Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?

[DDD Dad 14167]

3 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Tesla drivers are competing heavily with Dodge ram drivers for the #1 douche on the road title.

 

1 hour ago, MrBig said:

This is the only guy I’ve ever liked who drove a Dodge

 

37 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

That hurts a little, sir.

 

7 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Hey, I'm a god damn good driver dammit.

What about BMW drivers?  You know the old joke, what's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?  (The pricks are on the outside of a porcupine).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I drive a BMW.

[Guadaloopy 10903]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

A prerelease software that's about to get shut down for failing to report how many pedestrians it mows down, and a preproduction truck with gaps wider than Michael Strahan's teeth does not represent a released product to me ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

50 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Can you please point me to the source for this assertion?  Thanks.

 

31 minutes ago, Captainant said:

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/18/1073857310/tesla-autopilot-crash-charges

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/16/tesla-recalls-362758-vehicles-says-full-self-driving-beta-software-may-cause-crashes.html

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF

• Tesla is voluntarily recalling 362,758 vehicles and warns that its experimental driver-assistance software, marketed as Full Self-Driving Beta, may cause crashes.
• The recall notice was posted on the website of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Thursday.

None of the links that you provided support the assertion that you made - that Tesla's FSD beta software is about to get "shut down for failing to report how many pedestrians it mows down". 

The first link isn't even about FSD beta.  It's about an accident that occurred four years ago using the autopilot system. 

The second link lists NHTSA concerns over FSD behavior that have since been addressed through a recall that was fixed with OTA software updates.

 

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Musk and Tesla without weakening your criticism by ginning up hyperbolic bullshit.  

 

[MissingInAction 24765]

[NoName 16271]

Oopsie

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

1 hour ago, Guadaloopy said:

The second link lists NHTSA concerns over FSD behavior that have since been addressed through a recall that was fixed with OTA software updates..  

“Concerns” is very generous wording for a car that enters oncoming traffic on its own

---

 

February 15, 2023 NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 23V085000

Full Self-Driving Software May Cause Crash

FSD Beta software that allows a vehicle to exceed speed limits or travel through intersections in an unlawful or unpredictable manner increases the risk of a crash.

NHTSA Campaign Number: 23V085000

Manufacturer Tesla, Inc.

Components STEERING, ELECTRICAL SYSTEM

Potential Number of Units Affected 362,758

Summary

Tesla, Inc. (Tesla) is recalling certain 2016-2023 Model S, Model X, 2017-2023 Model 3, and 2020-2023 Model Y vehicles equipped with Full Self-Driving Beta (FSD Beta) software or pending installation.  The FSD Beta system may allow the vehicle to act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution. In addition, the system may respond insufficiently to changes in posted speed limits or not adequately account for the driver's adjustment of the vehicle's speed to exceed posted speed limits.

Remedy

Tesla will release an over-the-air (OTA) software update, free of charge.  Owner notification letters were mailed April 15, 2023.  Owners may contact Tesla customer service at 1-877-798-3752.  Tesla's number for this recall is SB-23-00-001.

[Guadaloopy 10903]

8 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

“Concerns” is very generous wording for a car that enters oncoming traffic on its own

"enters oncoming traffic on its own" ≠ "traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane"

This issues mostly occurred from right hand turn only lanes, so not into oncoming traffic.  When it occurred from the left turn only lane, the vehicle would stop and work its way back to the right.  It never drove into oncoming traffic. 

Again... plenty of legit reasons to criticize Musk/Tesla without making shit up.

 

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Quote

entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop

Are you legitimately arguing that entering an intersection without coming to a complete stop at a stop sign is not entering oncoming traffic? Seriously? Maybe you can post a meme to explain it?

[Biff Tannen 45477]

I will say as a Tesla driver since 2018, I've never once entertained the idea of using FSD because I knew the tech wasn't even close yet.  My wife doesn't even use the self-drive version we have currently.  It's great for highway driving, but only an idiot would think to use it (or FSD) in non-highway environments.

