Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?

[troph 24500]

So a woman assigned female at birth (AFAB) with higher testosterone than a trans woman (AMAB) can compete but the trans woman can’t? Because why? This shit is so fucking stupid.  I’m fine with a well thought out standard that doesn’t per se exclude any class of people carte blanche, but make no mistake about it this is policing women’s bodies. It’s fucked up. 

[Gene Parmesan 3970]

37 minutes ago, troph said:

So a woman assigned female at birth (AFAB) with higher testosterone than a trans woman (AMAB) can compete but the trans woman can’t? Because why? This shit is so fucking stupid.  I’m fine with a well thought out standard that doesn’t per se exclude any class of people carte blanche, but make no mistake about it this is policing women’s bodies. It’s fucked up. 

An AMAB going through puberty and teenage years as an AMAB then transitioning to a female as an adult lowering testosterone to match that of a AFAB is going to be athletically superior to an AFAB.  But have at I don’t really care about women’s sports. 

[troph 24500]

2 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

An AMAB going through puberty and teenage years as an AMAB then transitioning to a female as an adult lowering testosterone to match that of a AFAB is going to be athletically superior to an AFAB.  But have at I don’t really care about women’s sports. 

You’re wrong if you are saying ”athletically superior” as tried and true rule. You are just so fucking wrong.  Hint, I’m an athlete and win and lose just like every other woman I compete against. 

Edited August 2 by troph

[Captain Ron 12771]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah....it's a pretty fucked-up conversation.  She was born with a vagina, has lived her whole life as a woman.  ZERO "trans" or "transition."  She has high testosterone levels, which is an actual medical thing that actually happens (rare, but a known thing that happens with regular frequency).

Want to have a conversation about whether a woman with those NATURAL testosterone levels should compete in women's events?  Sure, have at it.  Set a standard, apply it, and move on.  Seems like a standard was set in this sport by the current governing body, she met it, and she's competing.  Want to have a conversation about whether that standard should be modified, as a person born with a vagina and really high testosterone levels (likely due to internal testicles, as can happen, naturally, in such cases)?  Again, have at it.  I'm good with whatever the reasonable consensus says.

I was told repeatedly by these people that "gender is easy, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina."  Is that no longer true?  Did they change the standard?  (Of course they did....because what's truly important is being outraged, all the time).

I agree with some of this - with a major reservation - why does she have to "meet a standard" because she is a woman? So what if she has some elevated testosterone levels? That's her natural advantage - good for her. Just like every guy in these Olympics hit the jackpot with the Genetic lottery, so did she. She has the parts, why make her change? It's not even a medically acceptable action. IE doctors things it's a bad thing.

Anyway, enough soap box. It's a complex thing - I suggest everyone take the time to educate themselves. This pod just popped up on my radar specifically about this topic:

 Theire Ep 1 focus is Christine Mboma, same situation (200 M runner).

[troph 24500]

Just now, Gene Parmesan said:

 If you’ve had balls are very likely to be athletically superior than those who don’t. Sorry yours didn’t give you a leg up. 

You are a fucking idiot. You know nothing about the topic but just like every other dipshit you have no problem spouting off about it. Go back under the rock you crawled out from. 

[Ted Lange 15975]

This latest dust up, so right wing went crazy over this boxer claiming she wasn’t a female.   Then it turns out she is in fact a female and was born a female.   That still isn’t good enough for most of them.  At this point I’m pretty sure they won’t be happy until we go back rot foxy boxing.  

[atomheartbevo 89304]

I’m convinced that Grimes, his daughter, Gene Cernan, and Neil Armstrong broke him

 

[Brisketexan 104239]

I’m convinced that Grimes, his daughter, Gene Cernan, and Neil Armstrong broke him
 

All he has to do is…not be an enormous hateful dick. He should just give it a try for a week or two, see how it feels.

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Seems like the classic money is nice but money alone doesn't make you happy.

Elon spent literally hours today hating on trans people and immigrants. Lots of hate in that man's heart.

