2024 Presidential Election Thread - Let's keep the party going.

[SydneyCarton 48111]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

You're operating under the assumption that everyone (aside from fascists and idiots) are in favor of democracy.

Actually, I’m pretty sure that was my point. They your friends, not aside from, are fascist-different. Or in your words not in favor of democracy. 

[babysdaddy 2725]

It’s gonna get ugly

[mdmost 43004]

Old people tend to get mad and lash out when you tell them it's finally time to go to the old folk's home. 

[aggie08 21505]

23 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

The problem is there is no representation for the gray. 

Oh man, would you be absolutely terrified what's considered liberal ideology in the rest of the world vs. the milquetoast version we have here.

[hobbes2702 13047]

6 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Number 3 gets people to the polls and there is literally no evidence in the last 100 years that a contested convention hurt anything other than feelings. How would it hurt GOTV vs annointment? It creates factions? We already have them. Parties exist to consolidate factions. They do that through trial by combat. Welcome to a world called right now. 

I’m sure it won’t hurt the minority vote if Kamala is forced out in favor of candidate x. 
They should be consolidating those factions not working to deepen the divide. Which is all a “trial by combat” will do. 
I can’t believe anyone thinks it would do anything helpful. It’s a disaster of an idea. Especially for a party that already struggles to hold its coalitions together. 
It’s like the Bernie bros never happened.

[Pancho 44860]

NYT reporting radical republicans are already laying the groundwork to challenge the voter certification and the RNC isn’t saying whether they are involved or not

 

[DixonHur 11341]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

 

I don’t think that really applies to the people Dixon is talking about. They clearly are engaged in some way but they can’t get themselves to vote for Biden because a Trump presidency likely doesn’t affect them that much. Basically they don’t care about the people it does affect. That makes them assholes 

I'll be sure to share your concerns with them. 

I'm sure they'll be crushed to know a few anonymous posters on Surly think they are assholes.

[aggie08 21505]

2 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

 

 

It’s gonna get ugly

 

Well, yeah. Self-preservation is about to kick in hard. Unless it's "Biden steps down and endorses Kamala, and everyone keeps their jobs," shit's going to get real.

[Dahobbs 17625]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I'm not arguing the validity of the position.  Basically, most of them thought Biden was too old... then the debate happened, and they noped out.

The only other person I've heard them say they don't like is Newsome.  

They will not vote for any dem. They will find a reason no matter who it is. Just watch. 

[Horn Dogg 3914]

8 minutes ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

Trumpamania

 

Why don’t we just go ahead and skip to fucking President Camacho?

[mdmost 43004]

1 minute ago, Pancho said:

NYT reporting radical republicans are already laying the groundwork to challenge the voter certification and the RNC isn’t saying whether they are involved or not

 

Of course they will. This is the new way forward until Trump dies (of natural causes). 

[gmr548 16580]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

The issue I have with this logic is you're relying 100% on Dems to win the election.

I think anti-Trump is last for many independents.  My ranking would be:

1. the candidate

2. Dobbs - 

3. Project 2025 

4. Trump

Separated Dobbs and Project 2025 because I think they influence different people different ways (aside from the obvious national abortion ban in P2025).

Trump is last because I think a lot of us see him as nothing more than a puppet at this point.  We're not worried about him as much as the people surrounding him...IE Project 2025.

Trump, if he actually followed his beliefs, wouldn't be that bad.  He doesn't care about abortion, and when he gets off message on immigration, he has a few decent ideas, like automatic Green Cards for immigrants who earn a degree in the US.  Then his handlers scold him and the next day he changes course to propose an immigrant fighting league.

At the core of Trumpism, to the degree that there is such a thing, are his views on immigration and trade, along with orthodox Republican tax and regulatory cuts for the rich and corporations. His 10% tariffs and anything approaching mass deportation would make the post-COVID inflationary cycle look like child's play. He proposed the visas for degrees while pandering to tech money. He is willing to make that proposal because 1.) He'll tell anyone what they want to hear to get what he needs out of them; and 2.) He views IT workers much differently that the clearly racially motivated vitriol he has for migrants from Latin America. The visas for degrees bit is also bad policy that would actually accelerate the displacement of American workers in a way brown people coming across the border never has.

