Ski Season 17/18

[texasdago 7568]

So, there are 

1 hour ago, Biscuits And Groovy said:

Hey, you ever do much skiing at Val Di Fiemme? It's a trip I've always wanted to take but never have really had the chance. Thinking maybe next December/January I might want to take a New Year's trip to Italy and check it out. It looks amazing but I also cant tell based on the map if the runs are short or if the ski area is just massive. I've also never skied in Europe, so I don't know how it compares to Colorado and Utah.

There are definitely differences between skiing in Europe and Colorado/Utah.  The first thing you'll notice is that treeline is much lower.  That means you can end up with massive areas above treeline.  On nicer days, it is absolutely glorious.  On crappier days, you need good polarized goggles... just learn how the run markers work and you'll be fine.   Also, much of Europe handles "off piste" or out of bounds differently than the U.S.  For example, look at the Val di Fiemme trail map.  You see all those marked runs?  Those are marked and controlled runs... probably groomed.  The reality is that you can probably ski wherever the F you want and go out of bounds.  You're on your own and responsible for yourself.  The only times they may restrain where you can go is when the avalanche risk is 4 or greater.  

 

So, what does the off piste mean?  Well, look at this picture...

If you look at the trail map for Courmayeur - https://www.onthesnow.com/aosta-valley/courmayeur/trailmap.html - the picture was taken from the top of the Cresta Youla cable car (top left of the trail map) and is right under the Cresta d'Arp cable car (the cable is directly above my head in this picture). 

You see that big old bowl of skiing... I traversed way across (where those skiers are... the dots) and then skied down where I could find powder.  All of that is not listed in the official stats for Courmayeur but considered free game.   In fact, in the first picture, you can see the marked run on the far left.  That's what they count in the mountain stats.  You can tell that off piste is free game by the fact that the Cresta d'Arp cable car goes to the top of Courmayeur but is not connected to any runs.  It is a cable car that allows you to go up and ski wherever you want.  That is what skiing in Europe is about.  Free rein.  

Lift tickets are cheaper.  Lessons are cheaper.  Food is better.  Vericals can be insane.  Where we stayed three weeks ago had a 6,600 ft lift served vertical.  

Now, why Val di Fiemme?  I haven't been there but while I've heard it is gorgeous, I'm not sure how great the vertical seems to be.  Are you open to other areas in Italy?  You can also use it as a base and drive to other resorts.  Canazei is not too far.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by texasdago

[texasdago 7568]

Second off piste example... this picture...

...was taken under/beside the Grand Montets cable car off piste in that big field between the cable car and the Combes run in the middle of the mountain.  You can see the Bochard gondola in the background.  All above tree line, all wide open, all fair game... not listed in the mountain stats.  No shortage of powder on an imperfect day.  Next day?  Bluebird day and this powder field was probably mauled... in fact, that's the day we went to Italy and skied in the pictures above in Courmayeur.

Reference point of Grand Montets with 6600 vertical feet at your disposal:  

Edited April 5, 2018 by texasdago

[Biscuits And Groovy 21]

I was thinking Val Di Fiemme because it's where my family over there have mentioned going to ski. Also, I've always wanted to go to the Dolomites and it's one of the few areas I've never been in Italy. I'm open to skiing all over Italy, but Val Di Fiemme seems like a good destination and base camp.

Yeah, I'm familiar with off-piste skiing. My favorite runs in Utah and Colorado are usually off-piste. I don't do the big extreme terrain, never done cliff work, but I'm comfortable in powder, over bumps, and in ~30º slopes. My go-to destination right now is Big Cottonwood Canyon in SLC because my sister lives there and has a Brighton ski pass so I get free lodging, and Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon also have the best snow quality and volume of almost anywhere I've ever been on usual years. Brighton has a lot of open areas where you can dip into off-piste areas even on the easier stuff, which is one of my favorite things about it. I also absolutely love being above the tree line, which is pretty hard to do in The US. Gotta be super high or really close to the coast. Only done it in Telluride and Whistler/Blackcomb. So it seems European skiing is more of what I already like.

I've never done Snowbird, which I hear is absolutely amazing, but I plan on hitting it for a last trip of the season in a week or two. And they still have 93in of snow over there which is crazy for April from my experience. Last year apparently they got over 100in in Big and Little Cottonwood after Brighton and Solitude had already closed closed, and Snowbird was powder heaven since it stays open the longest. Anyways, I hear that Snowbird is also pretty much totally ungroomed and only minimally maintained, which sounds awesome to me, so seems like Europe is my kind of skiing.

[texasdago 7568]

So you should totally do it.  What time of year would it be? 

