2024 Presidential Election Thread - Let's keep the party going.

Bateshorn · October 22

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The previous, and proposed admin has said they will increase funding and support, which Israel will use to intensify their massacre. This isn’t some sort of Sophie’s choice. It’s bad but negotiable vs worse and hardline. Choose worse and you reap what you sow.

este. Biden (and Harris) for all their faults on this issue, are the only thing keeping the slaughter to war based mass murder at this point. If Trump wins, ethnic cleansing is going to be on the table. Settlers are already engaging in low intensity cleansing in the West Bank with the Army's tacit support, but quietly due to State Department objections. How is that going to look when Rick Grennell is SoS?

Todd Gack · October 22

Just now, aggie08 said:

Your contention is that Kamala should have been trying harder to convince Biden to halt all weapons to Israel? And you want her to win the election? Because those two thoughts are completely incongruous.

We'll see what her actions are as POTUS, but, right now, she has absolutely no choice but to walk the tight rope.

That's correct. It's the moral thing to do. Complete weapons embargo until Israel demonstrates that they're at least trying to avoid killing innocent kids - maybe force them to stop bombing schools and refugee encampments.

Winning the election has to be about more than just getting the most aipac money they can so they can buy ads telling people how horrible Trump is... everyone already knows.

wood · October 22

23 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Last election there were magatards trying to intimidate voters at the highland location.

AFD cruised up in their big fucking fire truck and unleashed a fire hydrant right at them.

It was glorious.

Hell yeah. That's my AFD.

jimmyjazz · October 22

1 hour ago, babysdaddy said:

I listened to Paul Tudor Jones this morning on CNBC and he said he expects deficits to increase $500B under Trump and another $600B on top of that if Harris wins.

Sure, sure, except this NEVER FUCKING HAPPENS THIS WAY.

bluto · October 22

3 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You say this and I tend to agree that a second Trump term will be far more dangerous to minorities. I’m terrified of it.

But consider the other perspective: the current administration is provably a disaster for Muslims in Gaza. Meanwhile, Trump was president for four years and his anti-Muslim rhetoric ultimately amounted to ineffective bluster.

If you’re a Muslim-American who survived the Trump presidency (despite facing frightening rhetoric and policy proposals) but whose friends or family did not survive the Biden term, which one do you view as the greater threat?

I think they’re discounting the risk of Trump, but I can understand why they might make that analytical mistake.

The Kurds in Syria would say Hi… but a lot of them died when Trump abandoned them

BrickHorn · October 22

13 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

If Trump wins, and the Isrealis begin to carpet bomb Gaza and Southern Lebanon, while accelerating land seizures in the West Bank, this post is going to age very, very poorly.

For the last time: I am not saying Trump will be better on Gaza. In fact, I believe he will be worse.

I am merely saying that reasonable people, based on a reasonable assessment of the information available to them, could conclude that he can’t be worse and that a change might improve things. And those same people might reasonably conclude, as a matter of moral principles, that they cannot support someone from an administration that has supported Israel in its Gaza actions.

Brisketexan · October 22

8 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

They’re not voting out or petulance, unless you think desperation to try anything to end the massacre of their friends and family is “petulant.” This isn’t a fucking tantrum.

Bullshit. The tipping point is absolutely petulance. The thinking is "my people are suffering, maybe you'll give me what I demand if I make EVERYONE suffer." It's fucking electoral blackmail and terrorism. Because it is not and cannot be any logical process of "Trump will be better for muslims and Gaza." He has literally said, and actually demonstrated, that he will not be.

9 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

How hard is it to understand that genocide is a serious issue and it’s not childish to take a moral stand against it (even if that requires making risky trade offs)?

It's not a "risky trade off." The fucking Leopard said he will eat your face.

16 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

~~The current administration~~ Longstanding bi-partisan American policy is funding the massacre of thousands of Muslims. Y’all conveniently always leave that inconvenient fact out, as if Trump’s white nationalist rhetoric is the only issue.

