Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?

[Ted Lange 16,113]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....if they actually offered this look, I might be listening.....

[C-Man 27,254]

42 minutes ago, Goredho said:

"Eat my road grit, liver lips."

[Neonmoon 38,130]

I'm not mad, you're mad

[Deej 76,897]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean.....if they actually offered this look, I might be listening.....

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:03 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

If it’s just a software change, how is it not just a forced push over air to all of the vehicles?

It is.  Mine is updating as I post this. 

On 12/17/2023 at 7:16 AM, Neonmoon said:

I mean the fact Waymo actually has these on streets with people able to use them definitely means they’re light years ahead of Tesla 

On 12/17/2023 at 11:07 AM, MrBig said:

Waymo uses lidar. Tesla does not. Lidar is much safer and accurate for self driving vehicles. Tesla only uses images from cameras. Your eyes can play tricks on you, but lidar knows better. 

https://www.theverge.com/23776430/lidar-tesla-autonomous-cars-elon-musk-waymo

I question that Waymo is "light years" ahead of Tesla. 

Waymo vehicles only operate in limited geographic areas that are meticulously mapped with LIDAR so that the vehicles can compare the LIDAR map to what its LIDAR sees.  That's why Waymo vehicles have seen limited release only in urban and suburban areas.  They cannot operate outside of those limited areas.  LIDAR maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.

Tesla's is a more general approach that aims to develop an AI Driver that can operate on any roads and use visual input and GPS to make it's driving decisions like human drivers currently do.  It is a more adaptable approach than the LIDAR-mapped approach.   Telsa's FSD beta vehicles are operating all over the country.

I don't know which approach will win out.  If we ever want to move to a fully autonomous transportation system on all of our roads, Tesla's approach seems to have the most potential.  If we want to limit fully autonomous vehicles to higher population urban areas only, then Waymo surely has the jump there.    

 

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

Yeah, who could ever guess which approach is more likely to yield actual self driving cars:

1.  The approach that believes “maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.”

or

2. The “more general approach”.  

 

I agree that approach #1 sounds like the winner, except that it is largely impractical for broad application at the level of detail required for LIDAR equipped vehicles.  
 

“General” was a poor choice of word by me.  I should have said “more broadly applicable.” 

[Captain Ron 12,894]

3 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

I don't know which approach will win out.  If we ever want to move to a fully autonomous transportation system on all of our roads, Tesla's approach seems to have the most potential.  If we want to limit fully autonomous vehicles to higher population urban areas only, then Waymo surely has the jump there.    

 

I do, it won’t be Tesla.

Former engineers from Tesla and those working in the field now have said that only using cameras will not work. it just isn’t feasible with the limited technology.

You aren’t wrong that Waymo and Cruise currently only work in mapped areas. But that is a choice, not a need. They could attempt to operate in unmapped areas, they just choose to have the maps as an extra layer of data. 

and this is your mistake looking through the fanboi glasses. The approach that the real autonomous car companies are using isn’t less broadly applicable, they are much more data driven. They have cameras, radar, lidar, maps, etc. They want the most data to have the safest solution possible.

The Tesla approach isn’t “more broadly applicable”, the goal is to do it as cheap as possible with the fewest parts possible. Thats not extensible, it’s very limiting. And it’s why aggy EV has been saying for years “next year we’ll have it” yet not delivered on that promise. 

[atomheartbevo 89,777]

6 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Former engineers from Tesla and those working in the field now have said that only using cameras will not work. it just isn’t feasible with the limited technology.

This still blows my mind.  I get that they needed to save some bucks, but that's a short-term/next-quarter solution, rather than a long-term solution.

[Captainant 27,727]

3 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

It is.  Mine is updating as I post this. 

I question that Waymo is "light years" ahead of Tesla. 

Waymo vehicles only operate in limited geographic areas that are meticulously mapped with LIDAR so that the vehicles can compare the LIDAR map to what its LIDAR sees.  That's why Waymo vehicles have seen limited release only in urban and suburban areas.  They cannot operate outside of those limited areas.  LIDAR maps not only need to be exceptionally thorough, they need to be constantly updated with roadway changes and construction impacts.