[HenryJames 65852]

[Pato del Muerto 52239]

Can men have such a higher natural testosterone level as to not be allowed to compete against other men?  Or any other hormone?

[troph 24500]

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Can men have such a higher natural testosterone level as to not be allowed to compete against other men?  Or any other hormone?

We don’t police men’s bodies get the fuck outta here with that shit. 

[atomheartbevo 89304]

13 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Seems like the classic money is nice but money alone doesn't make you happy.

Elon spent literally hours today hating on trans people and immigrants. Lots of hate in that man's heart.

His hatred of immigrants is batshit insane, given that he is an immigrant, and according to his brother was an illegal immigrant  but even just him being an immigrant alone should make him sympathetic to others, but you can take the boy out of South Africa, but not the South Africa out of the boy.

https://qz.com/elon-musk-illegal-immigration-tesla-video-1851379406

Quote

Elon Musk has spent the better part of a year complaining about “illegal immigrants” who are “invading” the country. But an old video from 2013 resurfaced on Saturday that appears to show the billionaire admitting he was at one point building his small business in the country illegally, describing it as a “gray area.”

The video comes from an interview conducted by the Milken Institute in May 2013 featuring Elon Musk and his brother Kimbal Musk. The two men were describing their journey from where they grew up in South Africa to Canada and eventually to the United States.

Quote

The video shows Kimbal Musktalking about Zip2, the company Elon Musk founded in 1995, and the challenge of raising money in the 1990s. The two men were amazed that anyone would invest $3 million in their company.

Quote

“In fact, when they did fund us, they realized that we were illegal immigrants,” Kimball says in the video.

“Well, I mean...” Elon says.

“Yes, we were,” Kimbal replies.

“I’d say it was a gray area,” Elon insists as the crowd laughs.

“We were illegal immigrants...” Kimbal says, continuing his story about how they were sleeping in an office when raising money from venture capitalists.

 

[TwiceHorn 31087]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

He's actually the very thing he hates: He is simultaneously a bleeding vagina and a giant dick.

A morphadite.

Edited August 2 by TwiceHorn

[atomheartbevo 89304]

1 hour ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Seems like the classic money is nice but money alone doesn't make you happy.

Elon spent literally hours today hating on trans people and immigrants. Lots of hate in that man's heart.

I'd point out one other thing - Jeff Bezos is doing exactly what most of us on Surly would like to think that we'd be doing if we had that kind of money - partying, traveling, and doing exotic stuff.

World's richest man just spends his days raging at trans people and immigrants and trying to get likes from incels.  I wonder if the room he's in even has windows.  Or if he's pissed that Grimes dated a trans person after him.  And hell, she maybe banging an immigrant which is why he's so angry.

[Captain Ron 12771]

6 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'd point out one other thing - Jeff Bezos is doing exactly what most of us on Surly would like to think that we'd be doing if we had that kind of money - partying, traveling, and doing exotic stuff.

World's richest man just spends his days raging at trans people and immigrants and trying to get likes from incels.  I wonder if the room he's in even has windows.  Or if he's pissed that Grimes dated a trans person after him.  And hell, she maybe banging an immigrant which is why he's so angry.

Well they have a few kids and he is an immigrant, so …

[Js1 85009]

9 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Imane competed in Tokyo and lost before the medal rounds. I don’t remember anyone saying shit 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

20 hours ago, choripan said:

FWIW, I find it kind of hilarious the way extremes come together in the weirdest ways. Can't remember the theory, but it's something about how the far-left and fsr-right end up being similar.

In this case, it's hilarious to see Tesla dweebs call their cars "performance" cars when all the can do really well is go fast in a straight line, which makes them the modern equivalent of Boomer muscle car guys.

I know I'm probably irritating off a lot of people with that, but I find it hilarious.

The thing you're looking for is the "horseshoe theory."

[Chopper 17058]

11 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

 If you’ve had balls are very likely to be athletically superior than those who never did. Sorry yours didn’t give you a leg up. 

