Ethical Non Monogamy "ENM"/Throupling/Fucking around/whatever.....

[immamac 42492]

Just now, safe sex said:

I'm gobsmacked by how difficult this seems to be to process for some of y'all. 

It’s not difficult to process. It’s stupid. It’s not that it isn’t simple it’s that it’s fucking dumb. 

[F250 28658]

5 minutes ago, immamac said:

This only captures one side of the equation. With ENM there is the other person (main dick/pussy) and then everyone else. This is the part that doesn’t make any sense. How do you have a main person and then a bunch of other partners vs just being an individual with a bunch of other partners. Being polyamorous is a you thing. Being ethically non monogamous is an us thing.

In my experience, the primary couple set the boundaries and keeps their relationship the priority.

As the third-party you will get summaries of the primary couples current feelings on the situation and other shit you don't care about.

 

[safe sex 11659]

5 minutes ago, immamac said:

It’s not difficult to process. It’s stupid. It’s not that it isn’t simple it’s that it’s fucking dumb. 

I just don't even see how you can apply that value judgement to such a wide swath of the population that successfully and happily navigates those relationships

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

In my experience, the primary couple set the boundaries and keeps their relationship the priority.

As the third-party you will get summaries of the primary couples current feelings on the situation and other shit you don't care about.

 

And as the third party there's a good chance you have a primary partner too.

[C-Man 26989]

23 hours ago, irishtexan said:

I've known several married couples that "opened" their marriage up. All are now divorced.

They were getting divorced whether they "opened" up their marriage or not.

 

23 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Unless you are a Mormon husband and knows the secret password for your wife (and she doesn't) to get into heaven, polygamy and open marriages usually don't work in the long term. 

My thinking on this. If I want to bang other women, and my wife wants to bang other men, then what the fuck is the point in my staying married and putting up with her bullshit. I'd rather get divorced, bang other women and not have to put up with her or any other woman's shit.

Amen.

A second cousin of mine is involved in a throuple. I'd never heard of this before it was brought up around the dining room island when I was deep into the wine one year at the family Xmas get-together. He was in a relationship with two girls at that time. I nearly spit my wine out in surprise. So you have to dote on two different women and all that AND there weren't threesomes?!?! I feel like you're maybe missing the best part. However, he has now since gotten involved with a throuple with another man as the third. They live in separate houses on the same property and there is a child involved. I have no fucking clue which of them is the biological father.

Hey, I'm no kink-shamer. If that works for you, by all means go and have a good time. I just know personally I could never make it work on my end -- unless there were threesomes (not the Devil's variety either /wink).

[NAVY 6738]

Oh look, it’s one of these threads again 

[Js1 85055]

14 minutes ago, immamac said:

It’s not difficult to process. It’s stupid. It’s not that it isn’t simple it’s that it’s fucking dumb. 

[crash_davis 23078]

Some people find fat men/women desirable. Some crave a certain race/ethnicity. Others enjoy watching their loved one having sex with other people. Some enjoy having sex with other people while their loved ones watch. Some want to be beaten and dominated. Some want to beat and dominate. Some claim celibacy is a life choice ignoring that the mirror and/or immaturity chose for them. Some liked to be pegged and then disappear from message boards. Some people have no business being married. Some people have no business having children. 

Whatever tickles your fancy, you are the one living with the consequences, if there are any.

 

Just don't have sex with aggy. You deserve better.

[F250 28658]

3 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Just don't have sex with aggy. You deserve better.

[immamac 42492]

“Large swaths of the population” lmao. This is the problem it’s a microcosm inside of a bubble, not a large swath of the population. 

[chainsaw 9831]

Hall passes are a type of ENM. (There was a whole season of Curb about this). Wives looking the other way, or adopting "don't ask don't tell" policies toward shenanigans like bachelor parties or boy's weekends, are basically the same. Those other cultures where it's an open secret that married men are basically expected to have mistresses, that might not be ENM, but it's definitely on that spectrum between unethical non-monogamy and ENM.

It's not that hard to imagine consenting adults, early in the dating process, having a candid conversation about wanting to explore with other people from time to time but not wanting to have to sneak around to do it. Rules, boundaries, conditions, all of that can be pre-negotiated up front and updated as the relationship continues. That's all ENM.