My biggest qualm about FSD as a concept is that I think EVERY car would need it to make it really feasible.  AI isn't anywhere near good enough to scan resumes for qualified applicants, let alone drive a car among a bunch of non-connected, human-driven cars.  Humans are dumb, panicky animals and you know it.

[Captainant 27311]

29 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

"enters oncoming traffic on its own" ≠ "traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane"

This issues mostly occurred from right hand turn only lanes, so not into oncoming traffic.  When it occurred from the left turn only lane, the vehicle would stop and work its way back to the right.  It never drove into oncoming traffic. 

Again... plenty of legit reasons to criticize Musk/Tesla without making shit up.

 

 

How about hitting emergency vehicles with concerning regularity?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-cars-crashes-emergency-vehicles/

I'm moreso shitting on musk's desire to beta test his products on unwilling 3rd parties, while charging a premium and insisting it's of the highest quality. Very strange defence of some indefensible actions, but you do you

[Guadaloopy 10903]

23 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Are you legitimately arguing that entering an intersection without coming to a complete stop at a stop sign is not entering oncoming traffic? Seriously? Maybe you can post a meme to explain it?

Based on user feedback, Tesla implemented a slight rolling stop feature in FSD.   The feedback was that FSD was too timid and waiting a full three seconds at stop signs.  Drivers behind FSD cars were getting pissed and honking at FSD cars that actually stopped completely at stop signs.   So Tesla implemented a feature that allowed very slight rolling stops when it was safe to do so.  NHTSA decided they did not like that.   That is what the NHTSA notice is talking about.  Not rolling into oncoming traffic.  

[DDD Dad 14167]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Hey, I'm a god damn good driver dammit.

[Guadaloopy 10903]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

How about hitting emergency vehicles with concerning regularity?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-cars-crashes-emergency-vehicles/

I'm moreso shitting on musk's desire to beta test his products on unwilling 3rd parties, while charging a premium and insisting it's of the highest quality. Very strange defence of some indefensible actions, but you do you

Big Auto has beta tested their shit on unwilling third parties for a century.

When a driver has their Chrysler on cruise control and barrels into stopped traffic, who’s to blame?  The inattentive driver.  
 

Look… I’m not here to defend Elon or Tesla.   
 

I just don’t like it when people make shit up and pass it off as settled fact.  
 

 

[Guadaloopy 10903]

34 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

It's great for highway driving, but only an idiot would think to use it (or FSD) in non-highway environments.

[Captainant 27311]

11 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Look… I’m not here to defend Elon or Tesla.

That's a strange thing to say after defending and whatabouting an oligarch testing beta software on unwilling 3rd parties that went on to kill those 3rd parties. 

11 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

When a driver has their Chrysler on cruise control and barrels into stopped traffic, who’s to blame?  The inattentive driver.  

You are really straining to overlook your mans comments and fucking branding on his "full self drive autopilot" and conflating it with cruise control. That's some really inspired intellectual dishonesty you've got going, elmo is lucky to have so many useful idiots defending him online and propping up TSLA

Edited November 17, 2023 by Captainant

[royiv 9131]

7 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Look… I’m not here to defend Elon or Tesla.   
 

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

22 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

Based on user feedback, Tesla implemented a slight rolling stop feature in FSD.   The feedback was that FSD was too timid and waiting a full three seconds at stop signs.  Drivers behind FSD cars were getting pissed and honking at FSD cars that actually stopped completely at stop signs.   So Tesla implemented a feature that allowed very slight rolling stops when it was safe to do so.  NHTSA decided they did not like that.   That is what the NHTSA notice is talking about.  Not rolling into oncoming traffic.  

[texasdago 7550]

[atomheartbevo 89362]

3 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

What about BMW drivers?  You know the old joke, what's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?  (The pricks are on the outside of a porcupine).

