This past weekend I learned

[pyrohornIII 4844]

That it's always "Take it to the CR" and never "Take it to the DT."   

First it was the NYT article on NIL, then the Aaron Rodgers/Kimmel controversy, and it seems something else blew up in one of the other big threads, but I forget what it was at the moment.   

I understand that there's a need to put politics aside and enjoy other things like sports, movies, music, food, etc. without getting into the stress of political or religious discussion.  And I think most of us abide by that in general.   But I don't understand why those rules apply only to those of us who regularly post here and have a central or left leaning perspective on things.  

I used to read the DT forum on a regular basis, but haven't in years, because it's decidedly "non-politically" political.  It became a sanctuary for those who leant pretty far right on things.    So pretty much peace was maintained on the board with each group having its own safe place. 

But it seems while we try to live within these rules, others have no issue bending them or outright breaking them.  Like the NYT/NIL thread.  I doubt seriously that would have gotten as much traffic as it did if it had been Sports Illustrated who published it, instead of the NYT.    Mainly because the NYT triggers the right, just like Fox triggers the left.  I won't get into the differences of how or why.  It wasn't a political thread until someone (troph, I think) defended the Times after several people had already denigrated it out of hand.  And then like clockwork "take it to the CR!!"  It's like we have no argument, we haven't read the article, so we won't discuss it.  What we will do is claim you have turned it into something political, so that belongs in CR.  But no one ever says "keep your opinions on the TImes in DT," do they?  

There are those who dance on the fringe all the time trying to bait someone to disagree with them, then cry "Political!"    Same thing happened with the Rodgers thread.  That was in no way political, but it turned that way because one of the parties involved is generally known to rag on the far right.  But then it's the CR folks who are called morons and idiots and other charming phrases that are somehow the villains every time.  Somebody says something political and then when we respond, we are the ones stirring up controversy where it shouldn't be.  

I'm not whining or playing the victim card here.  Those folks have rights to say what they want, within reason.  But it's an uneven playing field that we have to concede for the overall peace of the board.  And I am not negging the moderators or Imma or anyone associated with the running of the site.  I am grateful for their even allowing this.  

I see this all as a microcosm of our society as a whole.  There's so much talk about how ineffective the Dems are, but they fight this same battle every day.  It's a hard battle.  We see how difficult it is here in this small community.   It's even harder on a stage the size of America. 

There's a whole lot of 'the rules we write are written for thee, not me' going on, and now recently we've seen the exploitation of weaknesses in longstanding rules and understandings.  I am not sure how to fight that, it's like it's been normalized.  Same thing with propaganda and lies or half truths.  Trump did so much damage with his fake news batterings.  Gave his followers a reason to throw logic out the window. 

But at some point we do have to figure out how to break down that barrier and begin to compromise and communicate.  Or do we stand up and fight since the other side won't compromise?  That's how we ended up in the Civil War, right?  

Hopefully we can figure an answer here that will work on the big stage.  

[Incredulity 11861]

[YChang 3531]

My working theory is a lot of right leaning posters unconsciously harbor a modicum of shame but instead of working through it comes out in anger and willful desire to not think about it. 

[softlynow 1893]

2 minutes ago, YChang said:

My working theory is a lot of right leaning posters unconsciously harbor a modicum of shame but instead of working through it comes out in anger and willful desire to not think about it. 

Mine is that the right-leaning folks who don't engage on substance, but instead bitch about sources, or cannot admit even self-evident facts are true hold their political views almost entirely based on emotion. They may even think they have rational reasons for their beliefs, but, when I've heard them try to lay it out, it almost always derives from their feels.

I think it's why so many of them resort to trolling. They're broken inside, and need the dopamine hit from triggering their enemy. Now, don't take me saying "they're broken" as me judging them. To some extent, we're all broken inside. Most of us just cope with it in ways other than advocating that the government make other people's lives harder and in doing so becoming a tool for billionaires to amass greater weath. For that, I judge them.

[Fudge Nuggets 19407]

23 minutes ago, YChang said:

My working theory is a lot of right leaning posters unconsciously harbor a modicum of shame but instead of working through it comes out in anger and willful desire to not think about it. 

My working theory is they are a bunch of bitchass snowflake pussies.  It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that. 

[wildcat09 29556]

4 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

My working theory is they are a bunch of bitchass snowflake pussies.  It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that. 

Yup, they’re softer than Charmin.

Edited January 4 by wildcat09

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

This thread belongs in DT. (j/k--it really doesn't but it does not actually belong in the CR per se either)

Most of the threads in DT don't belong in DT once a day or two has passed--the topic changes into something that is ideological and does not remain a relevant evolving discussion/situation related to a current event. Not sure why more topics don't get moved that way.This board was created by people with academic know-how.

