would prefer a guilty person go free than lock up an innocent one.  I have always believed strongly in this and still do, especially when we're talking about people with mental illness.

The answer is not just to start locking up sick people, although we need to start treating mental illness seriously in this country.  If you're not wealthy, your kids will have difficulty getting meaningful treatment.   That's a place we can start right there.   Mental healthcare reform.  Force the fucking insurance assholes to cover mental health services and require mental health providers to accept insurance for payment.  We're completely broken as a nation in this area, but we could make a significant difference with relatively simple legislation.  Acts like the one this week can be better prevented not by locking people up but by making treatment available in the first fucking place.   The other thing that would do more to stop this crap than anything else, but won't happen because Americans are dumber than a bag of rocks/hammers/dildos, is to get rid of fucking guns.  All of them.  Now.   But as Brisket has mentioned repeatedly, we have the country we want.  What we want is to divert attention from the real problem by demonizing mentally ill people because a large segment of our population is struggling with an inferiority complex and feels better being surrounded by weapons.  I think these discussions routinely focus on the wrong mental health issues, personally.  Obsessive behavior around guns is the more significant mental health problem, but it's not ever discussed at all. 

A bunch of patriots think an America utterly beholden to the insurance and gun lobbies is the best version of America.  And who do you think loves the more recent narrative regarding mental illness?  Another large industry with significant lobbying power, perhaps?  It's all fucking bizarre and should be shameful to anyone who truly believes in the notions that this nation were founded upon.  King George, thy name is now industry.

Sorry if my post sounded like I wanted to "lock 'em all up". That's not what I intended at all. I only wanted to point out that the problem is multifactorial and difficult to impossible to resolve. No one action is going to get us out of this mess. I absolutely agree with your statements regarding changes that need to be made.

[chainsaw 9668]

8 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

Letting people just be ill and not take their meds and not have a life isn’t a solution

This.

[Beau Vine 53737]

God dammit.

[Brisketexan 103657]

This.

Yet it is. It’s the exact solution we’ve chosen. And the super fun thing is that the hard left and right agree on it. America, what a country!

[CleverNickname 1281]

My brother is likely homeless in Austin right now. Not totally sure... sometimes my mother gives him money or pays for an extended stay motel. He is mentally ill (no diagnosis but probably bipolar or schizoid), a drug user, and did 11 years in prison. He had a condo my parents bought him  in the 90s. He sold it 3 years ago without telling us, and has pretty much spent down the 90k proceeds (it was a dump). 

My solution/theory: What this country (and Austin) needs are cheap cinder block single room occupies like the tenements that existed in NYC in the early 20th century. If the rent was ~600 and we just needed to give him money for rent and food, I could swing it on his behalf. I cannot swing $2.5k/mo to keep a roof over his head. He is too obnoxious to live with me or my mom or really any roommate. I'm tempted to find a shack or rv in the country to lease, but he has no car. I could probably convince my mom to buy him a wagon or van or whatever, but a decent one is like $20k and he has no license. He also refuses my free phone. 

Anyway. It sucks. It is very hard to help some people, especially those who don't really want help.

[chainsaw 9668]

23 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet it is. It’s the exact solution we’ve chosen. And the super fun thing is that the hard left and right agree on it. America, what a country!

The thing is we have no meaningful enforcement of this. The "meds or involuntary commitment" for most "meds and involuntary commitment" for some solution is intended to keep people safe, but too many people escape this system due to people asleep at the wheel or in the case of this guy a family unwilling to accept a harsh truth and more than willing to gamble with their own safety and that of their community. People who enable these means for circumventing the system should be severely penalized.

[Nicole44 21969]

I look at mental illness as something like diabetes or high blood pressure that you absolutely must monitor and take medication to LIVE.
 

Without treatment and meds mentally ill people cannot live the kind of life many of us enjoy (despite our own problems) and take for granted. I have friends dealing with this or dealing with family members with this. Some have the ability like Shane’s family to keep them at home. They think because they put a roof over their heads and if they just provide enough love and support their son/daughter will eventually become self sufficient and be able to care for themselves and have some type of meaningful life. That’s a fallacy.

It’s meant with all the right intentions. But if their son/daughter after years of having a roof over their head, a bed, contact with loved ones, good meals cannot still provide for themselves you have to look at the real issue. It’s allowing them to regulate and manage their own illness that tells them that they aren’t sick. They don’t need the medication or they don’t like how it makes them feel (much can be done on this point) so they self medicate with drugs and alcohol. People just see their addiction and not the root cause of it—they are mentally ill and without a proper diagnosis and treatment that is supervised their lives will continue to deteriorate and they will continue to suffer until something worse happens.

