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Elon Musk: Officially a fraud and piece of shit. Official or unofficial war criminal?


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1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I’ll get in trouble trying to make football analogies but i think it’s more like understanding Jon Gruden as a Super Bowl champion head coach.

Framing this 446 page conversation as hurr durr billionaire bad is reductive on your part but do you.

Page 445 has a glib response of 'billionaire defended' following a back and forth on the history of a company, arguing merits of contribution in business building, but nothing about ethical merit of being a billionaire itself.  Do your reading.

 

18 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So is it your position that elmos management of Twitter has caused it to grow large and generate wealth? Or are you arguing that since elmo has successfully manipulated the value TSLA, everything else he does is defacto correct?

My position is when I disagree with nivek, celery man, and other people, i believe some/most of the time they are arguing in earnest.  Whereas you exist merely as a dingleberry on the very anus of this website, never to be taken seriously, but only to be mocked.

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18 hours ago, Nivek said:


So do you know the real story of Tesla and the 2 founders? One was an electrical engineer who raced electric cars. He asked a custom electric race car company to make production vehicles and they declined. He did some work for them and then figured he could make a go of it and brought in another guy. Elon sued to have himself listed as a founder of the firm when he was just an investor. Once it got rolling he started branding it as his idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard

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I guess - this particular thread in this conversation didn’t fall out of a coconut tree. I’m not deeply familiar with the history of either Tesla or SpaceX but I’m not sure you’re making much more of a substantive argument that Elon being around and nominally in charge through the growth = Elon is responsible for the success than the folks who are arguing some version of the opposite. I would guess one might argue that he never cared about the business success of Twitter, but he’s tanked that by 75% and I don’t think I’m looking through shit colored glasses when I see his meddling as being very harmful to Tesla. I could be wrong. To whatever degree he was a genius and business visionary 10 years ago his story now is proof that people can change.

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6 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I guess - this particular thread in this conversation didn’t fall out of a coconut tree. I’m not deeply familiar with the history of either Tesla or SpaceX but I’m not sure you’re making much more of a substantive argument that Elon being around and nominally in charge through the growth = Elon is responsible for the success than the folks who are arguing some version of the opposite. I would guess one might argue that he never cared about the business success of Twitter, but he’s tanked that by 75% and I don’t think I’m looking through shit colored glasses when I see his meddling as being very harmful to Tesla. I could be wrong. To whatever degree he was a genius and business visionary 10 years ago his story now is proof that people can change.

One step further - I would not argue that Tesla is a successful company. Sure it's grown a whole shitton and it has a big market cap, but the company is a paper tiger. They make dogshit quality vehicles that automatically kill first responders, and run beta autopilot software on public roads without any sort of oversight. 

But elmo has been able to pump its value using the same strategies as crypto scams - namely FOMO and straight up lying about what it can do - and has been able to convert that high paper worth into real money with tax-free loans. So apparently that makes him a good businessman or something?

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13 hours ago, 52-80 said:

What part is cherry picked?

The fact that Musk was the 4th person in Tesla, joining the now-250 months old company 6 months after it was founded, and as the majority owner and actual chair, had authority over the company?

When you say the company was “established” -- when Eberhard was kicked out -- it had produced 0 cars, the Model S hadnt been designed, 3 years before IPO, and would go on to accumulate $6 billion dollars of net losses over the next 13 years….

…and you want crown the first 2 guys for “having the plan” 13 years and 1,000,000 vehicles sold later?

That is an amazingly bad understanding of business and history. 

 

 

It’s just that easy? You just build a cheaper one after the other - and it will be no surprise to have a profitable business? When the entire public market signaled (through its equity) for 9 straights years that it didnt believe the company would get anywhere, and the company was on the verge of bankruptcy, you just knew success was no surprise?

The revisionism is amazing.

I'm going to guess that because Elmo is not a real engineer, he gins up wild-ass ideas while in a K-hole or something, some of which are feasible and many of which are not.

Guessed example:  wouldn't it be cool if we could retrieve rockets/stages without destroying them or splashing them down in water?  Yeah, Elmo cool idea, not particularly original, I'm guessing.  Probably not a priority idea at NASA for various reasons, nor at other private aerospace because they can sell more rockets if they're single-use.