Do balls help for shooting? Because when a woman won an Olympics shooting contest, that's when they decided to have separate men and women shooting categories. That was 1996, I believe. Pussies like you couldn't handle losing to a woman. Just like the boxer yesterday couldn't handle blocking a punch to her face.

Does a higher testosterone level correlate with athletic prowess? 

Edited August 2 by Chopper

[Gene Parmesan 3970]

24 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Do balls help for shooting? Because when a woman won an Olympics shooting contest, that's when they decided to have separate men and women shooting categories. That was 1996, I believe. Pussies like you couldn't handle losing to a woman. Just like the boxer yesterday couldn't handle blocking a punch to her face.

Does a higher testosterone level correlate with athletic prowess? 

I have no problem with women competing against men, vice versa, or anything in between.  I didn't even offer an opinion on the boxer who is in a completely separate situation.  I simply offered the point of a competitive advantage between an AMAB and an AFAB in an athletic competition.  I have no problem if society chooses to ignore that advantage.  I don't fear some kind of chaos because the process to transition is rather difficult, and the amount of people that would do that for sports reasons would be incredibly insignificant.  

[Post Oak 20174]

Noooow they care about protecting women. 

[Chopper 17058]

 

[chainsaw 9815]

He's not going to beat the babyfur allegations

[pacman 7282]

Just elon doing more piece of shit things...

[fattyflattie 4636]

9 minutes ago, pacman said:

Just elon doing more piece of shit things...

Didn’t an outfit just go to prison for this like 6 months ago? 

[Guadaloopy 10890]

On 7/31/2024 at 10:44 PM, troph said:

Official in the F Elon F Tesla camp. Sucks they are good cars, probably going to get a F Elon sticker for my X. Not dumping it or selling it, but won’t buy another one. 

I ordered my sticker on Wednesday.

[Captain Ron 12771]

13 hours ago, HenryJames said:

 

You know what really isn't eing talked about here? Boxing isn't for everyone. To me the issue isn't Khelif, but the fact that the Italian boxer gave up seconds into her match because she just wasn't ready for it.

[Captain Ron 12771]

WHOOOPS

 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/technology/don-lemon-elon-musk-lawsuit.html?unlocked_article_code=1._00.HULB.a8p-kcUAZpRB&smid=url-share

[Brisketexan 104239]

If the report above about Elon's "voter registration" scheme is accurate, then yes, that sure as shit looks like a federal crime:

Quote

§20511. Criminal penalties

A person, including an election official, who in any election for Federal office-

(1) knowingly and willfully intimidates, threatens, or coerces, or attempts to intimidate, threaten, or coerce, any person for-

(A) registering to vote, or voting, or attempting to register or vote;

(B) urging or aiding any person to register to vote, to vote, or to attempt to register or vote; or

(C) exercising any right under this chapter; or

 

(2) knowingly and willfully deprives, defrauds, or attempts to deprive or defraud the residents of a State of a fair and impartially conducted election process, by-

(A) the procurement or submission of voter registration applications that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held; or

(B) the procurement, casting, or tabulation of ballots that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held,

There was indeed a prosecution for similar shenanigans in connection with the 2016 election.

Would it surprise anyone to find out that Elon is committing criminal acts of election fraud?  Yeah....I see absolutely nobody in the audience is surprised in the least.

[Celery Man 20832]

14 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Seems like the classic money is nice but money alone doesn't make you happy.

Elon spent literally hours today hating on trans people and immigrants. Lots of hate in that man's heart.

If I switched both bank accounts and father-daughter relationships with Musk I’d probably sit underneath a rocket.

[troph 24500]

I may end up regretting this post, but fuck it.

I have no problem with responsible, sensible, well thought out regulation of trans women in sports. I've stated that from the beginning. Some progressives in my life have expressed dissatisfaction with that. But the idea that the issue is simple or that there should be a complete ban is laughable.