FIF accuracy, and a point that - if your guys claim to be thinking rationally (they're not, it's a tantrum -- "if I can't what I want, EVERYONE must suffer") - they would fucking see because it's been a neon-bright consistency of American policy for at least two generations.

No, they know exactly what they are doing, and exactly what they are voting for: they don't see a prospect of ending Palestinian suffering and securing victory for Gaza anytime soon, under any candidate.....so they intend to make everyone else feel some measure of that same pain. Fuck the latinos who will get fucked. Fuck the gays. Fuck the women. Maybe if they suffer enough pain, they'll join us in a "coalition of the suffering" and give us the ultimate victory we want. It is absolutely electoral terrorism, and I loathe them for it.

Tuco · October 22

6 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Your contention is that Kamala should have been trying harder to convince Biden to halt all weapons to Israel? And you want her to win the election? Because those two thoughts are completely incongruous.

We'll see what her actions are as POTUS, but, right now, she has absolutely no choice but to walk the tight rope.

Do you agree that tightrope changes when one side says "you have my vote no matter how much you ignore my concerns"?

Pato del Muerto · October 22

1 minute ago, bluto said:

The Kurds in Syria would say Hi… but a lot of them died when Trump abandoned them

Not long before he tried criticizing the Biden admin for the pullout of Afghanistan that Trump had negotiated.

aggie08 · October 22

1 minute ago, Tuco said:

Do you agree that tightrope changes when one side says "you have my vote no matter how much you ignore my concerns"?

You're going to have to spell this one out for me. I don't follow.

Chuckie Finster · October 22

For the last time: I am not saying Trump will be better on Gaza. In fact, I believe he will be worse.
I am merely saying that reasonable people, based on a reasonable assessment of the information available to them, could conclude that he can’t be worse and that a change might improve things. And those same people might reasonably conclude, as a matter of moral principles, that they cannot support someone from an administration that has supported Israel in its Gaza actions.

Many reasonable people concluded that Reggie Bush had a better 2005 season than Vince Young, yet that doesn’t mean their opinion has any basis in reality or should be considered worthwhile.

Concluding Trump will be better for Muslims is dumb. Asinine. Stupid. Insane. Moronic. On and on. I understand that this group is facing a trying time, but that doesn’t mean we need to try and rationalize their ignorance to reality.

Pato del Muerto · October 22

2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Do you agree that tightrope changes when one side says "you have my vote no matter how much you ignore my concerns"?

The playing field is the playing field. Let the other side offer a better alternative if they want the Muslim votes. That’s what would force a policy change. The idea that Trump can get their vote despite notably worse rhetoric and history doesn’t fit either.

The Dog · October 22

5 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I am merely saying that reasonable people, based on a reasonable assessment of the information available to them,

NO, they have been fed disinformation and propaganda to get a result.

It worked.

BrickHorn · October 22

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

if your guys claim to be thinking rationally (they're not, it's a tantrum -- "if I can't what I want, EVERYONE must suffer"

Holy shit that is the most gloriously ironic example of self-delusion I’ve ever read on this board. Are you serious?

You understand that this entire discussion started because several posters reacted to reports of Muslim support of Trump by freaking out and wishing harm on them?

If you’re looking for people having tantrums and demanding that anyone who doesn’t do what they want must suffer, look in the fucking mirror.

Edited October 22 by BrickHorn

Bateshorn · October 22

At least I'm not freaking out about the polls for a few minutes today....

wildcat09 · October 22

5 minutes ago, bluto said:

The Kurds in Syria would say Hi… but a lot of them died when Trump abandoned them

And we just barely avoided a direct war with Iran (that Trump pretty clearly wants to get back to) thanks to... a pandemic breaking out.

LCHorn · October 22

10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

They’re not voting out or petulance, unless you think desperation to try anything to end the massacre of their friends and family is “petulant.

