2024 Presidential Election Thread - Let's keep the party going.

[Goredho 17408]

Wrong.  Every stage is the "getting a nail-studded baseball bat rammed up our ass" stage.  That really distracts from any of the more subtle responses like bargaining or depression.

@NowThis says, "Wait, that's one of the stages of euphoric pleasure."

Edited July 18 by Goredho

[Ghost of LL 15531]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

you don't participate in game threads here very often do you? no it's histrionics the night of the debate. wink wink.

find the progression of my thinking - and I'll readily admit my thinking is fluid and it changes so it's the progression that matters - instead you picked initial reactions and hold that against me. that's way more disingenuous LL than my fluidity and progression of thought.

that same night I posted about his waffle house comment "it's hard to debate a liar" and then the next day I watched and acknowledged his NC speech performance and said on this thread we need more of that, maybe he can come around. I started to come around to the spin approach.

I then typed out the spin response I would go with, saying something to the effect that Biden should go on the George Steph interview and say, "look, I'm old, I get it and I've slowed some, but I'm still in the game. arguing about golf was childish, but look I was flabergasted and the lies, man the lies. Look you can't respond to 20 lies in 60 seconds. I didn't do a good job, but hey, look, he's a con a convicted felon, rapist, insurrectionist and so let's talk about what matters, are we going to save democracy? if so America has to vote for me."

So within 1-2 days I had shifted.

After that, I thought his interviews and oval office speeches were fine and noticed the media were latching on to one or two word mix ups which I think is entirely unfair.

But the drum beat wouldn't stop.

and here we are.

so next time you want to waste billable hours digging through my posts and quoting me, please - as a friend - get it right.

 

ps - I pulled you in there to say I agree dem voters think for themselves too it was agreeing with one of your earlier statements.  sorry if it pissed you off. you of all people should know I'm nothing if not genuine.

First off--you're my friend and I love you.  If my words are heated, I apologize.  It's just this war and that lying sonofabitch Johnson.

Second, I pulled the receipts to show that you yourself recognized that it was not merely "a bad debate performance," and you've never tried to cast it as such.  Your suggested spin response of "look, I'm old, I get it and I've slowed some, . . ." acknowledged the catastrophic nature of the debate; it didn't try to minimize it. 

And I think it's very wrong to think that it could have been minimized as merely a bad debate performance.  Anyone trying to do so would've lost credibility. 

Third, the rally-around-the-candidate idea goes both ways.  And right now, somewhere around two-thirds to three-quarters of Democrats think Biden needs to drop out.  It's time for Biden to hear the will of the people and for his supporters to rally around Kamala Harris.  Only that is going to enable us to run an effective campaign against Donald Trump.

[Aqua Buddha 14598]

Any chance this gets thrown into some mini primary or floor vote?  Still think Whitmer wins that.

[nbmishoid 949]

Sadly,, yes.  So long, Joe 

[mdmost 43004]

Yeah Biden can say he won the primary fair and square which is true. Then new shit came to light or more old shit that was papered over by limiting his appearances came to light. If there's no enthusiasm to vote for him then down ballot will lose as well. 

[Texaus 377]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

Any chance this gets thrown into some mini primary or floor vote?  Still think Whitmer wins that.

IMO, that’s better option than an immediate nod to Harris. Don’t think it’ll happen though.

[Pato del Muerto 52507]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

My wife has been on two progressive calls this morning. Lot of smoke pouring out of the White House. 

But what color smoke?

[mdmost 43004]

2 minutes ago, Texaus said:

IMO, that’s better option than an immediate nod to Harris. Don’t think it’ll happen though.

That's a first class ticket to black people abandoning you at the polls. You cannot skip over the first black female VP for a white woman. You may pull more independents but a good chunk that you need in a place like Georgia are gone if you skip Kamala. And you know who else wouldn't do that? Gretchen Whitmer. 

Edited July 18 by mdmost

[troph 24810]

18 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

First off--you're my friend and I love you.  If my words are heated, I apologize.  It's just this war and that lying sonofabitch Johnson.

