Jump to content

The Sopranos


wild_turkey

Recommended Posts

By that point “everyone” had pretty much been narrowed down to a bunch of spares, and I don’t think Patsy would’ve had much trouble getting them to fall in line.

With Carlo Gervasi flipping, and Jason Parisi being implicated in the same shit that Carlo’s son Jason was arrested for, Patsy was in a kill or be killed scenario. Not to mention the revenge factor for his twin brother being whacked by Tony.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Probably anchored by the long exposition I read but now pretty obvious Paulie put out the hit on Tony. That's been one of the joys of the re-watch is noticing Paulie's complexities.

I'd like to read that article too. I'm embarrassed to say I never gave a 2nd thought about who off'd Tony. I watched the beginning season or two when it first aired on hbo but then went to law school and then lived in europe so missed all the discussion when the series finale aired. I guess I was too bummed about the show being over and Tony dead to think much more about it. I've streamed it twice since then but I guess I'm going to have to find the podcast that's been mentioned and watch it all again.

 

Edited by Chopper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Chopper said:

I'd like to read that article too. I'm embarrassed to say I never gave a 2nd thought about who off'd Tony. I watched the beginning season or two when it first aired on hbo but then went to law school and then lived in europe so missed all the discussion when the series finale aired. I guess I was too bummed about the show being over and Tony dead to think much more about it. I've streamed it twice since then but I guess I'm going to have to find the podcast that's been mentioned and watch it all again.

 

Butchie and Patsy is my guess.  Jersey and NY combine families.

Edited by SizzleChest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SizzleChest said:

Butchie and Patsy is my guess.  Jersey and NY combine families.

Yeah I just assumed the NY family did it and I never really thought more about it. I don't see Paulie ordering a hit on Tony. Paulie was the only one to survive the war so I can see why some may think he did it. But I think coming up with any evidence he did iwould be a real stretch.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chopper said:

Yeah I just assumed the NY family did it and I never really thought more about it. I don't see Paulie ordering a hit on Tony. Paulie was the only one to survive the war so I can see why some may think he did it. But I think coming up with any evidence he did iwould be a real stretch.

 

I don’t think Paulie could off tony. To much history. But I can see him falling in line after it happened because he’s just a old school gangster that respects the rules and if everyone was in line for a hit on tony he’d be good to go after a sit down when it was done. I don’t see him as boss material at all just a loyal solder.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bogeywon said:

I don’t think Paulie could off tony. To much history. But I can see him falling in line after it happened because he’s just a old school gangster that respects the rules and if everyone was in line for a hit on tony he’d be good to go after a sit down when it was done. I don’t see him as boss material at all just a loyal solder.  

Good post, and I get the spirit of it, but Paulie was a capo almost for the entire length of the show. 
 

David Chase has spoken at length about the ending. Tony didn’t die. Please move on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2021 at 10:57 PM, Harrison Bergeron said:

Probably anchored by the long exposition I read but now pretty obvious Paulie put out the hit on Tony. That's been one of the joys of the re-watch is noticing Paulie's complexities.

You gonna link that article or what, Harry?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Paulie would have been in on it.  Because for one thing, New York never respected him because while he was a good capo for Tony, he never really got good into the construction/development racket, he never really got ahold of how to generate legit income.  All of their high level scams (stock trading, esplanade, politicians on the take, etc.  Paulie was never included in that stuff.  Whenever Tony met with really high level people, he never brought Paulie along.  New York knew that and figured he'd just fall in line under new leadership because he was never able to operate in that world independently.  Plus he was fiercely loyal to Tony, so I think he was excluded from the start but wouldn't have likely attempted reprisal.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/17/2021 at 12:16 PM, Player said:

Not to mention the revenge factor for his twin brother being whacked by Tony.

Murdering her father right in front of his future daughter-in-law too. Unforeseen consequences for his own son. That's some real Soprano's shit right there. I love it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting article, but it's really heavy on the motive and pretty speculative on the opportunity. 

SPOILER SPECULATION BELOW

I still think it was Patsy.  He had plenty of motive with nearly certain suspicion that Tony killed his twin brother, Spoons.  He has cover of his kid marrying Meadow.  He has urgency with his other son's being hooked up with Carlo’s son and we see the conversation between Patsy and Tony about Jason getting in trouble.  Carlo flipped to help his son; Patsy understand that if his son was involved, Tony would be concerned about his loyalty to his son versus his loyalty to Tony.  There's also that weird moment/look when they're meeting about the wedding with Tony getting him a drink.  Patsy is afraid he’ll be taken out worrying tony is worried about Carlo and his son. 