I would love if there were places where people could go, stay for a period of months until they are on a regimen and they can get their dosage right and then once they are thriving put them in an outpatient program where like a parolee they are monitored (just not with the criminal undertones.) I realize you cannot force someone to swallow pills and make them see that without those pills they are as SOL as someone with high blood pressure or diabetes trying to “wing” it on their own. They can’t do it without treatment. No amount of love and support can fix it. You aren’t dealing with the whole person. Otherwise it’s just walking on eggshells until something worse happens to them or someone else.

I don’t see putting someone on the regimen o described as taking their freedom away—I see it is giving them freedom and a chance at life. The choices they make without treatment aren’t choices. It’s not true freedom. Yes they have choices but their illness is making the choices. wounds of the mind are the most difficult to treat and for their caretakers it is mentally and physically exhausting to deal with. It’s depressing. And we will see more and more incidents continue to pile up until we see them as someone with a medical issue that needs to be addressed.

In Shane’s case, he had violent episodes. Police were called to his family’s home 14 times since he lived with them. He was physically violent with his sister mom and father. I can’t imagine how many total incidents there were where they didn’t call police. The sheriff in San Antonio said he had not been taking his medication for some time. They thought, I am sure, his dad particularly being retired military that they could help him if they just kept him at home. I have no doubt they loved him and tried their hardest to insure he had a life. There is nothing wrong with taking someone in and trying your hardest and I am sure their home life since 2016 was emotionally, physically and mentally exhausting and it should not have to be that way. We should demand better for people like Shane and people who care for people like Shane.

The only solution is proper diagnosis and supervision. I wish it could be another way but if these individuals could do it on their own their way they’d be doing it. They can’t and they aren’t and years are piling up with them living no better life than if they were in jail or institutionalized. They are held prisoners by a mental illness that tells them they aren’t sick and don’t need medication. A disease that lies to them. Loving them through it while wonderful will not give them a life they could have. And that’s a hard truth. My heart goes out to everyone dealing with this. 
 

i lost my 35 year old cousin to suicide last March. He was dealing with alcohol addiction and we believe he may have been schizophrenic on some level. He drank the last few years of his life away. Help was offered many many times. He continued to decline. Over 18 they can check out of whatever place you put them in. People have to see this is the only way to help them. I see not putting them in a program as a path that leads to worse things. I haven’t seen anyone magically get better. I’ve seen them fall apart and destroy everything around them. All because we think we are taking their freedom from them by initially forcing them to be on a regimen which will not only save their lives but will help them to actually have lives and live them. If freedom is whatever Shane was doing with the last 7 years of his life, being physically abusive and ranting and raving and unable to hold down a job or have a life like many of his peers—don’t sign me up for that. That’s not freedom. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nicole44

[texasdago 7465]

1 hour ago, CleverNickname said:

My brother is likely homeless in Austin right now. Not totally sure... sometimes my mother gives him money or pays for an extended stay motel. He is mentally ill (no diagnosis but probably bipolar or schizoid), a drug user, and did 11 years in prison. He had a condo my parents bought him  in the 90s. He sold it 3 years ago without telling us, and has pretty much spent down the 90k proceeds (it was a dump). 

My solution/theory: What this country (and Austin) needs are cheap cinder block single room occupies like the tenements that existed in NYC in the early 20th century. If the rent was ~600 and we just needed to give him money for rent and food, I could swing it on his behalf. I cannot swing $2.5k/mo to keep a roof over his head. He is too obnoxious to live with me or my mom or really any roommate. I'm tempted to find a shack or rv in the country to lease, but he has no car. I could probably convince my mom to buy him a wagon or van or whatever, but a decent one is like $20k and he has no license. He also refuses my free phone. 

Anyway. It sucks. It is very hard to help some people, especially those who don't really want help.

Hey man, I just want you to know I'm sorry to hear this and I hurt for you.  That really sucks. 

[Gatorubet 29791]

This is not the homeless thread, but it’s related. Every day, I walk by a man’s little tent area and have for five months.  He has two tents set up on a sidewalk in a high-traffic, high-pedestrian, shopping and student district. 
 
Here’s a list of activities I’ve seen— just me, personally, and not stories:
1. Burning things in a make-shift fire pit on the sidewalk.
2. Writing in his own semi-cuneiform script all over the sidewalk and walls.
3. Flashing his dick at people
4. Lunging at a woman and telling her he’s going to kill her.
5. Screaming at everyone he is going to kill them.
6. Shitting on the sidewalk.
 