Edited January 4 by Mrs Whiggins
left off the j/k and some folks have a hard time with text jokes

[bolverk 30231]

@pyrohornIII The only way to combat their bullshit without devolving into an ideologically based argument is to just stick with the facts. Once I posted a summary of the article and the actual text, some of them seemed to come around. You can't reach everyone, but you can reach the reasonable ones. However, I'm sure a few ignored my post entirely based on the last page of the thread. By that point, no one seemed to care except for the most dug-in and committed. Everyone else seemed to move on except for those asshats.

I see and agree with your overall point that right-leaning posters, for the most part, don't participate in political discussions here, so they let it slip out everywhere else. Of course, they deny that they're doing it, but that's just a farce. One example that I'm right now trying to figure out how/whether to respond to is in the Youth Minister's (and other pervs) Thread of Shame where Newdoc said pedophiles should suffer the "Removal of sexual organs and estrogen implants for male sex crime convicts," strongly implying that trans individuals are responsible for child molestation when all the evidence says otherwise. It's the second to the last post. I know that it's bait, but no one has really picked up on it yet, or everyone has just decided to ignore it.

I do see some of our left-leaning posters make overt cloaky statements in DT now and then, too, especially when it comes to Trump, Elon, and Tucker (when he was still relevant). But most of those are in relation to what shitty people they are as racists, traitors, etc.

Edit: One thing that particularly perturbs me in the DT is how wild, unfounded allegations/conspiracy theories (whether political or not) are allowed to proliferate there. And, of course, it's the same right-leaning cohort that participates most in those.

Edited January 4 by bolverk

[Neonmoon 38130]

41 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

That it's always "Take it to the CR" and never "Take it to the DT."   

First it was the NYT article on NIL, then the Aaron Rodgers/Kimmel controversy, and it seems something else blew up in one of the other big threads, but I forget what it was at the moment.   

I understand that there's a need to put politics aside and enjoy other things like sports, movies, music, food, etc. without getting into the stress of political or religious discussion.  And I think most of us abide by that in general.   But I don't understand why those rules apply only to those of us who regularly post here and have a central or left leaning perspective on things.  

I used to read the DT forum on a regular basis, but haven't in years, because it's decidedly "non-politically" political.  It became a sanctuary for those who leant pretty far right on things.    So pretty much peace was maintained on the board with each group having its own safe place. 

But it seems while we try to live within these rules, others have no issue bending them or outright breaking them.  Like the NYT/NIL thread.  I doubt seriously that would have gotten as much traffic as it did if it had been Sports Illustrated who published it, instead of the NYT.    Mainly because the NYT triggers the right, just like Fox triggers the left.  I won't get into the differences of how or why.  It wasn't a political thread until someone (troph, I think) defended the Times after several people had already denigrated it out of hand.  And then like clockwork "take it to the CR!!"  It's like we have no argument, we haven't read the article, so we won't discuss it.  What we will do is claim you have turned it into something political, so that belongs in CR.  But no one ever says "keep your opinions on the TImes in DT," do they?  

There are those who dance on the fringe all the time trying to bait someone to disagree with them, then cry "Political!"    Same thing happened with the Rodgers thread.  That was in no way political, but it turned that way because one of the parties involved is generally known to rag on the far right.  But then it's the CR folks who are called morons and idiots and other charming phrases that are somehow the villains every time.  Somebody says something political and then when we respond, we are the ones stirring up controversy where it shouldn't be.  

I'm not whining or playing the victim card here.  Those folks have rights to say what they want, within reason.  But it's an uneven playing field that we have to concede for the overall peace of the board.  And I am not negging the moderators or Imma or anyone associated with the running of the site.  I am grateful for their even allowing this.  

I see this all as a microcosm of our society as a whole.  There's so much talk about how ineffective the Dems are, but they fight this same battle every day.  It's a hard battle.  We see how difficult it is here in this small community.   It's even harder on a stage the size of America. 

There's a whole lot of 'the rules we write are written for thee, not me' going on, and now recently we've seen the exploitation of weaknesses in longstanding rules and understandings.  I am not sure how to fight that, it's like it's been normalized.  Same thing with propaganda and lies or half truths.  Trump did so much damage with his fake news batterings.  Gave his followers a reason to throw logic out the window. 

But at some point we do have to figure out how to break down that barrier and begin to compromise and communicate.  Or do we stand up and fight since the other side won't compromise?  That's how we ended up in the Civil War, right?  

Hopefully we can figure an answer here that will work on the big stage.  

The country is increasingly divided, and it reverberates onto this message board. It manifests politically, but the root issue is decency and truth. 

While Donald Trump was the catalyst for this environment, it truly is an issue with information technology, social media, and regulation. Donald Trump broke the foundations of truth. He lies with every breath, and by electing him to Team B, anything he says, including every lie, is supported and promulgated as truth by Team B, and not just be online weirdos anymore during birtherism. Legacy media, particularly Fox New, but also CNN and other legitimatized his lies.

The same can be said for the entire Republican Party. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a foreign leader to investigate his own political rival, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. II hurts truth. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a Secretary of State to find votes for him, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. It hurts truth.

