Alabama to perform 1st nitrogen gas execution

TwiceHorn · January 26

On 1/25/2024 at 10:28 PM, InkaUtexas said:

I think Smith should have been given life without parole, which is what 11 of the Jurors wanted. I guess the judge overruled them.

That's not possible. Under the current constitutional death-penalty regime, the jury must sit for a "penalty phase" the sole issue being death or an alternative sentence, usually LWOP. The penalty phase must consider evidence of mitigation as well as aggravation and it's these hearings where capital punishment lawyers earn their stripes (or fail their clients), most often.

~~That jury must be unanimous, as must all criminal juries.\~~

Late edit. Mein Gott I was wrong about this. While all of the above is true and it seems that a judicial override of the jury verdict in the punishment phase is about as contrary to the above as one can imagine, it seems judicial overrides, most especially Alabama's, were not considered and ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS. Cert denied something like four times.

Edited January 27 by TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn · January 26

On the "cosmic question" thing: something that has influenced me over time on this is a joke told by Jack Ratliff, Texas Civil Procedure professor at UT.

The joke was a voir dire joke in which a potential juror was asked: could you impose the death penalty if you thought the evidence and law provided for it? Country fella raises his hand and asks "They do that down in Huntsville right"? Yessir, they do. "Well, I suppose if they did it in the evening or on a weekend I could."

So that made me think at the time, "Jesus, I would hate to be on a death-penalty jury." And my thoughts on it stopped there pretty much.

Over time, though, that thought has expanded into not only should I not have to be on a death-penalty jury, no one should have to be on a death-penalty jury and our law and government should not even provide for such a thing.

52-80 · January 26

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think these notions of diversity maybe drive a little bit of it because that is what seems to underlie the documented American distrust of our fellow citizens that is conspicuously lacking in Scandinavian and more homogeneous societies.

We seem to be unusually willing to "otherize" people in this country and then demonize them.

Regardless, something is wrong with our culture/society that leads to criminality and our counter-productive response to it. Part of it is the War on Drugs, but that prompts the question why Americans have such a voracious appetite for drugs. And that probably relates to our fractured social safety net, which may ouroboros into that otherizing.

And, ultimately, I think the notion of the "american dream" when so many are effectively cut out of it has become increasingly corrosive to our society.

Is the demonizing of others because the others are committing crimes? Or are the others commiting crimes because they are demonized?

You suggest drugs as the genesis/catalyst (if we separate drugs from other criminal acts), but then again, the consumption of drugs are caused by…the otherizers?

Lastly, what is your definition of the american dream and why do you think many are cut out of it?

Biff Tannen · January 26

This should go well.

52-80 · January 26

8 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

100000% agree with this. White collar crime is often calculated and pre-meditated over months and years. These people know what they are doing to others and it’s so much more evil to me than a crime of passion.

Sure, intent and premeditation absolutely matters. Why are you suggesting they’re not already taken into account during sentencing?

AbeFroman · January 26

I am against killing human beings, against it. ..put that on my bragging montage

but But I have never understood why we don’t just walk up and shoot them in the back of the head with a Colt 45 revolver.

TwiceHorn · January 26

9 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

100000% agree with this. White collar crime is often calculated and pre-meditated over months and years. These people know what they are doing to others and it’s so much more evil to me than a crime of passion.

Yeah, I agree with this. The sort of generic explanation for light sentences for white collar crime is that judges (who sentence in federal court, where most are prosecuted) and prosecutors for that matter, see another educated professional who "made a mistake" or had an "ethical lapse" and to whom any incarceration or punishment may have a greater impact than a common street criminal and thus will be unlikely to recidivate.

I think that's absolutely the wrong approach. To whom much is given, much should be expected.

Bevo · January 26

2 minutes ago, AbeFroman said:

I am against killing human beings, against it. ..put that on my bragging montage

but But I have never understood why we don’t just walk up and shoot them in the back of the head with a Colt 45 revolver.

TwiceHorn · January 26

23 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Is the demonizing of others because the others are committing crimes? Or are the others commiting crimes because they are demonized?

