Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?

[Brisketexan 104596]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Switching from Delaware to Texas probably costs a lot of money and probably saves you no money, but I'm not a finance guru

There are a lot of reasons that many large Texas-based enterprises are incorporated in Delaware instead of Texas.  Elon will ignore all of those reasons, because of his fee-fees and his ego.  Just a starter pack on why companies choose Delaware (there's a lot more):

Quote

Have you ever wondered why so many companies incorporate in Delaware? Delaware has established a reputation around the world as the best and most business-friendly state in which to incorporate. Delaware's corporation laws and statues are used to model business laws in other states.

More than 65 percent of all Fortune 500 companies and more than half of all U.S. publicly-traded companies are incorporated in the state of Delaware, and more startups are incorporating in Delaware every day.

Benefits of Incorporating in Delaware:

Delaware Corporate Law

One of the main reasons why companies incorporate in Delaware is the legal and liability protection of established corporate laws. Delaware's well-established and business-friendly legal framework is designed to provide a clear and flexible environment for businesses to operate. These protections are simply incomparable to what is offered by any other state in the nation, which makes it the Incorporation Capital of the World.

The Delaware Court of Chancery is the oldest business court in America, uses judges instead of juries (which speeds up legal proceedings considerably) and maintains the most advanced and up-to-date case law, which corporate lawyers in Delaware rely on and refer to. With experienced judges who specialize in corporate law cases, Delaware companies can expect faster and more informed decisions on legal matters surrounding their businesses. With more predictable results Delaware LLCs and corporations owners/shareholders will have decreased liability and litigation.

Delaware Corporate Taxes

Another reason why companies incorporate in Delaware is the incomparable tax savings. Some of the key corporate tax benefits of incorporating in Delaware include:

- For companies operating outside of Delaware, there isn't any state income tax. This can save a lot of money for companies that are incorporated in Delaware, but not conducting business within its borders.

- There isn't an inheritance tax on stock held by non-Delaware residents. This means that if the owner of a Delaware company passes away, inherited stock won't be taxed if the owner lives outside of the Delaware.

- Delaware does not have a state sales tax on intangible personal property (such as royalty payments); and shares of stock owned by non-resident aliens are not subject to Delaware taxes.

In addition, Delaware corporations not operating in the state of Delaware do not need to acquire a business license in Delaware.

 

[wildcat09 29237]

Texas did just recently create its own business courts. Texas corporate law is already pretty close in substance to Delaware corporate law so I would expect that much of Delaware's caselaw will over time essentially be incorporated into Texas law by the business courts, though its judges are directly appointed by the governor so I'm sure Abbott can stack it with cronies who would give political favorites like Musk preferential treatment.

 

[Brisketexan 104596]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

though its judges are directly appointed by the governor so I'm sure Abbott can stack it with cronies who would give political favorites like Musk preferential treatment.

 

And you have definitely captured the chief reason to incorporate here: if you are the kind of person that Abbott will fellate and suck up to (they still won't love you, Greg - nobody will), then that's an advantage.  Because those courts are built to do one thing: be the governor's personal court, beholden to him and his orders.

Exactly the kind of authoritarian state that Elon supports and dreams of.  You know, Elon, that noted "free speech absolutist" who just so happens to support authoritarianism.

[ROFL BOX 6647]

[Reynolds Woodcock 4669]

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

The vast majority approved a deal that everyone thought was based on unattainable milestones. Those milestones were achieved. Anyone holding shares over the timeframe the milestones were effected profited significantly. Someone that held 9 shares sued. What a world. 
 

 

You've said this a few times, but it isn't really true (or at least not entirely true). Certainly the shareholders thought this to be the case, because that is what they were told in the proxy. And I'm just guessing the street thought so as well, although I certainly haven't kept up with that. But, management's own internal projections showed multiple of the milestones being achieved (which they were, on time), and from an accounting perspective the Board determined several of the milestones to be in the 70% band of probability.   