If Trump follows his beliefs we will experience a recession on par with 2008-10, if not worse.

[DixonHur 11341]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Actually, I’m pretty sure that was my point. They your friends, not aside from, are fascist-different. Or in your words not in favor of democracy. 

I'm not particularly in favor of democracy either.  

I mean, look where it's gotten us.

[hobbes2702 13047]

Just now, DixonHur said:

I'll be sure to share your concerns with them. 

I'm sure they'll be crushed to know a few anonymous posters on Surly think they are assholes.

This is a weird response lol. 

[DixonHur 11341]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

They will not vote for any dem. They will find a reason no matter who it is. Just watch. 

That possible is certainly not out of the question, but age and cognitive abilities seem to be the main sticking points.

[SydneyCarton 48111]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'm not particularly in favor of democracy either.  

I mean, look where it's gotten us.

Tell us more. 

[hobbes2702 13047]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

They will not vote for any dem. They will find a reason no matter who it is. Just watch. 

Had this conversation literally yesterday after a friend texted…

“I hope they both die lol”

 “So you’ll vote for Kamala”

”depends what she’s campaigning on”

This is my shocked face

[David Dennison 18924]

2 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

If Trump follows his beliefs we will experience a recession on par with 2008-10, if not worse.

Remind me again, how did that work out for the rich?

[troph 24870]

3 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

If Trump follows his beliefs we will experience a recession on par with 2008-10, if not worse.

not until he has time to take credit for inflation decreases, stock market rallies to all time highs, and low unemployment rates.

[hobbes2702 13047]

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'm not particularly in favor of democracy either.  

I mean, look where it's gotten us.

You realize anti-democracy measures are what’s gotten us here right? What an insane post.

Edited July 19 by hobbes2702

[Snake Diggity 4625]

14 minutes ago, TheStoicPaisano said:

Trumpamania

 

 

5 minutes ago, Horn Dogg said:

Why don’t we just go ahead and skip to fucking President Camacho?

Yep.  Idiocracy come to life.  Fml.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Slavery was kinda undemocratic

[DixonHur 11341]

3 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

At the core of Trumpism, to the degree that there is such a thing, are his views on immigration and trade, along with orthodox Republican tax and regulatory cuts for the rich and corporations. His 10% tariffs and anything approaching mass deportation would make the post-COVID inflationary cycle look like child's play. He proposed the visas for degrees while pandering to tech money. He is willing to make that proposal because 1.) He'll tell anyone what they want to hear to get what he needs out of them; and 2.) He views IT workers much differently that the clearly racially motivated vitriol he has for migrants from Latin America. The visas for degrees bit is also bad policy that would actually accelerate the displacement of American workers in a way brown people coming across the border never has.

If Trump follows his beliefs we will experience a recession on par with 2008-10, if not worse.

I think the core of Trumpism is staying in power. Period.

The rest is just window dressing. 

He saw a niche on the right that he could exploit and he did.  I Don't even think he expected it to explode like it did.

[Chuckie Finster 22701]

It’s gonna get ugly

“Sources close to the President are furious at the push to get Biden off the ticket….
If they want him out, they’ll have to push.”

What is even happening anymore?

[David Dennison 18924]

Just now, Chuckie Finster said:

“Sources close to the President are furious at the push to get Biden off the ticket….
If they want him out, they’ll have to push.”

What are we even doing?

Mistakes were made.

[Dahobbs 17625]

11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That possible is certainly not out of the question, but age and cognitive abilities seem to be the main sticking points.

Your friends are liars. They are also assholes, morons, fascists, or a combination of the three. You have shitty people for friends. Deal with it. 

Edited July 19 by Dahobbs

[mdmost 43004]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Remind me again, how did that work out for the rich?

They're all going to flip to crypto

[DixonHur 11341]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Tell us more. 

I certainly don't claim to know what the best form of government is, but there's a book called The Dawn of Everything that talks about various forms over the years.

