Academic Laundering/Fraud (I should start my own Journal...)

[Incredulity 11657]

47 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

as someone with a couple of those completely worthless bleeding heart liberal arts degrees

No one has said they are worthless.  Many have said if you got them in the last 15 years they are worth less than the price paid.  And it’s getting worse by the year.

[Samson's Wig 3191]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

No one has said they are worthless.  Many have said if you got them in the last 15 years they are worth less than the price paid.  And it’s getting worse by the year.

But we've also been told in this very thread that the cost of education isn't going up.  What gives?   

[Incredulity 11657]

Just now, Samson's Wig said:

But we've also been told in this very thread that the cost of education isn't going up.  What gives?   

Whoever said that is sniffing fucking glue.

[Dahobbs 17527]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

1. The govt grants flows more easily into UoP, because it has no admissions standards.  You know this - because you literally said they targeted those students.  Interesting how you pivoted from being generous with literal interpretations to basically arguing on semantics.

2. It doesnt matter for the terminal outcome: school would eventually fail, on its merit.  It matters for the path: it would have failed much sooner, had the spout been drier.  Do you want to argue against the distorted effects of 'free' money?

3. I didn't suggest for-profit is how universities should be run.  I saw the hackneyed 'durrr business bad' softball lofted up and I'll swing at it everytime.  (Even you wouldn't deny the bloat in the academic ecosystem and that elements of business' "ruthlessness" would actually be positive).  I'm unabashedly pro-capitalism because I've lived outside that system and seen how well capitalism works for me. (sucks if it dont for anybody else).

Really, the existence of UoP neither proves 1 thing or another.  With or without it, schools like Our Lady of the Lake or Concordia wouldn't suck any less.  Atleast Phoenix gave everyone a athletic stadium for a few years....

1. Your comment said "The school was kept alive longer than it deserved due to easy money -- grants from the government -- with no barrier to enrollment."

I read that as "easy money" had no barrier to enrollment because the clause "with no barrier to enrollment" was next to and seemingly modifying "easy money." 

2. Again, the argument that a less than credible for-profit entity lasted longer than it should because it was able to take advantage of its students and the government isn't a particularly compelling argument that for-profitness is good for accountability. I agree that easy access to money can distort markets. 

3. You're right. You didn't suggest it. You outright stated it. 

Original post: "What is the fascination with making things that are not supposed to be profit-driven businesses (universities, the government) function like businesses?"

Your response: "Because the profit-driven mechanism of businesses requires being competitive and accountable."

Edited February 8 by Dahobbs

[Mole 4330]

Sources of academic fraud that I see from my small corner of academia:

1. For-profit institutions

2. The shocking number of folks in administrative roles calling themselves Dr. when their doctorate comes for a school whose campus is a post office box in  Biloxi, Mississippi.

3. Those moronic ChatGPT generated essays from my students that turn everything into a discussion of sustainability and income inequality and read like they were trained on the dumbest parts of Reddit.

[52-80 19147]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

3. You're right. You didn't suggest it. You outright stated it. 

Original post: "What is the fascination with making things that are not supposed to be profit-driven businesses (universities, the government) function like businesses?"

Your response: "Because the profit-driven mechanism of businesses requires being competitive and accountable."

Play the whole tape. 

newdoc: schools are unaccountable and dont stand the scrutiny of a business

question: why should everything be like a business 

answer: businesses have aspects that are good, eg desperation for survivabilty. 

then comes the chorus of the NPC about business bad. companies hosting vocational training is good, actually. well-resourced companies funding academic institutions towards mutually beneficial areas of research, and fast-tracking employment into said resourceful companies is an even bigger net good. 

denigrating anything corporate-adjacent because apparently being Big Business is itself a taint, smells like the kind of luxury ideas middle class children concoct when they thing it’ll get them big points on reddit. 

[Incredulity 11657]

14 minutes ago, Mole said:

3. Those moronic ChatGPT generated essays from my students that turn everything into a discussion of sustainability and income inequality and read like they were trained on the dumbest parts of Reddit.

What are the consequences for this at your school?  Just out of curiosity?

[Mole 4330]

17 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

What are the consequences for this at your school?  Just out of curiosity?