You suggest drugs as the genesis/catalyst (if we separate drugs from other criminal acts), but then again, the consumption of drugs are caused by…the otherizers?

Lastly, what is your definition of the american dream and why do you think many are cut out of it?

I'm saying it is easier for us as a society to dehumanize criminals and thus treat them extra-harshly. Especially when those criminals come from an "other" group, as they so often do.

It's not my conception of the American dream that matters. It's people who think they should be advancing when they are not, whether they actually should be or not (as in, are they doing the right things to advance). I think that leads to an "I'm gonna get mine" attitude and extra frustration when they don't "get theirs" and see others "getting theirs" that in their perception are less-deserving. Some of this is just flat human nature, not peculiar to the US, but we have more persistent notions of "you can be anything you want in America."

ETA: addressing your second question last. Drugs drive a lot of crime, in the form of addiction and in the form of the shadowy commerce that delivers them to our consumers. Americans have a seemingly endless appetite for drugs. For addicts, that is probably mostly a genetic predisposition. For less compulsive users, it would seem to be a need to escape their circumstances. Drugs are rampant in poverty-stricken areas. Poverty-stricken people are more likely to become drug dealers and casualties of drug commerce.

Drugs, crime, and poverty are closely associated. Minorities, others, are also closely associated with the three. I suspect that notions of the American dream, get rich or die tryin, motivates those in poverty-stricken circumstances to enter the commercial world easily open to them: drugs.

The margin of error for poverty-stricken others in escaping their circumstances is close to zero. Far less than, say, upper middle class whiteys like myself. So, for a variety of reasons, others constitute a disproportionate percentage of our criminal population. So, not only do they bear the stigma of being criminals, they bear the stigma of being other. Thus, it is easier to demonize, dehumanize and over-sentence those criminal others.

The War on Drugs has always had racial undertones if not straight-up racist motivations e.g. Nixon, pot, and Negros; later cocaine and dirty brown Colombians; crack and Negros; currently everything and dirty brown Messkins. So, super-easy for pandering pols to whip up fear of drugs and their "other: purveyors and come up with ultra-punitive measures instead of a more rational and compassionate attempt to address the demand.

Our social dysfunction drives crime, which drives more social dysfunction.

Edited January 27 by TwiceHorn

bolverk · January 26

6 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

First reports from witnesses. Not going to post. It is not an easy read.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10195272/alabama-supreme-court-nitrogen-gas-execution-method/

Two things:

How could it be such a violent execution when nitrogen is the most abundant gas in our atmosphere? /s
The son of the murder-for-hire pastor and his murdered momma certainly sounds like he's taken Christ's word to heart. /s

cabowabo · January 26

I love all the comments that life in prison is actually a harsher penalty than death. If that's the case then why do all these fuck wads do all these appeals. And I love this murderer lecturing the rest of us about humanity taking a step backwards. Fuck this dead mother fucker.

Deej · January 26

15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I just don’t want multiple-time felons in my town. For sure not violent felons. Not even property crime felons. The stats on recidivism are off the charts.

You'd never make it as the Travis County DA with that attitude, mister.

956 Worldwide · January 26

Just now, Deej said:

You'd never make it as the Travis County DA with that attitude, mister.

I may have too much faith but I think it would be easier to get longer sentences if prisons were humane and we explained it as “we aren’t punishing them we are just keeping them separate from potential victims.”

I get as ragey as anyone else when multiple time convicted felons kill people and hurt people. So take away the talking point of prison being cruel.

GopherRock · January 26

38 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

If that's the case then why do all these fuck wads do all these appeals.

52-80 · January 26

40 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm saying it is easier for us as a society to dehumanize criminals and thus treat them extra-harshly. Especially when those criminals come from an "other" group, as they so often do.

Doesn't seem unnatural, unethical, or unfair to consider a person who commits heinous crimes -- such as, oh, murder -- in lower regard than the rest of society. If the argument is that it's *too* harsh, we're gonna need to first establish the baseline of what is harsh enough.