I drive a BMW.

Depends.  When you bought your BMW, did you opt for the turn signal package?

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

I will say as a Tesla driver since 2018, I've never once entertained the idea of using FSD because I knew the tech wasn't even close yet.  My wife doesn't even use the self-drive version we have currently.  It's great for highway driving, but only an idiot would think to use it (or FSD) in non-highway environments.

My biggest qualm about FSD as a concept is that I think EVERY car would need it to make it really feasible.

And I think it needs to be based on radars.  I know Musk thinks he can do it on the cheap with cameras, but there’s a reason why radars work better.

[Captainant 27311]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

And I think it needs to be based on radars.  I know Musk thinks he can do it on the cheap with cameras, but there’s a reason why radars work better.

You actually need several suites of sensors fused together. Radar is easily foiled and confused by water - be it rain or fog, lidar doesn't have a wide enough gaze to see everything, and visual lacks the depth and definite dimensions of the other avenues. 

I got to sit in on a great talk on true autonomous drive at an ML and robotics conference a year ago, and the sheer volume of data that they were collecting to reduce the uncertainty in their driving agent model was absurd. There's a full sized indy racing car league that used these techniques, they stream track days on twitch sometimes and it's WILD

https://www.indyautonomouschallenge.com/

Edit: oh yeah and they do head to head racing with those autonomous cars, both totally independent from each other and using only their onboard sensors and compute. At 160mph. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Captainant

[956 Worldwide 34314]

2 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

Based on user feedback, Tesla implemented a slight rolling stop feature in FSD.   The feedback was that FSD was too timid and waiting a full three seconds at stop signs.  Drivers behind FSD cars were getting pissed and honking at FSD cars that actually stopped completely at stop signs.   So Tesla implemented a feature that allowed very slight rolling stops when it was safe to do so.  NHTSA decided they did not like that.   That is what the NHTSA notice is talking about.  Not rolling into oncoming traffic.  

LOL, this fucking company programmed its cars to break traffic laws. 

[Guadaloopy 10903]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

LOL, this fucking company programmed its cars to break traffic laws. 

It programmed its cars to drive like actual people do. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

9 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

It programmed its cars to drive like actual people do. 

Other FSD features:

- Tailgates when the car in front is going under the limit, brake checks when getting tailgated

- Uses blinker like 73 percent of the time 

- Speeds up so car entering freeway can’t merge in front of them 

You do realize that programming a car to break the law because honking is not the defense you think it is? 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

11 hours ago, NoName said:

is this bad?

Tesla Model 3 last place in german MOT/vehicle inspection report

 

German car inspections are FANATICAL. You never see hoopties or jalopies over there, even old ones, because they fail inspection and you can’t drive them. Even old cars are all clean and pristine. 
 

Tesla’s build quality has long been shit, and that’s what this is measuring.  
 

Side discussion, but I think a lot of German cars get bad reliability scores and expensive repairs in the US because the makers expect Americans to follow Germans’ maniacal maintenance regimes. 

[Blotto 23418]

6 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

FSD Beta has been in the wild for two years.  Cybertruck delivers production models at the end of this month.  They may or may not be shitty products at this point, but they have evolved beyond the vaporware classification.

Have they? When people forked over their  one time fee or enrolled in a subscription years ago, were they sold a product with an understanding that FSD would be capped at level 2 FSD?  Because that's my understanding of where tesla is today

I havent seen a Tesla contract, nor do I care enough to find one online, but I've seen plenty of Elon's comments in the past indicating that you would be able to take a nap in your car due to Tesla FSD tech. The FSD they are shipping today does not meet that standard, and I be shocked if they get there within another 5 years. If I had to guess, Tesla lawyers probably dumped all  kinds of disclaimers about full autonomous driving into the sales contracts to keep Tesla from being sued into oblivion for breach of contract. What Tesla is selling/shipping today is not anywhere close to "fully self-driving" and requires active driver supervision, so yeah thats still vaporware in my mind.

