Learn me on developing raw land and/or off grid living

[Guest]

I've been toying with the idea of buying a piece of raw land and building a getaway. The idea of being off-grid is interesting, as is being incredibly efficient and weather proof, but don't know if that's realistic. 

I'd love to learn more about the details of building on raw land from how to get electricity to a site to how solar systems work to permitting in unincorporated areas to septic. Any books/websites you'd suggest?

I know my way around remodeling and mechanical systems but never done anything that was off grid or starting from a raw piece of land.

[deadshank 24653]

Do you owe a lot of back taxes?

[Surly Bevo 25539]

I think where would probably make a difference but this might be a good read for you just to see how it's done in the harshest of conditions

 

 

[ROFL BOX 6650]

Paging " @CleverNickname " to the Burnt Orange courtesy phone...

Paging a Mr. "Clever Nickname"...

[CleverNickname 1335]

Ha!

Yes we bought land in about 2007. Originally 34ac, now up to 75. Unincorporated Mills County, so very few regs. Probably the only real regs are requiring a permit for septic. That wasn't even true until a couple of years later.

We built a barndominium - the term didnt really exist then, but that is what it is. It was offgrid, but we got electricity a few years later. We still do rainwater collection. Propane, wood, and electricity for heat. It is a great DIY project. We had a crew pour the slab, and a local rancher and his welding rig did the iron framing. We put up the walls and roof amd everything else. Things get dried in pretty quickly, which means you can sort of build the interior on your own, amd leave building supplies inside pit ofnthe weather and away from minor thieves. We've had stuff stolen, but never a break in. Honor amongst the methheads.

Electricity: I built my cabin in the most private and prettiest piece. In retrospect I should have maybe prioritized access and electricity. You gotta have electricity. Maybe solar and batteries will be cost competitive soon. But the reality is the ac sometimes has to run 24/7. Without it, it's basically not habitable when it's hot. So a battrry bank is key if all solar. A big enough system that can run ac all day and still top off the batteries should probably be grid tied so that you are selling them volts. 

You could run a generator, but that's noisy and can get stolen. Our little Honda 2000 was stolen. One small bedroom inside our cabin is insulated even in the interior ceiling and walls, so that we had a cool place for overnighter even in the summer with our little genny. If you are in the mountains and the summer is nice, and all you need is heat from wood or propane then maybe electric isn't so critical and a small off grid system would be easy. 

It always made me wonder why rural folks will have a huge spread, but their house is 80 ft off the highway. That's because running utilities is expensive. My original quote from the electric coop to run a pole to my cabin was like 18k. More than the slab and metal building cost itself! That's for like 1100 ft. They only would do 1 "bend" of the line. So figure out where the closest line is. They later changed the cost to be more for the first and last pole, and less for the line in the middle. Thay brought the cost down to like 10k. We pulled the trigger. Call or email the coop- they should be able tontell you basic costs ahead of any survey. They said my neighbor had to approve. So we asked kindly. I'm not sure what I would have done if the neighbor said no. I'd have been screwed.

Access: the original 35ac crossed a creek. Now that I bought some more for the same neighbor, I could have avoided that. Not a huge deal, but it does require a truck or realish SUV to drive up to the cabin. Th3 creek floods sometimes, but usually not for a couple of hours. It's a recreational property, I just don't go up when it's that wet.

The county now has subdivision regs, for things like the size and access, etc. That would impact resale, if the resale market is looking at cutting things into smaller lots.

If you do a metal roof, and you probably will, then rainwater collection is easy. If you pour a slab, pour a couple pads for tanks. Locate them close to the gutter downspout. A single slope roof makes collecting rainwater easier. 

We wired for both 12v and 110v. To be honest, I think I could have run conduit and just had a spiderbox for electric distribution. It's all in the walls now, but I worry about ever having to chase down problems. 

Except for septic, Texas regs pretty much don't care about rainwater collection, solar, or in rural areas much of anything for building plans. County folks have never been to my cabin. But we are honest about the tax appraisal and anyway they use satellite photos to estimate buildings. 

[Orale 1112]

This past year I put in a new well and new septic on raw land we have in the hill country. I'm happy to share whatever you want to know. We have power from the county, but I have a large grid-connected solar system on my primary house in the city so I know a bit about that. Our well is on a hilltop, so we had to go 800 ft deep which cost about $50k. The septic was pretty reasonable at $15k. Because our land has hard rock a foot under the soil, we had to do an aerobic (electric/mechanical) rather than a conventional passive septic system which is ideal. Permitting for both was pretty straightforward. If you can find land with an existing water source, that would save you a lot of headaches as water is key no matter where you find land imo. 

[CleverNickname 1335]

To follow up on Orale: he spent $65K but probably increased the vale of the land by way more than that. It isn't money flushed down the toilet.

Of course... that doesn't reduce the sting if the intention is to sit and enjoy the land for another 30 years. And know this: raw land loans are murder.  I'm talking 8.5% with a 5 year ballon. Maybe 9.5% on a more conventional term. Suddenly a nice 300k acreage is like $2500 per month. Ouch.