And yes some of the really weird polycule, Waco shit could also fall under the umbrella of ENM. (My personal opinion is that the more culty the vibe is, the less likely the consent is to be effective consent, which disqualifies it from being ethical and ENM, but again that's just my personal opinion and in theory a harem could be fully consensual and ethical).

[Brisketexan 104460]

34 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Some liked to be pegged and then disappear from message boards.

Like that's even a thing.

[crash_davis 23078]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Like that's even a thing.

I'm not naming any names. 

[safe sex 11659]

12 minutes ago, immamac said:

“Large swaths of the population” lmao. This is the problem it’s a microcosm inside of a bubble, not a large swath of the population. 

Ok cool, hook 'em

[Chewbacca 7723]

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

I'm gobsmacked by how difficult this seems to be to process for some of y'all. 

Different people are wired differently.  I have no issues if anyone wants to pursue this lifestyle, but it sounds terrible to me.  

[mchookem 16093]

18 hours ago, immamac said:

No…that’s just called having a friend who likes football. 

i am this friend in a few friendships, not to the physical exclusion of their wives but definitely when it comes to discussion or argument (two of them are aggy lol). one wife is grateful her wife has someone else to engage with on the topic, one wife is amused and expresses things like 'man i wish i liked football so i could get excited like y'all!' and the third basically just says 'yeah, what he said!' to everything he says...despite being a Texas grad herself 😐 but she's like that about literally everything (follows his lead on all). anyways, the last is the only one where there sometimes feels some tension, especially when specifically discussing Texas/aggy stuff (sec move, jimbo, etc). thanks to surly i'm well-versed in aggy shenanigans, but when we get into it (good-naturedly of course) there's def a sense of her 'defending her man', again despite her being a Texas grad. i've learned to just roll my eyes 🙄

17 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

So this basically sounds like old school French side pieces:  spouse kinda/explicitely know there’s another man/woman, choose to live with it as long as you keep it on the DL and don’t cross friend streams and don’t come home smelling like whore/dick?

 

5 hours ago, troph said:

Hell I did that in transition too. I went from a dick face to an all star partner, parent, etc. 

your transition makes a lot more sense now, i would have done the same!

1 hour ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Get a cool wife.  When you go to Miami or Vegas with the guys, there’s a lot of girls around and shit happens.  If you need to hide that, you have the wrong gal.  Also doesn’t mean you advertise it to your lady   

If you feel like you love another bitch or fall for girls easily - or your actual wife sucks, then this probably won’t work.  

And before someone makes a comment about being loaded for that arrangement, I’m 100% sure it helps, but I met my wife when I was still in school.  Never looked back.  Life is great. 

The people that think a long term relationship will last with 3sums etc - LOL. 

ChiTownDoc is married??

😁

 

[Rimbo 25752]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

This only captures one side of the equation. With ENM there is the other person (main dick/pussy) and then everyone else. This is the part that doesn’t make any sense. How do you have a main person and then a bunch of other partners vs just being an individual with a bunch of other partners. Being polyamorous is a you thing. Being ethically non monogamous is an us thing.

You're making a distinction where none exists in an attempt to make one idea seem "wrong."

Everything you are impacts everyone you come in contact with. Consent and ethics are always part of the equation. You either care about those things, or you don't.

[immamac 42492]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

You're making a distinction where none exists in an attempt to make one idea seem "wrong."

Everything you are impacts everyone you come in contact with. Consent and ethics are always part of the equation. You either care about those things, or you don't.

Nothing about it is wrong. I never said it was wrong. It’s stupid. 

[Brisketexan 104460]

Just now, immamac said:

Nothing about it is wrong. I never said it was wrong. It’s stupid. 

And if there's one thing we know about Surly values....."stupid" does NOT correlate with "wrong."

[Pam Cummings 9553]

5 hours ago, safe sex said:

It's not much more complicated than that lol. Spend some time in the Highland Gold's Gym and you'll see there are def gym buddies who take a quick break to go fuck in the bathroom mid workout. Gotta get the cardio in between lifting I guess? Or they'll fuck in the showers after. 