All of that aside - and regardless of the "right" outcome - this case really came down to the entire fairness standard of judicial review (which to me (an M&A lawyer, not a litigator), seems to have been correctly applied). Once you are in that realm, it's tough to win, particularly with the bad facts Elon and the Board created.   

[wild_turkey 3152]

It’s not Elon’s money either. It’s Tesla’s money, and if a person owns TSLA stock, they have skin in the game a might have a small problem with paying the CEO $55B, almost 10% of TSLA’s market cap.

[Anastasis 23394]

21 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

You've said this a few times, but it isn't really true (or at least not entirely true). Certainly the shareholders thought this to be the case, because that is what they were told in the proxy. And I'm just guessing the street thought so as well, although I certainly haven't kept up with that. But, management's own internal projections showed multiple of the milestones being achieved (which they were, on time), and from an accounting perspective the Board determined several of the milestones to be in the 70% band of probability.   

All of that aside - and regardless of the "right" outcome - this case really came down to the entire fairness standard of judicial review (which to me (an M&A lawyer, not a litigator), seems to have been correctly applied). Once you are in that realm, it's tough to win, particularly with the bad facts Elon and the Board created.   

I certainly haven’t looked at the boards projections, but I clearly remember the reactions on CNBC. Do you know the details of which milestones were determined to have a reasonable probability of hitting versus those that did not and how the comp would look under those different scenarios? 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4669]

48 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I certainly haven’t looked at the boards projections, but I clearly remember the reactions on CNBC. Do you know the details of which milestones were determined to have a reasonable probability of hitting versus those that did not and how the comp would look under those different scenarios? 

I only know what the opinion said (one example is below, which is projection-related (not accounting related)).

Spoiler

The one-year projections underlying the operating plan forecasted $27.4B in revenue and $4.3B in EBITDA by late 2018, and thus predicted achievement of three milestones in 2018 alone. The longer three-year projections underlying that plan reflected that by 2019 and 2020, Tesla would achieve seven and eleven operational milestones, respectively. The Proxy did not disclose this. 

. . . 

After Tesla issued the Proxy, but before the stockholder vote, Ahuja presented the Board with a three-year operating plan (the “March 2018 Projections”) . . . The March 2018 Projections were more pessimistic than previous projections but still predicted achievement of one revenue and two adjusted EBITDA milestones by March 31, 2019, and further two revenue and four adjusted EBITDA milestones by the end of 2020.442 As discussed below, Tesla would issue a supplemental disclosure with this information, but not until after the stockholder vote.

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19149]

Adjusted EBITDA = total bullshit

[Incredulity 11564]

6 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

It’s not Elon’s money either. It’s Tesla’s money, and if a person owns TSLA stock, they have skin in the game a might have a small problem with paying the CEO $55B, almost 10% of TSLA’s market cap.

without judgement on if he is worth it or if it’s “fair”

They didn’t pay him cash.  They issued him the potential to earn options to buy shares of the company with the incentive for him to grow the companies valuation.  Further he can’t liquidate those shares and get 55B, it’s unknown how much less, probably significant if he was selling quickly.

[Captain Ron 12798]

Swisher and Galloway discuss the Elon compensation package lawsuit today on their show. Highly recommended, you can find it around 15:40 on the above podcast.

The gist of their points is really this: The board is supposed to be fiduciaries of Tesla, not Elon's rubber stamp machine. The issue isn't the compensation, but the fact that they basically were doing what Elon wanted and acted in his best interests, not Tesla's. And the result was losing this case.

When you take that, combined with the fact that in getting support of over 70% of shareholders to support the deal, the board had to misrepresent their role in negotiations (IE they lied to shareholders), it really became easy for the court to strike down his compensation.

Other people that understand this more than I do have noted that for the court to do this, and people can't readily find another case of them striking down CEO pay, they had to really find something bad - in the ruling, the court states:

Quote

The Compensation Committee and Musk were not on different sides. They did not acknowledge the existence of a conflict. It was a cooperative and collaborative process.