 

To me, I'll take above treeline skiing 9 out of 10 times.  Even this past trip, after that "grayer" picture above, we went up onto the glacier while it was snowing and there was untracked powder as far as the eye could see.  It was unbelievable.  Skiing in the Dolomiti is absolutely beautiful, the food is great, the architecture is exactly what you expect when it comes to mountain chalets and the look/feel that U.S. resorts try to emulate.  You might come across more drag lifts but, honestly, on a crappy day, they're not bad.  You'll love it and, like you said, it can be a good base camp.  Within 1 - 1 1/2 hours, you can drive to go skiing in Val di Fassa, Val Gardena, San Martino di Castrozza, Alta Badia... you can go over to Arabba and head up to the Marmolada glacier.  Do it.

[texasdago 7568]

Here... google translatez yo but have a Marmolada boner

https://www.dolomitiskirock.com/sp/it/e/freeride-marmolada.3sp 

[Biscuits And Groovy 21]

Fuck me, that looks amazing. I'm conversational in Italian, so I can read most of it. After 2 months back in Italy i would probably be close to fluency, but I can't take that time. I think that 5 days around New Years would be my time table. Like 28/12-02/1. I don't know how the snow is during that time but being about to start law school that is probably the only time when my calendar would actually be open. And I'd probably make it a 10-day trip with a few days in Rome to visit family.

[texasdago 7568]

Snow should be fine.  Slopes might be a bit busy but that's going to be the case at any ski resort anywhere that time of year.  Italian ski resorts are amazing with artificial snow should God need a helping hand.  We plan on taking my one remaining ACL back to Courmayeur and La Thuile next year although I keep thinking about Plan de Corones / Kronplatz which has something like 24 gondolas and apparently impeccable snowmaking.

Ultimate Ski:

"Val di Fiemme

Val di Fiemme in the Eastern Dolomites is made up of five distinct ski areas - Ski Centre Latemar, Alpe Cermis, Bellamonte-Lusia, Passo Rolle and Passo Lavaze - which collectively offer 110km of piste (45% blue, 40% red, 20% black) including the 7km Olimpia run which drops and impressive 1,400m and is among the most famous pistes in the Alps. Away from downhill, the Lago di Tesoro cross-country centre is hosting the World Championship in 2013, as it has done twice previously, as well as being the venue for the annual Marcia Longa cross country race. Most guests choose to stay in Predazzo, at the foot of the Ski Centre Latemar system, or in Cavalese with its access to Alpe Cermis. There are an abundance of attractive 3-star Alpine style hotels in both places, and Cavalese also has a 4-star hotel. Of the two places, Cavalese - a pretty mountain town - is the better known, while Predazzo will appeal to guests seeking a quieter experience."

Found that Val Di Fiemme has about a 4500 ft vertical.  Looks like a 4 day pass during high season will run you 180 Euros.  Valle Silver pass adds some nearby resorts for a total of about 150 or so lifts.  Looks like a 5-day pass is around 250 Euro during peak season.

[Biscuits And Groovy 21]

That pricing is insanely good compared to US. I'm lucky if I'm paying less than $90 in off season on American mountains, lol. Much less at destination ski resorts, like anything run by Epic or Ikon. Ugh, why are the sports I like so expensive in The US. A week of skiing will run you 1k plus, Road and Mountain biking are both pretty expensive to buy the equipment and gear, ticket prices to sporting events are 2x the cost in Europe...

[texasdago 7568]

I think a lot has to do with mega corporations + insurance in the U.S.  People aren't sue happy in Europe.  You get hurt skiing, you deal with the risk.  That probably allows rates to stay down.  Private lessons and guides are cheaper, too.  This is why I always say a trip to Europe can be a wash for a family of four.

[Biscuits And Groovy 21]

For real. I bet that the food is cheaper too. So you get half price lift tickets, cheaper food(rather than the $23-30 per person meals at ski towns in the US), probably cheaper lodging, probably cheaper rentals too, and only have to cover the more expensive plane tickets. The only reason Utah is probably cheaper for me is because I have a free place to stay, usually can use my Brother-In-Law's equipment since he both skis and boards, and instead of $100+/day lift tickets for one mountain I only have to pay $85/day for Brighton.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 3/29/2018 at 6:26 PM, Upgrayedd said:

 

So what's the reality of the horror stories you hear about people skiing off cliffs in the off piste areas in. Europe ?  So much is off piste there, how does one not get into bad situations ?  or is it really just being aware of your location on a hill

[phdhorn 6224]

Just wanted to jump in here to report that Bob Beattie, the face of U.S. skiing for over 4 decades, has died at 85.  You no doubt remember him from his Olympic coverage (plus calling Franz Klammer's incredible 1976 Downhill win run in Innsbruck), but he was so much more... he was a pioneer in ski technique and U.S. racing organization, resort design, consultation, etc.  Not to mention he essentially founded World Cup racing in 1966.  There is probably no bigger American ski personality ever than Bob.  RIP.