The real brain geniuses at SpaceX were able to so far at least somewhat implement it with what seems to be reasonable success.

Another example:  FSD and robotaxis.  Well, the real brain geniuses at Tesla are not able to implement that with reasonable success, likely in no small part to Elmo's capricious management and employment practices.

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Just now, Captainant said:

One step further - I would not argue that Tesla is a successful company. Sure it's grown a whole shitton and it has a big market cap, but the company is a paper tiger. They make dogshit quality vehicles that automatically kill first responders, and run beta autopilot software on public roads without any sort of oversight. 

But elmo has been able to pump its value using the same strategies as crypto scams - namely FOMO and straight up lying about what it can do - and has been able to convert that high paper worth into real money with tax-free loans. So apparently that makes him a good businessman or something?

Let’s not forget that the success of Tesla and SpaceX, not to mention his obscene wealth, has been built on the backs of American taxpayers.

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11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm going to guess that because Elmo is not a real engineer, he gins up wild-ass ideas while in a K-hole or something, some of which are feasible and many of which are not.

Guessed example:  wouldn't it be cool if we could retrieve rockets/stages without destroying them or splashing them down in water?  Yeah, Elmo cool idea, not particularly original, I'm guessing.  Probably not a priority idea at NASA for various reasons, nor at other private aerospace because they can sell more rockets if they're single-use.

The real brain geniuses at SpaceX were able to so far at least somewhat implement it with what seems to be reasonable success.

Another example:  FSD and robotaxis.  Well, the real brain geniuses at Tesla are not able to implement that with reasonable success, likely in no small part to Elmo's capricious management and employment practices.

Elmo is just Miles Bron from Glass Onion. He didn't build or make any of the things he's best known for. He just paid for them. He's an idiot posing as a genius. For all of his wildly successful and groundbreaking ideas, there's a mountain of broken promises and bullshit that's been swept under the rug. Nevermind that he's just straight up dumping wastewater into our fucking waterways.

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5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

If you want to credit Elon for Tesla's growth you kind of have to acknowledge that much of that growth was only possible because of pretty rampant fraud by Elon.  

And gigantic subsidies.

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59 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Many people now dislike him/them and are disinclined to buy his/their products. Many people also now like him and more inclined to buy his/their products. Net-net, it's much better for business to have him stayed silent and let products compete on their merits.

That's not controversial, and also not been the argument.

The argument was a very reductive marginalization of his impact to a company he stewarded through 99.5% of its life as person #4, in favor of guys #1-2.  It's like giving Dana Bible credit for Sark's team. And then the very juvenile and populist rhetoric of why 'billionaire bad', when we've merely been discussing the prior topic. 

People should admit when they cant argue the facts in the conversation, that their issue is with the conversation about facts itself.  (Which is kinda weird because why would you click into this topic...) 

 

I don't think anyone is discounting his impact on Tesla through force of money, will and manipulation. You saying things like:

The fact that Musk was the 4th person in Tesla, joining the now-250 months old company 6 months after it was founded, and as the majority owner and actual chair, had authority over the company?

It really feels like you don't really know/understand the history of the company so it makes this statement seem disingenuous. Yeah, he did a lot after this, because he was able to use his money and loading up the board with his people to wrest the company away from the real founders and then sue them into oblivion to make them go away.

This is a great crash course in the history of Elon Musk and Tesla, I recommend it:

But even with all his resources, you can see that Tesla needed a lot of help. If not a for subsidies, they go under.

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20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Elmo is just Miles Bron from Glass Onion. He didn't build or make any of the things he's best known for. He just paid for them. He's an idiot posing as a genius. For all of his wildly successful and groundbreaking ideas, there's a mountain of broken promises and bullshit that's been swept under the rug. Nevermind that he's just straight up dumping wastewater into our fucking waterways.

Yep:

Quote

The relatively miniscule $11,876 figure due for environmental violations—based mainly around the company's construction operations—includes failing to control erosion and sediment to minimize the discharge of pollutants; failing to secure areas after "earth-disturbing" activities; discharging concrete truck wash-out water without authorization; and discharging industrial stormwater without a permit. 