Second, I pulled the receipts to show that you yourself recognized that it was not merely "a bad debate performance," and you've never tried to cast it as such.  Your suggested spin response of "look, I'm old, I get it and I've slowed some, . . ." acknowledged the catastrophic nature of the debate; it didn't try to minimize it. 

And I think it's very wrong to think that it could have been minimized as merely a bad debate performance.  Anyone trying to do so would've lost credibility. 

Third, the rally-around-the-candidate idea goes both ways.  And right now, somewhere around two-thirds to three-quarters of Democrats think Biden needs to drop out.  It's time for Biden to hear the will of the people and for his supporters to rally around Kamala Harris.  Only that is going to enable us to run an effective campaign against Donald Trump.

I stand by my assertions today that the performance - in and of itself - was not devastating to the candidate. Make no mistake it was a terrible performance, but debates really don't matter.  However, the response to the debate was what devastated Biden's chances. Maybe I can allow for an argument that it's semantics, but I don't think that's accurate.

and I said those things you quoted when the debate was ongoing that is true. I make no apologies for the fact that my thinking is malleable, I consider it one of my greatest attributes and it keeps me from getting stuck in faulty or myopic thinking. It can result in people erroneously drawing the conclusion that I'm contradicting myself. Well, for those with rigid thinking, I guess I understand. But that's not correct either.

My bottom line and then I'm taking a break....

The best candidate is not present and won't show up because Biden did not decline a second term. Done. we gotta deal with what we've got now.

what's left - spin the debate performance - which was in the works immediately same night - and the news cycle moves on enough that Biden is still the best chance.

that didn't happen. instead the drum beat grew louder.

now we are talking a brokered convention (that alone is SHOCKING), an untested candidate, hoping the campaign infrastructure will just pass over to Harris/???, scrambling down the home stretch (including very little time to test messaging or recover from mistakes), and confirmation that the ticket really is for sale to a handful of billionaires (as reported in the NYT today).

mother fucker this is not good and everyone seems like zoolander "just do it" and yeah, that's disconcerting to me.

now what will I do? I will do what is required and rally around the nominee and shut my trap when Biden is out and praise the nominee for their strengths. I'll give money, I may travel to GOTV, I'll do my part.

But until then, I think we royally fucked up our hand - a hand that very easily could have won and it remains to be seen if Harris can actually pull this off.

The fact that dozens of posters on this board can't see that as a reasonable position is pretty disheartening because I think it cuts to the very core of the problem of how we play politics on our side (many times to our detriment).

Edited July 18 by troph

[troph 24810]

6 minutes ago, mdmost said:

That's a first class ticket to black people abandoning you at the polls. You cannot skip over the first black female VP for a white woman. You may pull more independents but a good chunk that you need in a place like Georgia are gone if you skip Kamala. And you know who else wouldn't do that? Gretchen Whitmer. 

agreed don't piss them off. black women will save America (again).

[nbmishoid 949]

Perfectly reasonable, Troph. 

[chainsaw 9869]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

the performance - in and of itself - was not devastating to the candidate.

I agree, but "in and of itself" is doing a ton of work here.

3 minutes ago, troph said:

the response to the debate was what devastated Biden's chances

Hard disagree. What devastated Biden's chances is that the performance was a symptom of something unfixable.

He's had a fair chance to show the world otherwise, and his failure to do so has nothing to do with the media or "the response" and everything to do with reality. The reality is that he hit a wall sometime between the 2020 race and today. He can't campaign anymore, but I really appreciate how smoothly he and his cabinet have run the country. I would trust him for another four years, even with diminished capacity, but running a country is one thing and winning an election is a whole other thing.

I don't feel like he can win an election in this condition, and that's not the fault of "the response."

[wildcat09 29355]

Those of you saying a brokered convention would be better than Harris absolutely do not understand politics and are going to drive me to drink an unhealthy amount of alcohol.

[troph 24810]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Those of you saying a brokered convention would be better than Harris absolutely do not understand politics and are going to drive me to drink an unhealthy amount of alcohol.

it's brokered no matter what. Biden has the votes. The brokering is happening right now. The only question is whether it's brokered before the convention starts or on the floor while the world watches. Knowing the Dems, it'll be done in public for everyone to see.