 

[royiv 9131]

One would have to be a fool to pay for FSD given Tesla's long history of over promise and under deliver.

[Biff Tannen 45477]

56 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

- Uses blinker like 73 percent of the time 

Known as an eventual left.  

[956 Worldwide 34314]

The whole rolling stop episode is just so emblematic of Musk, along with the defense of it. Musk just programmed his cars to break traffic regulations in a little ticky-tack way, when it’s ok to do so and other people are as well.  Don’t know why those kill-joys at the NHSTA came in to bust up the party and say you can’t program robot cars to roll through stop signs, lots of people do it. 

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

16 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I will say as a Tesla driver since 2018, I've never once entertained the idea of using FSD because I knew the tech wasn't even close yet.  My wife doesn't even use the self-drive version we have currently.  It's great for highway driving, but only an idiot would think to use it (or FSD) in non-highway environments.

My biggest qualm about FSD as a concept is that I think EVERY car would need it to make it really feasible.  AI isn't anywhere near good enough to scan resumes for qualified applicants, let alone drive a car among a bunch of non-connected, human-driven cars.  Humans are dumb, panicky animals and you know it.

 

Every car would need it, and it would have to be controlled by an single AI that controlled all cars, or at least all cars in a certain area.

 

 

 

[MissingInAction 24765]

14 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Other FSD features:

- Tailgates when the car in front is going under the limit, brake checks when getting tailgated

- Uses blinker like 73 percent of the time 

- Speeds up so car entering freeway can’t merge in front of them 

You do realize that programming a car to break the law because honking is not the defense you think it is? 

Ejects cigarette butts at random intervals.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13537]

14 hours ago, Guadaloopy said:

It programmed its cars to drive like actual people do. 

Sweet!

 

[Guadaloopy 10903]

13 hours ago, Blotto said:

Have they? When people forked over their  one time fee or enrolled in a subscription years ago, were they sold a product with an understanding that FSD would be capped at level 2 FSD?  Because that's my understanding of where tesla is today

13 hours ago, Blotto said:

What Tesla is selling/shipping today is not anywhere close to "fully self-driving" and requires active driver supervision, so yeah thats still vaporware in my mind.

As someone who purchased FSD three years ago and someone who has used the product in beta for nearly two years, I can speak to these issues.

1) It was always communicated to people who actually purchased the FSD package that you were purchasing access to software in development and that you would receive incremental delivery of new capabilities, culminating in delivery of a fully certified level 5 autonomous driving system at some point in the future.  There was never a specific timeline for delivery of the final capability.  You were buying the future capability now at a price significantly lower than the price you would pay for the product after it achieves level 5 certification. 

2) I purchased FSD in September 2020 when I ordered my 2021 Model 3.  From the day it was delivered, my car had additional capabilities that were not available to non-FSD Teslas: auto-lane change on highway, navigation on highway, and smart summon.  A year after I took delivery, I was accepted into the beta program and received "navigate on city streets" in FSD beta.  At that point, I could enter a destination and my car could actually drive itself to the destination.  Sure, I still had to pay attention and intervene from time to time, but it was a 90% solution.  The product has continued a steady path of improvement since then.  In the grand scheme of things, and certainly compared to what any other auto-maker offers to consumers, what Tesla has delivered is pretty fucking impressive.

 

There is still a lot of work to do until it reaches level 5, but it's objectively not vaporware.

 

 

 

[texasdago 7550]

Wow... we found someone who actually bought it?!

[Gene Parmesan 3992]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

Every car would need it, and it would have to be controlled by an single AI that controlled all cars, or at least all cars in a certain area.

 

 

 

Even if the technology was fully developed tomorrow, and every new car manufactured from that point on had it.  It would still be a decades getting all the non equipped cars off the road.