46 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, I agree with this. The sort of generic explanation for light sentences for white collar crime is that judges (who sentence in federal court, where most are prosecuted) and prosecutors for that matter, see another educated professional who "made a mistake" or had an "ethical lapse" and to whom any incarceration or punishment may have a greater impact than a common street criminal and thus will be unlikely to recidivate.

I think that's absolutely the wrong approach. To whom much is given, much should be expected.

A pretty important distinction is that white collar crime don't cause immediate physical harm, and damages are recoverable. Same can't be said for for a guy who beats his neighbor half to death. Whom would you rather live next to?

(FWIW, I find white collar / financial fraud equally detestable. Is there an example where we would disagree on the lightness of sentencing?)

18 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

I love all the comments that life in prison is actually a harsher penalty than death. If that's the case then why do all these fuck wads do all these appeals. And I love this murderer lecturing the rest of us about humanity taking a step backwards. Fuck this dead mother fucker.

What happened with the Alabama guy was inhumane. He should have been treated with dignity -- like his victim, who was beaten with a fire poker before being stabbed to death.

Underdog · January 26

Any word on what his last meal was?

jkates · January 26

2 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Any word on what his last meal was?

T-bone steak, hash browns, eggs and A1 Sauce from Waffle House

4th and 5 · January 26

Article says he didn’t finish his meal.

I’m guessing no one offered him a to-go box.

Biff Tannen · January 26

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

What happened with the Alabama guy was inhumane. He should have been treated with dignity -- like his victim, who was beaten with a fire poker before being stabbed to death.

IMO, at this point in human society we should be able to rise above a base instinct of revenge and glee at inflicting pain upon someone because they inflicted pain upon someone else. I get the idea of Hammurabi's Code. I view it as uncivilized and from a more brutal epoch than we live in now. Perhaps you disagree.

Sandman · January 26

38 minutes ago, 4th and 5 said:

Article says he didn’t finish his meal.

I’m guessing no one offered him a to-go box.

Oh, they did. It was large and made of pine.

Pato del Muerto · January 26

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

What happened with the Alabama guy was inhumane. He should have been treated with dignity -- like his victim, who was beaten with a fire poker before being stabbed to death.

Do you want to be better than a guy that does that type of thing, or no better than him? Because “do to him like he did to them” puts forward that you are comfortable with that level of violence and cruelty, for people you deem deserving of it.

Helobious · January 26

1 hour ago, Underdog said:

Any word on what his last meal was?

Texas doesn’t do last meal requests anymore. Not sure if Alabama does.

RPM · January 26

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's not possible.

That is exactly what happened. Alabama was the last state to stop judicial override in 2017.

Deej · January 26

20 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Texas doesn’t do last meal requests anymore. Not sure if Alabama does.

They should be forced to eat Jade's chili for their last meal. I don't care how inhumane it is.

Samson's Wig · January 26

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

i don't believe you can say a "reform-based" approach has ever been seriously attempted in the US, assuming you mean "rehabilitation" based.

The only things we've really done, on a limited scale, are "diversion courts," such as drug, mental-health, and veteran's courts and they are reasonably successful. And those are maybe 20-25 years old at the outside.

American criminal law was mostly static in terms of sentencing for the first about 200 years, the major development being movement from common-law to statutory crimes. At some point, fear developed and politicians moved to exploit that fear with ever-longer sentences, and, of course, the War on Drugs.

We swerved heavily into a rehabilitation-based approach in the 1950s and '60s (particularly in states like California, but aspects were nationwide) and largely abandoned it by the 70s and deemed it a failed experiment. I agree with the sentiment that we didn't really give it a serious attempt.

jimmyjazz · January 26

33 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Do you want to be better than a guy that does that type of thing, or no better than him? Because “do to him like he did to them” puts forward that you are comfortable with that level of violence and cruelty, for people you deem deserving of it.

Why are you even asking the question?

Lhorn · January 26

50 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Texas doesn’t do last meal requests anymore. Not sure if Alabama does.

Maybe it wasn’t his request but he definitely had a “last meal.”