Lastly, we have opportunity.  The dinner at Holsten's was a pretty last minute decision (Carm was supposed to cook manigot that night).  Patsy could have gotten the Holsten's intel  because it isn't unlikely that Meadow spoke to Patrick beforehand that they are going to dinner at Holsten's and Patrick mentions it to Patsy.  That last part is a bit speculative, but how Members Only guy arrives that quickly to a last minute dinner (walks in the door right in front of AJ) is hard to explain otherwise, particularly if the Godfather analogy plays out and the gun is stashed in the bathroom (unnecessary, of course).

/edit to say that it's possible (under the Paulie and NY theory) that Little Carmine (AJ works for him)  could have had AJ followed by Members Only Guy , hence the same arrival time.  Carmella asks AJ how work was.  So he didn't come from home.  I just don't buy it though.  While I can see Butchie and the rest of NY lining up with Paulie against Tony, Tony and Little Carmine always had a really good relationship.  So while I don't see him being an impediment to NY's whacking Tony, it's hard for me to see him as an instrument in it.

Edited by dcbc
  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

What was the deal with Patsy's other son and Carlo's son again?  That totally escapes me.  

I edited above.  The two Jasons (Carlo's kid and Patsy's kid).  Carlo's kid got busted for selling drugs.  Carlo flips, purportedly to help his son.  Since Patsy's other son and Carlo's son are in "business" together, Patsy rightfully understands that Tony now is concerned about his loyalty to his son Jason versus his loyalty to Tony. 

We see an allusion to this at the wedding reception when Patsy calls Jason over and says something to him, possibly, get lost . . . out of sight out of mind with Tony.  It's not really clear.  But Tony brings it up at the Wedding meet and greet and there's noticeable tension.

Edited by dcbc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotcha, pos rep.  Now I remember.  Carlo was an underused character, IMO.  I remember that shit with the kids running drugs now.  

Yeah, that was about to tear open some old and new wounds.  There really were signs all along to indicate what would happen at the end.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Wade said:

I dismissed your theory about Paulie immediately, but have to admit that first link has some interesting arguments.

It does.  However, the part about Tony's seeing a therapist being a thorn in Paulie's side doesn't really work because Paulie admits to having seen a therapist to learn "coping skills" early in the series.  I also think the idea of Paulie not having a hit placed on him goes to the earlier NY espoused idea that they would cut off the head and do business with what's left.  Obviously, Paulie is seen as someone they could work with, but I don't think that means he would be in on it. 

Edited by dcbc
  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously confirmation bias, but re-watching the conversations between Johny Sack and Paulie take on a darker twist. On Patsy ... I get revenge. I get the long game. Two refutations:
1. Professional - he's in a good spot with Tony and stability is good in this line of work unless you're #2 or #3 or a competing family; he whacks Tony there is a decent chance he gets got in the post-hit chaos
2. Psychological - as we at Tony's pool ... Tony killed his twin. You do not outsource revenge for that. He would want Tony to know that he killed him. I just cannot ever buy that he would hire a hit man to avenge his twin.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Obviously confirmation bias, but re-watching the conversations between Johny Sack and Paulie take on a darker twist. On Patsy ... I get revenge. I get the long game. Two refutations:
1. Professional - he's in a good spot with Tony and stability is good in this line of work unless you're #2 or #3 or a competing family; he whacks Tony there is a decent chance he gets got in the post-hit chaos
2. Psychological - as we at Tony's pool ... Tony killed his twin. You do not outsource revenge for that. He would want Tony to know that he killed him. I just cannot ever buy that he would hire a hit man to avenge his twin.

Tony sourced the Spoons hit to Gigi.  Patsy (perhaps partnered up with Butchie as I speculated above) sources the hit on Tony.

AJ was at home when the decision was made to go to Holsten's.  He was lounging on the couch with his high school gf (after he picked her up after school).  He presumably took her home, then went to Holsten's to meet his parents and sister.  So, I don't think Little Carmine would have known about Holsten's.  It had to have been Meadow-->Patrick-->Patsy-->Butchie.  Patsy then gets the casino and book to run and Paulie keeps the esplanade, with NY having a much stronger hand in running all of it.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SizzleChest said:

Tony sourced the Spoons hit to Gigi.  Patsy (perhaps partnered up with Butchie as I speculated above) sources the hit on Tony.

AJ was at home when the decision was made to go to Holsten's.  He was lounging on the couch with his high school gf (after he picked her up after school).  He presumably took her home, then went to Holsten's to meet his parents and sister.  So, I don't think Little Carmine would have known about Holsten's.  It had to have been Meadow-->Patrick-->Patsy-->Butchie.  Patsy then gets the casino and book to run and Paulie keeps the esplanade, with NY having a much stronger hand in running all of it.

Okay, I'm having a brain fart. What was the name of Tony's twin brother that Spoons whacked?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, SizzleChest said:

Tony sourced the Spoons hit to Gigi.  Patsy (perhaps partnered up with Butchie as I speculated above) sources the hit on Tony.