It depends on how much the assignment is worth and the student’s record. Usually, a first offense is a zero on the assignment and some training. If they have some history of cheating, it progresses to being withdrawn from the class with a failing grade or expulsion.

I’ve come to respect our worst writers on campus — at least I know they’re failing honestly.

[Incredulity 11657]

1 minute ago, Mole said:

I’ve come to respect our worst writers on campus — at least I know they’re failing honestly.

I can relate to this tangentially.

 In terms of managing people,  I have come to really appreciate the people who show up everyday and get most of the task right and don’t cause a lot of drama.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

8 hours ago, 52-80 said:

The father owns a company…that publishes a journal…that claims to be legitimate (they themselves described it as so)…wherein some 70% of the content is authored is authored by him and/or his son…and 90% if you include the editorial board (who are UTa colleagues). 
 

And you dont think thats fraudulent? Or at the least hugely unethical for people who hold academic positions in public universities?

 

You can read every article yourself. Heres one authored by the editor in chief. 
https://isctj.com/index.php/isctj/article/view/285

Heres another from the editor and the Joneses

https://isctj.com/index.php/isctj/article/view/285
 

Another great one below, must be from a friend

It depends on how it's represented.  If they're representing that it's peer-reviewed publication by the type of journal Laxtonto mentions, that's a problem, but apparently easily discovered.

If it's just some sort of vanity platform for their work, or a vain (both meanings) attempt to make some money/reach the interested public, then that's not fraudulent, but may be something else.

[Dahobbs 17527]

52 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Play the whole tape. 

newdoc: schools are unaccountable and dont stand the scrutiny of a business

question: why should everything be like a business 

answer: businesses have aspects that are good, eg desperation for survivabilty. 

then comes the chorus of the NPC about business bad. companies hosting vocational training is good, actually. well-resourced companies funding academic institutions towards mutually beneficial areas of research, and fast-tracking employment into said resourceful companies is an even bigger net good. 

denigrating anything corporate-adjacent because apparently being Big Business is itself a taint, smells like the kind of luxury ideas middle class children concoct when they thing it’ll get them big points on reddit. 

So... I was right. You stated it. You then got triggered, but that doesn't change the fact you made the original statement. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

No one has said they are worthless.  Many have said if you got them in the last 15 years they are worth less than the price paid.  And it’s getting worse by the year.

I don't always agree with your takes but this is a reasonable assessment right here.

This next point is going to chafe some people, but women who enter the teaching profession where wages can vary really need to crunch the numbers before they select an institution of higher education. I'm not in that field, but if I were advising a young person who was interested, that is something that bears merit. The PSLF (Public Service Loan Forgiveness) plan had a lot of snafus but I actually thought it had the right idea towards helping both the borrower and the communities it was designed to benefit.

[Neonmoon 38129]

12 hours ago, huge said:

Is this another reason that college tuition has increased at 10x inflation?  

No. The reason is the government unleashed easy money with education loans, and the piggies are gorging themselves at the trough. Schools will continue to suck as much easy money from the government as they can until the spigot is turned off. Schools build new buildings, create new departments, hire new teachers, all to attract more of that easy money. If the rich Prince shows up to my resort looking to spend money, I’m going to find ways to increase the bill until the Prince runs out of money. 

[huge 3793]

55 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

No. The reason is the government unleashed easy money with education loans, and the piggies are gorging themselves at the trough. Schools will continue to suck as much easy money from the government as they can until the spigot is turned off. Schools build new buildings, create new departments, hire new teachers, all to attract more of that easy money. If the rich Prince shows up to my resort looking to spend money, I’m going to find ways to increase the bill until the Prince runs out of money. 

So who is the winner in this scenario?

More midlevel staff jobs in Uni?

[Neonmoon 38129]

18 minutes ago, huge said:

So who is the winner in this scenario?

More midlevel staff jobs in Uni?

Bloated universities are the winner. Everyone else loses. 

[52-80 19147]

10 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

So... I was right. You stated it. You then got triggered, but that doesn't change the fact you made the original statement. 