All these conversations keep coming back to the idea of dignity and human treatment and I just have to ask myself every single time— where is the dignity all around? Where is the dignity for that man who is shitting on the sidewalk and screaming for hours in a tent compound, not to mention every single person who lives or works or just passes by.  Is this really a “choice” anyone makes to live that way?
I mean, gotdam, I’m not in favor of confining people to awful mental asylums out of sight but what if we confined people to nice mental asylums where they were treated with dignity and not left to shit on the streets and dickflash pedestrians? Would that be an option anyone discussed?  

GQP: “ Why does he have two tents? Someone else could have that other tent.  You can’t be selfish and ask for help.”
 
Surly: “ I bet it’s a sex tent…”

[Brisketexan 103657]

I look at mental illness as something like diabetes or high blood pressure that you absolutely must monitor and take medication to LIVE.
 
Without treatment and meds mentally ill people cannot live the kind of life many of us enjoy (despite our own problems) and take for granted. I have friends dealing with this or dealing with family members with this. Some have the ability like Shane’s family to keep them at home. They think because they put a roof over their heads and if they just provide enough love and support their son/daughter will eventually become self sufficient and be able to care for themselves and have some type of meaningful life. That’s a fallacy.
It’s meant with all the right intentions. But if their son/daughter after years of having a roof over their head, a bed, contact with loved ones, good meals cannot still provide for themselves you have to look at the real issue. It’s allowing them to regulate and manage their own illness that tells them that they aren’t sick. They don’t need the medication or they don’t like how it makes them feel (much can be done on this point) so they self medicate with drugs and alcohol. People just see their addiction and not the root cause of it—they are mentally ill and without a proper diagnosis and treatment that is supervised their lives will continue to deteriorate and they will continue to suffer until something worse happens.
I would love if there were places where people could go, stay for a period of months until they are on a regimen and they can get their dosage right and then once they are thriving put them in an outpatient program where like a parolee they are monitored (just not with the criminal undertones.) I realize you cannot force someone to swallow pills and make them see that without those pills they are as SOL as someone with high blood pressure or diabetes trying to “wing” it on their own. They can’t do it without treatment. No amount of love and support can fix it. You aren’t dealing with the whole person. Otherwise it’s just walking on eggshells until something worse happens to them or someone else.
I don’t see putting someone on the regimen o described as taking their freedom away—I see it is giving them freedom and a chance at life. The choices they make without treatment aren’t choices. It’s not true freedom. Yes they have choices but their illness is making the choices. wounds of the mind are the most difficult to treat and for their caretakers it is mentally and physically exhausting to deal with. It’s depressing. And we will see more and more incidents continue to pile up until we see them as someone with a medical issue that needs to be addressed.
In Shane’s case, he had violent episodes. Police were called to his family’s home 14 times since he lived with them. He was physically violent with his sister mom and father. I can’t imagine how many total incidents there were where they didn’t call police. The sheriff in San Antonio said he had not been taking his medication for some time. They thought, I am sure, his dad particularly being retired military that they could help him if they just kept him at home. I have no doubt they loved him and tried their hardest to insure he had a life. There is nothing wrong with taking someone in and trying your hardest and I am sure their home life since 2016 was emotionally, physically and mentally exhausting and it should not have to be that way. We should demand better for people like Shane and people who care for people like Shane.
The only solution is proper diagnosis and supervision. I wish it could be another way but if these individuals could do it on their own their way they’d be doing it. They can’t and they aren’t and years are piling up with them living no better life than if they were in jail or institutionalized. They are held prisoners by a mental illness that tells them they aren’t sick and don’t need medication. A disease that lies to them. Loving them through it while wonderful will not give them a life they could have. And that’s a hard truth. My heart goes out to everyone dealing with this. 
 
i lost my 35 year old cousin to suicide last March. He was dealing with alcohol addiction and we believe he may have been schizophrenic on some level. He drank the last few years of his life away. Help was offered many many times. He continued to decline. Over 18 they can check out of whatever place you put them in. People have to see this is the only way to help them. I see not putting them in a program as a path that leads to worse things. I haven’t seen anyone magically get better. I’ve seen them fall apart and destroy everything around them. All because we think we are taking their freedom from them by initially forcing them to be on a regimen which will not only save their lives but will help them to actually have lives and live them. If freedom is whatever Shane was doing with the last 7 years of his life, being physically abusive and ranting and raving and unable to hold down a job or have a life like many of his peers—don’t sign me up for that. That’s not freedom. 

Also…to bring it back to being germane to this thread…we COULD, at a bare minimum, make it so it’s not easier for them to arm themselves than it is to obtain decent medical care. Just spitballing here.