AJ was at home when the decision was made to go to Holsten's.  He was lounging on the couch with his high school gf (after he picked her up after school).  He presumably took her home, then went to Holsten's to meet his parents and sister.  So, I don't think Little Carmine would have known about Holsten's.  It had to have been Meadow-->Patrick-->Patsy-->Butchie.  Patsy then gets the casino and book to run and Paulie keeps the esplanade, with NY having a much stronger hand in running all of it.

Good point.  I got the timeline a bit off.  AJ would have taken the gf home, which is why he and Carm rode separately.  When Carm asked him "how was work," he'd been at work before he picked the GF up, hung out with her at the house, and it was the first time Carm got really to speak to him that day.  Holsten's was apparently somewhere that was an old favorite for them, but they didn't go there during the series (on camera).  So it wasn't a regular haunt for Tony like Satriale's or the Bing.  So having it staked out like they were able to stake out pay phones with Phil wasn't a reasonable strategy for NY without a tip on the inside. 

As for Patsy's being content, he could have been, but watch him during the wedding meet and greet with Tony and Carm.  Something is off with him and he gives Tony a look over the drink that seems to say, "You're time is short, cocksucka."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2021 at 7:27 PM, SizzleChest said:

Tony sourced the Spoons hit to Gigi.  Patsy (perhaps partnered up with Butchie as I speculated above) sources the hit on Tony.

AJ was at home when the decision was made to go to Holsten's.  He was lounging on the couch with his high school gf (after he picked her up after school).  He presumably took her home, then went to Holsten's to meet his parents and sister.  So, I don't think Little Carmine would have known about Holsten's.  It had to have been Meadow-->Patrick-->Patsy-->Butchie.  Patsy then gets the casino and book to run and Paulie keeps the esplanade, with NY having a much stronger hand in running all of it.

I think Patsy orchestrated the hit on Tony, but Paulie wasn’t “in” on it. Paulie just looked the other way after Tony treated Paulie like shit at Nucci’s funeral. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

One thing that I had not noticed before, or my attitude has changed by this rewatch:  Meadow is a twat.  She's also not that hot.

Re-post: rewatch makes me really hate Tony and glad he got clipped. He's a terrible person and a terrible boss. I mean the big stupid oaf makes some freshmen-level mistakes. I did not realize how incompetent he was the first time around. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve rewatched a couple of times and I agree re Tony. He’s his mother. As much as you hate Janice she really tried to turn her life around and have a normal family and you could see it was just killing Tony to see her happy. The pettiness and spite and need to sabotage her (and Bobby) was more vile than all the gangster shit he did

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’ve rewatched a couple of times and I agree re Tony. He’s his mother. As much as you hate Janice she really tried to turn her life around and have a normal family and you could see it was just killing Tony to see her happy. The pettiness and spite and need to sabotage her (and Bobby) was more vile than all the gangster shit he did

I think Janice is more like her mother i.e. manipulative. I mean the sickest scenes in the show are when she steals other women's food for Bobby and gives them to Uncle June and tosses Karen's last ziti. I mean that's some dark shit. I think Tony's just a stupid, selfish prick - there are myriad times where he could have some basic human dignity and sympathy - i.e. refuse some honorarium or listen to some legitimate concerns - that would have gone a long way. No wonder everyone hates him in the end. He's about as self aware as 

Spoiler

Brown's Bratwurst Bun.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started a rewatch this week and Tony's problem is that he is caught between trying to be "normal" and being the wiseguy he is supposed to be.  He brings in too many "civilian" emotions and it affects his ability to be the boss he should be. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Junior telling Tony about the uncle he didn't know who was 'slow' and was put in a home...

Tony: 'i remember my parents fighting, and my mother kept talking about my father's feeble-minded brother... but i always thought she was talking about you!' 

🤣

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/22/2021 at 6:31 AM, dcbc said:

s for Patsy's being content, he could have been, but watch him during the wedding meet and greet with Tony and Carm.  Something is off with him and he gives Tony a look over the drink that seems to say, "You're time is short, cocksucka."

 I took that as more a look of "fuck, the boss is annoyed he's having to serve me".  Tony looked pissed when Carm nudged him to refill Patsy's drink

That said, I think I'd fall in line with Patsy being involved for reasons stated.  Also, he and his brother were originally in Junior's crew.  He was always viewed suspiciously by Tony and he knew it

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

In the middle of season 2 of my rewatch and noticed "Wheel in the Sky" was played a couple of times in this episode. I think that's the only time a Journey song was used in the show. 

You mean except for the last episode?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah but after all these years, I faithfully come back to the show and its ending with open arms.  The show can still end any way you want it depending if you're feeling that way.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/23/2021 at 10:28 PM, Hate said:

I started a rewatch this week and Tony's problem is that he is caught between trying to be "normal" and being the wiseguy he is supposed to be.  He brings in too many "civilian" emotions and it affects his ability to be the boss he should be. 

Congratulations. That's pretty much the basis of the entire show. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...