Yeah.  Sure.  All universities should IPO and be governed by a shareholder proxy voting system, was truly the argument I surreptitiously advanced.  Go with that, little buddy

[TwiceHorn 31440]

10 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

No. The reason is the government unleashed easy money with education loans, and the piggies are gorging themselves at the trough. Schools will continue to suck as much easy money from the government as they can until the spigot is turned off. Schools build new buildings, create new departments, hire new teachers, all to attract more of that easy money. If the rich Prince shows up to my resort looking to spend money, I’m going to find ways to increase the bill until the Prince runs out of money. 

Question.  Student loans have been around for much longer than they have been a problem.

Was there a somewhat recent loosening of lending standards?  

Because the other problem, probably the bigger one, is the withdrawal of support of state universities by states and the deregulation of tuition that occurred in most places in the early aughts.  And that let tuition spiral upward across the board, to be met with loan money.

 

[Dahobbs 17527]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Yeah.  Sure.  All universities should IPO and be governed by a shareholder proxy voting system, was truly the argument I surreptitiously advanced.  Go with that, little buddy

I never read your posts as arguing specifically for a corporate governance structure. The only argument advanced was that universities should be run like for-profit businesses. And there was nothing surreptitious about it. That was your direct contention. 

[Pancho 44717]

11 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

. Schools build new buildings, create new departments, hire new teachers, all to attract more of that easy money. If the rich Prince shows up to my resort looking to spend money, I’m going to find ways to increase the bill until the Prince runs out of money. 

 

Yeah, this just isn’t happening. I’m not sure if you’re in higher ed or not or where you’re getting your information from. Colleges/universities (2 year and 4 year) are building new buildings because a lot of buildings are just too outdated. With technology increases, some of the older buildings can’t handle what is needed for students, profs, and just general educating. 

As far as creating new departments, that just isn’t happening really. Sure, there may be new degrees and certificates for more STEM and tech programs (and community colleges are expanding Workforce programs and seeing a boost with Nursing programs) but to think colleges/universities are just creating new programs out of the blue is ignorance and incorrect. In fact, most programs are now being asked to justify their existence and why they should stay. That’s where higher ed is right now. I’m a Dean, and I’m looking at cutting 3 programs by Fall 2025 because the data just isn’t there that these are viable programs for the college and our students want them. 

New faculty aren’t being hired unless there are enrollment increases. More faculty are being told if enrollment doesn’t pick up (regardless of if you have tenure or not), your job may be in jeopardy.

As I’ve stated on this website many times, tuition increase is directly related to less funding coming from states and increase in infrastructure, mostly IT and stuff like the light and water bills. 

If you got rid of let’s say 1/4th of your administrators on college campuses, the fucking tuition isn’t going down by the thousands. It will largely stay the same. I’m not sure where the bros are getting this idea that tuition increase is because of administrators making 100-125k. Not only that, but administrators are leaving higher ed at a rapid rate and some colleges/universities are having trouble filling those positions. That has not resulted in a tuition decrease because the impact of an administrator’s salary on tuition is minimal at best.

10 hours ago, huge said:

So who is the winner in this scenario?

More midlevel staff jobs in Uni?

Mid-level staff/admin is interesting. A lot of those jobs are being cut. (For example, I have an associate dean and we are just questioning what is the purpose of that position and should it be eliminated). Colleges are finding it hard to justify some mid-level staff. Moreover, they are having trouble filling those positions because a.) the pay and b.) the job isn’t WFH. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Question.  Student loans have been around for much longer than they have been a problem.

Was there a somewhat recent loosening of lending standards?  

Because the other problem, probably the bigger one, is the withdrawal of support of state universities by states and the deregulation of tuition that occurred in most places in the early aughts.  And that let tuition spiral upward across the board, to be met with loan money.

 

That’s definitely a factor. 

The Bennet Hypothesis has been around a while and there’s tons of studies showing likely correlation between easy money and tuition increases. 

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bennett_Hypothesis_Paper_Final-1.pdf

But to your point, these loan have been around since 1965. I don’t why it took colleges until the 90s to start juicing things up, but maybe it has to do with the private v public lending battles discussed here. Who knows 

https://www.newamerica.org/education-policy/topics/higher-education-funding-and-financial-aid/federal-student-aid/federal-student-loans/federal-student-loan-history/

[Dahobbs 17527]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

That’s definitely a factor. 