There is no longer a shared reality. Nothing anyone says is true anymore. No one believes anyone anymore about anything. Add in the same destruction of truth with people like Joe Rogan and the Pandemic, and it adds fuel to the fire. If a racist comedian is given the same deference to information as a medical doctor that spent their life studying disease. There is no shared reality. The loudest voice wins. 

We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists and anti-vax weirdos. Now they are prominent. Legitimized. 

For example, it would be like a person on this board stating sovereign citizen insane shit in the football forum. And if anyone said they were crazy, someone saying "take it to the CR" or believing the world is flat is normal and can't be ridiculed outside politics. That is what Trump/Rogan/Republicans have done to America. They have legitimized insanity. They have legitimized Nazism, fascism, racism. It's a legitimate pollical believe that only white males should have the right to vote, that vaccines cause autism, that immigrants have dirty blood, or that Epstein was a Mossad operative. 

It's only going to get worse. 

 

 

 

[pyrohornIII 4844]

29 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

This thread belongs in DT. (j/k--it really doesn't but it does not actually belong in the CR per se either)

Most of the threads in DT don't belong in DT once a day or two has passed--the topic changes into something that is ideological and does not remain a relevant evolving discussion/situation related to a current event. Not sure why more topics don't get moved that way.This board was created by people with academic know-how.

I understand.  I just didn't know where to put it where it might get some actual discussion.    It's good to see you back, btw.  Your input was missed while you were gone.

[Captainant 28387]

4 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

I understand.  I just didn't know where to put it where it might get some actual discussion.    It's good to see you back, btw.  Your input was missed while you were gone.

Tbh I think this should have gone in the board metadiscussion board. You're exactly spot on with the "non-political political" thing though - if someone doesn't want to take the time to unga their bunga and read, they just cry "CR" and end the discussion for everyone 

Edited January 4 by Captainant

[pyrohornIII 4844]

4 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The country is increasingly divided, and it reverberates onto this message board. It manifests politically, but the root issue is decency and truth. 

While Donald Trump was the catalyst for this environment, it truly is an issue with information technology, social media, and regulation. Donald Trump broke the foundations of truth. He lies with every breath, and by electing him to Team B, anything he says, including every lie, is supported and promulgated as truth by Team B, and not just be online weirdos anymore during birtherism. Legacy media, particularly Fox New, but also CNN and other legitimatized his lies.

The same can be said for the entire Republican Party. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a foreign leader to investigate his own political rival, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. II hurts truth. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a Secretary of State to find votes for him, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. It hurts truth.

There is no longer a shared reality. Nothing anyone says is true anymore. No one believes anyone anymore about anything. Add in the same destruction of truth with people like Joe Rogan and the Pandemic, and it adds fuel to the fire. If a racist comedian is given the same deference to information as a medical doctor that spent their life studying disease. There is no shared reality. The loudest voice wins. 

We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists and anti-vax weirdos. Now they are prominent. Legitimized. 

For example, it would be like a person on this board stating sovereign citizen insane shit in the football forum. And if anyone said they were crazy, someone saying "take it to the CR" or believing the world is flat is normal and can't be ridiculed outside politics. That is what Trump/Rogan/Republicans have done to America. They have legitimized insanity. They have legitimized Nazism, fascism, racism. It's a legitimate pollical believe that only white males should have the right to vote, that vaccines cause autism, that immigrants have dirty blood, or that Epstein was a Mossad operative. 

It's only going to get worse. 

 

 

 

I get it Neon, but how do we combat it?  Or do we simply give up and hit the ledge?

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Thanks @pyrohornIII I was ribbing you a little. Don't have any answers, really.

@bolverk --Is calling Elon Musk a racist or misogynist really political? Those two terms seem rather equal opportunity to me unless one specifically brings up a belief that X Y Z party has that in its platform? I mean it's something that gets tossed around in CR but if a celebrity/public figure (Elon holds no office in government) says (hypothetically) women are inferior to men and should not be allowed to hold jobs or drive, attend school, etc I don't consider that political necessarily but I will call him a sexist. Maybe even a sexist pig but pigs are actually useful.

Edited January 4 by Mrs Whiggins

[wildcat09 29556]

32 minutes ago, bolverk said:

@pyrohornIII The only way to combat their bullshit without devolving into an ideologically based argument is to just stick with the facts. Once I posted a summary of the article and the actual text, some of them seemed to come around. You can't reach everyone, but you can reach the reasonable ones. However, I'm sure a few ignored my post entirely based on the last page of the thread. By that point, no one seemed to care except for the most dug-in and committed. Everyone else seemed to move on except for those asshats.

I see and agree with your overall point that right-leaning posters, for the most part, don't participate in political discussions here, so they let it slip out everywhere else. Of course, they deny that they're doing it, but that's just a farce. One example that I'm right now trying to figure out how/whether to respond to is in the Youth Minister's (and other pervs) Thread of Shame where Newdoc said pedophiles should suffer the "Removal of sexual organs and estrogen implants for male sex crime convicts," strongly implying that trans individuals are responsible for child molestation when all the evidence says otherwise. It's the second to the last post. I know that it's bait, but no one has really picked up on it yet, or everyone has just decided to ignore it.