(I know know this because of patients telling me this lmao)

Well damn. Now every time i go to the gym i'll be playing the "which of these fuckers is banging in the locker room" game.

[Rimbo 25752]

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

I'm gobsmacked by how difficult this seems to be to process for some of y'all. 

Are you really that surprised?

Everyone sees everyone else filtered through the lens of themselves. By the time I found out girls thought I was hot AF in high school, decades had passed and it was too late to do anything about it. It's not that I wasn't told as such then; it's that I was so wrapped up in my own self that I couldn't accept it.

I'm still that way, but at least now I sometimes, on occasion, am aware of it.

There's no universal sexuality, but this, at least, IS universal. We all do this; sometimes we can be made aware of it.

I think it's slightly easier for those who are LGBTQ+ to recognize that not everyone has the same sexuality, because the difference between what everyone expects of them vs what they are is just hammered into their heads every day of their lives.

For cis, straight, "normal" people, it's too easy to think, "That's just wrong" and go about their lives. It's only the point where someone we care about comes out that we have to face our own bigotry. That's happened to me twice.

Edited January 24 by Rimbo

[Pam Cummings 9553]

45 minutes ago, immamac said:

“Large swaths of the population” lmao. This is the problem it’s a microcosm inside of a bubble, not a large swath of the population. 

 

 

 

[Rimbo 25752]

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

Nothing about it is wrong. I never said it was wrong. It’s stupid. 

[ChiTownDoc 21091]

15 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i am this friend in a few friendships, not to the physical exclusion of their wives but definitely when it comes to discussion or argument (two of them are aggy lol). one wife is grateful her wife has someone else to engage with on the topic, one wife is amused and expresses things like 'man i wish i liked football so i could get excited like y'all!' and the third basically just says 'yeah, what he said!' to everything he says...despite being a Texas grad herself 😐 but she's like that about literally everything (follows his lead on all). anyways, the last is the only one where there sometimes feels some tension, especially when specifically discussing Texas/aggy stuff (sec move, jimbo, etc). thanks to surly i'm well-versed in aggy shenanigans, but when we get into it (good-naturedly of course) there's def a sense of her 'defending her man', again despite her being a Texas grad. i've learned to just roll my eyes 🙄

 

your transition makes a lot more sense now, i would have done the same!

ChiTownDoc is married??

😁

 

I think I even posted pics way back on the Shag.  Oh to be be so naive again…

[immamac 42492]

Been consistent from the get go. 

 

[Js1 85055]

I do not understand why you are so hostile to something that doesn't affect you at all

[safe sex 11659]

Womp 

Edited January 24 by safe sex
Not worth it lmao

[safe sex 11659]

Ethical non-monogamy is for people who are emotionally mature enough to realize that they are not monogamous and are able to clearly and consistently communicate their needs to their partners.

Otherwise known as idiots I guess. 🙄

[tomahawk dunk 318]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

Others enjoy watching their loved one having sex with other people. 

[F250 28658]

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

And as the third party there's a good chance you have a primary partner too.

In my case, I was single and the relationship I had with the woman never evolved beyond casual dating. Although, I could see how a really serious relationship could form and I would imagine things become a lot more complex as both relationships would become more entwined.

[safe sex 11659]

Just now, F250 said:

In my case, I was single and the relationship I had with the woman never evolved beyond casual dating. Although, I could see how a really serious relationship could form and I would imagine things become a lot more complex as both relationships would become more entwined.

100%

[Pam Cummings 9553]

10 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Ethical non-monogamy is for people who are emotionally mature enough to realize that they are not monogamous and are able to clearly and consistently communicate their needs to their partners.

Otherwise known as idiots I guess. 🙄

Yeah seems to me that if you're a person that likes to cheat, the thrill of trying to hide it and not get caught because you know you're doing something bad is what gets you off. This seems much different.

[chainsaw 9831]

3 minutes ago, F250 said:

In my case, I was single and the relationship I had with the woman never evolved beyond casual dating. Although, I could see how a really serious relationship could form and I would imagine things become a lot more complex as both relationships would become more entwined.