The Bennet Hypothesis has been around a while and there’s tons of studies showing likely correlation between easy money and tuition increases. 

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bennett_Hypothesis_Paper_Final-1.pdf

But to your point, these loan have been around since 1965. I don’t why it took colleges until the 90s to start juicing things up, but maybe it has to do with the private v public lending battles discussed here. Who knows 

https://www.newamerica.org/education-policy/topics/higher-education-funding-and-financial-aid/federal-student-aid/federal-student-loans/federal-student-loan-history/

Or maybe your over simplified analysis is incorrect. Certainly easy money has contributed to distortions in the market for higher education. But attributing it as the sole cause of increases in the tuition costs is simply not supported by the history or data. 

Edited February 8 by Dahobbs

[huge 3793]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Or maybe your over simplified analysis is incorrect. Certainly easy money has contributed to distortions in the market for higher education. But attributing it as the sole cause of increases in the tuition costs is simply not supported by the history or data. 

keep going

[Neonmoon 38129]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Or maybe your over simplified analysis is incorrect. Certainly easy money has contributed to distortions in the market for higher education. But attributing it as the sole cause of increases in the tuition costs is simply not supported by the history or data. 

It’s not the sole cause but it’s a big one. What history or data are you referring to?

Also outdated buildings? only in America are 30 year old buildings outdated. 

[Blotto 23491]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Yeah.  Sure.  All universities should IPO and be governed by a shareholder proxy voting system, was truly the argument I surreptitiously advanced.  Go with that, little buddy

Well can you at least give us your favorite for profit university success story? 

Edited February 8 by Blotto

[Neonmoon 38129]

I talked to guy in Higher Ed

He said

Deregulation in 2003 pushed costs from State to student

Easy Student loan money means unlimited source of funds

Research Professors saying they need new clean labs and shit they don't need to work there 

Students demanding new shit like climbing walls, swimming centers, taking classes on phones (ie Consumerism)

A giant bowl of shit

[Frank Drebin 5661]

28 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I talked to guy in Higher Ed

He said

Deregulation in 2003 pushed costs from State to student

 

That does not appear to be true.

And again, inflation adjusted state and local spending on higher education is up almost 200% since 1977.  Enrollment is up less than 100%. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Sorry, I should have said he was speaking about Texas specifically. 

And also forgot to add another reason is State/Federal pass unfunded mandates that schools have to follow that increase costs (Title 9, 4, 3)

 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Because there is a graph posted, I'd like to provide a link to an article that accompanies that same graph. It's an informative read, won't take all that long (5-8 minutes for you bright eyed readers) and provides information that puts that graph in a much clearer perspective relative to this discussion, which btw, has strayed somewhat from the original topic of academic fraud.

https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiatives/state-and-local-finance-initiative/state-and-local-backgrounders/higher-education-expenditures

[Dahobbs 17527]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

That does not appear to be true.

And again, inflation adjusted state and local spending on higher education is up almost 200% since 1977.  Enrollment is up less than 100%. 

That graph doesn't show what you think it does. 

[Pancho 44717]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I talked to guy in Higher Ed

He said

Deregulation in 2003 pushed costs from State to student

Easy Student loan money means unlimited source of funds

Research Professors saying they need new clean labs and shit they don't need to work there 

Students demanding new shit like climbing walls, swimming centers, taking classes on phones (ie Consumerism)

A giant bowl of shit

 

You talked to “a guy” in higher ed? 

 

Student loan does NOT mean an unlimited source of funds. Who is this guy again? And don’t get me started on FAFSA. 

No research prof is saying they need a “clean lab.” WTF? Most T1 Research institutions get money for those labs from grants and private foundations. Jesus Christ. Also, if you’re a prof at a 4-year who your job is to basically do research first, that research is mostly just writing journal articles. The funding from that (should they need to go somewhere to do the research) once again comes from grants (mostly). 

There are no students demanding climbing walls or swimming centers. Those are things the university adds based on a.) what other universities have and b.) student feedback. Those things aren’t required, and those things may come in the form of student fees, but that is minimal compared to the overall tuition price. 

