Keeping outdoor natural gas Tankless water heaters from freezing?

[horn4life 3762]

My daughter lives in a newer neighborhood off MLK and they have an outside tankless system.  She's renting, and the bottom line is the install was shitty, and the insulation was non-existent. So she ended up with no hot water.  I saw a little water leaking but with so much pipe exposed, I figured hitting it with my heat gun might not work and that I should just wrap the pipes as best I could. Forty five minutes later I did about as good a job as can be expected.  So maybe next freeze the thing survives.

But do any of you have outside gas tankless heaters?  IF so how do you insulate them?

I was thinking of going over and rewrapping, when my fingers aren't frozen, but I was also thinking about maybe building an insulated box to hang on the wall to further protect the system?  

Anyhow wondering what some of you do in this situation. I searched for another thread so if this is a duplicate I appologize.

 

[YGIFS 19452]

If she's gonna be there awhile in the rental, tell the fucking landlord to install a recirculating pump if he's gonna install them outside like an asshole.  But I get that some builds don't have the setup for them.  

At this point since we have a few more nights of freezes and possibly more on the way in February.  First make a hot roux and let simmer.  

But drain all the remaining water out of it.  Wrap what you can, at this point, splitting open a few pool noodles and using them is just as easy as anything else.  You're not gonna get him or a sub to come out at this point and properly insulate the thing and your daughter is looking at at least 3 more nights of freezes, with more likely down the road.  So honestly, Macgyver the shit out of this.  Drain it and all the lines first (hit any line that won't budge with your heat fun or even a hair dryer), wrap the pipes in pool noodles or if you can get proper insulatory wrap from the hardware store used that, but I bet they are sold out.  And then get crafty.  I'd go buy two large moving boxes and fit it over the tankless.  take a few measurements, cut out what you need to and then duct tape packaging styrofoam from a shipping store or hardware store or even a couple remnants off an insulation roll.  And affix them to the inside of the box and drop it on over, snug as can be.  Again, get all of the water of the unit and her lines as can be.  Then tell the fucking owner to put in a recirculating pump between now and the next freeze cycle, if she's gonna be there awhile-she should insist or at bare minimum a proper insulation shell for the unit that includes a 3-6" enclosure below the ground.  If it has a solenoid, be careful as fuck with it.  Those things are just waiting to break in exposed weather like this.  

You're a nice dad, when you're done---pour yourself something warm to drink

Edited January 17 by YGIFS

[horn4life 3762]

1 hour ago, YGIFS said:

If she's gonna be there awhile in the rental, tell the fucking landlord to install a recirculating pump if he's gonna install them outside like an asshole.  But I get that some builds don't have the setup for them.  

At this point since we have a few more nights of freezes and possibly more on the way in February.  First make a hot roux and let simmer.  

But drain all the remaining water out of it.  Wrap what you can, at this point, splitting open a few pool noodles and using them is just as easy as anything else.  You're not gonna get him or a sub to come out at this point and properly insulate the thing and your daughter is looking at at least 3 more nights of freezes, with more likely down the road.  So honestly, Macgyver the shit out of this.  Drain it and all the lines first (hit any line that won't budge with your heat fun or even a hair dryer), wrap the pipes in pool noodles or if you can get proper insulatory wrap from the hardware store used that, but I bet they are sold out.  And then get crafty.  I'd go buy two large moving boxes and fit it over the tankless.  take a few measurements, cut out what you need to and then duct tape packaging styrofoam from a shipping store or hardware store or even a couple remnants off an insulation roll.  And affix them to the inside of the box and drop it on over, snug as can be.  Again, get all of the water of the unit and her lines as can be.  Then tell the fucking owner to put in a recirculating pump between now and the next freeze cycle, if she's gonna be there awhile-she should insist or at bare minimum a proper insulation shell for the unit that includes a 3-6" enclosure below the ground.  If it has a solenoid, be careful as fuck with it.  Those things are just waiting to break in exposed weather like this.  

You're a nice dad, when you're done---pour yourself something warm to drink

The maintenance guy came out and broke off two of the valve handles... so there's that.   I think it's gonna start leaking like a mofo, one it warms back up.  But hopefully not.  I mean they have the fucking temp setting that should be inside the house dangling on the about 8 feet of wire curled up underneath the thing.  That's the LED small square panel you see.  But they have Flex water connections that are way too long and thus are crimped  in the forcing the connection process and impossible to get insulation around.  But hillbilly before and after dad... I did have several bits and pieces of insulation I grabbed from the garage that I hung on to.  But I had to cut some strips to fill the gapping as I duct taped up all the water lines.  