[troph 24547]

this thread hurts my head almost as much as having an open relationship with my ex.

[ChiTownDoc 21091]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

I do not understand why you are so hostile to something that doesn't affect you at all

I think he’s pissed because he wants it to affect him.  
 

 

 

I keeeeed!

[Armybrat 40678]

2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Different people are wired differently.  I have no issues if anyone wants to pursue this lifestyle, but it sounds terrible to me.  

My wiring doesn’t travel lower than the sternum.

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

How do you have a main person and then a bunch of other partners vs just being an individual with a bunch of other partners.

Is it not possible to care extremely deeply for one person, someone you live with, have children with, love them so much that you want them to experience relationships with other people at the same time if they so please, to live their life to whatever definition that is, even if that includes intimacy? 

 

 

[seven 1366]

I personally do not have a desire to have additional romantic or sexual relationships while in a relationship. I've also never been big on one time casual sex. However, a strictly monogamous partner is not particularly important to me either. I have only "experimented" with this with one girlfriend. We would go to bars and she would flirt with other guys, get free drinks, and on a few occasions make out with a guy. But she always left with me and we had amazing sex those nights. The sex part of enm I could see myself being OK with, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the dating/bf aspect. 

 

Tldr - people are all different, do what you want (ethically) 

[safe sex 11659]

2 minutes ago, seven said:

I personally do not have a desire to have additional romantic or sexual relationships while in a relationship. I've also never been big on one time casual sex. However, a strictly monogamous partner is not particularly important to me either. I have only "experimented" with this with one girlfriend. We would go to bars and she would flirt with other guys, get free drinks, and on a few occasions make out with a guy. But she always left with me and we had amazing sex those nights. The sex part of enm I could see myself being OK with, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the dating/bf aspect. 

 

Tldr - people are all different, do what you want (ethically) 

Well, luckily you may be able to find someone who just wants to be able to hook up with other people but not date them. That is also ENM.

 

[chainsaw 9831]

47 minutes ago, seven said:

I personally do not have a desire to have additional romantic or sexual relationships while in a relationship. I've also never been big on one time casual sex. However, a strictly monogamous partner is not particularly important to me either. I have only "experimented" with this with one girlfriend. We would go to bars and she would flirt with other guys, get free drinks, and on a few occasions make out with a guy. But she always left with me and we had amazing sex those nights. The sex part of enm I could see myself being OK with, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the dating/bf aspect. 

 

Tldr - people are all different, do what you want (ethically) 

People are drawn to the customizability of ENM. It's not as if boundaries disappear. If anything, they are even more important. That heightened practice of respecting boundaries tends to improve communication and honesty which improves the quality of relationships. But just as with monogamous relationships, people tend to fall short and fuck up the ethics. ENM is not and never has been marketed as a cure-all for the inescapable fact that most humans are selfish assholes.

[Jkwellborn 6649]

People are drawn to the customizability of ENM. It's not as if boundaries disappear. If anything, they are even more important. That heightened practice of respecting boundaries tends to improve communication and honesty which improves the quality of relationships. But just as with monogamous relationships, people tend to fall short and fuck up the ethics. ENM is not and never has been marketed as a cure-all for the inescapable fact that most humans are selfish assholes.

You’re over here talking about it like it’s an AR or some type of Barbie toy.

[KYHorn 16806]

7 hours ago, crash_davis said:

If by rich history you mean cultures and religions which view women as basically property who need to be submissive to their husbands, then yea.

 

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My general point is that these social constructs are often downstream of biology.  And the further away we get from the direct impacts of biology, the more often we try to retcon social norms that evolved as a result of biological imperatives as arbitrary rules that are standing in the way of nature. 
 

Here’s a few realities about human existence that feed into mating and pairing strategies and social constructs around them:

- Childbirth is dangerous, painful and high intensity for human women. (Big brained infants, bipedalism)

- Raising human children is long-term and high intensity and human mothers are hard pressed to do it alone (brain development comes before running and hunting, so the kid is saddled to you and your recovery period is longer) 

- The connection with sexual promiscuity and impairing/fatal diseases is well known since ancient times. 
 