[Guest]

Two initial questions:

1. @CleverNickname Can you tell me about pouring the slab? You have the casita in the hill country, right? How thick is the slab and how deep did you have to go down? I'm imagining a real pain in the ass to level everything out with it being rock? Also, what about plumbing? Did you have to trench under where the slab would be and then rough in plumbing? How much planning went into the design of your build before you poured slab?

2. Any links or info on septic? I know the very very general basics but don't know the differences between systems, depths, sizes, leech field specifics, etc.

[CleverNickname 1335]

@FirstTimeCaller

1. I am not a slab expert, but we had a local help. Just a rancher handyman moonlighting to keep busy and his part-time hired hand more fully employed. Mostly handshake deals. A couple years later I saw him at the bimonthly county auction. Half his face had melted off. Accident at his hay barn. Nice guy.

As for design, I think we used sketches in Google docs. Basic as hell. Nithing that would pass for plan review, but this is Texas daggum. Ours is 20x30 with a 2 inch lip down to a 10x30 porch. Roof is 34x34. I may later enclose the porch and put in another 10x30 porch. But I didn't plan it that way... I may have to move.the front door around. 

Leveled with a front loader, an extending carpenters level, and beer. Not too much rock my way at the surface, but I imagine putting a cabin on Kingsland granite is a pain in the ass.

I think the slab is like 8". I think the edges are deeper. I know there was a moisture barrier and rebar on chairs. The forms were just 2x nominal lumber and rebar spikes. Nothin' fancy. We roughed in a shower and a toilet drain in one corner. The other side of the interior wall is the kitchen, and I think it maybe just drains out the wall. Rough ins are way easier than you may think. Put in the pvc first, leave room for a toilet flange, and pour. You just want your toilet to be 12 inches from the inside wall, framing and drywall included. Decide now if you are doing 2x4 or 2x6 width walls. The shower and sink drains will meet up with the toilet just underground outside the slab and hit the septic tank a few feet away. We have a pvc that comes up through the slab for the water intake. Pex was later threaded through it from the water collection tank. A 12v motor home pump moves the water. Now that we have electricity the same pump is connected by alligator clips to a 110 inverter. 

If I was building a bigger place, I'd spend a lot of time with plans. I think a little 4x8 utility room, with the kitchen and 2 bathrooms adjacent would be awesome. Put all the wet together. You want it on the side with the septic. Hide the instant on propane water heater and the water pump (and uv filtering if going fancy). Try to maximize usefulness and minimize plumbing, if that makes sense. Keep any leaks to one specific spot, that has easy access. Diy plumbing with pex is easy, but centralize the water and plumbing.

While the slab was wet we put in metal plates to weld the metal frame on along the perimeter. 

2. Not sure if you can avoid septic permits anymore. So that probably means a little bit of up front cost for survey and design. To that end: you probably can't be too close to a well, creek, or pond. So choose your building site carefully. 

One way to go is a septic, slab, roughed in plumbing, and barndo shell with adjacent shop. That is your RV/trailer hookup you can stay in as you build your own place. And if you had to sell, land with a good to go RV hookup will sell.

[troph 24929]

I had a response typed up but thought nah I'm not understanding some part of it but turns out clever said somethings I was going to say - off the grid without electric in these parts is nearly impossible. We don't live in an off the grid location but are pretty aggressive on self-reliance. we have a 65,000 rain water collection system, enough solar to run most of the house most of the day (if it's sunny) and 2 batteries allowing us to store 24 kWh for overnight. If it's not sunny, or its winter sunny, the peak solar isn't as good as you would want it. In the summer it's fantastic but even your night time use will far outstrip your battery capacity. We use ducted mini-splits and in ceiling min-split cartridges for HVAC and they are super quiet and a major increase in efficiency, so that can help. We also used insulated concrete forms (ICF) and you could consider that - it's really great in the places with few windows. Septic too. But as I look around, our ability to be self-reliant is very, very difficult because of the electricity needs. 

[Guest]

We're mainly toying with the idea of a spot with a couple of small homes (one for us, one for guests). Looking around, we find very little that's already built that is a style that we like so the idea of building from scratch seems to be the winning idea so far. It's definitely more of a dream than a reality at this point. I feel pretty confident I could build something decent once I have a starting point. It's the getting to the point where you have water, electric, and septic all ready to go that I've never done before.

[Lat22 4053]

[CleverNickname 1335]

If it is weekend and rec use, a small rainwater collection is fine. Full time use you need troph's badass system or a well. I think well depth records are searchable, or at least someone in the county knows and can ballpark an estimate. Septic you can quote on pretty easily. Find out the nearest power line and make contact with the power company. The key to most of the above is having a knowledgeable local you can trust.

The hard part is you may need the cash (or cash out equity on your primary home) for the well ($15 to 50k), electricity ($5 to $30k), and septic ($5 to $25k).

[ROFL BOX 6650]

Re: slab, pay attention to the slope of the land. Try NOT to have it too skinny on the "up-side" (high-end of the land slope). Have enough slab so any water running downhill will not wash on top of the slab.