11 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I’ve had these conversations with Muslim friends

Sorry dude, you read like someone who, by virtue of friendship, has had their reason compromised. And I would say the same to someone who has family in Gaza-they just aren’t able to make smart decisions at the moment.

It’s unfortunate that there’s so many innocents caught up in the violence, but the cold reality is the policy of the United States remains supportive of Israeli agency over alternatives and they should be voting for a Harris presidency that promises to at least show compassion to the Gazans who have lost so much.

TwiceHorn · October 22

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I can't speak for Arab Americans, but my experience with Iranians is that a lot of them like Trump as well.

My stab at why: They don't necessarily have an issue with a dictatorship or a fascist, power hungry leader. They think there is a possibility of good ones and bad ones. And they think Trump would do good.

People that emigrated from oppressive regimes, especially communist ones, seem to strongly prefer dictatorship to anything that might in some way be considered socialist.

Brian Fantana · October 22

11 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You say this and I tend to agree that a second Trump term will be far more dangerous to minorities. I’m terrified of it.

But consider the other perspective: the current administration is provably a disaster for Muslims in Gaza. Meanwhile, Trump was president for four years and his anti-Muslim rhetoric ultimately amounted to ineffective bluster.

If you’re a Muslim-American who survived the Trump presidency (despite facing frightening rhetoric and policy proposals) but whose friends or family did not survive the Biden term, which one do you view as the greater threat?

I think they’re discounting the risk of Trump, but I can understand why they might make that analytical mistake.

You're wasting your energy. Like 80% of the posters in this thread would rather not have to think about the situation in the first place or how the Biden administration is handling it.

Huckleberry · October 22

Nobody wished harm on them that I recall. They said they wouldn't feel bad when it happened. That's a significant difference.

Also, you are incorrect that a reasonable assessment based only on Arab relations would result in a vote for Trump. That's an absurd thing to say, really. Your argument makes more sense when you stick to ascribing their decision to emotion (they've seen people die) than reason. Because reason doesn't explain it, not even close.

Sawbonz · October 22

8 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

reasonable

SydneyCarton · October 22

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I can't speak for Arab Americans, but my experience with Iranians is that a lot of them like Trump as well.

My stab at why: They don't necessarily have an issue with a dictatorship or a fascist, power hungry leader. They think there is a possibility of good ones and bad ones. And they think Trump would do good.

Yes, we've all met Icono.

58 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

To share a bottle of whiskey with Brisket on the ledge, we are a few weeks a way from these 2 scenarios:

1. Trump loses, and there will be blood in the streets again. For those of us paying attention, we were not surprised at all with what happened on January 6th. Trump will deny election results but since he's not in power right now that will be tamped down legally fairly quickly. Eventually Trump makes the decision to run in 2028, or leave the country, or makes a deal to avoid jail time. If he goes away (inshallah), the GOP is in shambles and there is a glimmer of hope to pick up the pieces of American society and function again.

2. Trump wins, and society becomes completely broken for at least a generation if not more. The "civil war" won't be an actual war, but a clear separation within communities that will happen swiftly and silently. People will just find their tribe and hold on for dear life. It's already kind of been happening, but it will be much more obvious and the general apathy towards each side will make a lot of institutions in this country crumble.

If Trump loses, I don't think there will be fucking shit in the streets. These people are, at heart, all cowards. They won't be flocking to Washington while he's not President-elect or currently in office. They're not going to start a massive, organized protest organically somewhere else in the country. If he loses GA do we think a bunch of fucking racist whities are going to show up and try to Sherman the city of Atlanta? I don't, but holy shit I'm here to see it and will pop the fucking popcorn. Outside of my own amusement, hell, it's probably good news for the country long term for everyone to see what the R party supported. Sure, start some shit in a swing state. Or Florida. See what happens in real time and how that state votes for the next 15 years.

mdmost · October 22

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're wasting your energy. Like 80% of the posters in this thread would rather not have to think about the situation in the first place or how the Biden administration is handling it.