52-80 · January 26

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as always, they're probably not moving into your upper-middle-class neighborhood, so most (not all) crime is going to be a fairly remote proposition for most of us here.

I agree most of us are insulated from the crime, as the lower class will be most affected. So the next question is: what do you suppose those people think about the death penalty, and police presence?

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Do you want to be better than a guy that does that type of thing, or no better than him? Because “do to him like he did to them” puts forward that you are comfortable with that level of violence and cruelty, for people you deem deserving of it.

Im comfortably perched far away on my middle class high horse. Lets first ask the immediate parties involved how they feel:

Son #1: “Some of these people out there say, ‘Well, he doesn’t need to suffer like that,’” Well, he didn’t ask Mama how to suffer. They just did it. They stabbed her multiple times.”

Son #2: “It doesn’t matter to me how he goes out, so long as he goes,” he said, noting that Mr. Smith had been in prison “twice as long as I knew my mom.”

So back to how I think about it: in the context of the 25,000 homicides that occur in america every year, to question (rhetorically or not) whether I am “no better than that”, or to be deeply concerned about the manner with which 25 people are punished….is missing the forest for the twig.

jimmyjazz · January 26

25 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

So back to how I think about it: in the context of the 25,000 homicides that occur in america every year, to question (rhetorically or not) whether I am “no better than that”, or to be deeply concerned about the manner with which 25 people are punished….is missing the forest for the twig.

You know, it's entirely possible to care about . . . everybody.

Fudge Nuggets · January 26

41 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know, it's entirely possible to care about . . . everybody.

Think about who you are communicating with. That dipshit doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself.

'stache · January 26

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

I agree most of us are insulated from the crime, as the lower class will be most affected. So the next question is: what do you suppose those people think about the death penalty, and police presence?

Im comfortably perched far away on my middle class high horse. Lets first ask the immediate parties involved how they feel:

Son #1: “Some of these people out there say, ‘Well, he doesn’t need to suffer like that,’” Well, he didn’t ask Mama how to suffer. They just did it. They stabbed her multiple times.”

Son #2: “It doesn’t matter to me how he goes out, so long as he goes,” he said, noting that Mr. Smith had been in prison “twice as long as I knew my mom.”

So back to how I think about it: in the context of the 25,000 homicides that occur in america every year, to question (rhetorically or not) whether I am “no better than that”, or to be deeply concerned about the manner with which 25 people are punished….is missing the forest for the twig.

Thinks Republican Jesus would definitely say.

High Plains Drifter · January 26

I'm against the death penalty, for all the general reasons that I won't get into.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over this guy getting the death penalty.

52-80 · January 26

2 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know, it's entirely possible to care about . . . everybody.

Sure it is.

But there’s order and rank in the world. And of the 7 billion of these…everybody, the 25 souls on DR — all of whom are convicted murderers — slot on my Careometer somewhere between Yahya Sinwar and Fudge Nuggets.

jimmyjazz · January 26

I don't care how you rank them. Are you of the opinion that murdering anyone is acceptable? (I mean, besides Aggies.)

52-80 · January 26

4 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I don't care how you rank them. Are you of the opinion that murdering anyone is acceptable? (I mean, besides Aggies.)

I know you seek a binary answer with how you frame the question, because its easier.

My opinion is that (1) state-sponsored executions of convicted murderers is bad, superficially.

(2) Knowing that applies to 25 people annually, who have on an average sentencing period of 20 years with which to seek appeal/exxoneration/pardon….its dead last on my list of injustices, and im not going to feign outrage over it to win social capital.

jimmyjazz · January 26

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

and im not going to feign outrage over it to win social capital.

Well, that's a relief.

TwiceHorn · January 26

8 hours ago, cabowabo said:

I love all the comments that life in prison is actually a harsher penalty than death. If that's the case then why do all these fuck wads do all these appeals. And I love this murderer lecturing the rest of us about humanity taking a step backwards. Fuck this dead mother fucker.

Easy answer. The prospect of being put to death is more frightening than the prospect of life in prison. The reality may be much different.