I know some trans women (who are not competitive and not athletes) that say fuck it, just resign from it all to a complete ban, agree with those that want the complete ban and let's move on. Their reasoning is that there are bigger issues to address.  I say fuck that. They are all big issues. I will go to my grave believing the right to compete is as important of a fundamental human right as any other. I also think the innate need to compete as a hallmark of being human goes back to the beginning. All you have to do is look at some of the earliest depiction of human civilization to find humans competing in athletic events against each other. It's wired into us. and for those of us who do wish to compete, it's worthy of finding a way that - and this is the key - works for everyone.

The desire for an outright ban is based in prejudice and discrimination, pure and simple. Almost all of the people who advocate for a complete ban also advocate for a complete ban on transition before 18 years of age predestining trans women to a complete ban in athletics by fiat and by law.  I've even heard people talk about socialization as an advantage in athletics and that should also prevent trans women from competing with other women. That's absurd. Raise your girls to be as competitive as you can, it's a cut throat world out there. Even among AFAB women, those who have cultivated a competitive drive at the highest level are the ones that will win. Granted that's not a physical trait but I've heard it used many times. Again, absurd.

However, there are things that should prevent trans women from competing in women sports, namely time to complete their transition, and this is controversial - effectiveness of transition. Completion and effectiveness of transition cannot be a hard and fast rule at 1 year (NCAA rule). That's preposterous. The problem with Lia Thomas is she met the bright line test from the NCAA. The NCAA set that rule a while ago probably under pressure, probably without a lot of knowledge and certainly from the standpoint that they didn't want to be seen and didn't want to be discriminatory. But in the end, Lia Thomas hurt the cause in ways that have become nearly unrecoverable.

She was already an athlete and good enough to be a college athlete, she transitioned for 1 year and I think still trained. I don't think she had any surgery, if she did she would have undoubtedly had to stop training and she would not have been back in the pool competing within 12 months. Surgery has a tremendous recovery time and she wouldn't likely be cleared to jump in a pool for months, let alone train vigorously.  Point is, 1 year is definitely not enough time for nearly anyone except those transitioning really early, if even then. This may harm trans women who are staring at the athletic clock whether it be age or college eligibility, etc. but fairness is fairness, it has to work for all.

I think AFAB women should be protected from trans women who are in transition. Lia Thomas was still in transition, she had not completed transition. At age 36 I began my transition. I don't think I was finished for at least 4 years. But by the time I was 40 when I picked up the tennis racket, it was clear while athletic I was not a man playing women's tennis.  I have a coach who coaches D1 players from time to time when they are in town for vacation or the summer. He laughed out loud when I asked if I could compete with men at the same USTA rating I had.  I also play women who hit harder, run faster, and are mentally tougher than me. I think what a lot of men fail to realize is that there are some wickedly athletic and fiercely competitive women out there. This shows up in the number of men who think they could return a serve from a pro tennis player like Coco or Serena. Same probably would be the case for hitting a fast pitch softball off Canady. The list goes on.

My tennis record post-transition is mixed, as I gained experience and skill I got better, I won more. As I approached next level I was winning a lot, and no doubt some would say because I'm trans. That's complete bullshit. When I moved to the next level I got my ass kicked. Some of these women were 10+ years older than me, some 10+ years younger. I've lost 0-6 / 1-6 and I've won 6-0 / 6-1. My anecdotal story is only that, but it's indicative of 99% of trans women in sports, who already represent a tiny fraction of the athletes in women's sports.

But when it comes to participation and when it comes to winning at the highest levels, there is a scenario where trans women can win and should not be penalized and be told it's just because you're a man or just because you were a man or because of testosterone or whatever. And if we figure out how to measure effectiveness of transition, then I really believe we have a solution.

I have friends who were not sensitive to estrogen, even after the testosterone was removed, they did not shed muscle mass, they did not gain fat weight. Did you know there are at least 4 ways to take estrogen? and that doesn't take into account dosages. Some of my friends have had to cycle through those methods to find what works, and different dosages.  Some trans women have an underdeveloped sensitivity to testosterone (some have postulated it's one of the many factors in what causes a person to be trans) making estrogen take faster. The point being, transition is complex, it's not one size fits all and I think we need to take the time to ask two questions of trans women athletes - are you done with transition and was your transition effective?