A 6 inch "turn-down" around the perimeter is common. Don't go cheap on the slab by setting it thin. Think worst case scenario type flood.

Also, run electricity underground (vs. a swing) where possible.

• Ø tree falling branches or whatevs to cause damage
• Looks cleaner, better resale.
• Note the distance from the eventual far end of the building & discuss with the co-op or a competent & licensed electrician. Typically you get a max 150 ft. before voltage drop becomes an issue.
• As Clever said, do 120 & 240 v from the start because "you never know" when someone wants to plug in a welder & the cost to upgrade later is crazy compared to up front expenses.

[Gil Bang 26101]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:55 AM, CleverNickname said:

Ha!

Yes we bought land in about 2007. Originally 34ac, now up to 75. Unincorporated Mills County, so very few regs. Probably the only real regs are requiring a permit for septic. That wasn't even true until a couple of years later.

We built a barndominium - the term didnt really exist then, but that is what it is. It was offgrid, but we got electricity a few years later. We still do rainwater collection. Propane, wood, and electricity for heat. It is a great DIY project. We had a crew pour the slab, and a local rancher and his welding rig did the iron framing. We put up the walls and roof amd everything else. Things get dried in pretty quickly, which means you can sort of build the interior on your own, amd leave building supplies inside pit ofnthe weather and away from minor thieves. We've had stuff stolen, but never a break in. Honor amongst the methheads.

Electricity: I built my cabin in the most private and prettiest piece. In retrospect I should have maybe prioritized access and electricity. You gotta have electricity. Maybe solar and batteries will be cost competitive soon. But the reality is the ac sometimes has to run 24/7. Without it, it's basically not habitable when it's hot. So a battrry bank is key if all solar. A big enough system that can run ac all day and still top off the batteries should probably be grid tied so that you are selling them volts. 

You could run a generator, but that's noisy and can get stolen. Our little Honda 2000 was stolen. One small bedroom inside our cabin is insulated even in the interior ceiling and walls, so that we had a cool place for overnighter even in the summer with our little genny. If you are in the mountains and the summer is nice, and all you need is heat from wood or propane then maybe electric isn't so critical and a small off grid system would be easy. 

It always made me wonder why rural folks will have a huge spread, but their house is 80 ft off the highway. That's because running utilities is expensive. My original quote from the electric coop to run a pole to my cabin was like 18k. More than the slab and metal building cost itself! That's for like 1100 ft. They only would do 1 "bend" of the line. So figure out where the closest line is. They later changed the cost to be more for the first and last pole, and less for the line in the middle. Thay brought the cost down to like 10k. We pulled the trigger. Call or email the coop- they should be able tontell you basic costs ahead of any survey. They said my neighbor had to approve. So we asked kindly. I'm not sure what I would have done if the neighbor said no. I'd have been screwed.

Access: the original 35ac crossed a creek. Now that I bought some more for the same neighbor, I could have avoided that. Not a huge deal, but it does require a truck or realish SUV to drive up to the cabin. Th3 creek floods sometimes, but usually not for a couple of hours. It's a recreational property, I just don't go up when it's that wet.

The county now has subdivision regs, for things like the size and access, etc. That would impact resale, if the resale market is looking at cutting things into smaller lots.

If you do a metal roof, and you probably will, then rainwater collection is easy. If you pour a slab, pour a couple pads for tanks. Locate them close to the gutter downspout. A single slope roof makes collecting rainwater easier. 

We wired for both 12v and 110v. To be honest, I think I could have run conduit and just had a spiderbox for electric distribution. It's all in the walls now, but I worry about ever having to chase down problems. 

Except for septic, Texas regs pretty much don't care about rainwater collection, solar, or in rural areas much of anything for building plans. County folks have never been to my cabin. But we are honest about the tax appraisal and anyway they use satellite photos to estimate buildings. 

Are you the guy that had a switch for your pump that had "pump" written on it in sharpie?

If so, that was a fun project to follow, and it turned out pretty cool IIRC

[CleverNickname 1335]

We've upgraded... to laminated pieces of paper. The drywall still ain't taped or floated, though.

[troph 24929]

11 hours ago, CleverNickname said:

If it is weekend and rec use, a small rainwater collection is fine. Full time use you need troph's badass system or a well. I think well depth records are searchable, or at least someone in the county knows and can ballpark an estimate. Septic you can quote on pretty easily. Find out the nearest power line and make contact with the power company. The key to most of the above is having a knowledgeable local you can trust.

The hard part is you may need the cash (or cash out equity on your primary home) for the well ($15 to 50k), electricity ($5 to $30k), and septic ($5 to $25k).

As long as you don’t build a concrete basement cistern like a couple of unsuspecting nitwits (looking in the mirror) the rain water system could be far cheaper than a well depending on depth. The filtration system which you would need anyway is only a few thousand bucks. You need a roof no matter what, gutters too, so it’s just the tanks and the pump really (you need the pump too for that matter). Average family is going to come in around 3000 or so gallons per month before any exterior use like irrigation or a pool. You can adjust and extrapolate for part time use. You do the math and figure out how much tank space you need and the roof space you need based on rain totals and expected use and you effectively build to that. For aesthetics I’d recommend a buried tank or one hidden by exterior fencing or walls. In the end rain water is far superior for taste and impact on your home, the issue is feasibility. If it’s feasible do it and don’t look back. 