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/02/bob-beattie-dies-co-founded-world-cup-skiing/

[texasdago 7568]

Skiing off of cliffs and into crevasses... that does happen but I do think it is people who are not familiar with the terrain.  Maybe they follow someone else's tracks not knowing they lead to a big dropoff or they go onto a glacier without a guide and ski into a crevasse.  There are inherent dangers but if you're going off-piste, get a guide.  They also know how to keep you away from avalanches since they know which faces are more likely to cause issue.  Anyway, guides are not expensive.

So, expenses... here's what I can pass on based on the past four years of skiing in Europe.

When it comes to most expensive to least expensive, you have:

Switzerland (duh!)

France

Austria

Italy

Then you have Andorra, Slovenia and Spain.  Bulgaria, too.  Don't know crap about those.

Lift tickets, absolutely cheaper.  This past trip, before the season started, we bought four 6-day lift tickets (a family pack, two adults and two children) with the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass for about 230 Euro per person.  The Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass covers 10 resorts areas (Brevent, Flegere, Grand Montets, Vallorcine/La Tour, Les Houches, Saint Gervais Les Bains, etc.) as well as Courmayeur in Italy and Verbier in Switzerland. So, 10 areas, 6 days, 230 Euro per person.  

Lessons, definitely cheaper.  We normally put the kids in private lessons.  With the ESF Argentiere, we paid 190 Euro per instructor (ex: one instructor for two kids) for a half-day lesson.  We did that for three days.  I did that as well and my instructor was more of a guide so we focused on technique but mostly chasing powder and off piste.  I liked him so much I hired him for two more days.  Most natural skier I've ever seen.  Absolutely brilliant.  He gave me confidence to ski in near whiteout conditions on a glacier because he knew where to go (see the cliff skier comment above).

Food, can for sure be cheaper and can 100% be better.  Mountain food in Europe is delicious, heavy and meant to be burned off.  Weinerschnitzel or Sausage and Sauerkraut in Austria chased with a beer or a Radler, Pasta in Italy, Cheese bombs in France (raclette, fondue, etc).  So much good food.  I should post pics (TTIWWP).  Drinks, definitely cheaper... go for local wine and local beers.  Can't go wrong.  Had so much wine from Savoy in France.  

Ah, here...

Lodging is up to you.  It depends what you want and can vary greatly.  We travel with four.  We don't get condos since that's not as much of a thing unless you're going to big master-planned resorts in France... and there's tons of those.  When it comes to hotels, we normally book hotels that have a room for us and one for our kids.  Usually 4 star hotels. You might pay 300 - 400 Euro a night so not cheap but, again, that's a four-star with two rooms.  Almost all include breakfast.  You can also pick hotels with meal plans and, yes, those meal plans are really good.

Now, if you go for spring break like we do, you will definitely miss out on two things...

1) crowds

2) lines

In Italy and Austria particularly, I would often ski down and hop back on a lift.  The longest line I stood in last year was in Solden (53 Euro walk up lift ticket for 30+ lifts) and it was 7 minutes long (I know, I timed it because I was grumbling)

Snow reliability is not as great in Europe and global warming is not helping.  Italians are freakin' masters at snowmaking and grooming.  Places like Obergurgl (where we went 2 and 3 years ago) have high bases and are very snow sure.  Just do your research.  Even bad snow years, the Italians can manage.  Plan de Corones/Kronplatz (listed above) supposedly has 100% snowmaking capabilities on the actual runs.

To me, the cost of lift tickets and lessons alone provides such a huge savings that it covers the balance and, yes, makes skiing in Europe about the same.  A week in Chamonix with a family of four over spring break probably costs the same as a family of four in Breckenridge... but in CHamonix, you're skiing in France, gawking at Mont Blanc and deciding if you want to head to Italy to eat your ass off and drink coffee and a bombardino or three.

Edited April 6, 2018 by texasdago

[texasdago 7568]

Speaking of crevasses... this was in Saas-Fee Switzerland.  Not a new video but, yeah, get a guide.

 

[texasdago 7568]

Shoot... not sure how to embed tweets so...

Wait, that did it.  Cool!

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by texasdago

[Upgrayedd 5810]

Pulled the trigger on these.  Arrive Tuesday.  Nordica GT 80 TI EVO.  Planning on using May 18 at A-Basin (fingers crossed).