Moreover, death penalty appeals are virtually mandatory and in some states actually mandatory. Capital defendants usually aren't the brightest bunch. so it's not like they're making a real difficult decision: the appeal will usually cost them nothing and a lot of people are urging them to do it.

Edited January 26 by TwiceHorn

52-80 · January 26

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

I'm against the death penalty, for all the general reasons that I won't get into.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over this guy getting the death penalty.

The previous 4 persons who were executed:

-guy with history of kidnapping, theft, domestic abuse, etc, carjacks 80 y/o woman, throws her in the trunk, then shoots her in the head

-guy asks a good samaritan for a ride, gets in the car, then stabs him in the neck

-convicted sex offender kidnaps 5 y/o girl, clubs her in head, strangles her with a bag, then dumps her burned and naked body

-guy conspires to break into someones house, fully prepped weapon, shoots him in the head and a total of 11 times

-guy previously convicted of manslaughter, does meth with 2 other dudes, then shoots both, including execution style where one was already wounded and pleading for his life

But you know whos the real bad person here? You - if you dont lose sleep over any of them either.

Sandman · January 27

F250 · January 27

6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

But you know whos the real bad person here? You - if you dont lose sleep over any of them either.

Poester · January 27

17 hours ago, 52-80 said:

The previous 4 persons who were executed:

-guy with history of kidnapping, theft, domestic abuse, etc, carjacks 80 y/o woman, throws her in the trunk, then shoots her in the head

-guy asks a good samaritan for a ride, gets in the car, then stabs him in the neck

-convicted sex offender kidnaps 5 y/o girl, clubs her in head, strangles her with a bag, then dumps her burned and naked body

-guy conspires to break into someones house, fully prepped weapon, shoots him in the head and a total of 11 times

-guy previously convicted of manslaughter, does meth with 2 other dudes, then shoots both, including execution style where one was already wounded and pleading for his life

But you know whos the real bad person here? You - if you dont lose sleep over any of them either.

The only issue I have with this is that they didn’t give the father of the 5 year old 20 minutes alone with the piece of shit before they executed him.

DigglerontheHoof · January 28

On 1/26/2024 at 3:08 PM, High Plains Drifter said:

I'm against the death penalty, for all the general reasons that I won't get into.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over this guy getting the death penalty.

I'm not against the DP b/c I don't want murderers to die. I'm against it b/c cops and DA's lie their motherfucking asses off and juries are made up of average Americans. And as we know, the average American is dumber than a box of rocks.

No one should be subjected to the ultimate penalty with those dynamics making the call.

hobbes2702 · January 28

On 1/26/2024 at 8:22 AM, cabowabo said:

I love all the comments that life in prison is actually a harsher penalty than death. If that's the case then why do all these fuck wads do all these appeals. And I love this murderer lecturing the rest of us about humanity taking a step backwards. Fuck this dead mother fucker.

I don’t think life in prison is a harsher penalty than death but I do think it’s insane that we allow the state to kill people based on the opinion of 12 regular ass morons.

Brisketexan · January 28

I don’t think life in prison is a harsher penalty than death but I do think it’s insane that we allow the state to kill people based on the opinion of 12 regular ass morons.

….but…and this is important…we also cannot let 12 of THAT EXACT SAME POOL OF MORONS award money damaged against someone, because that’s too important! Runaway juries! Tort reform!
Even better? The overlap between the group of people who support the death penalty and those who support taking damages awards out of juries’ hands is around 99%.

Bevo · January 28

I saw this thread bumped and I thought the guy came back to life.

RollLeft · January 28

B00M · January 28

Pretty impressive that this was somehow more inhumane than lethal injection

Pato del Muerto · January 28

Wonder how they settled on N2, vs say CO. Robust study I’m sure.

RDCanecutter · January 28

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wonder how they settled on N2, vs say CO. Robust study I’m sure.

Somebody's brother-in-law got paid a consulting fee.

Texzilla58 · January 28

Pretty impressive that this was somehow more inhumane than lethal injection

Would have been simpler and cheaper to just have a sideshow strongman simply strangle him.

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Alabama to perform 1st nitrogen gas execution

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