It's estimated that Musk makes about $656 per second, so the fine should be paid off well before you finish reading the next paragraph. 

 

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42 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm going to guess that because Elmo is not a real engineer, he gins up wild-ass ideas while in a K-hole or something, some of which are feasible and many of which are not.

Guessed example:  wouldn't it be cool if we could retrieve rockets/stages without destroying them or splashing them down in water?  Yeah, Elmo cool idea, not particularly original, I'm guessing.  Probably not a priority idea at NASA for various reasons, nor at other private aerospace because they can sell more rockets if they're single-use.

The real brain geniuses at SpaceX were able to so far at least somewhat implement it with what seems to be reasonable success.

Another example:  FSD and robotaxis.  Well, the real brain geniuses at Tesla are not able to implement that with reasonable success, likely in no small part to Elmo's capricious management and employment practices.

 

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54 minutes ago, Captainant said:

One step further - I would not argue that Tesla is a successful company. Sure it's grown a whole shitton and it has a big market cap, but the company is a paper tiger. They make dogshit quality vehicles that automatically kill first responders, and run beta autopilot software on public roads without any sort of oversight. 

But elmo has been able to pump its value using the same strategies as crypto scams - namely FOMO and straight up lying about what it can do - and has been able to convert that high paper worth into real money with tax-free loans. So apparently that makes him a good businessman or something?

Elmo is such a sharp businessman that he's completely tanked Tesla by alienating the very group of Americans were are/were most likely to purchase the cars that he makes.

a7dHAw.gif

Then again, buying Twitter and driving it into the side of a cliff from an economic standpoint will be pretty genius if Trump wins next month and Elmo starts getting involved in American politics in an official capacity. Oh, the things they'll do ...

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19 hours ago, partytimesausage said:

Space x is wild.  Tesla is an amazing company.  Neuralink is pretty fucking cool.  And Elon is a douche.  All these things are allowed to be true at the same time.  I can filter through the elon douchiness and still see the generational possibilities of these companies.  I wish the man would divest out of them so other people could embrace the spectacle of snatching a skyscaper sized booster out of the air. 

I have no issue separating the accomplishments from the man and still giving Elon his credit. Could another primary investor/CEO have achieved what his companies have with the same subsidies, founders, and engineering personnel? Maybe. Who knows. But he did and, as CEO, he gets the lion's share of the credit. That's just how it works.

But this discussion began when someone posted a tweet about how amazing it is for something with no formal engineering background to be spearheading what SpaceX is doing. I think Elon has made it perfectly clear by this point that he's much dumber than any of us could have ever guessed. It's fair to assume that he has minimal, if any, involvement on the technical/engineering side of his companies.

I still think he's been a net positive for society. Though, holy shit, that gap is closing and, if he gets his way in November and becomes a defacto cabinet member, it will likely slam shut.

It's just disappointing that one of the richest, most powerful, influential human beings in the history of modern civilization has decided that internet troll is his true calling.*

*this also might be a net positive for society, seeing the most powerful among us still fall prey to social media brain rot. Hopefully it's been a wake up call to some.

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11 hours ago, 52-80 said:

What part is cherry picked?

The fact that Musk was the 4th person in Tesla, joining the now-250 months old company 6 months after it was founded, and as the majority owner and actual chair, had authority over the company?

When you say the company was “established” -- when Eberhard was kicked out -- it had produced 0 cars, the Model S hadnt been designed, 3 years before IPO, and would go on to accumulate $6 billion dollars of net losses over the next 13 years….

…and you want crown the first 2 guys for “having the plan” 13 years and 1,000,000 vehicles sold later?

That is an amazingly bad understanding of business and history. 

 

 

It’s just that easy? You just build a cheaper one after the other - and it will be no surprise to have a profitable business? When the entire public market signaled (through its equity) for 9 straights years that it didnt believe the company would get anywhere, and the company was on the verge of bankruptcy, you just knew success was no surprise?

The revisionism is amazing.