I do see some of our left-leaning posters make overt cloaky statements in DT now and then, too, especially when it comes to Trump, Elon, and Tucker (when he was still relevant). But most of those are in relation to what shitty people they are as racists, traitors, etc.

Edit: One thing that particularly perturbs me in the DT is how wild, unfounded allegations/conspiracy theories (whether political or not) are allowed to proliferate there. And, of course, it's the same right-leaning cohort that participates most in those.

I hadn't seen it before so just went to read it, but I think Newdoc was saying that men who commit sex crimes should receive estrogen implants, which would (at least in his thinking) keep them from committing more sex crimes in the future. I don't know how effective that might be, but I don't think he was trying to imply that trans women are committing a disproportionate amount of sex crimes. 

[bolverk 30231]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Thanks @pyrohornIII I was ribbing you a little. Don't have any answers, really.

@bolverk --Is calling Elon Musk a racist or misogynist really political? Those two terms seem rather equal opportunity to me unless one specifically brings up a belief that X Y Z party has that in its platform? I mean it's something that gets tossed around in CR but if a celebrity/public figure (Elon holds no office in government) says (hypothetically) women are inferior to men and should not be allowed to hold jobs or drive, attend school, etc I don't consider that political necessarily but I will call him a sexist. Maybe even a sexist pig but pigs are actually useful.

Maybe I take it as political as the vast majority of misogynists, incels, fascists, racists, homophobes, etc., are on the right, and those are the ones who Elon is boosting on Twitter now. It's kind of getting to be an overt thing.

[bolverk 30231]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I hadn't seen it before so just went to read it, but I think Newdoc was saying that men who commit sex crimes should receive estrogen implants, which would (at least in his thinking) keep them from committing more sex crimes in the future. I don't know how effective that might be, but I don't think he was trying to imply that trans women are committing a disproportionate amount of sex crimes. 

Gotcha. I was reading it as if he wanted their estrogen implants removed along with their sex organs with the implication that transwomen, who have estrogen implants, are guilty of sex crimes against kids.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I don't disagree with that point. Edit: the point regarding the RW and racism etc)

Edited January 4 by Mrs Whiggins

[Neonmoon 38130]

20 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

I get it Neon, but how do we combat it?  Or do we simply give up and hit the ledge?

On this message board? With facts, but in reality, a good portion of this message doesn't care about facts. Further, it probably hurts the bottom line if moderators banned all the people that can't handle or comprehend information. Hell, there's even a thread about the issue of profitability, with a few insinuating the problem is CR. 

In the real world? Unfettered disinformation is a problem. There's no easy solution. It starts with reinstating the Fairness Doctrine and the ban on foreign ownership of media. Maybe there should be a ban on foreign entities buying political advertisements. The overturning of Citizens United is a good start. But we both know none of these things are happening. Even if there was a videotape of Murdoch, Trump, and Putin having dinner laughing and talking about destroying the United States so the white race could be reborn, not a fucking thing would happen. Hard to put the genie back in the bottle. 

 

[mchookem 16728]

1 hour ago, YChang said:

My working theory is a lot of right leaning posters unconsciously harbor a modicum of shame but instead of working through it comes out in anger and willful desire to not think about it. 

 

1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

My working theory is they are a bunch of bitchass snowflake pussies.  It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that. 

 

 

also, i think the other blow up occurred in one of the other bowl game threads, maybe the Fiesta...

[YChang 3531]

Haha, the psychology nerd in me wants to understand what's going on in their brains though... being a bitchass snowflake is just the behavioral outcome. 

[bolverk 30231]

1 minute ago, mchookem said:

 

 

 

also, i think the other blow up occurred in one of the other bowl game threads, maybe the Fiesta...

Yeah, it was in there with the talk about Liberty being a shitty evangelical diploma mill that covers up rape allegations. Is talking about that CR?

[F250 29174]

40 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, it was in there with the talk about Liberty being a shitty evangelical diploma mill that covers up rape allegations. Is talking about that CR?

Criticism of Liberty "University" is a political trigger for the far Right. It's odd because we shit talk aggy and Baylor for similar reasons all the time but people freak out if it's Liberty.

[pyrohornIII 4844]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Thanks @pyrohornIII I was ribbing you a little. Don't have any answers, really.

@bolverk --Is calling Elon Musk a racist or misogynist really political? Those two terms seem rather equal opportunity to me unless one specifically brings up a belief that X Y Z party has that in its platform? I mean it's something that gets tossed around in CR but if a celebrity/public figure (Elon holds no office in government) says (hypothetically) women are inferior to men and should not be allowed to hold jobs or drive, attend school, etc I don't consider that political necessarily but I will call him a sexist. Maybe even a sexist pig but pigs are actually useful.