Students don’t “take classes” on their phones. Instead, they use the LMS system through their phone instead of a laptop. For some students, the only way to access the LMS for their class (in person or online) is through their phone. That’s not demanding a class be taught though the phone, mostly because there’s no such thing. 

And yes, a building on a college campus built in 1993 is outdated compared to 2024. College campus buildings aren’t the same as a skyscraper in downtown Houston that was built in 1993. 

 

You’re angry about stuff you’re uneducated about, and it’s just not clear why. 

[Js1 85296]

3 hours ago, Pancho said:

I’m not sure where the bros are getting this idea that tuition increase is because of administrators making 100-125k.

You know the answer to this

[Js1 85296]

I also love when y'all rile up Pancho and he puts on his educator hat

[Braff Zacklin 13556]

Pancho is green?

[Pancho 44717]

7 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I also love when y'all rile up Pancho and he puts on his educator hat

 

I left a meeting early just to come back and reply. I couldn’t take it anymore.

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

You talked to “a guy” in higher ed? 

 

Student loan does NOT mean an unlimited source of funds. Who is this guy again? And don’t get me started on FAFSA. 

No research prof is saying they need a “clean lab.” WTF? Most T1 Research institutions get money for those labs from grants and private foundations. Jesus Christ. Also, if you’re a prof at a 4-year who your job is to basically do research first, that research is mostly just writing journal articles. The funding from that (should they need to go somewhere to do the research) once again comes from grants (mostly). 

There are no students demanding climbing walls or swimming centers. Those are things the university adds based on a.) what other universities have and b.) student feedback. Those things aren’t required, and those things may come in the form of student fees, but that is minimal compared to the overall tuition price. 

Students don’t “take classes” on their phones. Instead, they use the LMS system through their phone instead of a laptop. For some students, the only way to access the LMS for their class (in person or online) is through their phone. That’s not demanding a class be taught though the phone, mostly because there’s no such thing. 

And yes, a building on a college campus built in 1993 is outdated compared to 2024. College campus buildings aren’t the same as a skyscraper in downtown Houston that was built in 1993. 

You’re angry about stuff you’re uneducated about, and it’s just not clear why. 

I'm not angry about anything. I don't give a fuck if they jack up tuition prices. It doesn't affect me at all. I hope they do. 

Yes, when every single student in the United States can get a student loan to pay for something with no guarantee they can pay the money back = unlimited funds. Which I'm okay with, I think higher education should be free. That doesn't mean it's not part of the reason why tuition has increased. 

Quote

Those are things the university adds based on a.) what other universities have and b.) student feedback. Those things aren’t required, and those things may come in the form of student fees, but that is minimal compared to the overall tuition price. 

It's really funny seeing you say students don't demand climbing walls but yet add them based on what other universities have done and student feedback. Bravo

yes, a building built in 1993 is outdated compared to other college campuses in America. That's laughable. Only in America can student and teachers complain about outdated buildings. In other countries, they teach in buildings that are hundreds of years old and everyone gets the same education. American are entitled. They want the nicest shit and then bitch that it costs too much.

 

 

 

[Dahobbs 17527]

32 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

yes, a building built in 1993 is outdated compared to other college campuses in America. That's laughable. Only in America can student and teachers complain about outdated buildings. In other countries, they teach in buildings that are hundreds of years old and everyone gets the same education. American are entitled. They want the nicest shit and then bitch that it costs too much.

You're under the impression that universities in other countries don't have the same need to replace/renovate older buildings?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/22/uk-universities-building-schemes-tuition-fees-new-students

https://www.dw.com/en/german-universities-urgently-need-infrastructure-investment/a-50835885

https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/building-our-future/planning-and-consultation

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/campus-division/about-us/campus-development/capital-projects/projects/

https://www.eib.org/en/projects/pipelines/all/20150653

https://www.kardham.com/en/News/Renovation_of_the_Valrose_University_Campus_in_Nice-00464

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You're under the impression that universities in other countries don't have the same need to replace/renovate older buildings?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/22/uk-universities-building-schemes-tuition-fees-new-students

https://www.dw.com/en/german-universities-urgently-need-infrastructure-investment/a-50835885

https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/building-our-future/planning-and-consultation

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/campus-division/about-us/campus-development/capital-projects/projects/

https://www.eib.org/en/projects/pipelines/all/20150653

https://www.kardham.com/en/News/Renovation_of_the_Valrose_University_Campus_in_Nice-00464

 

Is it a need or a want?