I think you are under some delusion that I was going to write an exhausting evaluation of the Tesla Corp complete with insider information and references.  I am not.   But what I can do as a layperson outsider, is make observations and use judgement.   An electrical engineer and inventor whose hobby was racing electric vehicles founded the company with his former business partner.   His focus was not on reinventing the wheel, but to use technology that largely existed and leverage his own skill set to develop a car that could be street legal and sporty and electric.   Musk joined on as an early seed investor and helped with the Series funding for sure.  He definitely helped make the company what it is through funding it.  But is Musk providing some unique value here?  Is this the first time a company has been funded before?  No.  Does he have prior manufacturing experience?  Racing? Automotive?  The fact that the company is now 250 months on, after it was founded, is irrelevant.  He is not the founder nor was it his idea.  He just latched on to something someone else did which is a pattern for him in his most successful ventures.  

The fact that they kicked out the guy the same year they sold their first models doesn't mean there weren't plans for the future.  I am not really sure how you operate, but some of us operated in a current sphere while working on the next phase of development.  This is not unusual in manufacturing as well as other sectors.  In one former role of mine,  we were working on developing techniques and software for the next phase of operations while we trained people on something that could be made obsolete -  this was a smallish private company.  And while this might come as a surprise to you, the investors of that firm were not in the room with us talking about Bequay's method for 3 component geophone calibration in free space or finite difference modeling details to be worked out.  

You keep harping on the fact they ran off the founder just before the first model was produced seems to make me question your understanding of business and design.  Unless you think Musk sat down in 2008, put pen to paper and came up with a car <6 months before selling them (which curiously matches the actual founder's original stated plan)  and the other founders were just chasing their tail for the previous ~4 years in spite of their backgrounds for bringing products to market and prior expertise on the subjects.  Or maybe you think Drori was the one who designed the car and got the old GM/Toyota plant all going at once.  Well then maybe we can claim the first car was on the founders but the second is all Elon.  Is it?  The first car was proof of concept, it lost money and was expected to lose money.  Unless you think one can mass produce ~200 cars and ever break even even though you just bought a factory that was used to produce thousands of cars week?

This brings me to my next point, business having net losses is not really something all that unusual as they get going.  The fact that you talk about this as evidence is what might make some question your understanding of business while you point fingers at others.   There are kind of fundamental aspects to manufacturing of products that you seem to be overlooking and ignoring.  Economies of scale, I believe is the terminology for spreading costs amongst more products which can then allow for profits to be generated.  So yeah, I do think they had an idea of how much it would cost them to build and mass produce their first serious production vehicles, at scale (which was Ebenhard's goal in the first place) with a profit in mind, and with about $450 million of US government loans helping to fund it.  

As I have mentioned, Musk did a job, he showed up at the right time, and leveraged his skills/assets/connection to help develop the company from a financial aspect, and he branded himself as a founder, genius, and tried to champion trends of the time.  I admit, at first I thought he might be doing something good for humanity and I originally thought he was the founder (I didn't care to look it up).   Now I see him for what he really is.  He used massive assets that he had to create massive wealth for himself by piggybacking on the works of others but then trying to take credit for it.   But his character couldn't be concealed by the PR firms, and he has come across as a bit of a scumbag.   His hubris created a stupid truck that cannot do truck things.  His management of twitter has made it largely unusable for some people (no, I do not care to see random porn or elevated racism, misinformation, disinformation, and xenophobia that are all but unavoidable).   The success of Tesla is from the hardworking engineers, designers, manufacturers, supply chain managers, software writers, and the scientists that helped invent what is put into production there and of course the founders.  The money guys allowed it to happen, but they didn't make it happen.   I cannot imagine any other company operating with a part-time executive who spends much of his day rallying for fascism, popping pills, and syphoning off resources from one company for another.   That leads me to believe that his role as a leader at Tesla is mostly symbolic, and that the real management is handled by others, while he just gets in the way and fucks things up from time to time.      

Lastly, the public's hesitation to invest during the first 9 years was limited due to the fact that they didn't go public until 7 years after their founding.   So this is just a ridiculous statement by you.   Plus you are trying to twist what I stated, when I am not an officer of the company, of course I did not have access to their internal documents.  So yeah, when I say it is fucking obvious they are successful after having 50% margins, this is entirely after the fact and I have never stated otherwise.  But I imagine the folks who did have access to this information sure as shit knew it would work when they had the math available.    

So tell me how I am wrong or if anything I said was dishonest or a spin.  

 

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