Especially in Deadwood:  https://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/12/deadwood-approach-to-fighting-terrorism.html

[Captainant 28387]

44 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

Especially in Deadwood:  https://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/12/deadwood-approach-to-fighting-terrorism.html

wow that is an absolutely ancient blog lol, fucking GEORGE BUSH ERA!

[Brisketexan 106618]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I do see some of our left-leaning posters make overt cloaky statements in DT now and then, too, especially when it comes to Trump, Elon, and Tucker (when he was still relevant). But most of those are in relation to what shitty people they are as racists, traitors, etc.

Here's the thing: the most basic social concepts have become militantly political.  Being a racist, misogynist fucking asshole is a political act.  Being utterly selfish, having contempt for others, hating others, finding joy in "making them cry" -- all of those are political acts.

If someone is a flaming asshole, and I call them out for being a flaming asshole, that's "political" because "being a flaming asshole" is one of this country's core political identities.  That's fucking fucked up.  It's not the political environment I grew up in and (naively) thought would remain the order of the day.  The leadership of the two parties had and fought about their political differences (taxes, military policy, etc.).  And their social beliefs and actions largely mirrored those of society as a whole (for bad and good....go back in time, and in the 50s and 60s, most politicians of both parties were racist.  Even some politicians who actually advanced legislation to address racism were racist).  Move into the 90s, and a much smaller percentage was racist (or at least were openly so).  Today?  Nativist racist xenophobic bullshit is back in vogue.  And I can't call a racist a racist because "that's political!"  No it's not, it's just being a fucking asshole.

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The country is increasingly divided, and it reverberates onto this message board. It manifests politically, but the root issue is decency and truth. 

While Donald Trump was the catalyst for this environment, it truly is an issue with information technology, social media, and regulation. Donald Trump broke the foundations of truth. He lies with every breath, and by electing him to Team B, anything he says, including every lie, is supported and promulgated as truth by Team B, and not just be online weirdos anymore during birtherism. Legacy media, particularly Fox New, but also CNN and other legitimatized his lies.

The same can be said for the entire Republican Party. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a foreign leader to investigate his own political rival, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. II hurts truth. When you listen to an audio recording of Donald Trump asking a Secretary of State to find votes for him, and there are no consequences. It hurts democracy. It hurts truth.

There is no longer a shared reality. Nothing anyone says is true anymore. No one believes anyone anymore about anything. Add in the same destruction of truth with people like Joe Rogan and the Pandemic, and it adds fuel to the fire. If a racist comedian is given the same deference to information as a medical doctor that spent their life studying disease. There is no shared reality. The loudest voice wins. 

We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists and anti-vax weirdos. Now they are prominent. Legitimized. 

For example, it would be like a person on this board stating sovereign citizen insane shit in the football forum. And if anyone said they were crazy, someone saying "take it to the CR" or believing the world is flat is normal and can't be ridiculed outside politics. That is what Trump/Rogan/Republicans have done to America. They have legitimized insanity. They have legitimized Nazism, fascism, racism. It's a legitimate pollical believe that only white males should have the right to vote, that vaccines cause autism, that immigrants have dirty blood, or that Epstein was a Mossad operative. 

It's only going to get worse. 

This this this. Especially the bolded.  That's it.  That's really what it comes down to.  It's one thing for a society to tolerate cruelty, meanness, lies, and venom.  It's quite another when that society CHAMPIONS those things.  When those things are seen as emblems of success, and things to be admired.  They WANT Trump to hurt people, they find joy in it ("liberal tears!"  And never forget the lament "but he's hurting the wrong people!"  They wanted him to hurt people.  They DESPERATELY want it.  With every fiber of their being. It is literally their identity.  It just has to be the RIGHT people he's hurting).

In this society's war between "be a dick" and "hey, maybe don't be a dick," "be a dick" has won, raised its flag over the capitol, and is busy imposing its will as the victor.  Everything else follows, including the politics.

[956 Worldwide 35516]

It’s not political to call Elon or Tucker racist assholes. They hide behind politics as a defense to criticism of being horrible pieces of shit who are trying to help people like Vladimir Putin. 

[HornOnTheBayou 9056]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Here's the thing: the most basic social concepts have become militantly political.  Being a racist, misogynist fucking asshole is a political act.  Being utterly selfish, having contempt for others, hating others, finding joy in "making them cry" -- all of those are political acts.

Excellent point. And you kinda hit on the other thing about our present situation that really pisses me off. "It's politics. Don't take it personally. Reasonable people can disagree." OK, yes, reasonable people can disagree on political topics. If you think we should go to a "Medicare for all" healthcare system and I think we should just spend more money to expand Obamacare, well those are both respectable positions that can be supported with logic and facts and we can have a rational debate. But notice that both positions start with the idea that everyone should have access to affordable health care. 