Basically, who brought this case, and the milestones used to set Musk's pay (which I have seen argued were not as unattainable as shareholders were lead to believe) don't mater - what matters is how tied together the board and Musk were and in this case - way too tight.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4669]

12 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Swisher and Galloway discuss the Elon compensation package lawsuit today on their show. Highly recommended, you can find it around 15:40 on the above podcast.

The gist of their points is really this: The board is supposed to be fiduciaries of Tesla, not Elon's rubber stamp machine. The issue isn't the compensation, but the fact that they basically were doing what Elon wanted and acted in his best interests, not Tesla's. And the result was losing this case.

When you take that, combined with the fact that in getting support of over 70% of shareholders to support the deal, the board had to misrepresent their role in negotiations (IE they lied to shareholders), it really became easy for the court to strike down his compensation.

Other people that understand this more than I do have noted that for the court to do this, and people can't readily find another case of them striking down CEO pay, they had to really find something bad - in the ruling, the court states:

Basically, who brought this case, and the milestones used to set Musk's pay (which I have seen argued were not as unattainable as shareholders were lead to believe) don't mater - what matters is how tied together the board and Musk were and in this case - way too tight.

One thing is for sure, this case is going to make a shit ton of money for law firms (thanks!), because this ruling is red fucking meat for the plaintiff’s bar. 

[Ted Lange 16041]

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

An illegal immigrant complaining about illegal immigration. How American 

[956 Worldwide 34430]

Your new Tesla Cybertruck’s cool wheel covers will shred tire sidewalls.  Better just take them off.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-aero-wheel-covers-are-chewing-up-the-1851218721 

Quote

The YouTube channel for Tesla upgrade and accessory brand T Sportline investigated this phenomenon, and found significant sidewall damage on the tires of a Cybertruck that only has “a couple thousand miles on it” according to the host Brian Reese. Most of the aero wheel cover is made of plastic, but the ends of the spokes that extend over the tire sidewall are made of a rubberized material, so at least it’s not a hard plastic part that’s scraping away at the sidewall — but even rubberizing these wheel cover extensions doesn’t prevent damage. It’s honestly shocking that this defect was not identified in pre-production vehicle testing, but Tesla is known to utilize its customers as beta testers.

 

[Clintonaldo 2571]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Your new Tesla Cybertruck’s cool wheel covers will shred tire sidewalls.  Better just take them off.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-aero-wheel-covers-are-chewing-up-the-1851218721 

 

Pussy ass woke tires. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

In the future dystopian hellscape, Cybertuck is impervious to arrows provided arrows hit the stainless steel part of the truck. It is vulnerable to a kid throwing a rock through the windshield or Cybertuck attacking itself with its dank ass wheel covers. 

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

11 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

 

So full on white supremacist replacement theory. 

[Chopper 17154]

1 hour ago, Pig Bellmont said:

So full on white supremacist replacement theory. 

Yes and he's a stupid fucking cow for not understanding the basic premise that "legal status" is not the same as citizenship.

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

25 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Yes and he's a stupid fucking cow for not understanding the basic premise that "legal status" is not the same as citizenship.

It’s the first step!

 

somehow he doesn’t seem to see or acknowledge the very documented instances of one side using state law to suppress the votes of the other side in order to, ya know, create a permanent majority- a one party state. 

[Captain Ron 12798]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

It’s the first step!

 

somehow he doesn’t seem to see or acknowledge the very documented instances of one side using state law to suppress the votes of the other side in order to, ya know, create a permanent majority- a one party state. 

Its only cheating when the other side does it. 

[Js1 85104]

4 hours ago, Chopper said:

Yes and he's a stupid fucking cow for not understanding the basic premise that "legal status" is not the same as citizenship.

BILLIONS of non citizens already vote. Duh 

[atomheartbevo 89416]

4 hours ago, Chopper said:

Yes and he's a stupid fucking cow for not understanding the basic premise that "legal status" is not the same as citizenship.

