Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?

[JBJ 3,654]

A job that can be worked and managed remotely with little to no downside is one recession away from being a job in India.

[wildcat09 29,355]

 

[NoRagrets 1,125]

9 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A job that can be worked and managed remotely with little to no downside is one recession away from being a job in India.

True

[Snake Diggity 4,625]

10 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A job that can be worked and managed remotely with little to no downside is one recession away from being a job in India.

Wrong.

[Captainant 27,680]

7 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A job that can be worked and managed remotely with little to no downside is one recession away from being a job in India.

Eh yes and no. You're going to need operational support and people on the clock in the same time zone as where your money is being made. Plus at least in my experience in a decade of tech, you don't tend to get the best results from overseas teams unless it's just the most simple, non-customized deployment or support model. Language barrier and timezone delta is a hell of a cliff to climb when your platform is losing hundreds of thousands in revenue per hour of downtime.

[Snake Diggity 4,625]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Eh yes and no. You're going to need operational support and people on the clock in the same time zone as where your money is being made. Plus at least in my experience in a decade of tech, you don't tend to get the best results from overseas teams unless it's just the most simple, non-customized deployment or support model. Language barrier and timezone delta is a hell of a cliff to climb when your platform is losing hundreds of thousands in revenue per hour of downtime.

This.  I have worked extensively with offshored teams and they simply are not able to provide the same level of services, and that’s without even considering the time zone difference.

India will probably catch up, but it’ll be awhile and by that point AI will be the bigger threat to US remote-work jobs.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Snake Diggity

[NoRagrets 1,125]

I am requiring my team to come in one day per week. You would think I asked some of them to sacrifice their first born to the sun god. A few others were actually excited that they’d get to collaborate with their teammates.

The differences in reaction did not have a demo component.

I really value letting people work from home. It’s better for their stress and their efficiency. It’s also easier on their families. However, there’s a void that grows when people lose that sense of team and friendship with their coworkers. That’s why I settled on one day. I even let them come in later and leave earlier to avoid traffic.

It seems to be working for now, and allowing 4/5 wfh is actually helping my retention. 

[Auto Driller 2,506]

30 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A job that can be worked and managed remotely with little to no downside is one recession away from being a job in India.

So the only advantage to having US-based employees is their ability to physically show up in an office? Indian contractors are otherwise equal - is that right?

[Homercles 10,206]

18 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

This.  I have worked extensively with offshored teams and they simply are not able to provide the same level of services, and that’s without even considering the time zone difference.

India will probably catch up, but it’ll be awhile and by that point AI will be the bigger threat to US remote-work jobs.

Double this.  I have worked extensively with India for over 15 years, and can think of only a few that fully ‘got it’ with one that was truly outstanding (a woman, nonetheless, which was rare at the time for India).  It’s certainly better but there’s an extensive cultural element that is tough to overcome with being appropriately aggressive, empowered to speak up, lacking in western-business norms and general improvisational experience that can throw a wrench into the works of ‘just get it done’…those things are evident in many countries, just look at Russia’s military.  
 

Ive always wondered if a significant driver of that is the remnants of caste culture, complicated by the traditionally overpowering parents and reflective of such an overcrowded country as a whole.  I’m sure that’s changing but I still see a stark difference in stateside Indians / 2nd gen vs their peers still located on the subcontinent.  As always I’ll allow that my experience isn’t claiming truthdom for the world as a whole.  
 

That being said the one Asian country I have a lot of business experience with that most closet mirrors the US is the Philippines.  What a curious mix of Asian, Latin and ‘American’ culture.  In my time I didn’t run across a lot of overly amazing PM types but damn they rock out in call centers and know how to party. 
 

Basically I think you could replace me with an Indian equivalent, but the value in my role is bridging technical concepts to leadership in a visual manner through extensive collaboration and willingness to take risks…I wouldn’t be so sure a more rigid culture would match the quality of my output.  That being said, the financial / budget management piece secondary to my role I have full confidence someone else could do.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by Homercles

[NoName 16,354]

2 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

Hey guys you need to understand Elon is awesome because he’s putting juniors in their place.  They just don’t have the work ethic boomers have!  I bet they eat avocado toast at home in their apartment before they put on their Birkenstocks.

FIFY

[JBJ 3,654]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Eh yes and no. You're going to need operational support and people on the clock in the same time zone as where your money is being made. Plus at least in my experience in a decade of tech, you don't tend to get the best results from overseas teams unless it's just the most simple, non-customized deployment or support model. Language barrier and timezone delta is a hell of a cliff to climb when your platform is losing hundreds of thousands in revenue per hour of downtime.