If you start with the idea that we as a society should be trying to help everyone, especially marginalized groups, then even if we come to different conclusions, we can still reasonably disagree. But if you start with a position of demonizing immigrants, LGBTQ teens, or any other marginalized group, then, no, we are not going to reasonably disagree and yes, I will take it personally. Because as @Brisketexan, that makes you an asshole. Same goes for if you start with insane conspiracy theories like microchips in vaccines or pedophile rings out of pizza parlors.

[Degenerate Gardner 4132]

5 hours ago, YChang said:

My working theory is a lot of right leaning posters unconsciously harbor a modicum of shame but instead of working through it comes out in anger and willful desire to not think about it. 

Slightly off topic but a sort of corollary to that: I’ve wondered about Trump voters and their success in recovery. So much of the Trump ethos is about anger, resentment, lying, shamelessness, belittling others, cultivating enemies, denying reality, not applying critical thinking, etc - things antithetical to 12-step programs. Are Trump voters in recovery able to compartmentalize this cavalcade of dysfunction and somehow successfully work 12 steps at the same clip as non-Trumpers? I know what my guess would be but I lack any real basis for that.

 

Edited January 4 by Degenerate Gardner

[bolverk 30231]

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

and

I happened upon the Gettysburg address today (don't ask me how) and it struck me how different we are now. I think that modern, highly populated America is made up of too many disparate and different parts in it's maturity to have a shared vision and mission. It's much easier to do when a country (or anything) is more homogenous (and similar motivations and incentives are aligned) and the amount of people to make and keep content are fewer.

In a lot of ways, the "America" problem is the same problem the Democrat Party has-- the tent is very large comprising of a lot of different needs that don't always align and agree and it's very difficult to get consensus on particulars. Democrat party can still agree on large general themes though whereas America seems politically, demographically, racially, spiritually, balkanized, but under the same flag. 

Which, when you look at a world map, it is pretty rare to have a country with such large landmass (that are populated) probably for these very reasons. 

This is a theme I've seen you bring up several times in the past: America is too big and diverse to be governed. I don't buy that, and I question why you keep bringing it up. To me, there seems to be only one group that seems to have a problem living in a pluralistic democracy where everyone should have a say in how it functions.

It's true that Democrats operate under a Big Tent with generally agreed-upon principles:

a) EQUALITY: Democracy is good/everyone should have a say. Don't be a dick to minority groups.

b) EDUCATION: Informed citizens make better decisions as citizens, are more innovative minds, and are better workers. They believe public education is the most efficient and equitable means of promoting those things.

c) ECONOMY: A well-regulated economy best serves the country by promoting worker rights, fair wages, and spreading some of the wealth for all.

d) ENVIRONMENT: If we don't protect the planet, none of the above matters.

 

Agreement on these broad principles is why Republican presidential candidates rarely win a majority of the popular vote nowadays. They want to advance the broader public good for everyone's advancement. It's a winning platform that multiple constituencies can get behind. The modern GOP, on the other hand, wants to hoard whatever hasn't gone to shit for a few narrow groups to the detriment of everyone else.

[nbmishoid 984]

The next one in recovery will be the first

[Brisketexan 106618]

This is a theme I've seen you bring up several times in the past: America is too big and diverse to be governed. I don't buy that, and I question why you keep bringing it up. To me, there seems to be only one group that seems to have a problem living in a pluralistic democracy where everyone should have a say in how it functions.
It's true that Democrats operate under a Big Tent with generally agreed-upon principles:
a) EQUALITY: Democracy is good/everyone should have a say. Don't be a dick to minority groups.
b) EDUCATION: Informed citizens make better decisions as citizens, are more innovative minds, and are better workers. They believe public education is the most efficient and equitable means of promoting those things.
c) ECONOMY: A well-regulated economy best serves the country by promoting worker rights, fair wages, and spreading some of the wealth for all.
d) ENVIRONMENT: If we don't protect the planet, none of the above matters.
 
Agreement on these broad principles is why Republican presidential candidates rarely win a majority of the popular vote nowadays. They want to advance the broader public good for everyone's advancement. It's a winning platform that multiple constituencies can get behind. The modern GOP, on the other hand, wants to hoard whatever hasn't gone to shit for a few narrow groups to the detriment of everyone else.

Bingo. The people who have a big big big problem with a “pluralistic” society are the people who will only accept that society so long as they are in complete control and reap the lion’s share of the benefits. In other words…pluralistic and egalitarian, but actually, not pluralistic or egalitarian at all.

[Walser 1125]

Criticism of Liberty "University" is a political trigger for the far Right. It's odd because we shit talk aggy and Baylor for similar reasons all the time but people freak out if it's Liberty.

That was me! I was being flippant and forgot where I was, mea culpa. First experience with the vitriol that can ensue.

As I am here in the CR, I can reveal what some had asked me about my family member that went to Liberty quite a while ago. My cousin was kicked out for being gay, yet his boyfriend was allowed to remain because he came from an important family.

He was then disowned by his father (my uncle) and wandered through some tough times. His father eventually reconciled with him and they had a
great cathartic dinner.

They both died in a plane crash the next day.