Or some of us know there's literally nothing Biden can do that won't lose Kamala votes. He withholds funding to Israel, he gives Trump an easy issue to rail on and he loses her Jewish votes. Bibi still doesn't stop the bombing and he whines that America doesn't have Israel's back. He doesn't do anything, he loses her Muslim votes.

Edited October 22 by mdmost

Dahobbs · October 22

10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

For the last time: I am not saying Trump will be better on Gaza. In fact, I believe he will be worse.

I am merely saying that reasonable people, based on a reasonable assessment of the information available to them, could conclude that he can’t be worse and that a change might improve things. And those same people might reasonably conclude, as a matter of moral principles, that they cannot support someone from an administration that has supported Israel in its Gaza actions.

The bolded is asinine. Reasonable people cannot conclude that. Unreasonable or ignorant people, sure. Desperate and panicky people, maybe. But, based on available information, there is no reasonable, logical argument that Trump will be anything but worse for that group of people.

Js1 · October 22

1 minute ago, mdmost said:

Or some of us know there's literally nothing Biden can do that won't lose Kamala votes. He withholds funding to Israel, he gives Trump an easy issue to rail on and he loses her Jewish votes. He doesn't do anything, he loses her Muslim votes.

It’s lose lose and Trump/Bibi have ensured that

BrickHorn · October 22

Just now, Dahobbs said:

The bolded is asinine. Reasonable people cannot conclude that. Unreasonable or ignorant people, sure. Desperate and panicky people, maybe. But, based on available information, there is no reasonable, logical argument that Trump will be anything but worse for that group of people.

Okay then. Lay out your argument.

Todd Gack · October 22

2 minutes ago, The Dog said:

NO, they have been fed disinformation and propaganda to get a result.

It worked.

I don't think this is accurate. Every major media outlet has a story/article when the Biden admin approves another round of weapons to Israel. Not disinformation.

And everyone who has tiktok, twitter, or instagram can see videos of kids with half their face missing or limbs blown off. I have an instagram I share with the wife and the ONLY people we follow are parenting experts, psychologists, teachers, etc. And several times now I've opened the app and the first fucking thing I see is a dead kid from Gaza. I don't think it's propaganda.

Foosters · October 22

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Holy shit that is the most gloriously ironic example of self-delusion I’ve ever read on this board. Are you serious?

You understand that this entire discussion started because several posters reacted to reports of Muslim support of Trump by freaking out and wishing harm on them?

If you’re looking for people having tantrums and demanding that anyone who doesn’t do what they want must suffer, look in the fucking mirror.

Do you share the same level of concern and empathy for women who are pro-choice who vote for Trump because he told them that "he's great for women." Is that reasonable?

Just trying to understand when were supposed to care when the leopards attack.

Bookman · October 22

Just now, BrickHorn said:

Okay then. Lay out your argument.

It can always get worse. There's no bottom.

Pancho · October 22

Tuco · October 22

7 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

You're going to have to spell this one out for me. I don't follow.

I am saying that the "walking a tightrope" analogy assumes some sort of balance between two bad consequences - falling off right or falling off left. In the case of political campaign, it generally means striking a balance that loses the least votes. And that affects policy between the elections. If the Arab American or Muslim American votes can just be assumed, there is no longer balance. It's not a tight rope anymore. Do you disagree with any of that?

BrickHorn · October 22

Just now, Foosters said:

Do you share the same level of concern and empathy for women who are pro-choice who vote for Trump because he told them that "he's great for women." Is that reasonable?

Apples and oranges. Trump altered the Supreme Court composition specifically to get rid of Roe. He has provably been worse for women than the Biden admin.

That’s not at all similar to the situation for Muslims.

Hank Kingsley · October 22

I'm sick to my stomach for what's happening in Gaza, and BIden has been a fucking disaster. A gargantuan fuckup nightmare.

Trump is literally in bed with Netanyahu. Being reasonable is thinking there's a better chance of Trump deporting or jailing Arab Americans in Michigan and throughout the US than lifting a finger to stop the genocide.

jimmyjazz · October 22

Regarding military support of Israel, it appears the spike in the last year is significantly related to missile defense (assuming I'm reading this chart correctly, and I may not be):

LCHorn · October 22

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

People that emigrated from oppressive regimes, especially communist ones, seem to strongly prefer dictatorship to anything that might in some way be considered socialist.

The Persians don’t really have any experience with socialism, but some of the olds do recall the Shah fondly and I think there’s some sympathy for the authoritarianism. The younger, 2nd gen vote like their white generational peers and most lean Dem because they had to become white collar professionals or risk the wrath of maman and baba.

Todd Gack · October 22

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Nobody wished harm on them that I recall. They said they wouldn't feel bad when it happened. That's a significant difference.

Also, you are incorrect that a reasonable assessment based only on Arab relations would result in a vote for Trump. That's an absurd thing to say, really. Your argument makes more sense when you stick to ascribing their decision to emotion (they've seen people die) than reason. Because reason doesn't explain it, not even close.

I believe Js1 mentioned a nuke. Though it may have been hyperbole, nukes don't tend to explode in 5x25 mile rectangles. Nobody should be indifferent to a nuke hitting any part of that region.

And I agree with the emotion part. Seeing the horrors of war on a smartphone elicits some kind of feeling, speaking personally. Of course I'm able to try and think logically so I know trump will almost certainly make it worse. But I'm not muslim and have no family in Palestine.

mchookem · October 22

6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

unless 'reasonable' has evolved to mean fascist and/or moronic.

nobody's buying that Trump is a 'reasonable' choice in any situation.

Brian Fantana · October 22

6 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Or some of us know there's literally nothing Biden can do that won't lose Kamala votes. He withholds funding to Israel, he gives Trump an easy issue to rail on and he loses her Jewish votes. Bibi still doesn't stop the bombing and he whines that America doesn't have Israel's back. He doesn't do anything, he loses her Muslim votes.

I'm with you. Which is why I'm still supportive of him and her. But I'm still right.

Js1 · October 22

5 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Unless this dude started mining bitcoin

Sawbonz · October 22

11 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Okay then. Lay out your argument.

Your premise is that it is reasonable to conclude, based on available information, that fewer Palestinians will die under a second Trump administration than a Harris administration

I think you need to lay out an argument for that, other than than “Israel is killing Palestinians under Biden’s watch”

Edited October 22 by Sawbonz
Strike that, reverse it

Gatorubet · October 22

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

People that emigrated from oppressive regimes, especially communist ones, seem to strongly prefer dictatorship to anything that might in some way be considered socialist.

My barber is an older Vietnamese man who came here in the 70s, and he totally buys Trump saying that Harris is a “communist”. Once you say “she’s a C word”, his brain shuts off.

4th&Five · October 22

mdmost · October 22

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm with you. Which is why I'm still supportive of him and her. But I'm still right.

You might be but I think it's a lot easier to force Bibi to the table when the threat of Trump is removed. Right now, Bibi won't lift a finger to help Kamala. Why would he? He can help gin up outrage and get the guy in who will not even bother asking him to stop. If she is elected, he'll start running out of options.

Edited October 22 by mdmost

NIUHuskies · October 22

Can I have your attention? Walz in Kentucky!

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/News/politics/elections/2024/10/21/tim-walz-to-campaign-in-louisville-ahead-of-election-day/75784621007/

Fudge Nuggets · October 22

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Remember, they did media studies that the more negative she went on Trump, the more it hurt her numbers. Voters responded way better to her positive ads.

She chased down dotard, passed him and built a lead while her campaign team was clowning his ass non-stop calling them weird, labeling JDV a couch fucker, hammering them about Project 2025, talking about women bleeding out in hospital parking lots, etc. Then they went cutsey compassionate and the lead is gone.