It turns out that even before the Greeks, our ancestors toyed with democracy in different parts of the world and all chose to go back to some sort of kingship or chiefdom, for various reasons... most notably the lack of accountability, and people working in their own self interest instead of that of people who selected them.

[David Dennison 18924]

3 minutes ago, mdmost said:

They're all going to flip to crypto

Sheeeeeeeeeit, they won't need crypto. They'll just buy up the rest of the country.

[SydneyCarton 48111]

Just now, DixonHur said:

I certainly don't claim to know what the best form of government is, but there's a book called The Dawn of Everything that talks about various forms over the years.

It turns out that even before the Greeks, our ancestors toyed with democracy in different parts of the world and all chose to go back to some sort of kingship or chiefdom, for various reasons... most notably the lack of accountability, and people working in their own self interest instead of that of people who selected them.

But when has that ever ended well for a majority of the people?

[DixonHur 11341]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Your friends are liars. They are also assholes, morons, fascists, or a combination of the three. You have shitty people for friends. Deal with it. 

[Ghost of LL 15539]

22 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

 

 

It’s gonna get ugly

 

Given that they’ve been lying to the country about Biden’s mental state for the better part of a year, I don’t give a fuck about their fucking feelings.

[DixonHur 11341]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

But when has that ever ended well for a majority of the people?

Apparently.  The Native Americans seemed to like it.

And when I lived in the Czech Republic, many of the older folks pined for the days of communism.

[Dahobbs 17625]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Don't blame us for your shitty choices. Sucks you have to find out this way. I actually mean that. 

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Apparently.  The Native Americans seemed to like it.

And when I lived in the Czech Republic, many of the older folks pined for the days of communism.

They never had communism. Again, also idiots. 

[Nicole44 22063]

1 minute ago, mdmost said:

Old people tend to get mad and lash out when you tell them it's finally time to go to the old folk's home. 

I’ve been there with my grandmother and aunt. I don’t want to use the word fortunate but with my grandmother’s situation my grandfather passed before her. She was able to still live at home and my aunt and uncle lived just down the road. When she started declining she fought any discussion for the next stages of her life. One day she got on a ladder and fell and broke her arm which gave us the ability to put her “in the home” to recover while she thought it was temporary. By the time a month had passed she had adjusted in the Alzheimer’s home. 

No one knows what is wrong with Joe but I found his defiance to take a simple fucking MOCA test concerning. It’s a simple test. It should be given to anyone over 65 to make sure they don’t have dementia or Alzheimer’s or a host of other things that present that way. There are treatments and trials and radical diet changes to slow the spread of it and to help the person. I pray privately that he has been diagnosed and they are treating him bc he is a person. First and foremost. My 65 year old aunt failed that MOCA test badly. And the decline after the diagnosis was swift and merciless. 

[SydneyCarton 48111]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Apparently.  The Native Americans seemed to like it.

And when I lived in the Czech Republic, many of the older folks pined for the days of communism.

So why don’t you vote for Trump?

[DixonHur 11341]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

They never had communism. Again, also idiots. 

The Czechs would be shocked to learn they weren't living under communism.

You should head over there post haste to let them know.

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

So why don’t you vote for Trump?

[Bozo_Casanova 26493]

30 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I’m sure it won’t hurt the minority vote if Kamala is forced out in favor of candidate x. 

The what vote? The “minority” vote? 
 

 

30 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

They should be consolidating those factions not working to deepen the divide. Which is all a “trial by combat” will do. 

Who is “they?” Oh and while you’re at it, explain how Donald Trump basically beating the financial establishment and foreign policy factions of his party into submission dampened turnout, or any other example of intra party factional combat that hurt turnout. Even the much vilified Bernie Bros showed up and voted for Hillary in 2016.