He still doesn’t understand something as basic as the First Amendment, even though he’s owned Twitter for over a year now.  He still doesn’t seem to  understand what the customer and the product are when it comes to social media.

Then again, the fact that it’s still Twitter should speak volumes about everything he does.

[Captain Ron 12798]

Another day, another Tesla recall of basically their entire fleet of cars. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/business/tesla-recall-us-vehicles.html

Quote

Tesla is recalling about 2.2 million vehicles because the font on the warning lights panel was too small to comply with safety standards, U.S. regulators said on Friday.

What’s amazing is that this isn’t they got something wrong, but they didn’t follow the rules that govern vehicles. 

[Captain Ron 12798]

9 hours ago, Chopper said:

Yes and he's a stupid fucking cow for not understanding the basic premise that "legal status" is not the same as citizenship.

 

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

He still doesn’t understand something as basic as the First Amendment, even though he’s owned Twitter for over a year now.  He still doesn’t seem to  understand what the customer and the product are when it comes to social media.

Then again, the fact that it’s still Twitter should speak volumes about everything he does.

Hes being obtuse. And yes Andy, it is deliberate. 

[safe sex 11678]

3 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

Another day, another Tesla recall of basically their entire fleet of cars. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/business/tesla-recall-us-vehicles.html

What’s amazing is that this isn’t they got something wrong, but they didn’t follow the rules that govern vehicles. 

Large safety alerts don't look cool

[ROFL BOX 6647]

Large safety alerts don't look cool

Especially when it isn't large enough.

[Nivek 16857]

13 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

29 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Large safety alerts don't look cool

Especially when it isn't large enough.

That's what she said.

[atomheartbevo 89416]

Kim Dotcom fighting with Elmo, this timeline, I tell you

 

[Schulz2.0 28768]

 

[HenryJames 65889]

7 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Kim Dotcom fighting with Elmo, this timeline, I tell you

Sort of.

 

[HenryJames 65889]

Azealia Banks seems like she doesn’t suck.

 

 

Edited February 4 by HenryJames

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I'm thinking of floating a new conspiracy theory that Peter Thiel secretly persuaded Elon to be the first recipient of that brain implant and has been the marionettist behind the keyboard and strings making more and more outlandish statements in an effort to hasten his vision of a Middle Class Mordor. Can't quite figure out the grift angle though. Needs to be workshopped.

[hornian 5205]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:52 PM, Ted Lange said:

 

What a race-baiting fear monger. Only citizens can vote. Legal status means green card, which does not confer status. It's just a legal residency. Even if you say "but their kids will be citizens" - Biden won't be alive in 18+ years when those kids are first eligible to vote, much less running for anything. 

[MrBig 5284]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Azealia Banks seems like she doesn’t suck.

 

 

She knows him personally and used to be friends with Grimes. The pic and link below is from 2018. 

The billionaire house hostage saga of Azealia Banks, Elon Musk, and Grimes, explained

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/16/17692700/azealia-banks-elon-musk-grimes-explained

[Nivek 16857]

I'm thinking of floating a new conspiracy theory that Peter Thiel secretly persuaded Elon to be the first recipient of that brain implant and has been the marionettist behind the keyboard and strings making more and more outlandish statements in an effort to hasten his vision of a Middle Class Mordor. Can't quite figure out the grift angle though. Needs to be workshopped.

Volume.

[atomheartbevo 89416]

14 minutes ago, hornian said:

What a race-baiting fear monger

You have to remember that Grimes left him for a trans person, and one of his kids is trans.  He may not be a boomer, but he’s got the mentality of one. He probably believes that you can just turn somebody gay or whatever.

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

You have to remember that Grimes left him for a trans person, and one of his kids is trans.  He may not be a boomer, but he’s got the mentality of one. He probably believes that you can just turn somebody gay or whatever.

grimes left him because he couldn't handle his drugs.

she introduced him to the hard stuff particurlarly meth. i mean it's obvious right? 