Tesla's is a more general approach that aims to develop an AI Driver that can operate on any roads and use visual input and GPS to make it's driving decisions like human drivers currently do.  It is a more adaptable approach than the LIDAR-mapped approach.   Telsa's FSD beta vehicles are operating all over the country.

I don't know which approach will win out.  If we ever want to move to a fully autonomous transportation system on all of our roads, Tesla's approach seems to have the most potential.  If we want to limit fully autonomous vehicles to higher population urban areas only, then Waymo surely has the jump there.    

 

You are grossly mischaracterizing Waymo's sensor fusion approach. Their long term strategy is to gain real world data across a ton of instruments to build an agent based driving model that is generalizable. And they use more than just LIDAR, since it turns out that fog and rain significantly degrade their visibility. 

You need more than just one set of inputs from the outside world to effectively drive. Tesla's approach will never work in anything less than a sterile environment 

[Prepuce of Doom 21,100]

33 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You are grossly mischaracterizing Waymo's sensor fusion approach. Their long term strategy is to gain real world data across a ton of instruments to build an agent based driving model that is generalizable. And they use more than just LIDAR, since it turns out that fog and rain significantly degrade their visibility. 

You need more than just one set of inputs from the outside world to effectively drive. Tesla's approach will never work in anything less than a sterile environment 

Sterile/involuntarily celibate, 220, 221....

[Biff Tannen 45,712]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

This still blows my mind.  I get that they needed to save some bucks, but that's a short-term/next-quarter solution, rather than a long-term solution.

Hmm, I wonder what country's stock market and corporate structure gave them that incentive.

[tbone_ 14,146]

Uber picked me up in a model 3 today. Easily worst riding modern car I’ve ever been in. Was so bad I wonder if something was wrong with it.

The GF’s model Y is fine.

[Captain Ron 12,894]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

This still blows my mind.  I get that they needed to save some bucks, but that's a short-term/next-quarter solution, rather than a long-term solution.

I want to go back to this to touch on it a bit more. I think sometime In the future, cameras only could be a solution. But we aren’t there yet.
 

I think for the first generation of full AV, we need a package that uses more input than we have (eyes,ears) and slowly start figuring out what we don’t need. Maybe full mapped area is unnecessary and those can be dumped. Maybe a good radar array is enough and LiDAR can be dropped. Who knows?

What I can say is that trying to under engineer a problem is a lot harder than trying to over engineer it. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Captain Ron

[Brian Fantana 6,690]

2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

What I can say is that trying to under engineer a problem is a lot harder than trying to over engineer it. 

Quoted and bolded for the motherfucking truth. Tesla's approach is unbelievably stupid and I guarantee you everyone that works on that project hates their job.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,211]

13 hours ago, Nivek said:

And their stock price today vs what it was back in 2010-2017?

Contrast that to Halliburton.

Any Weatherford shares bought back in 2010-2017 are currently worth $0 since they were delisted.  The current stock price is for shares issued after they came out of Chapter 11.

[Homercles 10,206]

16 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

I agree that approach #1 sounds like the winner, except that it is largely impractical for broad application at the level of detail required for LIDAR equipped vehicles.  

[HenryJames 66,160]

Mostly.

[Neonmoon 38,130]

That's one way to die

[Captainant 27,727]

44 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Mostly.

[Laughs in panel gaps]

[Captain Ron 12,894]

Hey Cyberdorks, this doesn’t apply to you. 
 

[NoName 16,369]

15 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

I do, it won’t be Tesla.

Former engineers from Tesla and those working in the field now have said that only using cameras will not work. it just isn’t feasible with the limited technology.

You aren’t wrong that Waymo and Cruise currently only work in mapped areas. But that is a choice, not a need. They could attempt to operate in unmapped areas, they just choose to have the maps as an extra layer of data. 

and this is your mistake looking through the fanboi glasses. The approach that the real autonomous car companies are using isn’t less broadly applicable, they are much more data driven. They have cameras, radar, lidar, maps, etc. They want the most data to have the safest solution possible.