[bolverk 30231]

2 minutes ago, Walser said:

That was me! I was being flippant and forgot where I was, mea culpa. First experience with the vitriol that can ensue.

As I am here in the CR, I can reveal what some had asked me about my family member that went to Liberty quite a while ago. My cousin was kicked out for being gay, yet his boyfriend was allowed to remain because he came from an important family.

He was then disowned by his father (my uncle) and wandered through some tough times. His father eventually reconciled with him and they had a
great cathartic dinner.

They both died in a plane crash the next day.

Jesus. I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm glad they could reconcile before the end and overcome the fear/hatred your uncle was taught.

Apologies for the Hook'em reaction, as I couldn't think of what would be appropriate. 

[Walser 1125]

Jesus. I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm glad they could reconcile before the end and overcome the fear/hatred your uncle was taught.
Apologies for the Hook'em reaction, as I couldn't think of what would be appropriate. 

Yeah it was tragic but I am so happy they made amends. Unfortunately it was a small plane being flown by my uncle and my other cousin watched it happen.

My uncle flew in the Air Force in Vietnam and later for Delta for 25 years. He owned his own airstrip and rebuilt 17 planes that he had there.

Sometimes there is just no making sense of it.

https://www.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/05/1_dead_in_clark_county_plane_c.html

[jimmyjazz 46976]

It's a huge problem with surly.  I've made my thoughts on this known for years.  DT is a right wing safe space, and the owners/moderators tolerate it.  It's bullshit, but it ain't my board.

The right thing to do is to just define forums based on their allowable subject matter, and DT/CR should be one forum under "current events, politics, and other news".  But we can't have that, because pussies.

[956 Worldwide 35516]

54 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

and

I happened upon the Gettysburg address today (don't ask me how) and it struck me how different we are now. I think that modern, highly populated America is made up of too many disparate and different parts in it's maturity to have a shared vision and mission. It's much easier to do when a country (or anything) is more homogenous (and similar motivations and incentives are aligned) and the amount of people to make and keep content are fewer.

In a lot of ways, the "America" problem is the same problem the Democrat Party has-- the tent is very large comprising of a lot of different needs that don't always align and agree and it's very difficult to get consensus on particulars. Democrat party can still agree on large general themes though whereas America seems politically, demographically, racially, and spiritually, balkanized, but under the same flag. 

Which, when you look at a world map, it is pretty rare to have a country with such large landmass (that are populated) like America has, which is probably for these very reasons. 

The Gettysburg Address was delivered at a moment when fresh of the boat Irish were bayoneting poor Southern whites who were fighting for the right of their social betters to keep black people in human bondage.

You read that and really thought “oh, wow, we were really so much more united back then. Maybe pluralism was for that era.” 

[Neonmoon 38130]

40 minutes ago, bolverk said:

This is a theme I've seen you bring up several times in the past: America is too big and diverse to be governed. I don't buy that, and I question why you keep bringing it up. To me, there seems to be only one group that seems to have a problem living in a pluralistic democracy where everyone should have a say in how it functions.

We all know why he keeps bringing it up 

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Gettysburg Address was delivered at a moment when fresh of the boat Irish were bayoneting poor Southern whites who were fighting for the right of their social betters to keep black people in human bondage.

You read that and really thought “oh, wow, we were really so much more united back then. Maybe pluralism was for that era.” 

Ding Ding Ding 

[seven 1368]

TV and movies forum even has this problem. There is a cabal of incels that will shit on any major casting of a woman or minority. If you call them out on it they will report you and get you a time out for "CRing". 

[Fudge Nuggets 19407]

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Gettysburg Address was delivered at a moment when fresh of the boat Irish were bayoneting poor Southern whites who were fighting for the right of their social betters to keep black people in human bondage.

You read that and really thought “oh, wow, we were really so much more united back then. Maybe pluralism was for that era.” 

Nothing says national unity like a fucking Civil War. 

[Brisketexan 106618]

Nothing says national unity like a fucking Civil War. 

….that the same fucking assholes want to re-fight for the same fucking reasons. Jesus. We should have crushed and destroyed every last confederate the first time. Sherman was too kind and merciful.

[bolverk 30231]

2 minutes ago, seven said:

TV and movies forum even has this problem. There is a cabal of incels that will shit on any major casting of a woman or minority. If you call them out on it they will report you and get you a time out for "CRing". 

Yeah, I can think of one poster who's been enraged about it a couple of times -- one of which was a fucking fantasy series. I called him out on it on the basis that films are distributed globally to a diverse audience, so it's a smart business decision for casting to be inclusive as long as it doesn't detract from the main story.

Avoided timeout, and he shut up about it in that thread.

[YChang 3531]

As already pointed out, Democrats and the landed gentry in the South pre/post Civil War was already uncomfortable with the diversity found in the US at the time. 