[Zonahorn 8079]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Those of you saying a brokered convention would be better than Harris absolutely do not understand politics and are going to drive me to drink an unhealthy amount of alcohol.

“Let’s blow up the coalition with a brutal floor fight and back room deal making so we can select somebody nobody voted for in the primaries.” 

God help my liver

[troph 24810]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I don't feel like he can win an election in this condition, and that's not the fault of "the response."

you can't say that in a vacuum with any real meaning. you have to say that compared to something. none of us know what Harris/??? will look like. now instead of one problem, one wildcard we have to consider what are the wildcards and what problems might Harris/??? present. the Dem strategists will earn their money and then some if Harris wins because they've got about a year's worth of work to do in about 30 days or less.

Edited July 18 by troph

[Ghost of LL 15531]

9 minutes ago, troph said:

now we are talking a brokered convention (that alone is SHOCKING), an untested candidate, hoping the campaign infrastructure will just pass over to Harris/???, scrambling down the home stretch (including very little time to test messaging or recover from mistakes), and confirmation that the ticket really is for sale to a handful of billionaires (as reported in the NYT today).

Ok--so here's the thing: once again I think the NYT is doing us all a disservice, because this isn't really the story.  And I infer that a fair amount of your frustration originates from this misleading NYT article.

It's not "a handful of billionaires" who think Joe Biden should stand down.  It's me.  It's the majority of posters on this thread.  It's somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of Democratic voters.  And on the night of the debate, it was you.

And that demonstrates that it wasn't "a handful of billionaires" who caused 70% of Democratic voters and a whole bunch of Democratic officeholders to reach that conclusion.  That was the immediate conclusion that both you and I separately reached that night.  You have changed your mind on that; I haven't.  But regardless--neither you nor I came to that thought based on any billionaire.

The NYT speaks of elites because the NYT is elite and that's the only thing it can conceive of.  But elite opinion immediately after the debate was 100% to rally around Biden and minimize that debate disaster.  The shift since doesn't represent the hidden hand of some nefarious elites.  It is a demonstration of the will of the Democratic grass roots.

[Rimbo 25946]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Ok--so here's the thing: once again I think the NYT is doing us all a disservice, because this isn't really the story.  And I infer that a fair amount of your frustration originates from this misleading NYT article.

It's not "a handful of billionaires" who think Joe Biden should stand down.  It's me.  It's the majority of posters on this thread.  It's somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of Democratic voters.  And on the night of the debate, it was you.

And that demonstrates that it wasn't "a handful of billionaires" who caused 70% of Democratic voters and a whole bunch of Democratic officeholders to reach that conclusion.  That was the immediate conclusion that both you and I separately reached that night.  You have changed your mind on that; I haven't.  But regardless--neither you nor I came to that thought based on any billionaire.

The NYT speaks of elites because the NYT is elite and that's the only thing it can conceive of.  But elite opinion immediately after the debate was 100% to rally around Biden and minimize that debate disaster.  The shift since doesn't represent the hidden hand of some nefarious elites.  It is a demonstration of the will of the Democratic grass roots.

Bullshit.

[chainsaw 9869]

1 minute ago, troph said:

a year's worth of work to do in about 30 days or less.

Most of the strategy was going to be negative campaigning against Trump, so that stays the same. In fact very little would need to change other than signage and a few websites. There would be a huge enthusiasm bump and it also forces the republicans to scrap a ton of their work.

[Dnaguy 11981]

7 hours ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Biden/Harris have the best odds of beating Donald. The media is doing a hell of a job right now 

[troph 24810]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

Ok--so here's the thing: once again I think the NYT is doing us all a disservice, because this isn't really the story.  And I infer that a fair amount of your frustration originates from this misleading NYT article.

It's not "a handful of billionaires" who think Joe Biden should stand down.  It's me.  It's the majority of posters on this thread.  It's somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of Democratic voters.  And on the night of the debate, it was you.