The Tesla approach isn’t “more broadly applicable”, the goal is to do it as cheap as possible with the fewest parts possible. Thats not extensible, it’s very limiting. And it’s why aggy EV has been saying for years “next year we’ll have it” yet not delivered on that promise. 

this is what i don't understand, everyone under the sun working on solving this says more data points/ways to collect data is better. TSLA cut back (to save $$$ or because of parts shortages IIRC?) to only cameras.

literally no one other than TSLA says that cams only will work.

i fully expect the dude to bring up how many miles TSLA has mapped/driven next but that isn't applicable.

this is a fundamental issue with them and their company that their CEO should be working night and day on that is as big of a threat to their company as any that has ever existed - seriously. instead he's out here shitposting and posting shitty memes at 3AM.

here is the real issue for them: if someone solves it they can license it out quickly to a ton more companies, gather more data, improve the product, which leads to more licensing opportunities, which leads to more data, which leads to larger gaps between the market leaders and everyone else.

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

[NoName 16,369]

lol

Tesla Has The Highest Accident Rate Of Any Auto Brand

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=20c8bc332894

Quote

Tesla drivers are the most accident-prone, according to a LendingTree analysis of 30 car brands. It found that Tesla drivers are involved in more accidents than drivers of any other brand. Tesla drivers had 23.54 accidents per 1,000 drivers. Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90) were the only other brands with more than 20.00 accidents per 1,000 drivers for every brand.

the story it's from: https://www.lendingtree.com/insurance/brand-incidents-study/

+

+

 

[NoName 16,369]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Mostly.

we actually have video of the first time this was tried:

 

 

[Homercles 10,206]

Call me when they cross the English channel

[Captain Ron 12,894]

28 minutes ago, NoName said:

this is what i don't understand, everyone under the sun working on solving this says more data points/ways to collect data is better. TSLA cut back (to save $$$ or because of parts shortages IIRC?) to only cameras.

literally no one other than TSLA says that cams only will work.

i fully expect the dude to bring up how many miles TSLA has mapped/driven next but that isn't applicable.

this is a fundamental issue with them and their company that their CEO should be working night and day on that is as big of a threat to their company as any that has ever existed - seriously. instead he's out here shitposting and posting shitty memes at 3AM.

here is the real issue for them: if someone solves it they can license it out quickly to a ton more companies, gather more data, improve the product, which leads to more licensing opportunities, which leads to more data, which leads to larger gaps between the market leaders and everyone else.

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

 

https://www.engineering.com/story/now-revealed-why-teslas-have-only-camera-based-vision

So in there he says:

Quote

“Vision became so good that radar actually reduced SNR [signal to noise ratio], so radar was turned off,” said Musk in a tweet in October of 2021. “Humans drive with eyes & biological neural nets, so makes sense that cameras & silicon neural nets are only way to achieve generalized solution to self-driving.”

That REALLY tells me that everyone should stay the fuck away from his cars. That's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the driving task.

I have also heard that has been claimed by Elon was that he wants to democratize AV for everyone. He wants to offer autonomous driving for every level of their cars and the only way that is possible would be camera only because they don't stick all of the electronics into the lower levels of cars. I do find that an interesting claim. Most manufacturers can put radar and LiDAR in lower end cars. Toyota has them in their Corolla and from what I can tell it's in pretty low badging levels.

[atomheartbevo 89,777]

45 minutes ago, NoName said:

the singular reason to stick with cameras is because their CEO thinks it can be done via cameras only and has said it multiple times in the past. that's it.

Well, you see he read this tweet from catturd69420 at 3 in the morning that said it can all be done with cameras, because radars allow the government to send signals into your brain.

[Goredho 17,413]

2 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Mostly.

[Celery Man 20,996]

error bars on that mercury stat must be wild

[High Plains Drifter 11,050]

 

I for one am shocked! that Ram drivers are the worst. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19,428]

3 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Mostly.

[choripan 790]

3 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Elon boat bullshit.

 

[choripan 790]

Difference is, OceanGate only put their "crew" at risk and not innocent third-parties.

Elon puts my life, my kids' and wife's lives, and your life at risk with his beta testing horseshit. You're part of the problem if you don't watch your system like a hawk, Guadaloopy. If you do, more power to you.

[bolverk 29,708]

Just wait until he takes on autonomous flying cybertrucks.

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

I know we hate Elon here and that none of his shit will ever work as ever advertised...

except that yesterday my FSD beta Model 3 drove me 12.9 miles to Costco on neighborhood streets with 25 mph speed limit, rural roads with 45-50 mph speed limit with stop signs at intersections, turning onto a a state highway with 65 mph speed limit and cross-traffic, a city street with 45mph speed limits with multiple stoplights at major intersections and one stretch of road construction down to one lane...  all with zero intervention from me, the driver.

There may be other ways to skin this cat, but to say that Tesla's approach is doomed to failure just isn't supported by reality.

 

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

16 minutes ago, choripan said:

Difference is, OceanGate only put their "crew" at risk and not innocent third-parties.

Elon puts my life, my kids' and wife's lives, and your life at risk with his beta testing horseshit. You're part of the problem if you don't watch your system like a hawk, Guadaloopy. If you do, more power to you.

I absolutely do.  I want to see where the weaknesses in the system are.  I'm seeing fewer and fewer all of the time.

[Brisketexan 105,273]

I 1000% believe the stat on Tesla drivers being among the shittiest.  For fuck's sake, just last night, I was leaving HEB.  Tesla in front of me as I'm driving down the parking lot aisle towards the exit.  Tesla is putzing along at around 1-2 mph.  Then stops, blocking the whole aisle.  So I can't fucking go home.  I honk.  It takes a few seconds, but it begins moving....again, at around 1-2 mph.  Gets to the exit drive, stops diagonally across it, blocking both entrance and exit lanes.  Finally goes out into the street (unfortunately, heading the same direction I am).  AGAIN, he's driving now around 3-5 mph . . . . and now, he's straddling the lane marker, so I can't even go around him.  Driving obliviously slow, taking up the entire road.  Yep, it completely checks out.

The number of things about Elon and his brands that AREN'T shitty is pretty close to absolute zero.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Captainant 27,727]

8 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I know we hate Elon here and that none of his shit will ever work as ever advertised...

except that yesterday my FSD beta Model 3 drove me 12.9 miles to Costco on neighborhood streets with 25 mph speed limit, rural roads with 45-50 mph speed limit with stop signs at intersections, turning onto a a state highway with 65 mph speed limit and cross-traffic, a city street with 45mph speed limits with multiple stoplights at major intersections and one stretch of road construction down to one lane...  all with zero intervention from me, the driver.

There may be other ways to skin this cat, but to say that Tesla's approach is doomed to failure just isn't supported by reality.

 

6 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I absolutely do.  I want to see where the weaknesses in the system are.  I'm seeing fewer and fewer all of the time.

Sure is convenient for tesla that they've been allowed to kill and injure so many people in the name of progress while ignoring known flaws like failure to properly handle emergency vehicles. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19,428]

Tesla driver hit a kid on a bike in my neighborhood a couple weeks ago. Driver literally said "I didn't think this could happen in this car". Dude tried to give the kid $100 and leave. Two Karens that were out in their yards and saw it happen called the cops and wouldn't let him leave. Kid was fine. 

[NoName 16,369]

23 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I know we hate Elon here and that none of his shit will ever work as ever advertised...

except that yesterday my FSD beta Model 3 drove me 12.9 miles to Costco on neighborhood streets with 25 mph speed limit, rural roads with 45-50 mph speed limit with stop signs at intersections, turning onto a a state highway with 65 mph speed limit and cross-traffic, a city street with 45mph speed limits with multiple stoplights at major intersections and one stretch of road construction down to one lane...  all with zero intervention from me, the driver.

There may be other ways to skin this cat, but to say that Tesla's approach is doomed to failure just isn't supported by reality.

glad it worked for you, with the way FSD works now it will never reach level 5/fully autonomous driving because of the camera only approach. can't make the jump to level 3 even, which means it is going to be jumped eventually by any provider who uses a combo of cameras + literally anything else.

FSD is currently designated level 2. it can never jump to level 3 because of the exclusive use of cameras. meaning that there is no baked in redundancy if the main system "fails", which is not an actual stop working entirely designation, but if there is dust on the camera, or low light or direct sun. because of how TSLA and FSD works the backup is the human driver, not some kind of sensor-based backup.

the FSD exclusive focus on cameras absolutely is doomed to failure based on everything we know about how these things work and based on what the entire industry, outside of TSLA, says.

Edited December 19, 2023 by NoName

[wildcat09 29,376]

17 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Tesla driver hit a kid on a bike in my neighborhood a couple weeks ago. Driver literally said "I didn't think this could happen in this car". Dude tried to give the kid $100 and leave. Two Karens that were out in their yards and saw it happen called the cops and wouldn't let him leave. Kid was fine. 

Elon should absolutely go to prison for fraudulently advertising Tesla's alleged FSD capability. 

[choripan 790]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I 1000% believe the stat on Tesla drivers being among the shittiest.  For fuck's sake, just last night, I was leaving HEB.  Tesla in front of me as I'm driving down the parking lot aisle towards the exit.  Tesla is putzing along at around 1-2 mph.  Then stops, blocking the whole aisle.  So I can't fucking go home.  I honk.  It takes a few seconds, but it begins moving....again, at around 1-2 mph.  Gets to the exit drive, stops diagonally across it, blocking both entrance and exit lanes.  Finally goes out into the street (unfortunately, heading the same direction I am).  AGAIN, he's driving now around 3-5 mph . . . . and now, he's straddling the lane marker, so I can't even go around him.  Driving obliviously slow, taking up the entire road.  Yep, it completely checks out.

The number of things about Elon and his brands that AREN'T shitty is pretty close to absolute zero.

First problem is driving their car in the HEB.

[Guadaloopy 11,012]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

 

Sure is convenient for tesla that they've been allowed to kill and injure so many people in the name of progress while ignoring known flaws like failure to properly handle emergency vehicles. 

Don't be disingenuous.  Was there a problem with this at one time?  Yes.  Has it been addressed?  Yes.

Your linked article lumps all driver assist functions in with the FSD designation which is false equivalence.  I'm sure a reporter could do an article on accidents that occurred in Fords that had cruise control or lane assist engaged, but there aren't any clicks in that.

People are scared of the future.  I get it.  When someone pushes boundaries, folks pay closer attention.  That's what has been happening with Tesla.

Consumer safety groups consistently choose Tesla vehicles as some of the safest on the roads, yet Tesla's are a menace to our highways.  

 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

1 hour ago, Guadaloopy said:

People are scared of the future.  I get it. 

[Chopper 17,243]

“Humans drive with eyes & biological neural nets, so makes sense that cameras & silicon neural nets are only way to achieve generalized solution to self-driving.”

People who believe that type of bullshit are the same type of people with a blind spot so large that they'd endorse shooting off a large space rocket without a launch pad.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Chopper

[Francisco 2.0 32,416]

https://www.reuters.com/technology/an-abused-wife-took-tesla-over-tracking-tech-she-lost-2023-12-19/

 

Quote

San Francisco police Sergeant David Radford contacted Tesla in May 2020 with a request on a case: Could the automaker provide data on an alleged stalker’s remote access to a vehicle?

A woman had come into the station visibly shaken, according to a police report. She told police that her abusive husband, in violation of a restraining order, was stalking and harassing her using the technology in their 2016 Tesla Model X.

The SUV allows owners to remotely access its location and control other features through a smartphone app. She told police she had discovered a metal baseball bat in the back seat — the same bat the husband had previously used to threaten her, the police report stated.

 

 

Quote

Weeks later, Sergeant Radford asked Tesla (TSLA.O) for data that might help the investigation. A Tesla service manager replied that remote-access logs were only available within seven days of the events recorded, according to records in a lawsuit the woman later filed. Radford’s investigation stalled.

Cases of technology-enabled stalking involving cars are emerging as automakers add ever-more-sophisticated features, such as location tracking and remote control of functions such as locking doors or honking the horn, according to interviews with divorce lawyers, private investigators and anti-domestic-violence advocates. Such abusive behavior using other devices, such as phone spyware or tracking devices, has long been a concern, prompting technology companies including Google and Apple to design safeguards into their products.

 

Quote

Reuters examined the details of the San Francisco case and another one involving alleged stalking through Tesla technology but could not quantify the scope of such abuse. Tesla has encountered at least one other case of stalking through its vehicle app, according to a Tesla employee’s testimony in the San Francisco woman’s lawsuit. Some attorneys, private investigators and anti-abuse advocates said in interviews that they knew of similar cases but declined to provide details, citing privacy and security concerns.

Tesla did not respond to requests for comment. Radford and the San Francisco Police Department did not comment on the investigation.

 

 

Spoiler

The San Francisco case offers insight into the complex considerations these technologies pose for auto companies and law enforcement. Other automakers offer similar tracking and remote-access features, and an industry group has acknowledged the need for protections to ensure car technology doesn’t become a tool for abuse.

The Alliance for Automotive Innovation (AAI), a technology-focused trade group for automakers and suppliers, in 2021 cited spousal violence as a reason why California regulators should not require carmakers to release location or other personal data in most cases under a new state privacy law. The law sought to give consumers broadly the right to access their personal data being tracked by companies. The auto group argued some car owners might improperly request personal data on other drivers of the same vehicle.

Disclosing location-tracking data to an abuser could create “the potential for significant harm,” wrote the AAI. The group’s membership includes many major automakers, but not Tesla.

Some automakers have taken steps to prevent the misuse of data their vehicles track. General Motors spokesperson Kelly Cusinato said GM’s OnStar mobile system allows all drivers to mask their location, even if they are not the vehicle’s owner or primary user. Rivian, which makes electric trucks and SUVs, is working on a similar function, said Wassym Bensaid, senior vice president of software development.

Rivian hasn’t encountered a case of domestic abuse through its vehicle technology, according to Bensaid, but believes “users should have a right to control where that information goes.”

GM declined to comment on whether its technology had been involved in any alleged domestic abuse.

REQUEST DENIED

The San Francisco woman sued her husband in state Superior Court in 2020 on claims including assault and sexual battery. She later named Tesla as a defendant, accusing the automaker of negligence for continuing to provide the husband access to the car despite the restraining order against him. Her lawsuit sought monetary damages from Tesla.

The woman, at her request, is identified in court papers only by her initials; she cited a risk of physical harm. Her husband is also identified only by his initials.

Reuters reviewed court filings, police reports, depositions, company emails and other documents in the case, which has not been previously reported.

The woman made multiple requests to Tesla in writing and in person, according to her lawsuit, seeking remote data logs and asking Tesla to disable her husband’s account. The requests started in 2018, more than a year before Radford, the police investigator, sought data from Tesla.

Tesla told the woman that it could not remove her husband’s access to the car’s technology because his name remained on the vehicle’s title as a co-owner, along with hers, according to records she filed in her lawsuit.

Tesla prevailed in the lawsuit. After denying the San Francisco police request for evidence, the automaker argued she had no proof that her husband used the car’s features to stalk her. Tesla also argued the restraining order against the woman’s husband never specifically ordered the automaker to act.

The woman and her husband settled the lawsuit in 2023 on undisclosed terms. Their divorce case is pending. The restraining order against the husband remains in effect.

The husband, in a deposition, denied tracking or harassing his wife through the vehicle’s technology. His attorney declined to comment.

In a separate case, Renée Izambard said in an interview that her then-husband was tracking her on his Tesla app after he made comments to her indicating he knew where she had been. Izambard filed for divorce from her husband in 2018 and alleged years of physical and psychological abuse.

Izambard said in an interview her ex-husband’s tracking of her through the vehicle was “just one part of a much wider pattern of coercive control.”

Her ex-husband and his attorney did not respond to requests for comment.

Unlike the San Francisco woman, Izambard had her own access to change the account settings and turn off its connection to the internet, so she did not have to interact with Tesla, she said. Tesla cars allow a primary account holder to add additional drivers who can access the car’s features and settings – or the primary user can deny other drivers that access, according to the San Francisco woman’s lawsuit. She complained in court records that the company only allowed one primary account holder even in cases like hers, where two people co-owned the vehicle.