11 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

This.  I have worked extensively with offshored teams and they simply are not able to provide the same level of services, and that’s without even considering the time zone difference.

India will probably catch up, but it’ll be awhile and by that point AI will be the bigger threat to US remote-work jobs.

My experience is the same, but my industry is at a point where turnaround is probably faster now when working with overseas teams because of the size of manpower available.  The quality still worse and non-standard items are still handled in US, but that's true of new employees as well. 

And these don't make my original statement less true.  It might take a team of 10 Indians to do the work of 2 US workers and it is harder to manage, but the cost is a fraction.

[Nivek 16,944]

This is the same guy that recently threatened to fire a group of SpaceEx interns because he saw them waiting in line to get coffee one morning. Had security cameras installed and said if he ever saw it happen again they'd all be gone.
 

Intern should wait til he is ordering a coffee then waltz right up there and take it from his hands.

[chainsaw 9,870]

3 minutes ago, JBJ said:

a team of 10 Indians

Maybe you can explain why they seem to be the leader in phone scams. Video for justice boner.

 

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Jesus just go back to the office, fucking cry babies. 

But people have options. Shut up and just fucking deal with it is one of those...but probably not one most people are going to choose if commuting to an office a) has no inherent value in their ability to their job and B) makes them less satisfied in their job.

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

But people have options. Shut up and just fucking deal with it is one of those...but probably not one most people are going to choose if commuting to an office a) has no inherent value in their ability to their job and B) makes them less satisfied in their job.

#whitecollarproblems

[Brian Fantana 6,689]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Jesus just go back to the office, fucking cry babies. 

Just sit back in your easy chair and eat your hard candies, you fucking boomer.

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Just sit back in your easy chair and eat your hard candies, you fucking boomer.

Why should middle to upper management for Tesla have different work standards than factory workers? You want equality, right? 

[Homercles 10,206]

People post reasoned and nuanced explanations on why they prefer WFH = crybabies.  

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

Just now, Homercles said:

People post reasoned and nuanced explanations on why they prefer WFH = crybabies.  

boo hoo my job is stressful, breaking news here, most everyone deals with stress at their job.

[Brian Fantana 6,689]

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

boo hoo my job is stressful, breaking news here, most everyone deals with stress at their job.

You seem stupid.

[Tom 2,959]

4 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

#whitecollarproblems

 

Learn to code.

[NoName 16,354]

2 minutes ago, Homercles said:

People post reasoned and nuanced explanations on why they prefer WFH = crybabies.  

nobody threadshits like BO&W.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

Super weird to see some people actively rooting for corporations everywhere to force everyone back to their miserable commutes and offices.

I distinctly recall some friends being more about improved employee rights (pay, hours, work load, etc.) when they were the lowly employees in their mid 20s. Now that they're managers, directors or VP in their 50s, I hear them whine about lazy employees who want everything and those employees should be thankful that the company is even offering them a job.

For many people, they start to believe that their path to success is the only way and younger employees have to get on board.

The other observation that I see is that departments and companies itself are struggling to make their goals and objectives in 2022 and a major reason is unfilled worker roles. 

[Auto Driller 2,506]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why should middle to upper management for Tesla have different work standards than factory workers? You want equality, right? 

Why should middle to upper management be paid more? Equality??

Perhaps the qualifications and job roles are very different. I don’t know though. I have it on good authority that “real” work can only be done after you commute 1 hour each way to and from your McMansion.

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

Just now, Auto Driller said:

Why should middle to upper management be paid more? Equality??

Perhaps the qualifications and job roles are very different. I don’t know though. I have it on good authority that “real” work can only be done after you commute 1 hour each way to and from your McMansion.

Cry harder about your commute....zero sympathy from me. 

[Auto Driller 2,506]

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Cry harder about your commute....zero sympathy from me. 

I don’t have a commute, but thanks.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

If you're a Tesla factory worker, you should actually love that many office workers (Tesla or elsewhere) work-from-home because this creates less traffic on the road and perhaps saves you 5-10 minutes in your commute. If the goal is to force equality of work experience, then EVERYONE has a worse experience.

[Brian Fantana 6,689]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Cry harder about your commute....zero sympathy from me. 

Who's asking for sympathy, dumbass? You're the one crying about people not coming into work because they don't want to talk to you. Are you lonely?

[Tom 2,959]

2 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

boo hoo my job is stressful, breaking news here, most everyone deals with stress at their job.