 

[Dahobbs 17527]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

Is it a need or a want?

 

From the perspective of the universities, I don't think there is a difference. The projects I linked are exactly the same sort of projects that US universities are spending on. But by all means, continue your culture war based upon your assumptions and ignorance. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

42 minutes ago, Pancho said:

No research prof is saying they need a “clean lab.” WTF? Most T1 Research institutions get money for those labs from grants and private foundations. Jesus Christ. Also, if you’re a prof at a 4-year who your job is to basically do research first, that research is mostly just writing journal articles. The funding from that (should they need to go somewhere to do the research) once again comes from grants (mostly).

In the STEM fields, specifically say a hard science such as chem or bio for example, one thing that isn't talked about among laypeople is how those grant dollars work at unis. Say a prof writes a grant and it gets funded and you and I get an alumni mag/email saying--"Professor So-and-So was awarded a $5 million dollar grant by the National Science Foundation, this 5 year grant blah blah blah..."

What isn't said in that article is that firstly, the university will take a cut off that grant right off the top. At T1 public unis that may be anywhere from 40-60 % of the total. That is IIRC, for operations, maintenance, staff support, etc. By that I mean, it keeps the lights on and the university running w/o which said prof wouldn't have a lab. So, $5 million drops to (I'll use 50%) $2.5 million in short order. But wait, it's a five year grant so that's $ 500,000 a year. Still seems like a lot? That depends. One may need to purchase more equipment, or lab chemicals, or keep animals fed and watered, or pay post doctoral assistants and other staff salaries and so on. The amount of the award I listed was actually well above average, I just didn't feel like parsing it down to smaller amounts. The average award (annual figure) is around $100,000 IIRC (I'm using NSF). While graduate students don't make much, if a prof has no grant money with which to pay them, then they usually need to teach. If they're teaching then they're not in the lab helping do the experiments that aid in publications and grant writing.

For UT, they actually do alright; I think their NSF funding rate is around 36% (meaning the number of grants applied for and then granted), but grant writing takes a lot of time and is only one part of a professor's job.

I didn't even go into start-up packages which are used to set up a research lab when hiring faculty. Which leads to another issue with buildings--sometimes a new building is needed because the increase in enrollments mean that more teaching labs are required. Like it or not, students (and their parents) prefer to have classes with labs be in person and not virtual. But labs have safety requirements and other needs. If the average lab is about 20 students per section, at large state unis (like tOSU or A&M) you could have labs running dawn to midnight and weekends and still have students shut out. Which leads to four year graduation rates dropping which brings the State down on the uni.

 

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

From the perspective of the universities, I don't think there is a difference. The projects I linked are exactly the same sort of projects that US universities are spending on. But by all means, continue your culture war based upon your assumptions and ignorance. 

From the perspective of people that can't afford tuition these days, there certainty is a difference. The projects you linked don't prove anything other you have access to google. But by all means, continue your condescension based upon your need to feel superior to other people. 

 

 

[RDCanecutter 26401]

23 hours ago, Incredulity said:

1:25 to 1:38 sums it up succinctly

This clip is not some critique of academia by practical businessmen. This is a bit of play-acting created by all sorts of people. English major script writers. Drama school actors who had to audition against hordes of competitors but who are wired not to care. Careful competent technical crew. Financing and distribution by business types, promotion by art and marketing people. Rodney himself is doing a bit, he's imitating an imaginary self-made man of business, when he actually accomplished something far harder-- making a living as a comedian. The clip is a variation of the pie in the face of the snobby character. We like Rodney for that. 

The MG abuse (is that a real MG?) is inexcusable.

[Dahobbs 17527]

12 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

From the perspective of people that can't afford tuition these days, there certainty is a difference. The projects you linked don't prove anything other you have access to google. But by all means, continue your condescension based upon your need to feel superior to other people. 