And that demonstrates that it wasn't "a handful of billionaires" who caused 70% of Democratic voters and a whole bunch of Democratic officeholders to reach that conclusion.  That was the immediate conclusion that both you and I separately reached that night.  You have changed your mind on that; I haven't.  But regardless--neither you nor I came to that thought based on any billionaire.

The NYT speaks of elites because the NYT is elite and that's the only thing it can conceive of.  But elite opinion immediately after the debate was 100% to rally around Biden and minimize that debate disaster.  The shift since doesn't represent the hidden hand of some nefarious elites.  It is a demonstration of the will of the Democratic grass roots.

I did not say a handful of billionaires are the only ones asking him to step down, I'm saying a handful of billionaires (to be fair there are probably dozens of 9 figure donors in that group too) used money to influence Senators and Congressmen to be vocal in asking him to step down.

I get you want him to step down. I get a lot of people want him to. I've never argued that, in fact I've conceded that left and right.

But you know why he is stepping down if he in fact is? because Senators and Congressmen are telling him to and the Party is not rallying around him, and that article suggests the big money has dried up and has been shifted to pay for the drum beat.

so tell me? if you disagree with that assertion, who is making him step down? and you can't say it's you, because we mean jack fucking squat here.

[Js1 85353]

8 minutes ago, Zonahorn said:

“Let’s blow up the coalition with a brutal floor fight and back room deal making so we can select somebody nobody voted for in the primaries.” 

God help my liver

Yep. If this happens, it’s Joever

[troph 24810]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Most of the strategy was going to be negative campaigning against Trump, so that stays the same. In fact very little would need to change other than signage and a few websites. There would be a huge enthusiasm bump and it also forces the republicans to scrap a ton of their work.

I disagree. I think there is a VERY heavy lift here, you didn't even mention defensive responses, but I DO agree most is negative campaigning and there would be a boost in enthusiasm, but I don't know if that will be offset by a new "anti-vote" among suburban white women, and others. to down play the amount of unknowns here does us all a disservice.

[Rimbo 25946]

I swear. This thread is the only place I see on the entire internet where Biden is suddenly this feeble Lame Duck candidate that just HAS to be removed or else Trump will become dictator. Everywhere else, they're circling the wagons.

Bizarro world is here. Reality is not reflected in this thread. Get a clue.

[Dnaguy 11981]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Most of the strategy was going to be negative campaigning against Trump, so that stays the same. In fact very little would need to change other than signage and a few websites. There would be a huge enthusiasm bump and it also forces the republicans to scrap a ton of their work.

Republicans are confident now with a 78 year old who looked virile during an assassination attempt because they’re facing an old, forgetful codger.

They’ll be shitting their pants if they had to face a wildcard with message discipline. All their guns are pointed to Joe. They aren’t nimble enough to face anything else IMO other than a complete shit-tasting dud or a Hillary type figure with 30 years of political baggage.

[Bullneck 19107]

55 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Well some people want him to do that and let her have the bully pulpit and basically running as an incumbent. 

Dateline Whitehouse is speaking about:

• the enthusiasm gap for volunteer workers in battleground states,
• the fact that Nancy Pelosi has herself stepped aside when the burden of leadership was too great.

[wildcat09 29355]

8 minutes ago, Zonahorn said:

“Let’s blow up the coalition with a brutal floor fight and back room deal making so we can select somebody nobody voted for in the primaries.” 

God help my liver

Specifically, back room deal making by people who have no real constituencies in the party! This isn't 1950; the delegates aren't actually important party officials who represent local interests or specific interest groups! It's just fuckin random Democrats who wanted to go to the convention because they're dorks and agreed to vote for Biden! Just tossing it to them and telling them to figure it out would be completely fucking insane and would destroy the party.

[wildcat09 29355]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Dateline Whitehouse is speaking about:

• the enthusiasm gap for volunteer workers in battleground states,
• the fact that Nancy Pelosi has herself stepped aside when the burden of leadership was too great.