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 4/5/2018 at 8:24 PM, texasdago said:

Skiing off of cliffs and into crevasses... that does happen but I do think it is people who are not familiar with the terrain.  Maybe they follow someone else's tracks not knowing they lead to a big dropoff or they go onto a glacier without a guide and ski into a crevasse.  There are inherent dangers but if you're going off-piste, get a guide.  They also know how to keep you away from avalanches since they know which faces are more likely to cause issue.  Anyway, guides are not expensive.

So, expenses... here's what I can pass on based on the past four years of skiing in Europe.

When it comes to most expensive to least expensive, you have:

Switzerland (duh!)

France

Austria

Italy

Then you have Andorra, Slovenia and Spain.  Bulgaria, too.  Don't know crap about those.

Lift tickets, absolutely cheaper.  This past trip, before the season started, we bought four 6-day lift tickets (a family pack, two adults and two children) with the Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass for about 230 Euro per person.  The Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass covers 10 resorts areas (Brevent, Flegere, Grand Montets, Vallorcine/La Tour, Les Houches, Saint Gervais Les Bains, etc.) as well as Courmayeur in Italy and Verbier in Switzerland. So, 10 areas, 6 days, 230 Euro per person.  

Lessons, definitely cheaper.  We normally put the kids in private lessons.  With the ESF Argentiere, we paid 190 Euro per instructor (ex: one instructor for two kids) for a half-day lesson.  We did that for three days.  I did that as well and my instructor was more of a guide so we focused on technique but mostly chasing powder and off piste.  I liked him so much I hired him for two more days.  Most natural skier I've ever seen.  Absolutely brilliant.  He gave me confidence to ski in near whiteout conditions on a glacier because he knew where to go (see the cliff skier comment above).

Food, can for sure be cheaper and can 100% be better.  Mountain food in Europe is delicious, heavy and meant to be burned off.  Weinerschnitzel or Sausage and Sauerkraut in Austria chased with a beer or a Radler, Pasta in Italy, Cheese bombs in France (raclette, fondue, etc).  So much good food.  I should post pics (TTIWWP).  Drinks, definitely cheaper... go for local wine and local beers.  Can't go wrong.  Had so much wine from Savoy in France.  

Ah, here...

Lodging is up to you.  It depends what you want and can vary greatly.  We travel with four.  We don't get condos since that's not as much of a thing unless you're going to big master-planned resorts in France... and there's tons of those.  When it comes to hotels, we normally book hotels that have a room for us and one for our kids.  Usually 4 star hotels. You might pay 300 - 400 Euro a night so not cheap but, again, that's a four-star with two rooms.  Almost all include breakfast.  You can also pick hotels with meal plans and, yes, those meal plans are really good.

Now, if you go for spring break like we do, you will definitely miss out on two things...

1) crowds

2) lines

In Italy and Austria particularly, I would often ski down and hop back on a lift.  The longest line I stood in last year was in Solden (53 Euro walk up lift ticket for 30+ lifts) and it was 7 minutes long (I know, I timed it because I was grumbling)

Snow reliability is not as great in Europe and global warming is not helping.  Italians are freakin' masters at snowmaking and grooming.  Places like Obergurgl (where we went 2 and 3 years ago) have high bases and are very snow sure.  Just do your research.  Even bad snow years, the Italians can manage.  Plan de Corones/Kronplatz (listed above) supposedly has 100% snowmaking capabilities on the actual runs.

To me, the cost of lift tickets and lessons alone provides such a huge savings that it covers the balance and, yes, makes skiing in Europe about the same.  A week in Chamonix with a family of four over spring break probably costs the same as a family of four in Breckenridge... but in CHamonix, you're skiing in France, gawking at Mont Blanc and deciding if you want to head to Italy to eat your ass off and drink coffee and a bombardino or three.

When I/we make it to Europe I'll definitely invest in a guide the first day at least.  Maximize skiing on better terrain and not skiing into a crevasse are two of my most fervent hopes.

[Upgrayedd 5810]

Let's not let PhD's idea of a Surly ski trip lose traction.  My vote is Colorado and preferably mixing in an Epic area.  

[Chewy's Hairy Horn 868]

Montana has some nice skiing as well.

Just closing out the last weekend of the season at Whitefish.

Hard to believe it’s April.

[PRONG HORN 3140]

On 4/7/2018 at 8:51 PM, Upgrayedd said:

Let's not let PhD's idea of a Surly ski trip lose traction.  My vote is Colorado and preferably mixing in an Epic area.  