Edited January 10 by troph

[RPM 26431]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:55 AM, CleverNickname said:

It always made me wonder why rural folks will have a huge spread, but their house is 80 ft off the highway. That's because running utilities is expensive. My original quote from the electric coop to run a pole to my cabin was like 18k. More than the slab and metal building cost itself! That's for like 1100 ft. They only would do 1 "bend" of the line. So figure out where the closest line is. They later changed the cost to be more for the first and last pole, and less for the line in the middle. Thay brought the cost down to like 10k. We pulled the trigger. Call or email the coop- they should be able tontell you basic costs ahead of any survey. They said my neighbor had to approve. So we asked kindly. I'm not sure what I would have done if the neighbor said no. I'd have been screwed.

When I put my house in in 2001 I had to run electricity. They would run the first 100 yds to the meter free. I put in an imaginary future barn then ran another meter 100 yds away where the house was going. Paid the $12 fee for 6 months then cancelled the first meter. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, troph said:

As long as you don’t build a concrete basement cistern like a couple of unsuspecting nitwits (looking in the mirror) the rain water system could be far cheaper than a well depending on depth. The filtration system which you would need anyway is only a few thousand bucks. You need a roof no matter what, gutters too, so it’s just the tanks and the pump really (you need the pump too for that matter). Average family is going to come in around 3000 or so gallons per month before any exterior use like irrigation or a pool. You can adjust and extrapolate for part time use. You do the math and figure out how much tank space you need and the roof space you need based on rain totals and expected use and you effectively build to that. For aesthetics I’d recommend a buried tank or one hidden by exterior fencing or walls. In the end rain water is far superior for taste and impact on your home, the issue is feasibility. If it’s feasible do it and don’t look back. 

Did you build the system or have a company do it? If you, what sort of resources did you use to learn about it.

This stuff is great. I'd love a book that lays everything out that I can digest with diagrams, etc. There are all sorts of these for homebuilding, electrical, plumbing, but I have yet to find one for things like putting in septic or foundations.

[immamac 43593]

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-ess-14-3-28-6kwh-capacity-eg4-18kpv-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-ul9540/
 

15k delivered. DIY install if you aren’t a potato and you can charge with solar or a generator input with no grid tie. 

[troph 24929]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-ess-14-3-28-6kwh-capacity-eg4-18kpv-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-ul9540/
 

15k delivered. DIY install if you aren’t a potato and you can charge with solar or a generator input with no grid tie. 

Depending on size of the house and usage that’s not a lot of battery power storage. Number of solar panels is an issue and then how much you can draw on the batteries. For example we have a 24 kWh system comprised of 2 batteries. In the summer it will be 100% full by 2pm, that's great but we probably don't have enough - both draw and total capacity. In our case each battery can handle 30amps of draw. That’s pretty damn limited for a home. RV set ups are 50 amps usually. We have 2 so 60amps draw is available and there are appliances and features we cannot use and those we can we have to be careful not to overload the system. Then assuming you aren’t overloading the draw at any one time you have total power available for cloudy days and evenings. We usually run dry by midnight in the summer and early morning in fall and spring. in the winter we often don't have enough overnight because of the weather. Solar and battery back up is awesome but it is also severely limited in many ways. You have to be prepared for real outages if you use solar and if you don’t plan correctly you can have routine outages with no back up power. with reliable backup power solar and batteries can be seamless.

Edited January 10 by troph

[troph 24929]

4 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Did you build the system or have a company do it? If you, what sort of resources did you use to learn about it.

This stuff is great. I'd love a book that lays everything out that I can digest with diagrams, etc. There are all sorts of these for homebuilding, electrical, plumbing, but I have yet to find one for things like putting in septic or foundations.

my wife is a home builder - pretty high end one - and she bulit our house. that said it was her first time at trying "green luxury" so we did learn a lot. the goal was to make the home as self reliant as possible but with it all "hidden" and seamless to the user. We have a two floor home, upside down built into a hill. so street level (well 8 feet below street level) is the top and first floor. There is a dug out "basement" second floor with a den and kids rooms and another office but half of that floor has a two foot thick rebar enforced wall to create a cistern for rain water. consider it like its own rooms on that floor but without access from that floor. It functions as a huge tank. it's under the garage, kitchen, and a part of our dining room which are all top floor along with my office, living and our master bedroom and bath. Access is a hatch in the garage. Our roof line is a butterfly roof then a shed roof, so like this --> \/ \  Note \ / = butterfly and \ = shed.

each of those roof lines forces water to the "V" of the butterfly roof and the outer side of the shed roof. There is a traditional gutter on the shed roof and 3 drains in the trough of the butterfly roof. The drains are 3-4 inch PVC pipe that run through the walls and carry the rain water to the garage cistern where the water flows in.  The gutter on the shed drains water to the part of the home that is the subfloor between first and second floor and then runs the same 3-4 inch PVC pipe to the garage through the subfloor across the house. That shed roof gutter does not go all the way down to the ground to release water.