Isn't that electrical line supposed to come into the bottom? Or does a watertight fitting negate that?

Oh I did get a nice pour of a couple of tasty Tequila Ocho top shelves at Eldorado Cafe on the way home.

[YGIFS 19452]

Forget everything I said and just get me the guy’s name so I can fuck him up.  That is much worse than what I envisioned.  First priority the valve handles and emptying it.  Shit; this is gonna be annoyin but we got three more Nights of this shit.  Let me charette this over with my guy and show him the pics.  

[drt 639]

Most if not all have warming coils in them now to prevent freezing. Either drip inside to keep water moving or cut water to the unit and drain. Usually easier to drip inside with where the shut off valves are located. 

Also the yellow gas line don’t need no stinking insulation. 

[YGIFS 19452]

Well no, it warms itself.  But you and I both know the maintenance guy wrote that up as a separate line item to the landlord with “weatherproofing exterior gas line parts and labor-$75.”

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

For future, I would think the adding an insulated box like you were thinking would take care of future issues, unless you have easy access to electrical outlet (or are comfortable tapping the electrical box there) in which case I would just get a "Water Pipe Heat Cable" off Amazon.

[Wilcox Cummingtonite 3025]

Continuously drip the hot side at as many locations in your house as possible. I normally wake up in the middle of the night and run the showers a couple of times on full hot for a couple of minutes.

[MadTrapper 153]

Mine is outside and, like others said, as long as the power is on she should be fine due to the heating element. During the winter storm a couple years ago I played it safe and just drained it but this time I didn't do anything and it was fine (Houston). Rinnai system here.

[markstanco 12577]

1 hour ago, Wilcox Cummingtonite said:

Continuously drip the hot side at as many locations in your house as possible. I normally wake up in the middle of the night and run the showers a couple of times on full hot for a couple of minutes.

This.  I have tankless and the BIG snow event a few years ago mine froze.  This last week we just dripped the faucets mounted on outside walls and all is well this go around. 

[Jkwellborn 6709]

This.  I have tankless and the BIG snow event a few years ago mine froze.  This last week we just dripped the faucets mounted on outside walls and all is well this go around. 

I’ve got a gas tankless mounted on the east wall of the house. Last time we had all that nonsense up this way, didn’t have any issues. The pipes under the house are insulated, which is good because they’re close to the access. There’s a box on the bottom that has the valves and water lines in as well.

Been good through everything until early this am. Froze for a little bit. I was ticked.

[YGIFS 19452]

Have a couple more ideas.  But want to see how it's doing this morning before I do another long-Lobo post.  

What direction is that wall facing, btw?  We're going to get some warm sunshine today and you can fashion a reflective surface to bounce light/warmth onto it to help out.  even something like one of those dashboard sun blocker things or a cardboard flat box with foil wrapped around it.  But it will likely do fine on its own.  Having said that, tonight is gonna get close to freeze and Friday night will for sure freeze.  My real concern would be that this is going to certainly happen again in February and the valve fuck-up plus the lack of circulation pump is the longer-term concern.  But yeah-lemme know the direction the unit is facing before we go commit felony assault. 

[horn4life 3762]

Yeah once it got some sun on the black insulation yesterday it started to work.  Still has a little bit of a drip, but apparently it's pretty minor.  Yes,yes,yes, drip the hot water!   I will likely just go ahead and build a box out of foam and some 1/4 ply, as an extra layer of protection.  

Still I will never understand why folks are such fuck ups on simple installations.  The way the flex connections are forced up against the bottom of the unit because they are too damn long makes them impossible to insulate properly.  It just takes a fucking second to do shit right, and so often it's just fuck it up, and move on...

Thanks guys for all the input!

 

Oh and it faces East, so catches the morning  sun

Edited January 18 by horn4life

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

It really is crazy where they installed it. If wasn't a rental, moving the box up a foot or so would solve all the issues.

[shakahorn 1645]

19 hours ago, Wilcox Cummingtonite said:

Continuously drip the hot side at as many locations in your house as possible. I normally wake up in the middle of the night and run the showers a couple of times on full hot for a couple of minutes.