 

So throw something together for 18/9, or something more well planned for 19/20?  My vote would be for more of a unanimous bucket list type place in North America that everyone agrees on.  For me it's somewhere I've never been and want to go, that's also a place worthy of my money and time.  

Cares:  Guaranteed base/light crowds/big

Don't cares:  bars/restaurants/shopping/stuff to do other than ski/weed 

 

[rage-a-holic 4381]

I'm down with an "I'm from the internet" ski trip. My vote would be Park City.

Colorado is nice, but you can fly into SLC from practically anywhere (and cheap on SWest) and be at the Canyons in under 40 minutes.

[texasdago 7568]

I'll be representing the paralympics contingent.

Canyons is nice... last time there I enjoyed some nice bump runs under the lift but I'm guessing the lack of an ACL might cause me to avoid too many moguls.

[Upgrayedd 5810]

A-Basin May 18-20.  Maybe the last runs of the season unless Mammoth is open Fathers Day.

[texasdago 7568]

The Alps don't mess around... especially this year

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5674805/Four-skiers-freeze-death-Swiss-Alps-five-critical.html 

[Upgrayedd 5810]

A-Basin May 18-20.  Booked lodging in Dillion (although I have never stayed there before and know nothing about the place).

Crossing my fingers snow holds.  Looking forward to slush bumps 🙂

[texasdago 7568]

On 5/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, Upgrayedd said:

A-Basin May 18-20.  Booked lodging in Dillion (although I have never stayed there before and know nothing about the place).

Crossing my fingers snow holds.  Looking forward to slush bumps 🙂

Well?  #werewaiting 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

8 hours ago, texasdago said:

Well?  #werewaiting 

This could be bad......

[Bevo 13568]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:55 AM, Biscuits And Groovy said:

I was thinking Val Di Fiemme because it's where my family over there have mentioned going to ski. Also, I've always wanted to go to the Dolomites and it's one of the few areas I've never been in Italy. I'm open to skiing all over Italy, but Val Di Fiemme seems like a good destination and base camp.

Yeah, I'm familiar with off-piste skiing. My favorite runs in Utah and Colorado are usually off-piste. I don't do the big extreme terrain, never done cliff work, but I'm comfortable in powder, over bumps, and in ~30º slopes. My go-to destination right now is Big Cottonwood Canyon in SLC because my sister lives there and has a Brighton ski pass so I get free lodging, and Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon also have the best snow quality and volume of almost anywhere I've ever been on usual years. Brighton has a lot of open areas where you can dip into off-piste areas even on the easier stuff, which is one of my favorite things about it. I also absolutely love being above the tree line, which is pretty hard to do in The US. Gotta be super high or really close to the coast. Only done it in Telluride and Whistler/Blackcomb. So it seems European skiing is more of what I already like.

I've never done Snowbird, which I hear is absolutely amazing, but I plan on hitting it for a last trip of the season in a week or two. And they still have 93in of snow over there which is crazy for April from my experience. Last year apparently they got over 100in in Big and Little Cottonwood after Brighton and Solitude had already closed closed, and Snowbird was powder heaven since it stays open the longest. Anyways, I hear that Snowbird is also pretty much totally ungroomed and only minimally maintained, which sounds awesome to me, so seems like Europe is my kind of skiing.

Love Snowbird

[Upgrayedd 5810]

 

On 5/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Upgrayedd said:

A-Basin May 18-20.  Booked lodging in Dillion (although I have never stayed there before and know nothing about the place).

Crossing my fingers snow holds.  Looking forward to slush bumps 🙂

 

On 6/20/2018 at 8:43 AM, texasdago said:

Well?  #werewaiting 

It was fun actually.  Not a lot open, but hey, it was late May. 

Got thunder snow on two days with one of the storms dropping 2 1/2 inches.  No lines.  Spring conditions.  Skied the new skis.  Good trip.

how do I post pics?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Upgrayedd

[texasdago 7568]

12 hours ago, Upgrayedd said:

 

 

It was fun actually.  Not a lot open, but hey, it was late May. 

Got thunder snow on two days with one of the storms dropping 2 1/2 inches.  No lines.  Spring conditions.  Skied the new skis.  Good trip.

how do I post pics?

cut and paste?  OR I think you can use tinypic links or something.  

 

We did A-Basin one year on Memorial Day weekend... had a 93" base - it was unreal.  Hit it at the right time.

 

[Upgrayedd 5810]

[Upgrayedd 5810]

Perhaps cut and paste wasn't correct 

[texasdago 7568]

yeah, pretty much made that up.

[ousuxndallas 65]

Everyone needs to download/buy TGR's Dream Factory. It's a few years old but walks through the history of heli skiing in Alaska.