The IOC and NCAA have no framework to determine how receptive a body is to hormones or other aspects of medical transition. And this is the controversial part - if your medical transition isn't taking, you shouldn't be able to compete. It sucks, it may not be fair, but it's not fair to others either. And by effectiveness of transition, I don't mean do you look hot, I mean did you shed the physical traits that would be akin to the doping East Germany swim team or not?  If you didn't, not sure it's fair to compete. 

What does that framework look like? I don't know. But I do believe it's doable.

I also think the standard should be heightened for sanctioned high school, college, pro and Olympic sports and events and can be relaxed for club, recreational leagues and play, especially where there are inherent levels so that competition is structurally organized by talent/skill level.

In the end, trans women and progressives need to be more understanding, but the latent and in some cases overt -isms run rampant on this issue as much as any other and for those of us who believe there is a way to get this done and who believe the right to compete is a fundamental human right, it's severely damaging.

I do believe reason, logic and sound judgment can be used here to create a system that is inherently fair to everyone, and I think the importance of athletic competition demands we do it. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we are at least decades away from having the will as a society to find that solution that works for everyone.

That deeply saddens me and is one of the most troubling aspects of living in this world as an (admittedly aging) trans-athlete.

Edited August 2 by troph

[troph 24500]

45 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I ordered my sticker on Wednesday.

ordered mine yesterday.

[gofuckyourself 8099]

1 hour ago, pacman said:

Just elon doing more piece of shit things...

Torbush.gif

Needs the full link:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/elon-musk-pac-voter-data-trump-harris.html

[Chopper 17058]

Which sticker did y'all order and why isn't your answer all of 'em? 

this one is my favorite

 

 

[Chopper 17058]

"Cumulative revenue" - if you don't understand why this is funny, I have a bridge to sell you

[troph 24500]

I got this one:

 

https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/NO-ELON-Round-Anti-Elon-Musk-Bumper-Sticker-Decal-For-Tesla-Owners-by-Nayabkhan/159202820.QK27K

 

Edited August 2 by troph

[troph 24500]

3 minutes ago, Chopper said:

"Cumulative revenue" - if you don't understand why this is funny, I have a bridge to sell you

I can top that, I've broken my cumulative revenue number for 12,045 days straight.

Edited August 2 by troph

[Pato del Muerto 52239]

1 hour ago, pacman said:

Just elon doing more piece of shit things...

I’d like to see ol’ Elon wriggle his way out of this one!

 

[Chopper 17058]

More of elon doing shit things https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughMuskSpam/comments/1ei3ht7/free_speech/

 

[Chopper 17058]

More of musk fanbois doing stupid things with their incel caminos

 

[Brisketexan 104239]

2 minutes ago, Chopper said:

More of musk fanbois doing stupid things with their incel caminos

 

And to be clear, this is the band of chucklefucks who Elon thinks are the beating heart of this country and should lead it.

We are hurtling at breakneck speed towards being the United States of Abject Idiocy, and the Supreme Idiot is at the wheel (or maybe he's turned it over to "self-driving idiot" function, who knows).

[Chopper 17058]

Linda Yac selling ads and attracting those big accounts

[Brisketexan 104239]

Just now, Chopper said:

Linda Yac selling ads and attracting those big accounts

Jesus.  How pathetic.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, you forgot to post the "after" pic. An oversight, I'm sure.

[Chopper 17058]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, you forgot to post the "after" pic. An oversight, I'm sure.

Crap, sorry. Better spoiler it.

Spoiler

 

[troph 24500]

10 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Crap, sorry. Better spoiler it.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

[Captainant 27250]

20 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Linda Yac selling ads and attracting those big accounts

That's genuinely a potential legal exposure risk for Xitter. There's been enough legislators getting deepfakes made out of them that I would not be surprised to see laws start to get passed regarding it

[Captainant 27250]

Speaking of legal exposure for muskrat:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-sued-by-family-motorcyclist-killed-autopilot-crash-2024-08-02/

Quote

The lawsuit claims the driver of the Model 3 was "tired" and "not in a condition to drive as an ordinarily prudent driver."