 

 

I'm not the one arguing that the problem is students in the US today are entitled. You are. I'm not the one arguing that universities in other countries don't have the same need to renovate and replace buildings. You are. I'm not the one making assumptions about an entire generation of students. You are. Again, this was you:

"No. The reason is the government unleashed easy money with education loans, and the piggies are gorging themselves at the trough. Schools will continue to suck as much easy money from the government as they can until the spigot is turned off. Schools build new buildings, create new departments, hire new teachers, all to attract more of that easy money. If the rich Prince shows up to my resort looking to spend money, I’m going to find ways to increase the bill until the Prince runs out of money. "

"Only in America can student and teachers complain about outdated buildings. In other countries, they teach in buildings that are hundreds of years old and everyone gets the same education. American are entitled. They want the nicest shit and then bitch that it costs too much."

Really, who is the one being condescending here? You are. I'm just calling you out on it. 

Edited February 8 by Dahobbs

[Dahobbs 17527]

If you didn't want to be so condescending, you could say that market forces drive universities to invest in better resources for students in order to attract new students. Further, prestigious universities have a desire to attract the very best students, and in order to do so against increasing competition, have to invest in additional student resources. Government backed loans and the inability to discharge school loan debt in bankruptcy have created a situation where lenders face little risk, increasing the pool of money available to students. That funding not only that more students can afford high education, but that many students can afford to invest more in higher education than before, further shifting demand side of the market.

So, really, this is all about normal market forces operating in expected ways. It isn't about lack of accountability of non-profit institutions.  It isn't about students nowadays are entitled. And it isn't about universities wanting to suck up all the government money for fun. It does suggest that maybe market dynamics aren't always the best way to allocate resources. 

Edited February 8 by Dahobbs

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

44 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Is it a need or a want?

 

The answer to that is: it depends.

At some universities it is space. A&M had to backtrack on their rapid admissions growth because their infrastructure could not handle it. I cannot recall if it is a mandate (whether that is from their chancellor or the BOR or State) or not, but I *think* there was something I read that only a certain % of classes could be online. It was long enough ago that I've forgotten the particulars of it but it arose post pandemic I think. In other cases, money is not for a new building but renovating an old one. Pipes in old buildings break and whew boy, there went 15 years of research ruined due to water damage. During the economic downturn, deferred maintenance that wonderful thing K-12 districts know all about, is no stranger to higher ed campuses either. So stuff gets patched and patched again. Even better is when the public university goes with lowest bid and cuts corners to the point that it does actually affect the overall lifespan of a building. Many state universities (I'll go with flagships) campuses will have the mix of old and new. From the various campuses I've visited, you may find original buildings from the founding and then the burst of construction that occurred post WWII that continued into the 60s and 70s as the population grew and baby boomers came of age. Some of the 60-70s buildings were the brutalist concrete structures that are now in approximately the same condition as our nation's bridges and overpasses.

I'll stop there.

Edited February 8 by Mrs Whiggins

[Neonmoon 38129]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

If you didn't want to be so condescending, you could say that market forces drive universities to invest in better resources for students in order to attract new students. Further, prestigious universities have a desire to attract the very best students, and in order to do so against increasing competition, have to invest in additional student resources. Government backed loans and the inability to discharge school loan debt in bankruptcy have created a situation where lenders face little risk, increasing the pool of money available to students. That funding not only that more students can afford high education, but that many students can afford to invest more in higher education than before, further shifting demand side of the market. I don't think there is anything particularly surprising about how this market interaction ends up playing out. And I don't think it is because students nowadays are entitled or universities just want to suck up all the government money for fun. 

So you're basically just saying

That's fair. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19189]

32 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

In the STEM fields, specifically say a hard science such as chem or bio for example, one thing that isn't talked about among laypeople is how those grant dollars work at unis. Say a prof writes a grant and it gets funded and you and I get an alumni mag/email saying--"Professor So-and-So was awarded a $5 million dollar grant by the National Science Foundation, this 5 year grant blah blah blah..."