This wouldn't work for me.*  My heater won't kick in unless there is a 'significant' amount of water flowing through the hot side.  For example, in my guest bathroom, the hot water in the sink will never kick in, unless the hot water in the bathtub is turned on first.

 

*I don't have this specific problem

[HouTex 1878]

17 minutes ago, shakahorn said:

This wouldn't work for me.*  My heater won't kick in unless there is a 'significant' amount of water flowing through the hot side.  For example, in my guest bathroom, the hot water in the sink will never kick in, unless the hot water in the bathtub is turned on first.

 

*I don't have this specific problem

Same for my tankless hot water heater.  Mine is in my attic and so far it has been fine throughout the last 3 major freezes.  The neighbor next to me (similar patio home design and construction) lost her tankless heater during the 2021 freeze.  

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

2 hours ago, shakahorn said:

This wouldn't work for me.*  My heater won't kick in unless there is a 'significant' amount of water flowing through the hot side.  For example, in my guest bathroom, the hot water in the sink will never kick in, unless the hot water in the bathtub is turned on first.

 

*I don't have this specific problem

Shouldn't matter, idea being to just make sure the water doesn't stand still.

[horn4life 3762]

21 hours ago, shakahorn said:

This wouldn't work for me.*  My heater won't kick in unless there is a 'significant' amount of water flowing through the hot side.  For example, in my guest bathroom, the hot water in the sink will never kick in, unless the hot water in the bathtub is turned on first.

 

*I don't have this specific problem

 

21 hours ago, HouTex said:

Same for my tankless hot water heater.  Mine is in my attic and so far it has been fine throughout the last 3 major freezes.  The neighbor next to me (similar patio home design and construction) lost her tankless heater during the 2021 freeze.  

I was wondering about this?  Simply as at some point I did some research, and it seemed like the flow of water was what kicked on the gas units I was looking at way back when.  With the better insulation maybe just turning on the hot water for a couple minutes every couple hours will do the trick?  I'll go measure the space for the future cover, and do a little research on the model they installed.  I could pretty easily make that utility closet additional interior storage space, with such a change.

 

SO DIFFERENT QUESTION- Those of you commenting, do you like your tankless water heaters?  The reason I am asking is that I am seriously contemplating moving the hot water heater from the interior closet (it used to also house the air handler before it was moved to attic) behind the closet wall and into the garage.  I could flip the water connections from the back wall of the utility closet, onto the back wall of the garage pretty easily actually.   Assuming the current vent would meet spec on a tankless gas heater.  But no power, no hot water, right?

 

Edited January 19 by horn4life

[HouTex 1878]

Correct, no power no hot water.  But yes, I love my tankless water heater.  We never run out of hot water and we did all the time with a conventional tank heater (very long showers by my wife and two daughters).

[Jkwellborn 6709]

I love mine. I’d do it again every time. I don’t know that I’d want one that ran off of propane or electric. Mine just uses 110v for the igniter, so power wasn’t an issue.

[horn4life 3762]

23 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Correct, no power no hot water.  But yes, I love my tankless water heater.  We never run out of hot water and we did all the time with a conventional tank heater (very long showers by my wife and two daughters).

 

23 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

I love mine. I’d do it again every time. I don’t know that I’d want one that ran off of propane or electric. Mine just uses 110v for the igniter, so power wasn’t an issue.

My thought was this Spring to potentially flip the conventional water heater into the garage, to free up the space.  But a tankless would actually solve all my garage configuration issues with electrical and plumbing for the washer and dryer in the garage.  In fact the one area of vulnerability during the snowpocolypse was that the feeder water line for the water heater is not insulated (or well insulated) in the garage wall.  And the hot water froze up on those garage lines that were inaccessible.  Tankless might be actually the simplest solution from a space and plumbing routing perspective to grab that closet space.

So how many GPM are your heaters?

Edited January 19 by horn4life

[Jkwellborn 6709]

Mine is 4.9 gpm I believe. I looked at it the other day for the first time in forever.

[DalTxHornFan 3106]

I use a pipe heat cable on mine.  Something like this.

[Jkwellborn 6709]

I use a pipe heat cable on mine.  Something like this.

I need to figure out where the lines actually froze on mine. There’s only one spot it’s not insulated. I don’t know that I need to go this route just yet.