Oh fuck that. She stepped aside only after she lost the majority. Nancy is not trying to push Biden out for the good of the party or the good of America, she's doing this for the wealthy donors she's friends with.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

5 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I swear. This thread is the only place I see on the entire internet where Biden is suddenly this feeble Lame Duck candidate that just HAS to be removed or else Trump will become dictator. Everywhere else, they're circling the wagons.

Bizarro world is here. Reality is not reflected in this thread. Get a clue.

I mean this with all due respect, but I think that first paragraph inadvertently says more about you than it does about us.

[Ghost of LL 15531]

9 minutes ago, troph said:

I did not say a handful of billionaires are the only ones asking him to step down, I'm saying a handful of billionaires (to be fair there are probably dozens of 9 figure donors in that group too) used money to influence Senators and Congressmen to be vocal in asking him to step down.

I get you want him to step down. I get a lot of people want him to. I've never argued that, in fact I've conceded that left and right.

But you know why he is stepping down if he in fact is? because Senators and Congressmen are telling him to and the Party is not rallying around him, and that article suggests the big money has dried up and has been shifted to pay for the drum beat.

so tell me? if you disagree with that assertion, who is making him step down? and you can't say it's you, because we mean jack fucking squat here.

Donors play a part, of course.  But it's not just them.  It's volunteers.  And it's local party officials.  And they're all signaling that there is a massive enthusiasm gap.

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh fuck that. She stepped aside only after she lost the majority. Nancy is not trying to push Biden out for the good of the party or the good of America, she's doing this for the wealthy donors she's friends with.

She's doing it because she has the best political instincts of any Democrat of her generation.  And she sees an iceberg dead ahead.

I think you're giving her far too little credit when you ascribe her political instincts to some donors.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

Reminder that the Trump/Vance ticket is incredibly easy to campaign against if you are capable of delivering the message:

'

[Js1 85353]

Give her the damn ticket

[Texaus 377]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Specifically, back room deal making by people who have no real constituencies in the party! This isn't 1950; the delegates aren't actually important party officials who represent local interests or specific interest groups! It's just fuckin random Democrats who wanted to go to the convention because they're dorks and agreed to vote for Biden! Just tossing it to them and telling them to figure it out would be completely fucking insane and would destroy the party.

I’m already drunk.

I am in agreement with you in principle, but Im just not hopeful that Harris gets the win because of her skin color. I’d like to win this one, so please convince me I’m wrong.
 

The fact we are even doing this bullshit is 100% on the Biden/harris camp lie we were fed about his fitness to be the nominee.

there was a mini primary idea floated that involved town halls and seemed reasonable to me. 
 

[Red Five 40859]

12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I swear. This thread is the only place I see on the entire internet where Biden is suddenly this feeble Lame Duck candidate that just HAS to be removed or else Trump will become dictator. Everywhere else, they're circling the wagons.

Bizarro world is here. Reality is not reflected in this thread. Get a clue.

I can't speak to what you're looking at online, but are you aware of all of the calls from prominent democrats for Biden to drop out? Some issued publicly and some told to Biden in person. You think this is a Surly issue only?

[Hank Kingsley 20959]

15 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I swear. This thread is the only place I see on the entire internet where Biden is suddenly this feeble Lame Duck candidate that just HAS to be removed or else Trump will become dictator. Everywhere else, they're circling the wagons.

Bizarro world is here. Reality is not reflected in this thread. Get a clue.

I encourage you to question what sites you’re looking at on the internet, and to also have updated conversations with friends/colleagues. 

[Firemans4Horn 18076]

16 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I swear. This thread is the only place I see on the entire internet where Biden is suddenly this feeble Lame Duck candidate that just HAS to be removed or else Trump will become dictator. Everywhere else, they're circling the wagons.

Bizarro world is here. Reality is not reflected in this thread. Get a clue.

[wildcat09 29355]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

Donors play a part, of course.  But it's not just them.  It's volunteers.  And it's local party officials.  And they're all signaling that there is a massive enthusiasm gap.

She's doing it because she has the best political instincts of any Democrat of her generation.  And she sees an iceberg dead ahead.

I think you're giving her far too little credit when you ascribe her political instincts to some donors.