[atomheartbevo 89416]

14 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

she introduced him to the hard stuff particurlarly meth. i mean it's obvious right? 

I would have to see evidence of that, like taking a drawing that he made in the 80s when he was 12 and turning it into a production Tesla vehicle.

[Parliament 14133]

Well this all escalated quickly.

Edited February 4 by Parliament

[Gatorubet 30089]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:03 AM, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

In the future dystopian hellscape, Cybertuck is impervious to arrows provided arrows hit the stainless steel part of the truck. It is vulnerable to a kid throwing a rock through the windshield or Cybertuck attacking itself with its dank ass wheel covers. 

That was before the wandering bands of Antifa hunter-gatherer cannibals learned they could just throw buckets of salt water on the aluminum frame and watch it dissolve in corrosion and pick the driver out of the shell…like polar bears pick the delicious Inuit nugget center out of an igloo. 

[NoName 16293]

 

[Chopper 17154]

11 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

This essay is insightful. Elon Musk and the Power of the Bro.

"The actually relevant point is that doing bad things together serves two useful purposes for criminal and quasi-criminal enterprises. First - it enables you to identify and screen out the people who have real moral qualms before you have to rely on them to cooperate in whatever quasi-legal thing it is that you want them to do. Second, it gives you and them a stake in mutually assured silence. There is a third thing too: it plausibly corrupts people, rewiring their moral codes so that things that they might once have identified as wrong come to seem like ordinary practice. Most people don’t want to seem evil to themselves; equally, most people don’t want to feel that they are suckers or losers. If you can get people to feel as though they are a sucker or loser if they don’t participate, you’re half-way towards pulling them in."

 

[atomheartbevo 89416]

DOD wants control over its sensitive missions.  I wonder why.

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/spacex-dod-has-requested-taking-over-starship-individual-missions

Quote

The Pentagon has approached SpaceX about potentially taking over Starship for sensitive and potentially dangerous missions as a government-owned, government-operated asset instead of contracting the company to launch payloads.

 

[Homercles 10205]

Yesterday saw, what I assume, is the same CT that drove by me a few weeks ago in Brushy Creek.  At a quick glance it already has a similar ‘patina’ to my solo stove after a few uses.  Given how much rain we’ve had it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s legit rusting already.  

[Captainant 27447]

Just fuckin insane that a $100k+ vehicle didn't come with a clearcoat on top of its RAW STEEL body

[JMFP 1117]

I mean, to be honest did I sleep through a lot of my industrial materials class back in the day (c'mon it was at 07:30). But I do know that a decent stainless steel should be ok in weather. Yeah it might get some kind of patina but it shouldn't rust.

 

*What I think I know* about shitty stainless is that it has a lot more iron in it and is susceptible to rusting. And one clue to figuring out if your piece of stainless is shitty is if it is magnetic. 

 

 

[Homercles 10205]

Reading a thread about it, common worry is iron rail dust from transport rusting when it gets wet.   Or idiots using windex on it, the ammonia corrodes the chromium over time.  
 

So I dunno, could have been a particularly epic orange sunset reflecting off it (was evening) and I’m just not used to SS cars.  It just caught my eye as ‘that looks wrong’

[atomheartbevo 89416]

7 minutes ago, JMFP said:

What I think I know* about shitty stainless is that it has a lot more iron in it and is susceptible to rusting. And one clue to figuring out if your piece of stainless is shitty is if it is magnetic. 

It’s no wonder Tesla wouldn’t release the exact specs on the steel.  I don’t know how this will play out, but it feels like the customers are beta testing the product.

[JMFP 1117]

3 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It’s no wonder Tesla wouldn’t release the exact specs on the steel.  I don’t know how this will play out, but it feels like the customers are beta testing the product.

I was just thinking that I bet Tesla purposely left out rust coverage in their warranty because "it's stainless steel and there is no need to even mention it."