Now all water is in the cistern which is coated with a potable water grade coating that is water proof.  The gutter and drain system has a filter to collect large debris and dirt before dumping into the cistern. From there we have an aerator to keep the water fresh, no light so no algae, etc. the cistern is sealed so no critters, and we have a sensor for our home assistant smart home stuff to show amount of gallons remaining.

When we use it, the pump pushes water to the pressurized tank, then pushes the pressurized water through two filters for particulates and then a UV light filter and out to the home.  From that point forward it acts no different than "city" water - except - it tastes great, and it does not have any minerals/deposits including additives or calcium, lime, or anything else to cause scale or spotting issues. Our dishes are spotless with regular detergent, our shower glass doesn't spot, just really really happy with rain water. 

I do want to add RO to the drinking water, given the recent discovery that even rain water has PFAS, so that was a major downer because I thought we were avoiding all the crap in city water. we do avoid a lot, but probably not everything if those studies are accurate (which I assume they are).

she did consult with a distributor of products, a one stop shop if I recall. we originally had a thick liner but decided that was a mess, so we painted on the water proof potable water grade coating instead. but special items are the tanks, the coating if you need one, the pump, sensor, the drain filters, the pressure tank and the filtration system.

it's super cool.

Edited January 10 by troph

[CleverNickname 1335]

My rough estimate is that 14kw should power a 10,000 btu AC for about 10 or 12 hours. Maybe less if you arent supposed to go below 20 or 30%. I could be way off, im no engineer. Will you need to replace it in 10 or 20 years? Prices and capacity are improving fast, but I'm not sure it beats my $48/mo electricity cost on $8k install. It will eventually, I bet. But then if you could sell back power, the solar cells could probably help pay for themselves if grid tied. Sort of shame for kw of solar just sitting out there, doing nothing. 

But modern advances in batteries makes off grid far easier. If you had something > 1 mile from a line, if was formerly about impossible to get economical power. Now you can. That's really cool for the boonies. Again though: off grid is best where you can do wood & propane heat, and electric isn't so damn important. 

I will also say this, down below ground, deep deep, where the worm people whisper, requires no power to cool or heat at all. Mother earth's coddling bosom. It calls to me. Does it call for you, too?

[troph 24929]

47 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

My rough estimate is that 14kw should power a 10,000 btu AC for about 10 or 12 hours. Maybe less if you arent supposed to go below 20 or 30%. I could be way off, im no engineer. Will you need to replace it in 10 or 20 years? Prices and capacity are improving fast, but I'm not sure it beats my $48/mo electricity cost on $8k install. It will eventually, I bet. But then if you could sell back power, the solar cells could probably help pay for themselves if grid tied. Sort of shame for kw of solar just sitting out there, doing nothing. 

But modern advances in batteries makes off grid far easier. If you had something > 1 mile from a line, if was formerly about impossible to get economical power. Now you can. That's really cool for the boonies. Again though: off grid is best where you can do wood & propane heat, and electric isn't so damn important. 

I will also say this, down below ground, deep deep, where the worm people whisper, requires no power to cool or heat at all. Mother earth's coddling bosom. It calls to me. Does it call for you, too?

general rule yes you don't go below 20% for reserves also general longevity I was told.

As I mentioned four factors - (1) sunlight (it's own reliability concerns), (2) capacity to collect from the solar panels, (3) capacity to store with the batteries, and (4) the load the batteries can handle. we are not living in a ranch casita or rustic ranch house lacking electrical amenities, but my limited experience is without grid power, solar is too expensive and unreliable to obtain reliable power, mostly due to the sun's reliability but also significantly limited by battery limitations - capacity and load.  I mentioned our batteries are 30amps each, for 60 total. RVs are often 50amps, and most homes are 200amps. add a pool you often go to 300amps. add car chargers like ours (we have 3 set up and only use 1) and we are at 400amps per PEC. that's all silly, it's rare to draw on that at any level, but it gives you a comparison regarding how electric companies design power capacity for homes. you are talking low amperage with batteries compared to what the reliable electric grid would provide to your home. it can cause issues.

as for the cool, stable temps in your hole - I can tell you this - our basement is insulated concrete on all sides, some but limited windows, and half of it backs into the earth 12+ feet below grade or backs up to the cistern (water is a cool 65 degrees nearly year round because the cistern is concrete and backs up to the earth 12+ feet below grade). We have mini-splits for HVAC and with no adjustments, in the summer it remains 72-75 and in the coldest winter snaps at 10-15 degrees with no heater running we maintain 55 or so. So yes, below grade is a major, major insulator against cold and heat. if you want to be off grid for real, building into a substantial hill is incredibly useful. highly recommend.

Edited January 10 by troph

[Nice Guy Eddie 13562]

OP - you're probably doing it already but I would search youtube. There is almost certainly many people posting videos of doing exactly what you want. People love making youtube channels because youtube revenue has the potential for paying for the entire project, if they can make informative/entertaining videos.

