Almost Got Scammed - Legal Questions

[Bevo 13609]

My wife and I serendipitously stopped ourselves from being scammed. My wife called to pay our sewer bill on land we own in the Rockies and the lady stated that we didn't need to pay anything until closing. Well, we weren't selling our land. Today, we called the title company and were able to stop the transaction which had a closing date of the end of January. Then, we called the police who were nice but not very helpful. I did a little digging and the number of the scammer looks like it's a T-Mobile number from Chula Vista - one site gave a name that looks to be a surname from Ghana.

Anyway, it looks like the scam is pretty easy. They don't need to actually steal my identity, they just need basic information that is available with online tax records. They find a real estate professional to actually list the property on the MLS site. And then the scammers do all their work via email and docusign.

How does anyone keep this from being a continuous problem? How can I stop it in the future? If it gets past me, who can I go after legally? The title company and the real estate agent obviously should have done a much better job of making sure the seller of the property was the owner. And there is no way to know if either was in on the scam. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

Pretty scary that someone could steal a half million dollars that easily. Opinions?

[Chewbacca 7788]

Where is the land?

That's scary, for sure. Would be a fucking mess to clean up.

[CooterBrown 18038]

Would putting the land in a trust at least make the scam much more difficult to pull off?

[Gil Bang 26069]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

My wife and I serendipitously stopped ourselves from being scammed. My wife called to pay our sewer bill on land we own in the Rockies and the lady stated that we didn't need to pay anything until closing. Well, we weren't selling our land. Today, we called the title company and were able to stop the transaction which had a closing date of the end of January. Then, we called the police who were nice but not very helpful. I did a little digging and the number of the scammer looks like it's a T-Mobile number from Chula Vista - one site gave a name that looks to be a surname from Ghana.

Anyway, it looks like the scam is pretty easy. They don't need to actually steal my identity, they just need basic information that is available with online tax records. They find a real estate professional to actually list the property on the MLS site. And then the scammers do all their work via email and docusign.

How does anyone keep this from being a continuous problem? How can I stop it in the future? If it gets past me, who can I go after legally? The title company and the real estate agent obviously should have done a much better job of making sure the seller of the property was the owner. And there is no way to know if either was in on the scam. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

Pretty scary that someone could steal a half million dollars that easily. Opinions?

it's a known scam.  We realtors receive warnings all the time.  If you receive a call from somebody out-of-town asking you to list their land, it's a red flag. 

 

https://www.dre.ca.gov/files/pdf/adv/2023/Advisory_2023_07_13_VacantLandPropertyScams.pdf

 

As the owner, you're fine.  It's the title company that gets fucked. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Gil Bang

[royiv 9402]

The perp is probably from Oklahoma. They're well known for thieving land.

[Bevo 13609]

3 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

it's a known scam.  We realtors receive warnings all the time.  If you receive a call from somebody out-of-town asking you to list their land, it's a red flag. 

 

https://www.dre.ca.gov/files/pdf/adv/2023/Advisory_2023_07_13_VacantLandPropertyScams.pdf

 

As the owner, you're fine.  It's the title company that gets fucked. 

 

 

We have the title in a safety deposit box. Wouldn't that be needed at closing? And if it is a red flag for real estate agents, it seems like the listing agent would be partially responsible.

[Bevo 13609]

And I do have the phone number that the scammer listed with the real estate agent. I need a policeman or FBI agent on this board to put the scare into them.

One thing that I wonder is even if the person listed with the T-Mobile, Chula Vista number lives in Ghana, I'm pretty sure that it would be coordinated by someone in the US. I wish the government would go after this kind of stuff hard. By letting it go, it just makes scams such as these more common.

[HRSchenker 2275]

3 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

it's a known scam.  We realtors receive warnings all the time.  If you receive a call from somebody out-of-town asking you to list their land, it's a red flag. 

 

https://www.dre.ca.gov/files/pdf/adv/2023/Advisory_2023_07_13_VacantLandPropertyScams.pdf

 

As the owner, you're fine.  It's the title company that gets fucked. 