[Chopper 17126]

11 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Even if the technology was fully developed tomorrow, and every new car manufactured from that point on had it.  It would still be a decades getting all the non equipped cars off the road.

You'd also have to find a way to stop cameras from being impacted by "rare" things like glare, rain and fog - at least if "fsd" is going to run just through cameras. I believe @Guadaloopy has posted before about how Tesla disabled the radar and ultrasonics on his vehicle one day out of the blue. Still it's interesting that he apparently remains a true believer.

Tesla wanted to save time and money on FSD so they started writing the software code only for cameras. Along with that move they disabled radar and ultrasonics in cars that had already been equipped with them (because people "only use sight to drive" (which LOL) and they stopped adding those electronics to new vehicles, as well. I also recall it was basically on a whim/logic fail of Muskovy.

[royiv 9131]

54 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

As someone who purchased FSD three years ago and someone who has used the product in beta for nearly two years, I can speak to these issues.

1) It was always communicated to people who actually purchased the FSD package that you were purchasing access to software in development and that you would receive incremental delivery of new capabilities, culminating in delivery of a fully certified level 5 autonomous driving system at some point in the future.  There was never a specific timeline for delivery of the final capability.  You were buying the future capability now at a price significantly lower than the price you would pay for the product after it achieves level 5 certification. 

2) I purchased FSD in September 2020 when I ordered my 2021 Model 3.  From the day it was delivered, my car had additional capabilities that were not available to non-FSD Teslas: auto-lane change on highway, navigation on highway, and smart summon.  A year after I took delivery, I was accepted into the beta program and received "navigate on city streets" in FSD beta.  At that point, I could enter a destination and my car could actually drive itself to the destination.  Sure, I still had to pay attention and intervene from time to time, but it was a 90% solution.  The product has continued a steady path of improvement since then.  In the grand scheme of things, and certainly compared to what any other auto-maker offers to consumers, what Tesla has delivered is pretty fucking impressive.

 

There is still a lot of work to do until it reaches level 5, but it's objectively not vaporware.

 

 

 

A fool and his money....

[Guadaloopy 10903]

1 minute ago, Chopper said:

Still it's interesting that he apparently remains a true believer.

I'm not a true believer, just acknowledging what has been accomplished thus far.  Tesla may or may not get this over the goal line, but no one can dispute that they have moved the ball significantly down the field towards autonomous vehicles being an every day reality. 

Even if their vision only + AI strategy ends up failing, they've taken it really far, and what they have learned will no doubt contribute to the ultimate solution.  It has been a path worth exploring.

The ultimate goal in removing radar (utrasonic sensors still exist and only contribute to close quarter maneuvering like parking) was to reduce the cost of an autonomous system - not simply to improve profitability, but to improve affordability and accessibility of the system.  What good is an autonomous driving system that is cost-prohibitive to the average consumer?

 

 

[royiv 9131]

4 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I'm not a true believer, just acknowledging what has been accomplished thus far.  Tesla may or may not get this over the goal line, but no one can dispute that they have moved the ball significantly down the field towards autonomous vehicles being an every day reality. 

Even if their vision only + AI strategy ends up failing, they've taken it really far, and what they have learned will no doubt contribute to the ultimate solution.  It has been a path worth exploring.

The ultimate goal in removing radar (utrasonic sensors still exist and only contribute to close quarter maneuvering like parking) was to reduce the cost of an autonomous system - not simply to improve profitability, but to improve affordability and accessibility of the system.  What good is an autonomous driving system that is cost-prohibitive to the average consumer?

 

 

$15k for an option that has repeatedly not lived up to Elon's promises seems pretty cost prohibitive to the average consumer, but congrats on paying to be a beta tester.

[Guadaloopy 10903]

6 minutes ago, royiv said:

A fool and his money....