Nancy has exhibited dogshit political instincts for the entirety of the Trump era of American politics and hasn't spoken with anyone who could be confused for a regular American in years.  She's the definition of an out-of-touch California liberal.  

I don't disagree with you that most Democratic voters would prefer a younger candidate or that there is an enthusiasm problem now that has been exacerbated by the debate. But parallel to that is absolutely an attempt by wealthy donors to regain greater control over the party and they're just using the debate as a pretext for that, and their ratfucking campaign has helped continue to churn out more and more media focus on this. They're even admitting that it's not about the debate on the record to the Times. That's fucking brazen. And what's really rotten about it is none of them are saying they'll support Harris.

If they get what they want and Biden steps aside, I bet they'll only be further emboldened and they'll try to ratfuck Harris too. Because with these assholes, if they can't control the party then they don't care if it survives.

[mdmost 43004]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Give her the damn ticket

That's the thing. Who is going to deliver this message better? Kamala or Joe? Right now, it's not Joe. Would it be Joe in September and October? It's got to be her. Your record in the office doesn't seem to be resonating. So now you have to contrast yourself with the other guy. I just don't see this era of Joe Biden able to do that any longer in a way that won't have people white knuckling the entire speech.

Do we honestly feel Biden is going to get better at delivering the message in a way that resonates with voters? I just don't see it any longer. The perception of him is now the reality. You can blame the media. You can also blame screwing up on the biggest stage imaginable. 

Edited July 18 by mdmost

[troph 24810]

12 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Donors play a part, of course.  But it's not just them.  It's volunteers.  And it's local party officials.  And they're all signaling that there is a massive enthusiasm gap.

 

I saw that and agree re volunteers but I won't go back into why I think we are here. Instead I will repeat that as of now I agree he has to step down, and I haven't argued otherwise. I'm angered that we are at this juncture and for the causes (which some of you dispute), that's all.

5 minutes ago, Red Five said:

I can't speak to what you're looking at online, but are you aware of all of the calls from prominent democrats for Biden to drop out? Some issued publicly and some told to Biden in person. You think this is a Surly issue only?

I mean it's probably a surly 0.01% issue for sure. It's being reported several of those Dems were money whipped to speak out against Biden publicly.

Edited July 18 by troph

[troph 24810]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Give her the damn ticket

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

55 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Any chance this gets thrown into some mini primary or floor vote?  Still think Whitmer wins that.

Yeah, we know. You’ve made your fanboi obsession with Whitmer perfectly clear over and over and over again. We get it. 

Edited July 18 by WhatTheBuck

[troph 24810]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

Yeah, we know. You’ve made your fanboi obsession with Whitmer perfectly clear over and over and over again. We get it. 

I mean his username kinda checks out.

[Js1 85353]

12 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Reminder that the Trump/Vance ticket is incredibly easy to campaign against if you are capable of delivering the message:

'

Hit the points. Made the argument. Clever little quip at the end.

She got this. Busting out my Kamala Harris For the People shirt 

Edited July 18 by Js1

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

NYT says Biden knows it’s over. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/18/us/politics/biden-election-drop-out.html

[troph 24810]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Hit the points. Made the argument. Clever little quip at the end.

She got this 

no doubt she's a fantastic orator and debater, one of the best in a long while, but we knew that from her primary run in 2020. Maybe its PTSD from HRC and post-Obama backlash, but god I hope we don't run into a racist/sexist anti-Harris buzz saw (among suburban white women and others) in swing states. The number of women who might vote for a man (Dem) but will simply say a woman (per se) isn't qualified to be POTUS might shock us all.

Edited July 18 by troph

[gmr548 16580]

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Lol.  Oh, so you were saying the Governor of Pennsylvania has "high name recognition" in...checks notes...Pennsylvania?

And no... I was born in PA and still have a lot family there, but I live in Austin.

Jesus. Yes, that's the point, the lack of national name recognition for Shapiro is not as big of a deal because he is well known and liked in Pennsylvania. You may have heard that the results in PA are somewhat important in this election given the Electoral College implications. To the extent that a VP moves the needle, and I don't think it's very much, that is a value add over the Governor of KY who is a JAG in the minds of undecided voters in swing states.