 

30 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I can’t believe anyone thinks it would do anything helpful. It’s a disaster of an idea. Especially for a party that already struggles to hold its coalitions together. 
It’s like the Bernie bros never happened

because it didnt. fewer Bernie voters flipped to Trump than Clinton voters to McCain or Kashich voters to Clinton, to wit:

It’s a perennial question whether supporters of losing primary candidates will vote for their party’s nominee in the general election. So let’s compare the Democratic primary with the Republican primary. In the VOTER Survey, only 3 percent of those supporting Texas Sen. Ted Cruz reported voting for Hillary Clinton, as did 10 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio’s supporters and 32 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich’s supporters. So Sanders supporters were about as likely to vote for Trump as Rubio’s supporters were to vote for Clinton, and far less likely than Kasich supporters were to vote for Clinton.

 

Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election.

Edited July 19 by Bozo_Casanova

[Dahobbs 17625]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So why don’t you vote for Trump?

Imagine wanting to throw away the system of government that has resulted in the highest standard of living in history because someone like Trump is making you work to keep it. Fucking insanity. 

[hookem2010 2624]

9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I certainly don't claim to know what the best form of government is, but there's a book called The Dawn of Everything that talks about various forms over the years.

It turns out that even before the Greeks, our ancestors toyed with democracy in different parts of the world and all chose to go back to some sort of kingship or chiefdom, for various reasons... most notably the lack of accountability, and people working in their own self interest instead of that of people who selected them.

It's been a minute, but I feel like I took something different from that book. Primarily that social and governmental configurations could be fluid within a society, and that often these "kingdoms" were ruled by someone who often only had the power to directly affect those in their immediate sphere. So people could just kind of move away a bit. Not nearly the level of power one would generally think of with a king.

And, at least in the plains tribes, I don't believe chiefs had a whole lot of power to coerce their tribespeople to do anything they didn't want to do l.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5793]

4 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

 

 

[Goredho 17409]

34 minutes ago, Horn Dogg said:

Why don’t we just go ahead and skip to fucking President Camacho?

That'd be an upgrayedd

[DixonHur 11341]

1 minute ago, hookem2010 said:

It's been a minute, but I feel like I took something different from that book. Primarily that social and governmental configurations could be fluid within a society, and that often these "kingdoms" were ruled by someone who often only had the power to directly affect those in their immediate sphere. So people could just kind of move away a bit. Not nearly the level of power one would generally think of with a king.

And, at least in the plains tribes, I don't believe chiefs had a whole lot of power to coerce their tribespeople to do anything they didn't want to do l.

This correct for many of the Native Tribes...but not all.  I didn't mean to insinuate that the leaders were tyrants.  

My choice would be the Canadian tribes that interacted with the French, and considered them to be slaves to their leaders.

I think nation states are the issue no matter how they are governed.

[Dahobbs 17625]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

The Czechs would be shocked to learn they weren't living under communism.

The Soviets were communists in name only. It was truly a totalitarian dictatorship for most of its life. It was highly class based instead of classless. And the workers controlled absolutely nothing.  

[DixonHur 11341]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

The Soviets were communists in name only. It was truly a totalitarian dictatorship for most of its life. It was highly class based instead of classless. And the workers controlled absolutely nothing.  

Well, you're more than welcome to explain the finer points to them, but they felt like they were taken care of by the state and once "communism" ended many of the working class felt they were worse off.

[David Dennison 18924]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Well, you're more than welcome to explain the finer points to them, but they felt like they were taken care of by the state and once "communism" ended many of the working class felt they were worse off.

We live in a paradise where the state takes care of those who have the means to take care of themselves.

Yay!

[closetohumping 17452]

Top democrat officials letting Biden know that funds may dry up in fall if he don’t dip

[mdmost 43004]

It's going to get really bad until it gets better over the weekend. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26493]

10 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

 

 

[Nicole44 22063]

Just now, closetohumping said:

Top democrat officials letting Biden know that funds may dry up in fall if he don’t dip

Katzneberg allegedly met with Biden in Nevada yesterday before the Covid and told him the money is drying up. And it was bad. K is his buddy. He wasn’t telling him like the politicians to drop out bc they worry about their own ticket. He wasn’t pointing to polls. That don’t mean shit this far out. He was saying we are fucked because there is no more money.