[immamac 43593]

1 hour ago, troph said:

Depending on size of the house and usage that’s not a lot of battery power storage. Number of solar panels is an issue and then how much you can draw on the batteries. For example we have a 24 kWh system comprised of 2 batteries. In the summer it will be 100% full by 2pm, that's great but we probably don't have enough - both draw and total capacity. In our case each battery can handle 30amps of draw. That’s pretty damn limited for a home. RV set ups are 50 amps usually. We have 2 so 60amps draw is available and there are appliances and features we cannot use and those we can we have to be careful not to overload the system. Then assuming you aren’t overloading the draw at any one time you have total power available for cloudy days and evenings. We usually run dry by midnight in the summer and early morning in fall and spring. in the winter we often don't have enough overnight because of the weather. Solar and battery back up is awesome but it is also severely limited in many ways. You have to be prepared for real outages if you use solar and if you don’t plan correctly you can have routine outages with no back up power. with reliable backup power solar and batteries can be seamless.

considering that these batteries are rated to output 280A each (at 1 C discharge rate) and you can support continuous 200A service with the 18k inverter I don't think this is a concern. Even with high draw circuits and you can add batteries well into the 120kWh+ using this set up. Not trying to be contrarian and your advice is sound, but this inverter and battery system is for 200A continuous service with grid tie if you want it. So is the Sol Ark 15k, but this one seems to be a better deal overall.  This isn't some slapdick ecoflow delta or lead acid setup it's the latest tech on the safest and best battery chemistry available. 

[Tailgate 3027]

Check out my buddies blog. Was my web developer at 18 years-old until he bought 30-acres of land in Terlingua for $1,500 20 years ago.

Built his own home with raw materials found nearby there and then moved to the chihuahua mountains in Mexico and did the same thing there with his wife he met in Terlingua.

They now have two boys and are on 100+ acres in Elgin to be closer to his mom…but doing the same thing. The right way.

http://velacreations.com

 

 

[troph 24929]

2 hours ago, immamac said:

considering that these batteries are rated to output 280A each (at 1 C discharge rate) and you can support continuous 200A service with the 18k inverter I don't think this is a concern. Even with high draw circuits and you can add batteries well into the 120kWh+ using this set up. Not trying to be contrarian and your advice is sound, but this inverter and battery system is for 200A continuous service with grid tie if you want it. So is the Sol Ark 15k, but this one seems to be a better deal overall.  This isn't some slapdick ecoflow delta or lead acid setup it's the latest tech on the safest and best battery chemistry available. 

I’m a lawyer there is odd math in electricity discussions so fuck me running don’t look to me to evaluate specific products. In this case I could not decipher the specs. The concerns to consider always matter - it’s possible the solutions presented solve for those concerns. In this case amps. But every battery system will have capacity and load concerns you have to address. And that’s nothing to say about the panels and their ability to harness an inconsistent sun. 

 

[immamac 43593]

6 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m a lawyer there is odd math in electricity discussions so fuck me running don’t look to me to evaluate specific products. In this case I could not decipher the specs. The concerns to consider always matter - it’s possible the solutions presented solve for those concerns. In this case amps. But every battery system will have capacity and load concerns you have to address. And that’s nothing to say about the panels and their ability to harness an inconsistent sun. 

 

Spot on. 

[RDCanecutter 26564]

In the original Dark Shadows, Barnabas fixed up the Old House and lived there with no electricity or running water.

Of course, he had his Vampire's Assistant Slave to help out. Having an unpaid helper is very historically accurate.

So all you need is an abandoned mansion, a few mind-controlled servants, and about a thousand blue candles. If you want me to scout around, I'll see what I can find.

 

[thunderlounge 8041]

In the next 5-7 years I'm looking to do something similar in concept, but as a permanent residence. I already have the land, and paid for, so that's one less thing.

I've considered the split option like you mentioned, main place with a guest cabin. With building and material prices the way they are right now, I've been planning on going a similar route as Clever's, and doing a barndo/shouse/whatever you want to call it. A metal building house. Not sure if it will be cheaper to go single story or have a second level, but I have a few different layouts that can fit in either way.

Instead of a fully separate guest cabin, I'm going to put it all under one roof. Main living space on one end, garage and pool/atrium room (like 12x24, fiberglass) in the middle, with a small guest suite (bed, bath, living room with a little kitchenette) on the other end. Depth of the building will be 50ft or 60ft, and width will depend on whether or not there's a second floor. Doesn't matter to me, single floor and longer is probably cheaper and fine with me. Easier later in life anyway.

Anyway, here for the ride and to learn/share anything I can.

 

[Hornbeliever 723]

On 1/8/2024 at 7:06 AM, Orale said:

This past year I put in a new well and new septic on raw land we have in the hill country. I'm happy to share whatever you want to know. We have power from the county, but I have a large grid-connected solar system on my primary house in the city so I know a bit about that. Our well is on a hilltop, so we had to go 800 ft deep which cost about $50k. The septic was pretty reasonable at $15k. Because our land has hard rock a foot under the soil, we had to do an aerobic (electric/mechanical) rather than a conventional passive septic system which is ideal. Permitting for both was pretty straightforward. If you can find land with an existing water source, that would save you a lot of headaches as water is key no matter where you find land imo. 