 

Again, it just amazes me seeing these posts from you, Mackelmore, and others that are cheerleading for a lower quality of life for workers.  Why?  What do you personally benefit from it?  Do y'all also root for workers to have higher health insurance deductibles and fewer vacation days?

Is it because you're on the back nine of your career/lives and you think that the younger generations shouldn't get something better that y'all didn't get the opportunity to have?

Also, the idea that Elon and others suggest when they claim people working from home are  "pretending to work" is kind of nonsense, too.  If I wasn't working, people would figure it out pretty quick.  If you can continue to not do your job and get away with it, you might not have a real job.  

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

Just now, Tom said:

 

Again, it just amazes me seeing these posts from you, Mackelmore, and others that are cheerleading for a lower quality of life for workers.  Why?  What do you personally benefit from it?  Do y'all also root for workers to have higher health insurance deductibles and fewer vacation days?

Is it because you're on the back nine of your career/lives and you think that the younger generations shouldn't get something better that y'all didn't get the opportunity to have?

Also, the idea that Elon and others suggest when they claim people working from home are  "pretending to work" is kind of nonsense, too.  If I wasn't working, people would figure it out pretty quick.  If you can continue to not do your job and get away with it, you might not have a real job.  

Why are only mid and upper management given quality of life benefits? 

[Tom 2,959]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why are only mid and upper management given quality of life benefits? 

 

Who has claimed only management should work from home?  Absolutely nobody.  Dude, when COVID happened and started this conversation, do you think only managers went and worked from home?

If your job doesn't have a function that requires you to be on site, there's the qualifier.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Tom

[NoName 16,354]

4 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Why are only mid and upper management given quality of life benefits? 

nobody has been in favor of that in this thread, and this is spoken like someone who has never, ever, dealt with people or companies who actually have people WFH

[Homercles 10,206]

Well after the latest disingenuous posts by BO&W, my vote is just ignore him.  You aren’t going to convince him of anything

[Snake Diggity 4,625]

Your revolution is over, Mr. BurntOrange&White. Condolences. The bums won. My advice is to do what your kids did; get a work from home job, sir. The bums will always win. Do you hear me, BurntOrange&White?

[6th Street 6,412]

Personally after > 1 year of sitting at home staring at the screens and doing zoom calls I couldn't wait to get back into the office. In person presentations instead of over zoom. Hot ass girls walking around in yoga pants outside, hitting up the coffee shop, broker sponsored happy hours and lunches, etc. 

I can't speak to the people who have hour long commutes, but getting things back to normal in the office has been phenomenal. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

37 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Cry harder about your commute....zero sympathy from me. 

nobody is asking for sympathy you dipshit.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

I didn't spend much time in corporate America, but one of the things I recall vividly is various managers that didn't seem to add any value to the company but had somehow ingratiated themselves with the power brokers. I was just a peon at the time, but even from my seat, it was obvious they held their title because they were either really well-liked or played the corporate game like a savage, not because they actually produced a ton of income for the company. They were mostly worthless.

I guess what I'm saying is I have to think @BurntOrange&White and @Macklemore feel very threatened by an environment where folks are judged almost entirely upon their production as opposed to their ability to yuck it up at the water cooler.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I didn't spend much time in corporate America, but one of the things I recall vividly is various managers that didn't seem to add any value to the company but had somehow ingratiated themselves with the power brokers. I was just a peon at the time, but even from my seat, it was obvious they held their title because they were either really well-liked or played the corporate game like a savage, not because they actually produced a ton of income for the company. They were mostly worthless.

I guess what I'm saying is I have to think @BurntOrange&White and @Macklemore feel very threatened by an environment where folks are judged almost entirely upon their production as opposed to their ability to yuck it up at the water cooler.

interesting point. I wouldn't be quite this pessimistic in regards to the water cooler idea but employees working from home could be threatening to a leader who succeeded in the old environment. Will they continue to succeed when they now don't know how to do their mgmt job? Adapt or die.

[Tom 2,959]

6 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Personally after > 1 year of sitting at home staring at the screens and doing zoom calls I couldn't wait to get back into the office. In person presentations instead of over zoom. Hot ass girls walking around in yoga pants outside, hitting up the coffee shop, broker sponsored happy hours and lunches, etc. 

I can't speak to the people who have hour long commutes, but getting things back to normal in the office has been phenomenal. 

 

And that's fair.  I'm all about choice.  I'm sure there are a number of people who enjoy working away from home.  My brother-in-law chose to stay at the office for the two years he had the option because he had three young, noisy kids always running around the house at home and he found it distracting.  To each their own.  

A company I worked for more than a decade ago, long before this became a national debate, gave you the choice to work remotely from home after you'd been there 1 year and proved yourself reliable.  Some people chose to stay and work from the offices, most chose work from home.  In the end, everyone seemed happy and I'm sure the company saved money by only needing to lease out a much smaller office space for about 25%-30% of the work staff that was ever on site.  There were happy hours and work events available to everyone regardless of whether you worked in office or at home.

[Larry T. Spider 1,746]

Would you rather hire the best people that live within commuting range of your office or hire the best people in the world?

[F250 28,777]

1 hour ago, Auto Driller said:

So the only advantage to having US-based employees is their ability to physically show up in an office? Indian contractors are otherwise equal - is that right?

He's an idiot.

 

[Chopper 17,236]

When I think about having to physically go to an office for work, what would make me apprehensive is having to shit in a public restroom. That, and planning lunch.  A commute at rush hour would suck but I could deal with it with a comfortable ride, tunes and/or a podcast.

The thing I'd be wary of as an employer is that times have changed, many of my competitors (for employees) don't require daily 9 to 5 attendance, and if I wanted to retain key talent a policy like that would be akin to shooting myself in the foot.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Chopper

[F250 28,777]

37 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

Would you rather hire the best people that live within commuting range of your office or hire the best people in the world?

This is a big factor in hiring remote in my particular field. It's just so much easier to recruit talent when you are not limited to a city.

I remember around 2011 I was having trouble finding a couple of people for a hybrid WFH/office job. There was a twice a week in office requirement but that meant recruiting the surrounding area. After the job sitting open for a couple of months we removed the in office requirement to expand the search in order to find qualified talent.

The ease of recruiting remote talent was a game changer.

[crash_davis 23,113]

Some people want the comradery of an office. No issues with that. If you are younger and new to the city, work is the best way to build a friend network. It's also the best place to find new ass although young people will eventually learn that banging co-workers is simply not worth the impending bullshit. 

As you get older and wiser, get married and have kids, there is no appeal of going to the office, well unless you hate your family but that's another matter. You realize that as long as you at minimum do your job, it doesn't matter where the fuck or how little hours that happens. You want more time with family and friends, more time on hobbies, more time fucking around on Surly, just simple MORE TIME for yourself, and less time working to insure that some dude keeps his uber wealth.

As to working from home and productivity, fuck any of you who think that you can't produce if you are not at the office. If you are a manager and have that thought, well then you suck at leading and managing your people.

Edited June 2, 2022 by crash_davis

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

25 minutes ago, Chopper said:

The thing I'd be wary of as an employer is that times have changed, many of my competitors (for employees) don't require daily 9 to 5 attendance, and if I wanted to retain key talent a policy like that would be akin to shooting myself in the foot.

Tesla doesn't have to worry about that. Did you not read @52-80's survey of...checks notes...college students?

[BurntOrange&White 39,934]

If you worked at the office before Covid there is no reason you shouldn’t go back aside from being entitled. 

[crash_davis 23,113]

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

If you worked at the office before Covid there is no reason you shouldn’t go back aside from being entitled. 

Your opinion is severely in the minority but keep dying on this hill. Your boss would be proud. 

[Royalfan5 2,354]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

If you worked at the office before Covid there is no reason you shouldn’t go back aside from being entitled. 

Your employer shedding office leases would be one reason you shouldn't go back, since there wouldn't be anyone else there. 

[texasdago 7,575]

The "Get off my Lawn!!!" people really hate change, don't they?

What I see it this...

I like the flexibility to go in or work from home.  Occasionally I like to work away from the house so I can choose to do so when I can.  What I do find though is that when I work from home, I start earlier and I often work through lunch.  I may end a little earlier but there's certainly no drop off in "production" per se.  I do know that when I have to drive into an office, I waste a lot of time going to/from (even though my "commute" is totally reasonable and not overly oppressive).  

One of my clients who is very "traditional" told me that their belief is "work happens at work"... and they wonder why attrition is through the roof.  

Elon is just pissed he has all this real estate that costs him money and that his crappy coffee is getting lukewarm on the burner.

I mean, who wouldn't want to go back to this workers' paradise?

[Chopper 17,236]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

If you worked at the office before Covid there is no reason you shouldn’t go back aside from being entitled. 

LOL you are right. Abnsolutely NOTHING has changed other than people discovered they enjoyed not having to drive for an hour or 2 every day, many employers thrived by hiring people to work remotely, people discovered they enjoyed living someplace new and weren't tied to a commute, and many employers found they were able to hire better and smarter employees who were self-motivated.