Just thinking about that will shed light on why humans as a species trended toward mating strategies and structures where questions of paternity (and thereby the responsibility to care for pregnant women and children) encounters few questions.

It’s fairly uncontroversial that other sorts of rules and norms (eat that, not this) started as pretty sensible guidelines to avoid serious health and other problems, but got dressed up in the language of religion and ethics for a species that lacked the concept of bacteria and “cook to temp.” It shouldn’t be controversial that this is how other social structures evolved as well. 
 

There seems to be a determination that all social evolution must be shown to have deep historic roots, or a biological basis. I think you see that above in the wiggle language of “multiple partner cultures.”  The truth is that polygyny is super historic and wide-spread, polyandry is basically a rounding error in the anthropological survey, modern polyamory basically unknown, and monogamy in between. The reasons go beyond bigotry or hate for women, although they certainly fed into those attitudes. 

There’s no reason to make up history or look for some sort of support in deep human biology. I reject that thinking as unfounded, I think it’s fine to celebrate advances that allow us to treat others equally and for people to more fully self-realize.

I don’t want to abandon agriculture, medicine, or dating apps and the chance to try ENM; and I don’t want to tell people that they should be bound to social norms that developed when lots of those things never existed. Why should we? 

 

There's a really rare cultural practice called fraternal polyandry that is still practiced today in a remote region in India. One girl marries all brothers of a family. Pretty fascinating. 

6 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Some people find fat men/women desirable. Some crave a certain race/ethnicity. Others enjoy watching their loved one having sex with other people. Some enjoy having sex with other people while their loved ones watch. Some want to be beaten and dominated. Some want to beat and dominate. Some claim celibacy is a life choice ignoring that the mirror and/or immaturity chose for them. Some liked to be pegged and then disappear from message boards. Some people have no business being married. Some people have no business having children. 

Whatever tickles your fancy, you are the one living with the consequences, if there are any.

 

Just don't have sex with aggy. You deserve better.

Sweet dreams are made of these. Who am I to disagree?

[safe sex 11659]

38 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

You’re over here talking about it like it’s an AR or some type of Barbie toy.

[Goredho 17301]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:59 PM, safe sex said:

It helps to be bisexual. 🤷‍♀️

How it started:

 

How it’s going:

[Modessit 5595]

Well, luckily you may be able to find someone who just wants to be able to hook up with other people but not date them. That is also ENM.
 

Pretty sure that's called "hot-wifing", but your probably going to tell us in great detail how hotwife and voluntary cuckold relationships are just one degree in the spectrum of ENM, instead of a wife who wants to enjoy extra dick while her husband waits at home or watches.

Most people I've known who do this were socially-inept late bloomers and didn't have any or very little sexual experience before meeting and starting a relationship with their main partner who may have been their first sexual partner. Then one of them (usually the woman) starts thinking about what they missed out on by not having multiple playmates and the main guy (also usually socially inept and inexperienced and not wanting to lose this woman) talk and agree to open it up. The guy doesn't find anyone usually because he's happy with what he's got. The woman gets on some dating apps and meets some guys who want to fuck her (because she's got a pussy). She spends more time with one new guy and brings up the idea of polyamory to the old guy. New guy ends up moving in and they live as a throuple. Woman spends more time with new guy because he's new, and old guy either deals with it or gets upset. Most of these relationships don't last long - less than 5 years - because one person will eventually feel neglected. The ones that do are when the woman wants the 3rd to be another woman (bi tendencies) and the main woman sleeps with both but the man and new woman don't. Neither feel as threatened of being replaced by the other partner.

There was a story I read a while back of a husband and wife in an ENM relationship with another guy who lived with them. She already had a kid with the husband. She wanted to get pregnant by the new guy and didn't want the baby born out of wedlock so she divorced her husband and married the new guy before the baby was born. They all three still lived together with now 2 kids. Seems fucked up for the kids, especially the one who now has divorced parents. What happens if she gets pregnant by the 1st guy again?

And yes, almost every gay couple I know - including my best friend's relationship - are often going to parties or clubs or vacations or cruises and hooking up with whomever they can find. Every time I hear one of those stories or see pictures he took I just shake my head.