@OraleNot sure how advanced you are on building and such but feel free to post your construction journey.  This stuff always interests me and I'm sure some others.

I posted about buying raw land on hornfans or shaggy many years ago.  I remember leaving thread not as motivated and over a decade later, I'm super displeased I stopped looking (and partly because of that thread).  I ended up buying some land with a house in Fayetteville that I love years later but I was looking at winchester/round top area for raw land around 2010 and all that area has blown up in that time. 

I even thought about buying lots of land in Tahitian village after the fire in 2011 but talked myself out of it so f me because that place is back to being nice and the $ returns would have been crazy.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13562]

5 hours ago, Hornbeliever said:

@OraleNot sure how advanced you are on building and such but feel free to post your construction journey.  This stuff always interests me and I'm sure some others.

I posted about buying raw land on hornfans or shaggy many years ago.  I remember leaving thread not as motivated and over a decade later, I'm super displeased I stopped looking (and partly because of that thread).  I ended up buying some land with a house in Fayetteville that I love years later but I was looking at winchester/round top area for raw land around 2010 and all that area has blown up in that time. 

I even thought about buying lots of land in Tahitian village after the fire in 2011 but talked myself out of it so f me because that place is back to being nice and the $ returns would have been crazy.  

I wouldn’t beat yourself up about not making an investment. Putting your money into almost anything in 2011 would have led to a nice payday now.

[baboso 6057]

12 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I wouldn’t beat yourself up about not making an investment. Putting your money into almost anything in 2011 would have led to a nice payday now.

Except being a passive investor in a BBQ restaurant or trailer.

[Orale 1112]

18 hours ago, Hornbeliever said:

@OraleNot sure how advanced you are on building and such but feel free to post your construction journey.  This stuff always interests me and I'm sure some others.

I posted about buying raw land on hornfans or shaggy many years ago.  I remember leaving thread not as motivated and over a decade later, I'm super displeased I stopped looking (and partly because of that thread).  I ended up buying some land with a house in Fayetteville that I love years later but I was looking at winchester/round top area for raw land around 2010 and all that area has blown up in that time. 

I even thought about buying lots of land in Tahitian village after the fire in 2011 but talked myself out of it so f me because that place is back to being nice and the $ returns would have been crazy.  

Here's a link to the tiny house project I did on our land this year. It was a pretty straightforward process. 

 

 

[morehornsepower 887]

22 hours ago, thunderlounge said:

In the next 5-7 years I'm looking to do something similar in concept, but as a permanent residence. I already have the land, and paid for, so that's one less thing.

I've considered the split option like you mentioned, main place with a guest cabin. With building and material prices the way they are right now, I've been planning on going a similar route as Clever's, and doing a barndo/shouse/whatever you want to call it. A metal building house. Not sure if it will be cheaper to go single story or have a second level, but I have a few different layouts that can fit in either way.

Instead of a fully separate guest cabin, I'm going to put it all under one roof. Main living space on one end, garage and pool/atrium room (like 12x24, fiberglass) in the middle, with a small guest suite (bed, bath, living room with a little kitchenette) on the other end. Depth of the building will be 50ft or 60ft, and width will depend on whether or not there's a second floor. Doesn't matter to me, single floor and longer is probably cheaper and fine with me. Easier later in life anyway.

Anyway, here for the ride and to learn/share anything I can.

 

thunder, I don't know you from adam/eve, but I am in a similar situation, and brewed up a comparable idea on the isolated-but-still-one-structure guest house.  We're probably 3-4 years out.  Single story, barndominum, main living on one end, big garage/workspace in the middle, and guest quarters on the opposite side of the garage.

Been using an app (Keyplan 3D) to draw up ideas as they come to me.

[thunderlounge 8041]

1 hour ago, morehornsepower said:

thunder, I don't know you from adam/eve, but I am in a similar situation, and brewed up a comparable idea on the isolated-but-still-one-structure guest house.  We're probably 3-4 years out.  Single story, barndominum, main living on one end, big garage/workspace in the middle, and guest quarters on the opposite side of the garage.

Been using an app (Keyplan 3D) to draw up ideas as they come to me.

Nice. 
 

I’ve been using drawIO, just to lay out basics. 
 

First I’ll look at general floor plans, then mark up similar layouts but within a barndo-friendly footprint.

One area I’m fuzzy in is cost differences. Not that there is a difference, but by how much. For example, how much of an increase for a second floor on the main living side, or a basement. Obviously more than single level, and basement more than second story, but how much of a difference? 

On top of that, finishing costs. Obviously living areas are a lot more to finish out, but what’s the difference there? Still need walls and such. 
 

I think my biggest hurdle is the wife. She has this idea we need all this space for all the company we rarely have now. Granted in the new location, which is about an hour away, we probably would have company more often for a weekend, and certainly a crowd for holidays and such.

I think this is all probably made worse by being in the spot where I’m not really comfortable calling around for general pricing info for general purpose.