The complaint said the Autopilot sensors such as cameras "should have identified the hazard posed by Decedent’s motorcycle in its presence."

"A reasonably prudent driver, or adequate auto braking system, would have, and could have slowed or stopped without colliding with the motorcycle," the complaint said.

 

Tesla was not immediately available for comment.

The lawsuit adds to growing scrutiny of Tesla's driver assistant systems Autopilot and Full Self-Driving.

A Tesla Model S car was in "Full Self-Driving" mode when it hit and killed a 28-year-old motorcyclist in the Seattle area in April this year, police said this week.

 

[immamac 42400]

1 hour ago, troph said:

I may end up regretting this post, but fuck it.

I have no problem with responsible, sensible, well thought out regulation of trans women in sports. I've stated that from the beginning. Some progressives in my life have expressed dissatisfaction with that. But the idea that the issue is simple or that there should be a complete ban is laughable.

I know some trans women (who are not competitive and not athletes) that say fuck it, just resign from it all to a complete ban, agree with those that want the complete ban and let's move on. Their reasoning is that there are bigger issues to address.  I say fuck that. They are all big issues. I will go to my grave believing the right to compete is as important of a fundamental human right as any other. I also think the innate need to compete as a hallmark of being human goes back to the beginning. All you have to do is look at some of the earliest depiction of human civilization to find humans competing in athletic events against each other. It's wired into us. and for those of us who do wish to compete, it's worthy of finding a way that - and this is the key - works for everyone.

The desire for an outright ban is based in prejudice and discrimination, pure and simple. Almost all of the people who advocate for a complete ban also advocate for a complete ban on transition before 18 years of age predestining trans women to a complete ban in athletics by fiat and by law.  I've even heard people talk about socialization as an advantage in athletics and that should also prevent trans women from competing with other women. That's absurd. Raise your girls to be as competitive as you can, it's a cut throat world out there. Even among AFAB women, those who have cultivated a competitive drive at the highest level are the ones that will win. Granted that's not a physical trait but I've heard it used many times. Again, absurd.

However, there are things that should prevent trans women from competing in women sports, namely time to complete their transition, and this is controversial - effectiveness of transition. Completion and effectiveness of transition cannot be a hard and fast rule at 1 year (NCAA rule). That's preposterous. The problem with Lia Thomas is she met the bright line test from the NCAA. The NCAA set that rule a while ago probably under pressure, probably without a lot of knowledge and certainly from the standpoint that they didn't want to be seen and didn't want to be discriminatory. But in the end, Lia Thomas hurt the cause in ways that have become nearly unrecoverable.

She was already an athlete and good enough to be a college athlete, she transitioned for 1 year and I think still trained. I don't think she had any surgery, if she did she would have undoubtedly had to stop training and she would not have been back in the pool competing within 12 months. Surgery has a tremendous recovery time and she wouldn't likely be cleared to jump in a pool for months, let alone train vigorously.  Point is, 1 year is definitely not enough time for nearly anyone except those transitioning really early, if even then. This may harm trans women who are staring at the athletic clock whether it be age or college eligibility, etc. but fairness is fairness, it has to work for all.

I think AFAB women should be protected from trans women who are in transition. Lia Thomas was still in transition, she had not completed transition. At age 36 I began my transition. I don't think I was finished for at least 4 years. But by the time I was 40 when I picked up the tennis racket, it was clear while athletic I was not a man playing women's tennis.  I have a coach who coaches D1 players from time to time when they are in town for vacation or the summer. He laughed out loud when I asked if I could compete with men at the same USTA rating I had.  I also play women who hit harder, run faster, and are mentally tougher than me. I think what a lot of men fail to realize is that there are some wickedly athletic and fiercely competitive women out there. This shows up in the number of men who think they could return a serve from a pro tennis player like Coco or Serena. Same probably would be the case for hitting a fast pitch softball off Canady. The list goes on.