NO POLICY

Long before the latest automotive features enabled stalking, abusers used other technology on smartphones or tracking devices, said Jeff Kaplan, a private investigator.

Apple launched its AirTag location-tracking device in 2021 as a way to help people find lost purses or keys. The small tags can easily be concealed in a car’s interior or other locations, and soon became a favorite tool for one partner to track another. “I’m getting those all the time,” Kaplan said.

Earlier this year, Apple and Google jointly proposed standardized technology that could be adopted by any tech company that would allow for alerting people who are being tracked without their knowledge through tags or smartphone features. The idea, presented to a tech-industry standards organization, won praise from some anti-domestic abuse advocates. Apple and Google did not comment for this story.

In the San Francisco case, Tesla said in response to a plaintiff’s written request for information that it “does not have a specific companywide policy” regarding how to handle stalking allegations involving its vehicles’ technology.

Stalkers always find a way to use location data, making this problem “totally foreseeable,” said Catherine Crump, a Berkeley Law School professor specializing in privacy issues involving technology.

“It is disappointing that a company as sophisticated and well-resourced as Tesla doesn’t have better answers to this,” said Crump, who is also a former adviser to the White House Domestic Policy Council.

BAT IN THE VEHICLE

When the San Francisco woman and her husband bought the Tesla Model X in January 2016, he set himself up as the administrator on the account and listed her as an additional driver, her lawsuit said. That meant she could not remove his access without his password.

After they separated in August 2018, a family law judge found she had suffered repeated physical abuse during the marriage, which the husband acknowledged, as well as sexual abuse, which he denied, court records show. The judge found her version of events credible and his “less credible.”

Over the next several months, the woman alleged, she regularly returned to the car to find that its settings and features appeared to have been manipulated. She found the doors open, the suspension settings changed, and the vehicle’s ability to charge turned off. When she asked service center employees for help, they tried to disconnect the car from the Internet, but those attempts failed, she said in court records.

Two letters, one of them dated in 2018, to Tesla’s legal department by anti-domestic abuse advocates on the woman’s behalf asked the company to preserve data logs and remove the husband’s access. Tesla told the court it could not find these letters in its files.

Eventually, a Tesla service center manager contacted Tesla deputy general counsel Ryan McCarthy for advice, the manager said in a deposition reviewed by Reuters. McCarthy said the woman needed to have her husband removed from the vehicle’s title in order for the company to disable his account, the service manager testified.

McCarthy did not respond to requests for comment.

In its successful defense against the woman’s lawsuit, Tesla cited the husband’s denials and said she had “no proof other than her “belief and imagination” that her husband used the car’s technology to stalk her.

San Francisco Superior Court Judge Curtis Karnow agreed with Tesla, writing in a 2022 opinion that both the woman and her husband “had a right” to use the car technology. It is unclear how Tesla was supposed to determine whether her allegations were legitimate, he wrote.

“A jilted partner might fabricate misuse charges to punish the other,” Karnow wrote, adding that the consequences of imposing liability for car manufacturers “would be broad and incalculable.”

In late 2020, the San Francisco woman was allowed by a family court judge to sell the jointly owned Tesla.

 

 

[MissingInAction 25,172]

I knew Tesla drivers would overtake ram drivers as 

Also not surprised about suburu drivers because women.

[Chopper 17,243]

from the article @Captain Ronlinked above

Quote

Of all the sensors on Waymos, or any of the other robotaxis commonly seen in San Francisco, the LiDAR is the most visible and most expensive...Solid state LiDAR units with no moving parts, aka LiDAR on a chip, promise to bring the price of adding LiDAR way down...Its mass production is scheduled to start in 2025. But Elon Musk does not have patience.

Odd, given:

Edited December 19, 2023 by Chopper

[Pam Cummings 9,654]

I saw a cybertruck the other day. Looked like a giant piece of shit. Dude driving it looked like a complete clown. No surprise there.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,587]

2 hours ago, choripan said:

First problem is driving their car in the HEB.

 

[Schulz2.0 29,007]

50 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I knew Tesla drivers would overtake ram drivers as 

Also not surprised about suburu drivers because women.

Are you saying it's bad I drive a Ram and my wife drives a Subaru?