[KYHorn 16806]

3 hours ago, Modessit said:

Seems fucked up for the kids, especially the one who now has divorced parents.

Yeah, but at least their birth certificates don't say "bastard"!

[Fudge Nuggets 19118]

14 hours ago, chainsaw said:

There was a whole season of Curb about this

You know that’s not real, right?

[CleverNickname 1291]

11 hours ago, chainsaw said:

People are drawn to the customizability of ENM. It's not as if boundaries disappear. If anything, they are even more important. 

Boundaries. The rules. The rules are very important. Each time might be different, it's not just one size fits all. Its dynamic, and that can keep it interesting. Like, one time the timber is really hard to get, but another time it's all over the place...

Okay okay, second time I made the same joke. I'll see myself out...

[safe sex 11659]

5 hours ago, Modessit said:

Pretty sure that's called "hot-wifing", but your probably going to tell us in great detail how hotwife and voluntary cuckold relationships are just one degree in the spectrum of ENM, instead of a wife who wants to enjoy extra dick while her husband waits at home or watches.

Most people I've known who do this were socially-inept late bloomers and didn't have any or very little sexual experience before meeting and starting a relationship with their main partner who may have been their first sexual partner. Then one of them (usually the woman) starts thinking about what they missed out on by not having multiple playmates and the main guy (also usually socially inept and inexperienced and not wanting to lose this woman) talk and agree to open it up. The guy doesn't find anyone usually because he's happy with what he's got. The woman gets on some dating apps and meets some guys who want to fuck her (because she's got a pussy). She spends more time with one new guy and brings up the idea of polyamory to the old guy. New guy ends up moving in and they live as a throuple. Woman spends more time with new guy because he's new, and old guy either deals with it or gets upset. Most of these relationships don't last long - less than 5 years - because one person will eventually feel neglected. The ones that do are when the woman wants the 3rd to be another woman (bi tendencies) and the main woman sleeps with both but the man and new woman don't. Neither feel as threatened of being replaced by the other partner.

There was a story I read a while back of a husband and wife in an ENM relationship with another guy who lived with them. She already had a kid with the husband. She wanted to get pregnant by the new guy and didn't want the baby born out of wedlock so she divorced her husband and married the new guy before the baby was born. They all three still lived together with now 2 kids. Seems fucked up for the kids, especially the one who now has divorced parents. What happens if she gets pregnant by the 1st guy again?

And yes, almost every gay couple I know - including my best friend's relationship - are often going to parties or clubs or vacations or cruises and hooking up with whomever they can find. Every time I hear one of those stories or see pictures he took I just shake my head.
 

This is longer than any post I've written in this thread

[troph 24547]

there is a massive divide here between cisgender heterosexual "normative" expectations for relationships and LGBTQ+ queer culture. Look, gay men, lesbians, queer, trans, non-binary, all of the above... we had to give the Johnny Cash finger to the whole fucking world to be who we are in some degree or another. There's not one single fucking "normative" expectation that isn't questioned by queer culture.  now many want to be the gay huxtables. but most don't give a shit. I think you first have to bifurcate these two major cultures, then you can discuss open relationships in each culture (or subcultures).

the conversations will go in wildly different directions, wildly.

[Don Johnson 4744]

On 1/23/2024 at 8:19 PM, chainsaw said:

Who said anything about nature? Why are you bringing science into this? Common sense is common sense. Setting aside the fact that people slept around long before birth control, non-monogamy is not only about intercourse and it may even have nothing at all to do with sex. A husband could be more into sports than his wife and have a connection with another woman who likes to watch games with him. A "date" between the husband and his friend that would end a lot of strictly monogamous marriages is totally fine in an open marriage. Could those dates lead to sex? If everyone consents, sure. If not, that's still non-monogamy. No sex required.

 

On 1/23/2024 at 8:20 PM, immamac said:

No…that’s just called having a friend who likes football. 

 

On 1/23/2024 at 8:21 PM, chainsaw said:

Yeah, but spending your Saturday with her to the exclusion of your wife? That's ENM territory.

I think I just realized I'm bi-sexual and in an ENM relationship with some guys I watch games with.