What isn't said in that article is that firstly, the university will take a cut off that grant right off the top. At T1 public unis that may be anywhere from 40-60 % of the total. That is IIRC, for operations, maintenance, staff support, etc. By that I mean, it keeps the lights on and the university running w/o which said prof wouldn't have a lab. So, $5 million drops to (I'll use 50%) $2.5 million in short order. But wait, it's a five year grant so that's $ 500,000 a year. Still seems like a lot? That depends. One may need to purchase more equipment, or lab chemicals, or keep animals fed and watered, or pay post doctoral assistants and other staff salaries and so on. The amount of the award I listed was actually well above average, I just didn't feel like parsing it down to smaller amounts. The average award (annual figure) is around $100,000 IIRC (I'm using NSF). While graduate students don't make much, if a prof has no grant money with which to pay them, then they usually need to teach. If they're teaching then they're not in the lab helping do the experiments that aid in publications and grant writing.

For UT, they actually do alright; I think their NSF funding rate is around 36% (meaning the number of grants applied for and then granted), but grant writing takes a lot of time and is only one part of a professor's job.

I didn't even go into start-up packages which are used to set up a research lab when hiring faculty. Which leads to another issue with buildings--sometimes a new building is needed because the increase in enrollments mean that more teaching labs are required. Like it or not, students (and their parents) prefer to have classes with labs be in person and not virtual. But labs have safety requirements and other needs. If the average lab is about 20 students per section, at large state unis (like tOSU or A&M) you could have labs running dawn to midnight and weekends and still have students shut out. Which leads to four year graduation rates dropping which brings the State down on the uni.

 

 

I would hope the person applying for the grant has taken overhead costs and the school’s cut into account when figuring out how much to ask for. 

[RDCanecutter 26401]

We still talking about fraud any? In my International Career of Mystery I've seen a variety.

-- regular-ass wormy scared student cheating, from traditional to online

-- a drunken professor who confessed that he'd done his Doctoral thesis by copying one he'd found in East Germany

-- Lying-ass research scientists who faked the data

-- One colleague who supposedly was supposed to give a talk in the Czech Republic, I am convinced she pocketed the plane fare and stayed home

-- Teacher development course approved by a Mexican university that probably didn't know their name was used, co-hosted by a PhD from one of @Mole's PO Box universities

-- US Army-levels of lost, mis-used, disappeared supplies

[EDIT]-- almost forgot all those scammerooni coding "Boot-Camps" that were a thing back a while ago, untrained instructors, sunshine-pumping, fictional hiring stats... those still a thing?

-- One case of printing up a fake transcript and making a notary seal on it by whacking a shoe on a commemorative coin (OK that one was me)

Edited February 8 by RDCanecutter

[Pancho 44717]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I'm not angry about anything. I don't give a fuck if they jack up tuition prices. It doesn't affect me at all. I hope they do. 

Yes, when every single student in the United States can get a student loan to pay for something with no guarantee they can pay the money back = unlimited funds. Which I'm okay with, I think higher education should be free. That doesn't mean it's not part of the reason why tuition has increased. 

It's really funny seeing you say students don't demand climbing walls but yet add them based on what other universities have done and student feedback. Bravo

yes, a building built in 1993 is outdated compared to other college campuses in America. That's laughable. Only in America can student and teachers complain about outdated buildings. In other countries, they teach in buildings that are hundreds of years old and everyone gets the same education. American are entitled. They want the nicest shit and then bitch that it costs too much.

 

 

 

 

Every single student CAN’T get a loan. You do know that right? 

I said they could add a wall, it’s not required. You do realize there are colleges/universities where a climbing wall was requested and it was promptly denied, right?

[Pancho 44717]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

From the perspective of people that can't afford tuition these days, there certainty is a difference. The projects you linked don't prove anything other you have access to google. But by all means, continue your condescension based upon your need to feel superior to other people. 

 

 

Building a climbing wall has jack shit to do with why people can’t afford tuition. 

Do you know why students can’t afford tuition or will you keep blaming walls and new buildings (which isn’t why)?

 

 

EDIT: I’m not sure why that was bold, I’m not mad nor drunk but could be both after 5pm.

[Pancho 44717]

2 hours ago, Braff Zacklin said:

Pancho is green?

It’s called “light skinned”