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

From the Times yesterday:

This is very clearly a literal Dem elite conspiracy that at least to a significant degree isn't even a response to the debate, but to Biden's too-progressive (in their eyes) domestic policies and their lack of access to and control over the White House. The debate was just the perfect excuse for many of these guys.  But the problem is that Biden really can't rebut the narrative that has taken on a life of its own. Sometimes he's energetic, but he'll stumble, and sometimes it's really bad like in that BET interview. And this is still THE story even during the RNC right after someone took a shot at Trump, so it's pretty clear that the NYTimes and other corporate media won't end up moving on to something else, but will keep fucking this chicken right up to the election.  There's an alternate timeline where Biden is still like a 25% better communicator than he is now where he could probably run against the party elites and the media on this and even turn it into a positive issue for him, but that's not the Biden we have.

I don't even know that it actually improves our chances, but I think at this point it would be best for Biden to step aside for Harris.  The media will absolutely try to ratfuck her too, but at least she might be able to counter whatever they're going to hit her on. But she'll need to run as the inheritor of Biden's more progressive policies and somehow rebuke the donors for trying to take over the entire party.  Because if she begins showing signs of moderating to please the donors after they sabotaged Biden in a hissy fit that he wasn't treating them like special boys, the party will tear itself apart. 

I tend to agree. The Biden administration has been the most progressive in my lifetime and governed in a much more progressive manner than I, and I think most of the progressive wing of the party, expected. I think this is why the progressive wing of the party is pretty quiet when it comes to calling for him to go. That and they mostly represent relatively safe seats with little incentive to participate in this spectacle at all.

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

That is not at all what happened in 2015/16.  And I'm really starting to get very pissed at Biden and his people for out-and-out lying about this shit.

Biden didn't run in 2016 because he was sad about Beau's death.  And I remember that, because a lot of us really wanted him to run because we knew Hillary was a flawed candidate.  Fatally so, as it turned out.  And when the country needed Joe to step in and run in 2016, he took a pass.

So don't tell me know that he was "pushed aside."  That's bullshit.

And between that lie and the lies that Biden's people have been telling all of us for the past however-long about Biden's supposed continued mental acuity and the lies that anybody who even asked a question about it was guilty of "ageism," . . . you know--I just don't really trust these people anymore.  And I think they ought to all leave the White House with a sense of embarrassment.

Yeah I remember there being a bit of a "will he or won't he" speculation in political circles and he has said himself on several occasions that he did not feel ready or able to mount a successful campaign. A bit of irony really given the relative lack of self awareness now.

['stache 21817]

I'm on board with someone more energetic pushing back against these assholes. Let's get it done this weekend and push forward. It has to be Kamala for a number of reasons, and even if she isn't the first choice for some, every dem needs to agree to publicly bet behind her or to shut the fuck up.

Edited July 18 by 'stache

[Horn Dog 9872]

7 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

NYT says Biden knows it’s over. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/18/us/politics/biden-election-drop-out.html

[Texaus 377]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

Maybe its PTSD from HRC and post-Obama backlash, but god I hope we don't run into a racist/sexist anti-Harris buzz saw (among suburban white women and others) in swing states. The number of women who might vote for a man (Dem) but will simply say a woman (per se) isn't qualified to be POTUS might shock us all.

Why would anyone expect anything else? We’re fucked

[Brisketexan 105152]

5 minutes ago, troph said:

but god I hope we don't run into a racist/sexist anti-Harris buzz saw (among suburban white women and others) in swing states. The number of women who might vote for a man (Dem) but will simply say a woman (per se) isn't qualified to be POTUS might shock us all.

It wouldn't shock me.  Not even a little bit.  A surprising percentage of women are really, really, really shitty in that respect.

And, Kamala at the top of the ticket will also drive up turnout among piece of shit white male voters who are racist and misogynist (so, the Trump base). If their turnout increases even 1-2%, then that may be enough to seal the deal.