Sure... but I bet I'm not the only poster on this board who has taken an $8K flyer on an investment.  I paid $8K in 2020 for a system that could potentially turn that car into a source of passive income as a robotaxi once I'm done using it for my own transportation.  Jury's still out on that.

Not to mention that I do in fact get some benefit and actual use from the investment, even if it doesn't ultimately pay off as hoped.  Plus, it's fun to use, and I enjoy being a part of something that will be a positive contribution to our future.  

 

[Guadaloopy 10903]

3 minutes ago, royiv said:

$15k for an option that has repeatedly not lived up to Elon's promises seems pretty cost prohibitive to the average consumer, but congrats on paying to be a beta tester.

Wasn't $15K when I bought it.  It went up to $15K after FSD beta was released.  Considering that FSD transfers with the vehicle and is considered in trade-in value, I've actually done OK with the investment if I choose to sell it.

[Captainant 27311]

10 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

I paid $8K in 2020 for a system that could potentially turn that car into a source of passive income as a robotaxi once I'm done using it for my own transportation.

I have beachfront property in Lubbock you may be interested in

[Lurch 5919]

Wasn't $15K when I bought it.  It went up to $15K after FSD beta was released.  Considering that FSD transfers with the vehicle and is considered in trade-in value, I've actually done OK with the investment if I choose to sell it.

Yeah? What was your purchase price + FSD? What’s the current resale value of your car?

[Guadaloopy 10903]

6 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Yeah? What was your purchase price + FSD? What’s the current resale value of your car?

Paid $55K and KBB is currently $35K (avg).  Without FSD, same vehicle KBB is $27K.

[Guadaloopy 10903]

13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I have beachfront property in Lubbock you may be interested in

You could have a producing gold claim in Lubbock and I would not be interested in it.

[MissingInAction 24765]

[Chopper 17126]

24 minutes ago, Guadaloopy said:

 What good is an autonomous driving system that is cost-prohibitive to the average consumer?

To put it another way, why not experiment with the lives of FSD users and other drivers on the road if nobody's forcing you to do otherwise? I've observed that none of the autonomous taxis under development rely on camera only. Also its a certainty that Muskovy knows cameras are not currently capable of powering a FSD and he has zero idea when or, indeed, if it will ever get there. And really that's the best spin available for Tesla's FSD. Also notable is that the dude who ran Tesla's FSD program when Musketamine made the decision to downgrade the hardware quit the company a year later and that every single year, over and over, the nazi cock gobbler proclaims in aggy like fashion that next year will be his year for FSD.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Every car would need it, and it would have to be controlled by an single AI that controlled all cars, or at least all cars in a certain area.

And every car on the road would need to be maintained and inspected to a degree that we don't do here (maybe in Germany).

[Captainant 27311]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

And every car on the road would need to be maintained and inspected to a degree that we don't do here (maybe in Germany).

In Texas? Where we just got rid of the inspection requirement for road vehicles starting in 2025?

[cactusflinthead 27593]

 

[Brisketexan 104465]

1 hour ago, Guadaloopy said:

Tesla may or may not get this over the goal line, but no one can dispute that they have moved the ball significantly down the field towards autonomous vehicles being an every day reality. 

See, this is part of the mythology that just baffles me.  Self-driving vehicles is not a Tesla idea, a major Tesla advancement, or anything of the sort.  It is, instead, a "transportation industry concept" that pre-dates Tesla trying to implement it, and Tesla is just a fish in a very large school of fish swimming in the same general direction.  FFS, I remember a LONG time ago, talking with an acquaintance of ours who was working on tech for the military to implement self-driving tech for transport convoys and the like.

Mythologizing Tesla as "the leader" or the "chief innovator" or anything like that tells me one thing: that you drank the kool-aid. The whole fucking 32 oz tumbler of it.

Musk is revolutionary at precisely two things: manipulating existing systems (mostly financial), and self-promotion.  Congratulations.  You just bought in to some "As Seen on TV!" bullshit.