2024 Presidential Election Thread - Let's keep the party going.

[David Dennison 17754]

Just now, DixonHur said:

This is the problem with trying to have an honest political debate on this board.

I was pointing out policies on the left I disagree with.  To act like the left isn't the party that has proposed reparations is either willful ignorance or disingenuousness.  Newsome literally appointed the reparations task force in California.

Will it pass?  Probably not, but don't act like it's not a policy being discussed on the left.

When did the Democratic Party propose reparations?

[DixonHur 10837]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

When did the Democratic Party propose reparations?

Captain Semantics has joined the chat

So do you think reparations are a good, or bad idea?  Why?

Either contribute an opinion or fuck off.

Edited February 9 by DixonHur

[David Dennison 17754]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Captain Semantics has joined the chat

So do you think reparations are a good, or bad idea?  Why?

Either contribute an opinion or fuck off.

I support reparations because African Americans continue to suffer the social, economic, and political effects of racism and discrimination wrought by slavery, a system sanctioned by the United States and various state governments.

[StassneyHorn 6429]

Worried about reparations is one way to live life scared.
Or thinking multiculturalism is bad.
Or someone with external balls running a track event when others have internal balls is an issue to care about.

Same as fascism.

Edited February 9 by StassneyHorn

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

30 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

You should take him off ignore. Maybe seeing when you two are posting the same exact shit would be a wake up call for you. But I guess living in ignorance  is easier than thinking?  
 

but yes, parroting far right talking points isn’t in any way being a right wing pawn. 

the fact that you think I'm parroting far right talking points when the only facts I quoted were decidedly not from a far right publication is something.  i'm a far right pawn?  and you think the blue maga stuff is just uncalled for, eh?

ok.

 

[DixonHur 10837]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I support reparations because African Americans continue to suffer the social, economic, and political effects of racism and discrimination wrought by slavery, a system sanctioned by the United States and various state governments.

Ok, good start.  

So who pays them?  The Africans who sold them into slavery in the first place?  The European countries that shipped them across the middle passage?  The decedents of the southern plantation owners?  The US Government?

And why stop at African Americans.  What about Native Americans?  

Slavery has existed globally since the dawn of time and their decedents were equally, if not more disenfranchised for generations too.  However, reparations have never been paid.  Why now?  What makes the decedents of African slaves different?  Recency?  Not trying to be dismissive...slavery is terrible, but it's certainly not a unique condition to African Americans.

[DixonHur 10837]

8 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Worried about reparations is one way to live life scared.
Or thinking multiculturalism is bad.
Or someone with external balls running a track event when others have internal balls is an issue to care about.

Same as fascism.

So anyone with a different view than yours is living scared?  Just trying to wrap my head around your thought process.  

[hobbes2702 12516]

12 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Ok, good start.  

So who pays them?  The Africans who sold them into slavery in the first place?  The European countries that shipped them across the middle passage?  The decedents of the southern plantation owners?  The US Government?

And why stop at African Americans.  What about Native Americans?  

Slavery has existed globally since the dawn of time and their decedents were equally, if not more disenfranchised for generations too.  However, reparations have never been paid.  Why now?  What makes the decedents of African slaves different?  Recency?  Not trying to be dismissive...slavery is terrible, but it's certainly not a unique condition to African Americans.

Why do you care so much? Do reparations harm you in some way?

[hobbes2702 12516]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I think the trans and BLM issues broke as many people as Covid did. 
 

 

[Dahobbs 17180]

16 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So anyone with a different view than yours is living scared?  Just trying to wrap my head around your thought process.  

Not any different view. But certainly anyone spending time worrying about reparations, caravans of illegal immigrants, or trans athletes competing in sports is definitely living scared. I'm sorry if that hits close to home for you.

At any rate, as far as tax policy goes, reparations in the form of a refundable tax credit would be one of the most economically efficient tax breaks we could do. 

[Brisketexan 103515]

Hell, I'd kill for someone like Obama or Clinton. But the left went batshit crazy and there is none of these types around I guess.

Dude. We elected Obama, a black man, and it broke half the country. It may end up destroying us….because half the country couldn’t handle it.

Find a time machine and go back to 2014 and tell yourself that in one decade your party will be anti Bud Light, NFL, most country music, and the general concept of democracy but very pro Russia, Kanye, Tesla, and book burning… all because Donald Trump said so. Let me know what past you says about those developments.

So much this. GTFO with any “they’ve both gone batshit” crap.

Yup. Check out the poster accusing [mention=291]wildcat09[/mention] of being a blue MAGA as they agree in lockstep with one of the most vocal, far right, racist posters on this website. Look at that horseshoe theory go! 

And so it goes.

Everything boils down to race for you.  You're like a broken record. 
But yes, I should have included CRT.  
Slavery and racism have existed in almost every culture for at least 10,000 years and will likely continue to happen for at least another 10,000 years.  
News flash:  As a species, humans prefer to be around people who are like them.  Get over it.

I mean….you could have just posted “get fucked, and GET OUT, darkies!” and it would have been more to the point. Jesus.
We have to reckon with the fact that a huge chunk of our population, our fellow Americans, were enslaved, then subjected to Jim Crow, for 90% of our history, so, no, shit ain’t fixed yet. If you think a healthy society leaves that many members of it utterly fucked, then we’re all fucked.

You’re so much better than us. Thank you for gracing us with your presence 

You may spend too much online if you think reparations are one of the core platform of the Democratic party. 
And you think the Democratic Party is about force transitioning of kids? That’s some Fox News/Facebook bullshit. 

That’s all you’re going to hear. All Dem party meetings are 12 hour sessions about how to force every American child to have their genitalia sliced. They don’t talk about anything else. Wait, they also talk about how every person who crossed the Rio Grande yesterday will be registered to vote tomorrow, so we can finally get this “great replacement” done. I almost forgot about that.

[David Dennison 17754]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Ok, good start.  

So who pays them?  The Africans who sold them into slavery in the first place?  The European countries that shipped them across the middle passage?  The decedents of the southern plantation owners?  The US Government?

And why stop at African Americans.  What about Native Americans?  

Slavery has existed globally since the dawn of time and their decedents were equally, if not more disenfranchised for generations too.  However, reparations have never been paid.  Why now?  What makes the decedents of African slaves different?  Recency?  Not trying to be dismissive...slavery is terrible, but it's certainly not a unique condition to African Americans.

I would look to the United States government as it sanctioned slavery as an institution on a federal level prior to and during the Civil War.

I honestly have no idea what form reparations would take. That's not for me to decide. There are many options, cash payouts being one of them.

Native Americans want to make the case for reparations, they absolutely should. I would support it.

I don't think the existence of slavery throughout history or in other societies matters one bit when it comes to determining whether African Americans deserve reparations for slavery that existed in the United States.

[hobbes2702 12516]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Not any different view. But certainly anyone spending time worrying about reparations, caravans of illegal immigrants, or trans athletes competing in sports is definitely living scared. I'm sorry if that hits close to home for you.

At any rate, as far as tax policy goes, reparations in the form of a refundable tax credit would be one of the most economically efficient tax breaks we could do. 

What a waste of time. Imagine giving a fuck about all that stupid shit.

Edited February 9 by hobbes2702

[Js1 82949]

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

What a waste of time. Imagine giving a fuck about all that stupid shit.

Kind of goes back “just stop worrying about what everyone else may or may not be doing somewhere in the country” 

Edited February 9 by Js1

[hobbes2702 12516]

Just now, Js1 said:

Kind of goes back “just stop worrying about what everyone else may or may not be doing and just worry about yourself” 

I don’t want to say only worry about yourself but I really don’t understand why I would be upset about other people getting help? 

[Js1 82949]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

I don’t want to say only worry about yourself but I really don’t understand why I would be upset about other people getting help? 

I took that last part out, but it’s more, why do we let what someone else is doing bother us so much when it doesn’t affect us?

[David Dennison 17754]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

I don’t want to say only worry about yourself but I really don’t understand why I would be upset about other people getting help? 

This country has a long and sad history of providing the most help to people who need it the least.

[DixonHur 10837]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This country has a long and sad history of providing the most help to people who need it the least.

Exactly.  This is why reparations are a bad idea.  

We need to address the underlying issues.  Reparations will fix nothing.

[wildcat09 28486]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Exactly.  This is why reparations are a bad idea.  

We need to address the underlying issues.  Reparations will fix nothing.

…it’s really your contention that descendants of slaves need help less than anyone else in America? You really just typed that out and hit “submit reply”?

[hobbes2702 12516]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Exactly.  This is why reparations are a bad idea.  

We need to address the underlying issues.  Reparations will fix nothing.

How does this affect(effect?) you?

[David Dennison 17754]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Exactly.  This is why reparations are a bad idea.  

We need to address the underlying issues.  Reparations will fix nothing.

[DixonHur 10837]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

mean….you could have just posted “get fucked, and GET OUT, darkies!” and it would have been more to the point. Jesus.
We have to reckon with the fact that a huge chunk of our population, our fellow Americans, were enslaved, then subjected to Jim Crow, for 90% of our history, so, no, shit ain’t fixed yet. If you think a healthy society leaves that many members of it utterly fucked, then we’re all fucked.

Again, how does reparations fix the root cause?  

And go fuck yourself with the go away darkies shit.  "Oh you disagree with me so you must be a racist".  I usually agree with your posts, so I expected better from you.  

[Biff Tannen 45013]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's like pitching a screaming fit and tossing the plate containing your hamburger, which you DISTINCTLY requested with pickles, onions, dijon mustard, mayo, and a slice of American, because it didn't have the cheese you wanted and the mustard was yellow not dijon, and it had fucking tomatoes, which you don't like....knowing that the only other food item left on the table is a sandwich made of moldy bread and runny turds.  Jesus.  Eat the fucking burger.  Tell the cook that you aren't happy with the mustard, cheese, and tomato situation, and you expect the next burger to be better.  But for fuck's sake, eat the fucking burger, not the shit sandwich.

[DixonHur 10837]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Answer the question.  How does a one time payment change the underlying problem of systematic racism.

Edited February 9 by DixonHur
Spelling

[David Dennison 17754]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Again, how does reparations fix the root cause?  

And go fuck yourself with the go away darkies shit.  "Oh you disagree with me so you must be a racist".  I usually agree with your posts, so I expected better from you.  

Justice isn't about fixing anything. 

[DixonHur 10837]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

How does this affect(effect?) you?

Seriously?  It either adds to the federal deficit or we pay higher taxes.  

So the answer is that it impacts me financially.

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Justice isn't about fixing anything. 

So do we just repeat the process in 50 years?

[David Dennison 17754]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Answer the question.  How does a one time payment change the underlying problem of systematic racism.

Who says it has to be a one time payment? Reparations can come in the form of addressing the social, economic, and political inequities caused by systemic racism. The first step is acknowledging systemic racism exists. We still have a long way to go.

[DixonHur 10837]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

…it’s really your contention that descendants of slaves need help less than anyone else in America? You really just typed that out and hit “submit reply”?

How in the world did you get to that conclusion from that post?

We need to fix the underlying issues...IE systematic racism.  Not just write a check.

[Dahobbs 17180]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Seriously?  It either adds to the federal deficit or we pay higher taxes.  

So the answer is that it impacts me financially.

It doesn't have to do either of those things. 

[Biff Tannen 45013]

3 hours ago, Js1 said:

Isn’t that always the thing that enlightened centrists tell us? The left went batshit. Silence about the right going absolute batshit. It’s a hallmark of a troll

My centrist friend is more of the "both sides" variety.  In that, yes, the right went batshit, but the batshit left is as bad.  Or because of the batshit left, he has to still give credence to the batshit right because it makes him feel like he's the sane one in the middle.  I want to clunk his head against a wall like Moe.

[DixonHur 10837]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Who says it has to be a one time payment? Reparations can come in the form of addressing the social, economic, and political inequities caused by systemic racism. The first step is acknowledging systemic racism exists. We still have a long way to go.

Systematic racism exists.  Period.

But reparations, as they have been proposed so far, are about monetary compensation.  You know this 

[DixonHur 10837]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

It doesn't have to do either of those things. 

I'm all ears.  I haven't seen any proposals to the contrary.  But would certainly be open to non direct financial compensation as a means to right the wrongs of the past.

When I talk about reparations I'm only talking about what has been proposed thus far 

[David Dennison 17754]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

How in the world did you get to that conclusion from that post?

We need to fix the underlying issues...IE systematic racism.  Not just write a check.

Again, writing a check is just one option. Debt forgiveness is another. Clemency yet another.

There are all sorts of options for a nation willing to address one of the most sordid chapters of its history. We're certainly able.

[hobbes2702 12516]

12 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Seriously?  It either adds to the federal deficit or we pay higher taxes.  

So the answer is that it impacts me financially.

So do we just repeat the process in 50 years?

What? 

[David Dennison 17754]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Systematic racism exists.  Period.

But reparations, as they have been proposed so far, are about monetary compensation.  You know this 

Fine. What's wrong with monetary compensation? How do you make up for decades-long discriminatory housing subsidies that helped create the wealth disparity in this country? How do you make up for redlining? How do you make up for block busting?

[DixonHur 10837]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Again, writing a check is just one option. Debt forgiveness is another. Clemency yet another.

There are all sorts of options for a nation willing to address one of the most sordid chapters of its history. We're certainly able.

Agreed.  But none of the other options have been proposed to my knowledge.

If they have great.  But they still don't address the root cause.  That will take stronger anti-discrimination laws, and time frankly.  I think we're about 2-3 generations from reaching the target assuming we can keep the current pace.

[DixonHur 10837]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Fine. What's wrong with monetary compensation? How do you make up for decades-long discriminatory housing subsidies that helped create the wealth disparity in this country? How do you make up for redlining? How do you make up for block busting?

Your not going to like my answer, but you don't.

Instead, I think you look at it as a long-term project, and try to create opportunities for the future generations.

[Brisketexan 103515]

Again, how does reparations fix the root cause?  
And go fuck yourself with the go away darkies shit.  "Oh you disagree with me so you must be a racist".  I usually agree with your posts, so I expected better from you.  

Dude. You weren’t speaking to the limited topic of reparations when you made this broad-ass statement:

“Slavery and racism have existed in almost every culture for at least 10,000 years and will likely continue to happen for at least another 10,000 years.  News flash:  As a species, humans prefer to be around people who are like them.  Get over it.”

Humans prefer to be around people who are like them. Get over it.

If you’re a minority living in this fucking country, which is and has been dominated by white people since its founding, how the fuck would YOU take that?
Hey beaners, we white folks don’t want to be around you. Get over it.
Hey black people? Same thing. Get over it.

It’s fucking easy as shit for people who never had a goddamned thing to “get over” to tell the very people they spent literally centuries shitting on…reflected in ongoing systemic advantages and disadvantages…to “get over it.” Jesus fucking Christ.
Why is this so fucking hard and terrifying for white people? Do you think that if you are not 100% in control of 100% of the levers of power, minorities might treat white people 10% as badly as they were treated?

[David Dennison 17754]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Your not going to like my answer, but you don't.

Instead, I think you look at it as a long-term project, and try to create opportunities for the future generations.

But what's wrong the monetary compensation?

[David Dennison 17754]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But what's wrong the monetary compensation?

Nice English, dummy.

[DixonHur 10837]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude. You weren’t speaking to the limited topic of reparations when you made this broad-ass statement:

“Slavery and racism have existed in almost every culture for at least 10,000 years and will likely continue to happen for at least another 10,000 years.  News flash:  As a species, humans prefer to be around people who are like them.  Get over it.”

Humans prefer to be around people who are like them. Get over it.

If you’re a minority living in this fucking country, which is and has been dominated by white people since its founding, how the fuck would YOU take that?
Hey beaners, we white folks don’t want to be around you. Get over it.
Hey black people? Same thing. Get over it.

It’s fucking easy as shit for people who never had a goddamned thing to “get over” to tell the very people they spent literally centuries shitting on…reflected in ongoing systemic advantages and disadvantages…to “get over it.” Jesus fucking Christ.
Why is this so fucking hard and terrifying for white people? Do you think that if you are not 100% in control of 100% of the levers of power, minorities might treat white people 10% as badly as they were treated?

First, you know the US isn't the only country on earth, right?  If I lived in Saudi Arabia, Africa , China, etc., you don't think I'd face discrimination as a white person, or simply a Westerner?  

Peru was one of the most racist countries I've live in.  It wasn't white vs black, but rather native vs Spanish vs Asian vs black.

The point I was making in that post had nothing to do with reparations.  That was about CRT.  

And the point is racism and xenophobia exist in every cultural.  In the US, it's easier to for us to point a finger at because it usually is easily visibly apparent.  IE brown, black, white etc.

But other places an American would be hard pressed to see the difference.  Look no further than the ethnic cleansing in Rawanda, or Czechs vs Germans in WWI and II.

Hell even in the US a generation ago my mom was ostrisized from her German family for marrying an Italian...my dad.

 

[BamaATL 16009]

In other news, someone by the name of Ryan Binkley currently holds second place in the Nevada Republican Caucuses, he holds a commanding 36 votes.  If the math holds, he will fall about 40k short (about 40,500 are projected to vote).  

Apparently he has spent approximately $8 million dollars during this cycle, his results follow:

1.  Iowa - 774

2.  New Hampshire - 315

3.  Nevada - appears to be well under 500.  

He previously had his own consulting company, but is now the pastor of a church in Richardson Texas.  I'm sure the congregation has been thrilled to fund this campaign ordained by God.  He's on DeSantis level type of results, about $5400 spent per vote.  Yolo motherfuckers!

[StassneyHorn 6429]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

So anyone with a different view than yours is living scared?  Just trying to wrap my head around your thought process.  

No, and you know that. Being consumed about worthless shit that has an infantile, minute chance of ever affecting your daily life is living scared. 

[Brisketexan 103515]

First, you know the US isn't the only country on earth, right?  If I lived in Saudi Arabia, Africa , China, etc., you don't think I'd face discrimination as a white person, or simply a Westerner?  
Peru was one of the most racist countries I've live in.  It wasn't white vs black, but rather native vs Spanish vs Asian vs black.
The point I was making in that post had nothing to do with reparations.  That was about CRT.  
And the point is racism and xenophobia exist in every cultural.  In the US, it's easier to for us to point a finger at because it usually is easily visibly apparent.  IE brown, black, white etc.
But other places an American would be hard pressed to see the difference.  Look no further than the ethnic cleansing in Rawanda, or Czechs vs Germans in WWI and II.
Hell even in the US a generation ago my mom was ostrisized from her German family for marrying an Italian...my dad.
 

“Other people also suck” isn’t the great defense you seem to think it is. Neither is “America - we’re just as shitty as Saudi Arabia.”
If we’re just going to give up and decide that different races treating each other like shit is how it’s gonna be, let’s quit pussyfooting around and get this shit over with. Let’s have that race war the Manson Family was itching for. AMERICA FIRST!

[DixonHur 10837]

Just now, StassneyHorn said:

No, and you know that. Being consumed about worthless shit that has an infantile, minute chance of ever affecting your daily life is living scared. 

I'm not consumed.  I was be basically asked what aspects of the left I felt were too far from center.  These were them.  I don't spend my life worrying about them, I just don't agree with them.

I'm content.    I've had a great life, and I'm conscious that I have it better than 90% of the planet.  I have nothing to complain about, but this is Surly so I'll be damned if I don't try.

[StassneyHorn 6429]

Every country had slaves, why should America be an exception and a shining example for the rest of the world?

Oh god this shit is going to lead to posts about equity. SOUND THE ALARM! ABORT! DONT DO IT!
 

 

[DixonHur 10837]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

“Other people also suck” isn’t the great defense you seem to think it is. Neither is “America - we’re just as shitty as Saudi Arabia.”
If we’re just going to give up and decide that different races treating each other like shit is how it’s gonna be, let’s quit pussyfooting around and get this shit over with. Let’s have that race war the Manson Family was itching for. AMERICA FIRST!

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but I've read enough history to not get my hopes up that human nature will change.

There is nothing new in the world.  Since humans first gained "consciousness", we've envisioned a better world, but we're basically at the same spot we started in...the schismogenesis is strong with our kind.

I suppose I've just reached the acceptance stage of grief.

[Biff Tannen 45013]

26 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

In other news, someone by the name of Ryan Binkley currently holds second place in the Nevada Republican Caucuses, he holds a commanding 36 votes.  If the math holds, he will fall about 40k short (about 40,500 are projected to vote).  

Apparently he has spent approximately $8 million dollars during this cycle, his results follow:

1.  Iowa - 774

2.  New Hampshire - 315

3.  Nevada - appears to be well under 500.  

He previously had his own consulting company, but is now the pastor of a church in Richardson Texas.  I'm sure the congregation has been thrilled to fund this campaign ordained by God.  He's on DeSantis level type of results, about $5400 spent per vote.  Yolo motherfuckers!

Seems like $1 to 8 million minorities could be a better way to spend that money. But I just jumped into this shit show of a thread, so I know nothing. 

[ChiTownDoc 20841]

2 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

I will repeat it.  We have an election coming up that may very well be for the soul and survival of this nation.  We have a poster who had already said he is voting for the guy I think most here would agree is the candidate who isn't going to destroy this country.  And some of you are arguing with him over ideology, policy whatever.

I guarantee you this is what Aaron Sorkin meant when he had Jeff Daniels utter, "If liberals are so fucking smart how come they lose so goddamn always."  It's THIS right here.  It's more important to be right than to fucking win.   I get it..... more intellectual people like to play chess, they want to turn over angles, probe weakness, engage in combat of the mind, BUT sometimes you gotta play checkers and jump a motherfucker.  

If we were on SEC Rant and Dixonhur said, "I'm voting for Trump even though I'm more of a centrist and don't support his direction on all the issues" the gumps over there would say "damn straight, Trump's the man" and that's it.   

TAKE THE WIN

Nails it on so many levels.  Dems are god damn horrible at politics.  And that’s a big problem when the only other party out there is a modern day nazi regime.  FML

[DixonHur 10837]

7 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

Every country had slaves, why should America be an exception and a shining example for the rest of the world?

Oh god this shit is going to lead to posts about equity. SOUND THE ALARM! ABORT! DONT DO IT!
 

 

Too much of a simplification of the concept.

The point isn't that we should do nothing.  The point is what to do.  

I think we need to leave the past alone and focus on putting things in place to ensure a more equitable future in general, not necessarily based on  trying to rectify slavery, but just in general terms.

For example, why do billionaires exist?  Perhaps we need to understand what in our culture has lead to the acceptance of extreme gaps in wealth.