Some of the work I can do myself, but a lot of it is going to be out of my skill set or ability. I can paint and shit like that, I can frame, run cable runs to be hooked up. But finish work and visual stuff like that I’m just not good enough at for something on this scale.

Plus with a construction loan, time is of the essence. Which I also need to dig more into those as well, specifically timing of them.

It’s kind of fun at times though. Getting an idea, wondering if something exists, if it would be feasible to add if it does exist, etc.

Example: self-opening doors. They obviously exist, but is there something I could put in a house? Something I could put between the garage and main house, so if your hands are full and you're trying to get in the house, much easier than fumbling and dropping your goods. Question is, is it worth the cost?

Little shit like that. A lot of thinking about being older, what can I plan now that makes things easier later in life. If multiple levels are going to be in play, what would an in-home elevator run me? Would that be worth it over building a bigger single level? Not sure I want to go trekking up and down stairs like that at 80, just to get to my office or whatever.

So far it’s been more of a “something to look into” while enjoying the end of the evening down time. Been interesting so far, and a looooong way to go. 

[ROFL BOX 6650]

Not sure if it will be cheaper to go single story or have a second level,

single floor and longer is probably cheaper
 

Concrete is more expensive than lumber.

A 3,000 sq. ft. stick built structure will be more expensive in 1 story than identical sq. ft. in 2 story.

Also, if you can swing the up front costs - full masonry exterior & a Snap Lock¹ metal roof + fiber cement trim is your longest lasting / least maintenance design.

Despite the cost, put in a thicker / taller slab (within reason) to prevent flooding (as noted ).

Spray foam insulation under the roof (no matter whst product is on top) is very energy efficient however if a leak ever appears, it is near impossible to find the point of origin.

¹Always avoid a Double Lock / Standing Seam panel.

²Even if you are using an "R Panel / Ag Panel" wall, if you *absolutely* have to use an exposed fastener metal roof, put on a properly installed Channel Guard for the roof. But... a Snap Lock panel should be around 5 ~ 7% more in cost, so use Snaps when possible.

[thunderlounge 8041]

2 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

Concrete is more expensive than lumber.

A 3,000 sq. ft. stick built structure will be more expensive in 1 story than identical sq. ft. in 2 story.

Also, if you can swing the up front costs - full masonry exterior & a Snap Lock¹ metal roof + fiber cement trim is your longest lasting / least maintenance design.

Despite the cost, put in a thicker / taller slab (within reason) to prevent flooding (as noted ).

 

This is just me kind of thinking out loud, so bear with me for a bit. @FirstTimeCaller, if I'm fucking up your mojo, say so. Happy to start a different thread.

With the ideas/concepts I have now, I'd be looking at somewhere between a 6k and 8k sqft pour. That's all of it. Living, garage/shop, the whole shebang. Sqft depends on single or two story, overall layout, etc. (My middle area for the garage/shop and pool area would be somewhere around 60x40. I may be estimating a bit high, but not by much if so.)

If the cost of concrete is substantially higher, would it be possible to instead put the garage/shop on slab, with the rest on either pier/beam or a crawlspace? Would the difference be a little, a lot, or in between? I mean sure, It can be built however. That doesn't mean it would be right, or any good though.

If that were a possibility, then if there were a step up from the garage/shop into the other areas, that's fine. It's 2 steps up from my garage now. But would that be a good choice? Guesstimate on potential % of cost savings over full slab at that size, if any?

Just to note, I'd be buying a metal building, which includes metal roof and walls. Roof is the snap type, not sure about the sides. Interior framing and such is stick, of course.

Looking at something kind of like these:

 

 

Both of these would have main living on the left, shop/pool middle, guest on the right (vice a 3rd door on the second one.)

I have a lot of other layouts, and not really married to any of them. More aligned to the things I will have, and then the things I would like to have. Being this is what should be my forever home, compromises will be as few as possible within the financial sandbox I set for myself.

[Guest]

Nice conversation. Checked out some books at the library on concrete foundations and some relatively small/nearly off-grid houses. I know YouTube is full of the stuff but man I don't know if I can take sitting through a 14 minute video for the two minutes of good info I'm really looking for.

One idea I'm tossing around is do a house built of concrete brick. Something I can do on my own time and is practically weatherproof. Hail? No big deal. Ice storm? Ain't going to hurt it. Roof leak? No drywall to repair. Pipe burst? Just dry it off. 

[ROFL BOX 6650]

Nice conversation. Checked out some books at the library on concrete foundations and some relatively small/nearly off-grid houses. I know YouTube is full of the stuff but man I don't know if I can take sitting through a 14 minute video for the two minutes of good info I'm really looking for.

One idea I'm tossing around is do a house built of concrete brick. Something I can do on my own time and is practically weatherproof. Hail? No big deal. Ice storm? Ain't going to hurt it. Roof leak? No drywall to repair. Pipe burst? Just dry it off. 

South Florida & "CBS¹" has entered the chat.

¹Concrete, Block & Stucco.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

South Florida & "CBS¹" has entered the chat.

¹Concrete, Block & Stucco.

Exactly. I was thinking more Yucatan/Central American building. Low-cost, low maintenance, low worry.