Edited January 5 by YChang

[safe sex 11913]

It's Chrispy 🤷‍♀️

[Chewbacca 7827]

1 hour ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Slightly off topic but a sort of corollary to that: I’ve wondered about Trump voters and their success in recovery. So much of the Trump ethos is about anger, resentment, lying, shamelessness, belittling others, cultivating enemies, denying reality, not applying critical thinking, etc - things antithetical to 12-step programs. Are Trump voters in recovery able to compartmentalize this cavalcade of dysfunction and somehow successfully work 12 steps at the same clip as non-Trumpers? I know what my guess would be but I lack any real basis for that.

 

In my personal experience, they have zero issues holding beliefs that are in direct conflict with each other (for example, COVID is nothing to worry about, so I'm not going to wear a mask, but also being terrified that vaccinated people are going to shed COVID all over them).  It's not an issue because they don't think that deeply.

[mdmost 43850]

People tend to ignore politics being inserted into threads when it's politics you agree with. There's always right wing jabs or slurs thrown out in other forums but you aren't allowed to call them out on it. My teen daughter had a funny observation about all the people decrying that kids or liberals were "snowflakes" when it's really they that are the ones being snowflakes and getting offended at the littlest things. 

[Brisketexan 106618]

In my personal experience, they have zero issues holding beliefs that are in direct conflict with each other (for example, COVID is nothing to worry about, so I'm not going to wear a mask, but also being terrified that vaccinated people are going to shed COVID all over them).  It's not an issue because they don't think that deeply.

Perfect example.

[Blotto 23974]

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

There is no longer a shared reality. Nothing anyone says is true anymore. No one believes anyone anymore about anything. Add in the same destruction of truth with people like Joe Rogan and the Pandemic, and it adds fuel to the fire. If a racist comedian is given the same deference to information as a medical doctor that spent their life studying disease. There is no shared reality. The loudest voice wins. 

We used to laugh at conspiracy theorists and anti-vax weirdos. Now they are prominent. Legitimized. 

While there was a lot of fucked up stupid shit that came with Trump shitting all over the white house for 4 years, this is his most damaging legacy. It was always his plan of course, because thats the only way you can peddle his particular brand of bullshit. But the complete abandonment of truth for "alternative facts" destroyed whatever chance this country had left. 4 years of that shit broke the country. 

[956 Worldwide 35516]

34 minutes ago, YChang said:

As already pointed out, Democrats and the landed gentry in the South pre/post Civil War was already uncomfortable with the diversity found in the US at the time. 

My serious response to the “too big and diverse”, assuming I accept the reasoning (I don’t) is—- so what? What’s the alternative?  Let’s talk about how to address challenges inherent to governing a large, diverse nation. 
 

Do we want to talk about devolution and subsidiarity? Ok, let’s talk about that.

Or are we going to break up the country? Kick out all the “others.” Introduce the strong hand of authoritarianism? (Usually this is where this is going). Sorry but all those things are worse. “America is too big and diverse for democracy so let’s be autocratic” is a shit fucking take. 
 

I posted this in DT and joked that Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour is responsible for continued American economic primacy. It’s almost the truth though. 

In everything from human capital to physical plant to resources to institutions it is almost comical how advantaged the United States is over any nation on earth. Talking about American decline is absurd.

 The amount of wealth and power we have is simply incomparable. It is beyond me why we want to squander it and actively try to jettison our advantages.  I think too many of us got too comfortable and so silliness is a change of pace. 
 

[Chewbacca 7827]

13 minutes ago, mdmost said:

People tend to ignore politics being inserted into threads when it's politics you agree with. There's always right wing jabs or slurs thrown out in other forums but you aren't allowed to call them out on it. My teen daughter had a funny observation about all the people decrying that kids or liberals were "snowflakes" when it's really they that are the ones being snowflakes and getting offended at the littlest things. 

Every accusation is a confession.

[Biff Tannen 46061]

2 hours ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

Excellent point. And you kinda hit on the other thing about our present situation that really pisses me off. "It's politics. Don't take it personally. Reasonable people can disagree." OK, yes, reasonable people can disagree on political topics. If you think we should go to a "Medicare for all" healthcare system and I think we should just spend more money to expand Obamacare, well those are both respectable positions that can be supported with logic and facts and we can have a rational debate. But notice that both positions start with the idea that everyone should have access to affordable health care. 

If you start with the idea that we as a society should be trying to help everyone, especially marginalized groups, then even if we come to different conclusions, we can still reasonably disagree. But if you start with a position of demonizing immigrants, LGBTQ teens, or any other marginalized group, then, no, we are not going to reasonably disagree and yes, I will take it personally. Because as @Brisketexan, that makes you an asshole. Same goes for if you start with insane conspiracy theories like microchips in vaccines or pedophile rings out of pizza parlors.

I think this is the most succinct and easy way to understand what we have become.  Not how, necessarily, but what.  

Politics used to be somewhat "reasonable".  Like when you see those charts showing how Congress would reach across the aisle all the time and now it happens pretty much never.

Now, it's people still trying to be reasonable vs batshit insanity.  And somehow these are seen as two sides deserving of equal time and consideration.