 

 

What does that process even look like from the perspective of the title company? Who initiates contact and what is said? 

[Gil Bang 26069]

4 hours ago, Bevo said:

We have the title in a safety deposit box. Wouldn't that be needed at closing? And if it is a red flag for real estate agents, it seems like the listing agent would be partially responsible.

There is no such thing as a "title" (pink slip) for Real Property.   Deeds are instruments of conveyance.  If you were to sell, you wouldn't need whatever it is you have in that box.   A new deed would be created (and recorded) to convey ownership to the new owner. 

The "title" that you have is almost certainly a copy of the deed that was recorded at the county (or courthouse as the case may be).  You could burn that document, and it would have no effect on any sale of the property.

As to holding the listing agent responsible; well yeah, now that the cat is out of the bag and it's a known scam, a good agent should smell a rat.  But before it became widely known,  not so much.  

What is a listing agent supposed to do when a seller calls to list?   Ask for identification?   Now?   Probably.  I'd probably send over the advisory discussing the scam, and tell the seller "I apologize, but given the fact that there are a bunch of cocksucking scammers operating on selling vacant land, I must take the extraordinary step of verifying your identity". 

Here's a thing OP.  You have land in the Rockies, but it's highly likely that you have the tax bill mailed to your primary residence.   I would cross-check what's on the tax bull vs. whatever you tell me is your mailing address.  I'd probably google you too.  And I'd check your wife's onlyfans (if she has one). 

3 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

What does that process even look like from the perspective of the title company? Who initiates contact and what is said? 

Most likely, it's the listing agent who contacts the title company and opens an escrow/title order.   

"Hello Mr. Title Guy, I'm the listing agent on Parcel 123-456-789-0.    Mr. Hugh Jassole is selling this property to Mr. Mike Hunt.  I represent Mr. Jassole, Mr. Hunt is represented by Gabe Athouse of agency X.   Attached is  a copy of the purchase agreement.  Commissions are X per side.  Contact information for all  parties is as follows:..."

It's up to title to determine if Jassole is really Jassole, and has the right to sell the property.  It's also up to the title agency to see that CLEAR TITLE* is conveyed to Hunt.  If Jassole isn't the real owner, and Hunt gets fucked, the title company will need to make Hunt whole. Remember, Hunt doesn't give Jassole a dime, Hunt gives the money to the title company, and they give it to Jassole.

 

Upon taking the listing (or initial contact) the agent "should" have ordered a preliminary title report, showing ownership, and any and all liens and encumbrances.  It's best to know and disclose liens and easements up front. 

If somebody calls me tomorrow and says "I want to list my property immediately", I do two things:  1) pull up the tax rolls to see current ownership and vesting of same (husband and wife as joint tenants/revocable trust/LLC/whatever) and I immediately open a title order and get the ball rolling there.  It usually takes a few days to get the preliminary report.   The tax rolls are important because I need my listing agreement to show the correct legal sellers.

*clear title can be a misnomer.  Title can, and usually is, subject to various easements, covenants, restrictions, etc. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Gil Bang

[Dbeasy 15160]

27 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

There is no such thing as a "title" (pink slip) for Real Property.   Deeds are instruments of conveyance.  If you were to sell, you wouldn't need whatever it is you have in that box.   A new deed would be created (and recorded) to convey ownership to the new owner. 

The "title" that you have is almost certainly a copy of the deed that was recorded at the county (or courthouse as the case may be).  You could burn that document, and it would have no effect on any sale of the property.

As to holding the listing agent responsible; well yeah, now that the cat is out of the bag and it's a known scam, a good agent should smell a rat.  But before it became widely known,  not so much.  

What is a listing agent supposed to do when a seller calls to list?   Ask for identification?   Now?   Probably.  I'd probably send over the advisory discussing the scam, and tell the seller "I apologize, but given the fact that there are a bunch of cocksucking scammers operating on selling vacant land, I must take the extraordinary step of verifying your identity". 

Here's a thing OP.  You have land in the Rockies, but it's highly likely that you have the tax bill mailed to your primary residence.   I would cross-check what's on the tax bull vs. whatever you tell me is your mailing address.  I'd probably google you too.  And I'd check your wife's onlyfans (if she has one). 