[DalTxHornFan 3106]

Just now, Jkwellborn said:

I need to figure out where the lines actually froze on mine. There’s only one spot it’s not insulated. I don’t know that I need to go this route just yet.

I went ahead and installed this wrapped directly around the pipes and put on new foam pipe insulation.  We only plug it in when the temps are forecast to be an issue.

[horn4life 3762]

35 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I use a pipe heat cable on mine.  Something like this.

I think I have some sort of hillbilly rig for my RV from the prior owners that looks pretty similar.   OF course the fucking outdoor plug near the heater wasn't getting any juice.  Maybe a GFCI somewhere, need to test it and see if that's the case or not.   

 

36 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

I need to figure out where the lines actually froze on mine. There’s only one spot it’s not insulated. I don’t know that I need to go this route just yet.

That was why I didn't try my heat gun is with so much exposed pipe you could just not be hitting the right spot.  I guess it's great that it freezes so often now in Austin, I get an immediate chance to see if my wrap saves it this go round.

[troph 24852]

On 1/17/2024 at 11:46 AM, horn4life said:

The maintenance guy came out and broke off two of the valve handles... so there's that.   I think it's gonna start leaking like a mofo, one it warms back up.  But hopefully not.  I mean they have the fucking temp setting that should be inside the house dangling on the about 8 feet of wire curled up underneath the thing.  That's the LED small square panel you see.  But they have Flex water connections that are way too long and thus are crimped  in the forcing the connection process and impossible to get insulation around.  But hillbilly before and after dad... I did have several bits and pieces of insulation I grabbed from the garage that I hung on to.  But I had to cut some strips to fill the gapping as I duct taped up all the water lines.  

Isn't that electrical line supposed to come into the bottom? Or does a watertight fitting negate that?

Oh I did get a nice pour of a couple of tasty Tequila Ocho top shelves at Eldorado Cafe on the way home.

Infuriating. This is why we can’t have nice things. It would take no effort to design this at construction to be installed on an inside garage wall. Problem solved. pisses me off. 
 

you’re a good dad. I hope you got the hugs and I love yous you deserved for helping her out. 
 

I suspect this is a build from at least 10 years ago but any new build for a home in Texas has to be built to withstand 10 degrees and no power for several days. Don’t put a generator on it if you can’t afford it but have the electrical at least thoughtfully designed so you can add back up later - just have two boxes - critical and non critical and the ability to add a transfer switch.  Be close enough but within code to the gas line so you can add a generator near there later.  Have all exterior water lines run in a way you can drain them easily - just put the hose bibs on a separate loop you can shut off.  Tankless water heaters need to go in the garage.  Have a house water shut off that’s not at the street. Most of this work simply takes thought not extra materials or time and if it does take extra materials or time it’s marginal.  It’s time builders start building for this shit.

[immamac 42865]

At this point anker has solved the no power thing. For 3800 bucks and easy install you can keep all kinds of stuff running maybe not your central hvac for that cheap but basically everything else in a normal house. 

https://www.anker.com/products/a1790?variant=43011220799638

you can supplement that with a small generator to charge while it supplies and have power for quite some time. 

[troph 24852]

I like this solution better but we already have 24kWh of battery back up.

 

https://www.harborfreight.com/9500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-with-co-secure-technology-57080.html

you can also run them parallel to double your power output.  You can definitely run a house including an HVAC unit off these.
 

we are going to move HVAC and heating appliances to a box that is grid or generator powered (1-2 Predator 9500), and use grid or solar for the lights, plugs, data closet, water pump, electric controls to the water heater, circulating pump, and refrigeration. 
 

we had our first outage for 4-5 hours this past cold snap (routine with PEC) and we didn’t like the load on solar reserves with an overcast sky. 

Edited January 21 by troph

[troph 24852]

@horn4life yes we like our tankless. We added a circulating pump we can turn on remotely 5 mins before we take a shower or bath and it makes it even better. We also have two tankless to eliminate long hot water run. Allows everyone to use hot water when they want and no issues with depleting a water tank. 

[thunderlounge 7866]

Have several anker products. Good stuff.

[Kennythetiger 9389]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:53 AM, Jkwellborn said:

I need to figure out where the lines actually froze on mine. There’s only one spot it’s not insulated. I don’t know that I need to go this route just yet.

“It’s better to have this and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.” 
Ranger Captain Woodrow F. Call