Js1 · October 22

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

People that emigrated from oppressive regimes, especially communist ones, seem to strongly prefer dictatorship to anything that might in some way be considered socialist.

Importing the culture they tried to escape. But god forbid a not-white-passing minority tries to do the same

Js1 · October 22

Just now, Fudge Nuggets said:

She chased down dotard, passed him and built a lead while her campaign team was clowning his ass non-stop calling them weird, labeling JDV a couch fucker, hammering them about Project 2025, talking about women bleeding out in hospital parking lots, etc. Then they went cutsey compassionate and the lead is gone.

Only if you believe the polls. Again, why would I believe a bunch of right wing slop that was wrong 2 years ago? But caused the media and pundits to declare it would be a red wave the week of the election?

Huckleberry · October 22

5 minutes ago, Todd Gack said:

I believe Js1 mentioned a nuke. Though it may have been hyperbole, nukes don't tend to explode in 5x25 mile rectangles. Nobody should be indifferent to a nuke hitting any part of that region.

And I agree with the emotion part. Seeing the horrors of war on a smartphone elicits some kind of feeling, speaking personally. Of course I'm able to try and think logically so I know trump will almost certainly make it worse. But I'm not muslim and have no family in Palestine.

Right I agree the sentiment is terrible but he didn't say he hopes it happens. And I'm with you, it's easy for me to say they're not being rational because I'm not the one with personal attachments to the people and the region. Their decision is understandable, but that's not the same thing as being reasonable. I won't insult this important topic by making a bad analogy, but everyone can come up with plenty of examples of something being understandable but not reasonable.

Edited October 22 by Huckleberry

Chewbacca · October 22

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Off topic but a political issue.

1974 - minimum wage was raised to $2

1991 - it hit $4.25. More than doubling it in 17 years.

We’re now 33 years later and it’s $7.25. At this rate, it may double the 1991 rate by the 50 year mark. Maybe.

i checked a cost of living calculator, and the 1991 $4.25 would be $9.50 now.

The fact that the national minimum wage has not been increased since 1991 is criminal.

SydneyCarton · October 22

52 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I tend to agree, but reasonable minds differ. It’s voting against the devil you know and it’s perfectly logical even if the assumptions on which it is based ultimately prove flawed.

Trump is also the devil they know. They lived with him for 4 years as he banned mulsim entry into their country and stoked race violence in other races. They resoundingly voted against him in 2020, becuase they saw the devil they knew fucking sucked. And they've had a year of being able to listen to the things coming out of his own mouth that he'll do to escalate the situation in Gaza and make things harder on Muslims in the US. So lets not pretend it's some unknowable risk. It's a knowable risk, and that risk also can't stop running his mouth about all the shit he will do when elected. Your illustration here is borderline bad faith.

33 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

They’re not voting out or petulance, unless you think desperation to try anything to end the massacre of their friends and family is “petulant.” This isn’t a fucking tantrum. It’s a direct response to policy choices by the administration that resulted in the displacement and death of thousands of their fellow Muslims.

Jesus fucking Christ. How hard is it to understand that genocide is a serious issue and it’s not childish to take a moral stand against it (even if that requires making risky trade offs)?

I’ve had these conversations with Muslim friends who are far from petulant or unreasonable. Their decision to withhold support from Kamala or even vote Trump are measured and account for the risks and tradeoffs. Which is a lot more than I can say for the knee jerk reaction of the head-in-sand crew on this thread.

Again, characterizing this as a risky trade-off is absurd at best, intentionally decieving at worst. As Fooster's said, please, outline all the various trade-offs, pros and cons, etc. If they're not acting emotionally, or petulantly, then how do you square the measured and thoughtful response to voting for a man who says "He will increase aid to Israel and he will deport all the mulsims/immigrants/browns from this country, and intern them in the process?

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