Most likely, it's the listing agent who contacts the title company and opens an escrow/title order.   

"Hello Mr. Title Guy, I'm the listing agent on Parcel 123-456-789-0.    Mr. Hugh Jassole is selling this property to Mr. Mike Hunt.  I represent Mr. Jassole, Mr. Hunt is represented by Gabe Athouse of agency X.   Attached is  a copy of the purchase agreement.  Commissions are X per side.  Contact information for all  parties is as follows:..."

It's up to title to determine if Jassole is really Jassole, and has the right to sell the property.  It's also up to the title agency to see that CLEAR TITLE* is conveyed to Hunt.  If Jassole isn't the real owner, and Hunt gets fucked, the title company will need to make Hunt whole. Remember, Hunt doesn't give Jassole a dime, Hunt gives the money to the title company, and they give it to Jassole.

 

Upon taking the listing (or initial contact) the agent "should" have ordered a preliminary title report, showing ownership, and any and all liens and encumbrances.  It's best to know and disclose liens and easements up front. 

If somebody calls me tomorrow and says "I want to list my property immediately", I do two things:  1) pull up the tax rolls to see current ownership and vesting of same (husband and wife as joint tenants/revocable trust/LLC/whatever) and I immediately open a title order and get the ball rolling there.  It usually takes a few days to get the preliminary report.   The tax rolls are important because I need my listing agreement to show the correct legal sellers.

*clear title can be a misnomer.  Title can, and usually is, subject to various easements, covenants, restrictions, etc. 

if a buyer comes in later and demands a different title company in the negotiation, I guess the first title company eats the coast of the initial work they did for you?

[Gil Bang 26069]

if a buyer comes in later and demands a different title company in the negotiation, I guess the first title company eats the coast of the initial work they did for you?

I suppose, but I’ve never seen it happen.

[Bevo 13609]

4 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

I suppose, but I’ve never seen it happen.

I would think that the land owner (me) would bear some responsibility. What if I hadn't found out about it and the new (owner) started building on the property?

[Chewbacca 7788]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I would think that the land owner (me) would bear some responsibility. What if I hadn't found out about it and the new (owner) started building on the property?

I would make sure to visit regularly.  Not only someone building, but squatters can happen as well (yes, on vacant land).

[Gil Bang 26069]

3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I would think that the land owner (me) would bear some responsibility. What if I hadn't found out about it and the new (owner) started building on the property?

Once again, the title company would be up shit creek for the loss.  

I can't imagine how the owner would be responsible.  

But yeah, having a friendly neighbor (or even the local sheriff) know you and keep an eye out is a good thing. 

[Bevo 13609]

4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

I would make sure to visit regularly.  Not only someone building, but squatters can happen as well (yes, on vacant land).

It's a gated community in Sandpoint, ID so squatting may be difficult. We do visit regularly and as you may remember we were going to build pre-Covid but during Covid the construction costs went from $700K to $1.3M. You are lucky that you were able to get your house built because for me at least $1.3M isn't a vacation home price but more of an anchor.

[Bevo 13609]

6 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Once again, the title company would be up shit creek for the loss.  

I can't imagine how the owner would be responsible.  

But yeah, having a friendly neighbor (or even the local sheriff) know you and keep an eye out is a good thing. 

Do you think it would have required an attorney and court or would the title company admit that it fucked up and take the financial hit?

[Chewbacca 7788]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

It's a gated community in Sandpoint, ID so squatting may be difficult. We do visit regularly and as you may remember we were going to build pre-Covid but during Covid the construction costs went from $700K to $1.3M. You are lucky that you were able to get your house built because for me at least $1.3M isn't a vacation home price but more of an anchor.

I'm in the process of building right now and the cost is north of $500/sf for a gut remodel/addition.  It'll be great when it's done, though.  Will be our primary residence.

[Gil Bang 26069]

24 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Do you think it would have required an attorney and court or would the title company admit that it fucked up and take the financial hit?

That would be the buyer's problem.