My tennis record post-transition is mixed, as I gained experience and skill I got better, I won more. As I approached next level I was winning a lot, and no doubt some would say because I'm trans. That's complete bullshit. When I moved to the next level I got my ass kicked. Some of these women were 10+ years older than me, some 10+ years younger. I've lost 0-6 / 1-6 and I've won 6-0 / 6-1. My anecdotal story is only that, but it's indicative of 99% of trans women in sports, who already represent a tiny fraction of the athletes in women's sports.

But when it comes to participation and when it comes to winning at the highest levels, there is a scenario where trans women can win and should not be penalized and be told it's just because you're a man or just because you were a man or because of testosterone or whatever. And if we figure out how to measure effectiveness of transition, then I really believe we have a solution.

I have friends who were not sensitive to estrogen, even after the testosterone was removed, they did not shed muscle mass, they did not gain fat weight. Did you know there are at least 4 ways to take estrogen? and that doesn't take into account dosages. Some of my friends have had to cycle through those methods to find what works, and different dosages.  Some trans women have an underdeveloped sensitivity to testosterone (some have postulated it's one of the many factors in what causes a person to be trans) making estrogen take faster. The point being, transition is complex, it's not one size fits all and I think we need to take the time to ask two questions of trans women athletes - are you done with transition and was your transition effective?

The IOC and NCAA have no framework to determine how receptive a body is to hormones or other aspects of medical transition. And this is the controversial part - if your medical transition isn't taking, you shouldn't be able to compete. It sucks, it may not be fair, but it's not fair to others either. And by effectiveness of transition, I don't mean do you look hot, I mean did you shed the physical traits that would be akin to the doping East Germany swim team or not?  If you didn't, not sure it's fair to compete. 

What does that framework look like? I don't know. But I do believe it's doable.

I also think the standard should be heightened for sanctioned high school, college, pro and Olympic sports and events and can be relaxed for club, recreational leagues and play, especially where there are inherent levels so that competition is structurally organized by talent/skill level.

In the end, trans women and progressives need to be more understanding, but the latent and in some cases overt -isms run rampant on this issue as much as any other and for those of us who believe there is a way to get this done and who believe the right to compete is a fundamental human right, it's severely damaging.

I do believe reason, logic and sound judgment can be used here to create a system that is inherently fair to everyone, and I think the importance of athletic competition demands we do it. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we are at least decades away from having the will as a society to find that solution that works for everyone.

That deeply saddens me and is one of the most troubling aspects of living in this world as an (admittedly aging) trans-athlete.

I mean an open division is less controversial and more unpopular because it categorically includes everyone and quantitatively removed women from almost all competition. 

This is the problem, it's that with no lines (except doping) which is not controversial it's obvious what happens. With lines it gets hard to draw them on non obvious things. 

[troph 24500]

21 minutes ago, immamac said:

I mean an open division is less controversial and more unpopular because it categorically includes everyone and quantitatively removed women from almost all competition. 

This is the problem, it's that with no lines (except doping) which is not controversial it's obvious what happens. With lines it gets hard to draw them on non obvious things. 

We humans have done harder things than figure this out for much less important matters. 

btw there is extreme bias here, trans folk as a general rule tend to operate as much in the shadows as we can. Being visible is either forced on us or only recently become a thing to do as a form of activism.

so the number of trans athletes cannot easily be known. And the only ones we see are the obvious ones that get whacked for winning - because their transition is either incomplete or ineffective making them effectively the same as a woman who has been doping.

the concept isn’t hard, the framework may be harder but again, we’ve done far more challenging things for much more trivial reasons.

[Guadaloopy 10890]

1 hour ago, Chopper said:

Which sticker did y'all order and why isn't your answer all of 'em? 

this one is my favorite

 

 

 

1 hour ago, troph said:

I got this one:

 

https://www.redbubble.com/i/sticker/NO-ELON-Round-Anti-Elon-Musk-Bumper-Sticker-Decal-For-Tesla-Owners-by-Nayabkhan/159202820.QK27K

 

Here’s mine: