New St. Augustine Lawn, Broadleaf Problem

[Irish Wrist Watch 1380]

Dateline: Central Texas

So late last year laid down a palate of St. Augustine over existing weeds (getting nasty) and Bermuda (weakening). Watered twice a day for two weeks and seems to have taken hold. Looked great for five or six weeks then winter hit and it went dormant. Seen more broadleaf weeds then in previous years. I've been warned that pre-emergent on this new lawn was unwise, so I didn't do any. Same for spraying for broadleaf. 

But I'm wondering, since most of the grass blades are dead, is a broadleaf spray gonna hurt anything? The one someone gave me is made by roundup, actually - not the traditional kill-everything Roundup. I suppose there's a case to be made for the broadleaf killer to affect the St. Augustine roots. (I'm seeing some green blades, already). 

So what's the verdict from Surly's Lawncare Gurus on the broadleaf treatment?

And while we're at it, I did put down pre-emergent on my existing Bermuda sections a couple of weeks ago. I think I got that in under the wire, but what say you on using it now (on a friend's yard) which will soon be sodded. Is it too late? 

And by the way, I'm catching a lot of flack for not watering enough during the winter. Seems to me it was a fairly wet winter. And if the ground is so fucking dry, why the hell is all this broadleaf coming up.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

Plenty more folks way more knowledgeable than me on here ... paging @cactusflinthead for one as to how soon for a pre-emergent on new sod.

 

As am fyi -  a broadleaf for St. Augustine that has worked wonders for me (after trying many unsuccessfully) has been "Image Southern Lawn Weed Killer".  Can get any big box or online. My big problems are clover and chickweed. Has worked incredibly well for me on clover and well on chickweed, along with handling the stray other broadleaf weeds.

[deadshank 24653]

2 hours ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

Dateline: Central Texas

So late last year laid down a palate of St. Augustine over existing weeds (getting nasty) and Bermuda (weakening). 

 

Any particular flavor?

[Guest]

I have St. Augustine. I love the look of St. Augustine. It's a terrible grass for central Texas. It's too damn hot and dry. 

[cactusflinthead 27601]

4 hours ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

what say you on using it now (on a friend's yard) which will soon be sodded. Is it too late? 

Unless they are going to till it first I would pass on the pre before laying sod. The label should have a note on the Interval between applications and seeding or laying sod.

A post emergent application on sod from last year should be fine but again check the label. 

[Irish Wrist Watch 1380]

Follow up: decided against using the Roundup Broadleaf on the St. Augustine except in a spot or two (as a test). The Roundup seems to be working pretty good on the broadleaf everywhere I sprayed. It's only been a week or so. In the test areas, can't see any damage to the St. Augustine. It's starting to green up a little. 

Re the beauty of St. Aug in Texas: As a kid in San Antonio we planted a front and back yard with st. aug runners by punching a hole in the ground with screwdrivers. The yard had some shade and always looked great when it got enough water. Good shade helps, OTOH pounding a baseball (wiffle ball) diamond between the front door and the street, the pyracanthas and the driveway on the sides, took its toll. 

Now I'm dreading going after the broadlear I didn't poison. Hoping that mowing with a grass catcher will do the trick - just let the grass choke out the weeds. That's suit my pallet just fine.

[deadshank 24653]

16 hours ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

That's suit my pallet just fine.

We need to talk.  
 

Also, I’m in the same boat.  I don’t like using herbicides at home due to my dawgs.  My StA is a mess.   I need to resurrect it or kill it all and go back with something more hardy. 

[Tonesky 941]

On 2/25/2024 at 5:11 PM, MonkeyDoughnut said:

As am fyi -  a broadleaf for St. Augustine that has worked wonders for me (after trying many unsuccessfully) has been "Image Southern Lawn Weed Killer".  Can get any big box or online. My big problems are clover and chickweed. Has worked incredibly well for me on clover and well on chickweed, along with handling the stray other broadleaf weeds.

How long did it take to see results?  I sprayed this a week ago and my weeds look as happy as ever....

[MonkeyDoughnut 10301]

7 hours ago, Tonesky said:

How long did it take to see results?  I sprayed this a week ago and my weeds look as happy as ever....

About week to two weeks. I'll spray a couple time, every week or so until gone.

[Lat22 4015]

I just put out 120 lbs of Nelson Weedinator yesterday.  We'll see how it does.

[deadshank 24653]

On 3/6/2024 at 11:13 AM, Lat22 said:

I just put out 120 lbs of Nelson Weedinator yesterday.  We'll see how it does.

Well?

[troph 24854]

So what about environmentally sensitive stuff?  Motivations - first “just over there” is the source of drinking water for all you yahoos, as much as you tempt me from time to time I’d rather not add to the chem run off situation. Second - fleas and ticks yeah fuck those guys but I’m becoming a softy for the bugs, I’d rather not kill them, and third we have a dog that loves to roll around in the yard, bury his nose in the blades, and drag his empty nut sack across the greenery. 
 

the only chem I’ve given up on is sedge hammer for nutsedge, I’m on a mission to eradicate it from the planet. 
 

new lawn, haven’t yet used the corn meal pre emergent but will for next cycle. For now I’m honestly pulling weeds. 
 

so really I need three things - confirmation that cornmeal by product works, two a natural fertilizer, three weed killer. All enviro sensitive. Bonus points for killing wild Bermuda. 
 

I’ll do my own digging around (pun intended) - probably go to the garden place today and ask them but any thoughts would be great. 

Edited March 17 by troph

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

One of the best non chemical treatments I've ever done once our St. A starts greening is to mow twice a week. The grass gets really thick and that aids in less opportunity for both germination and being able to spot the rando weed that popped through.

[troph 24854]

Natural Gardner - 

1. wanna kill nutsedge? Heavy duty plastic starve it of light and incinerate it with trapped heat. At least 3 weeks. No guarantees.  O_o

2. wanna kill wild Bermuda in flower beds? Hahahaha. Roots go feet deep not inches deep. Vinegar solution ain’t gonna do it but you can try. Best to dig it up. That’s right you heard me. O_o

3. organic fertilizer - no prob. Here you go.

4. Broadleaf weed killer - vinegar but it will kill everything it touches and the roots have enough energy to regrow so you have to spray more than once. Basically it sorta works. O_o

Basically if you don’t want to poison the earth you need to expect some amount of weeds. Just deal with it. O_o

Edited March 20 by troph

[NoName 16354]

On 3/18/2024 at 12:34 PM, Mrs Whiggins said:

One of the best non chemical treatments I've ever done once our St. A starts greening is to mow twice a week. The grass gets really thick and that aids in less opportunity for both germination and being able to spot the rando weed that popped through.

genuinely it makes a huge difference mowing 2x a week

[troph 24854]

On 3/18/2024 at 12:34 PM, Mrs Whiggins said:

One of the best non chemical treatments I've ever done once our St. A starts greening is to mow twice a week. The grass gets really thick and that aids in less opportunity for both germination and being able to spot the rando weed that popped through.

 

On 3/20/2024 at 10:46 AM, NoName said:

genuinely it makes a huge difference mowing 2x a week

Not sure I can swing it but I might try in April. Right now it’s still emerging. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 hours ago, troph said:

 

Not sure I can swing it but I might try in April. Right now it’s still emerging. 

I had surgery this week so I haven't done twice weekly mows yet either. Normally I really get it going in April through the summer months and then if we get that awful awful heat then adjust accordingly. Last year was brutal on lawns.

[troph 24854]

1 minute ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I had surgery this week so I haven't done twice weekly mows yet either. Normally I really get it going in April through the summer months and then if we get that awful awful heat then adjust accordingly. Last year was brutal on lawns.

I went ahead and put corn gluten down to stop anything else (futile I’m sure) and now am waiting for the April growth surge. I’ve got a good natural 8-2-4 organic fertilizer to spread in about 10 days too. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Part of our lawn is trash because we have a new fence install but I'm kinda ambivalent about the effort thus far (i.e. I'm getting some blowback about overdoing with resodding, etc due to the surgery and I get that because it's coming from concern that I'm going to actually overdo which is not inaccurate with me). I'm leaning towards the prudent which is to spread some spanghum peat over the worst spots and perhaps a few strips of new sod and call it a day until, as you point out, the April/May grass flex and reassess. Already dropped some fertilizer last weekend because we had that rain forecast and trying to work around the doctor stuff.

[troph 24854]

11 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Part of our lawn is trash because we have a new fence install but I'm kinda ambivalent about the effort thus far (i.e. I'm getting some blowback about overdoing with resodding, etc due to the surgery and I get that because it's coming from concern that I'm going to actually overdo which is not inaccurate with me). I'm leaning towards the prudent which is to spread some spanghum peat over the worst spots and perhaps a few strips of new sod and call it a day until, as you point out, the April/May grass flex and reassess. Already dropped some fertilizer last weekend because we had that rain forecast and trying to work around the doctor stuff.

I don’t know about spanghum peat.
 

Ours is a new lawn, looks like we lost really small spots all over to the winter not entirely sure if that or just still coming out of dormancy. Weeds are everywhere rn. It’s distressing but I’m in it organic style for the long haul. 
 

thinking about composting food scraps now too. Soil quality being the best way to go. Gotta reduce that methane footprint too. Not ready to tackle that project yet.

Edited March 25 by troph

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I understand. The peat is for a couple of spot that are very likely TAAR in our St. Augustine. We were gone for the early part of the summer last year and it took hold before we returned. It wasn't cinch bugs as we checked via the usual methods and the spanghum is one of the least invasive ways to enrich the soil/benefit of the doubt with respect to that IMO.

[troph 24854]

I know this is a St A thread but we have zoysia (not immune to root rot). Hopefully by May it’s humming. 

Edited March 25 by troph

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

I know this is a St A thread but we have zoysia (not immune to root rot). Hopefully by May it’s humming. 

Something I've considered as it has its positives but I'm going to have to fight that battle another day.

[Bevo 13579]

Our front yard is a problem. Our neighbor planted a tree on the edge of their property and it shades our property. We sodded maybe 5 years ago and each year our bermuda grass thins because of lack of sunlight. It pisses me off, but I don't think I have any options.

 

[freyguy 4278]

I scalped mine last week and mulched up all the fallen oak leaves with it.  I've got a guy coming in a week or two to aerate & spread out dillo dirt to help relevel and feed the yard.  Should put me on the right path until the next freeze...ugh

[NoName 16354]

17 hours ago, troph said:

 

Not sure I can swing it but I might try in April. Right now it’s still emerging. 

yeah, give it time for full green up and then cut it high (1/3rd rule)

[troph 24854]

36 minutes ago, freyguy said:

I scalped mine last week and mulched up all the fallen oak leaves with it.  I've got a guy coming in a week or two to aerate & spread out dillo dirt to help relevel and feed the yard.  Should put me on the right path until the next freeze...ugh

Until the next heat freeze you mean? 

[freyguy 4278]

1 hour ago, troph said:

Until the next heat freeze you mean? 

don't know whether to laugh or cry at that.....

[Updawg 2268]

Until the next heat freeze you mean? 

Yeah, I’m starting to think this has taken a toll on my st aug lawn. Was always in great condition with few weeds until the last 2 years or so. I need to get on it and get it back into shape

I’ve always been organic and it worked great. Although I haven’t had it aerated and top dressed with Dillo dirt in a few years. Probably should get that done

In the past it was always healthy enough to choke out the weeds but that’s slowly changing the past few years I’ve noticed

[NoRagrets 1125]

If I plant zoysia in the same yard as the st Aug, will it eventually take over? That’s kinda my hope. 

[cactusflinthead 27601]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:59 PM, troph said:

went ahead and put corn gluten down to stop anything

I'd love to tell you that it works but nobody has been able to get Nick Christians' results.

 

 

Research at Oregon State University showed that corn gluten meal did not prevent weed seed germination. Here is an excerpt from the study’s findings:

“Corn gluten meal did not control any weeds in any trials under any circumstances over a two-year period. They found no evidence of pre- or post-emergence weed control in any of their trials. Because it contains 10 percent nitrogen, corn gluten meal proved to be a very effective fertilizer, causing lush, dense growth of turfgrass and of weeds in shrub beds.”

https://depts.washington.edu/hortlib/pal/on-corn-gluten-based-weed-killers/#:~:text=“Corn gluten meal did not,in any of their trials.

[cactusflinthead 27601]

On 2/25/2024 at 3:03 PM, Irish Wrist Watch said:

one someone gave me is made by roundup, actually - not the traditional kill-everything Roundup. I suppose there's a case to be made for the broadleaf killer to affect the St. Augustine roots. (I'm seeing some green blades,

The standard broadleaf spray is a three chem combination. It is sometimes spiked with other things. But, the base triple action/three-way/strike3/Trimec/weed-b-gon is the same. It's exactly the same product that I use commercially. The exceptions being the concentration and volume. If you can get used to reading the fine print on the label of the active ingredients and giving the brand name a passing glance you will be better off.

The same three, 2,4-D, dicamba, and mecoprop, appear nearly universally in broadleaf sprays. I am seeing triclopyr in the retail side more these days. There is one called Speed zone that has an extra kicker called carfentrazone. It's not ok for StA. It can be used on bermudagrass and zoysia. 

There are others though. They are more expensive. However, I can use them for a wider range of targets. 

How Celsius Herbicide Works

Celsius postemergent herbicide contains three active ingredients. Dicamba penetrates the weed and translocates throughout its system, immediately stopping growth. Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium is a selective chemical and most effective on young weeds. Thiencarbazone-methyl is the third ingredient and inhibits photosynthesis. Without this process, the weed cannot survive and dies within a few weeks. Once applied, Celsius stops weed growth in a few hours and total weed death in a week or so. (Emphasis on the OR SO part there Mr. Salesman)

 

https://heritageppg.com/products/celsius-herbicide

Note the price. 125.80 for 10oz. 

On the environmental impact. No joke. 

ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
This product is toxic to non-target plants. Non-target plants may be adversely affected if the product is allowed to drift from
the areas of application. Avoid spray drift from treated area. Do not apply when conditions favor drift from treated areas. Do
not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark.
Do not contaminate water when cleaning equipment or disposing of equipment washwaters or rinsate. Do not drain or rinse
equipment near desirable vegetation. Refer to the Spray Drift Management section of this label for additional information.
This product may impact surface water quality due to runoff of rain water. This is especially true for poorly draining soils
and soils with shallow ground water. This product is classified as having “high potential for reaching surface water via
runoff,” according to the chemical’s “mean” soil partition coefficient (Kd) for several days after application. A level well-
maintained vegetative buffer strip between areas to which this product is applied and surface water features such as ponds,
streams, and springs will reduce the potential loading of this herbicide from runoff water and sediment. Runoff of this product
will be reduced by avoiding applications when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48 hours.
Some of the chemicals in this product have properties and characteristics associated with chemicals detected in ground
water. These chemicals may leach into ground water if used in areas where soils are permeable...

 

[troph 24854]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'd love to tell you that it works but nobody has been able to get Nick Christians' results.

 

 

Research at Oregon State University showed that corn gluten meal did not prevent weed seed germination. Here is an excerpt from the study’s findings:

“Corn gluten meal did not control any weeds in any trials under any circumstances over a two-year period. They found no evidence of pre- or post-emergence weed control in any of their trials. Because it contains 10 percent nitrogen, corn gluten meal proved to be a very effective fertilizer, causing lush, dense growth of turfgrass and of weeds in shrub beds.”

https://depts.washington.edu/hortlib/pal/on-corn-gluten-based-weed-killers/#:~:text=“Corn gluten meal did not,in any of their trials.

Well then I’ll be out there picking weeds. I’m just not up for chemicals absent compelling data showing that there are no ill effects on the soil, insects, water, or otherwise.

Edited April 4 by troph

[cactusflinthead 27601]

Just now, troph said:

Well then I’ll be out there picking weeds. I’m just not up for chemicals. 

There are some that are iron based. I haven't used them. But, I can see that if they do make it out of field trials they could be really popular with the chemically  reluctant. 

Few alternatives exist to using the chemical herbicide 2,4-D and its allies to reduce broadleaf weeds in turfgrass or glyphosphate in landscapes. Currently, there are approximately five iron-based commercial products registered by the EPA's Biopesticide Division and labeled for broadleaf weed control. Demand will likely result in additional iron-based herbicides being brought onto the market. These selective, broadleaf herbicides contain the active ingredient chelated iron. Fundamentally, these iron (Fe) products are similar to liquid products that treat micronutrient deficiencies in plants and are considered mineral based materials.

----

Testing needs to be conducted on warm season grasses such as Bermuda and zoysia. 

https://extension.umd.edu/resource/iron-based-herbicides

[NoName 16354]

14 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

The standard broadleaf spray is a three chem combination. It is sometimes spiked with other things. But, the base triple action/three-way/strike3/Trimec/weed-b-gon is the same. It's exactly the same product that I use commercially. The exceptions being the concentration and volume. If you can get used to reading the fine print on the label of the active ingredients and giving the brand name a passing glance you will be better off.

The same three, 2,4-D, dicamba, and mecoprop, appear nearly universally in broadleaf sprays. I am seeing triclopyr in the retail side more these days. There is one called Speed zone that has an extra kicker called carfentrazone. It's not ok for StA. It can be used on bermudagrass and zoysia. 

There are others though. They are more expensive. However, I can use them for a wider range of targets. 

How Celsius Herbicide Works

Celsius postemergent herbicide contains three active ingredients. Dicamba penetrates the weed and translocates throughout its system, immediately stopping growth. Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium is a selective chemical and most effective on young weeds. Thiencarbazone-methyl is the third ingredient and inhibits photosynthesis. Without this process, the weed cannot survive and dies within a few weeks. Once applied, Celsius stops weed growth in a few hours and total weed death in a week or so. (Emphasis on the OR SO part there Mr. Salesman)

 

https://heritageppg.com/products/celsius-herbicide

Note the price. 125.80 for 10oz. 

On the environmental impact. No joke. 

ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS
This product is toxic to non-target plants. Non-target plants may be adversely affected if the product is allowed to drift from
the areas of application. Avoid spray drift from treated area. Do not apply when conditions favor drift from treated areas. Do
not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark.
Do not contaminate water when cleaning equipment or disposing of equipment washwaters or rinsate. Do not drain or rinse
equipment near desirable vegetation. Refer to the Spray Drift Management section of this label for additional information.
This product may impact surface water quality due to runoff of rain water. This is especially true for poorly draining soils
and soils with shallow ground water. This product is classified as having “high potential for reaching surface water via
runoff,” according to the chemical’s “mean” soil partition coefficient (Kd) for several days after application. A level well-
maintained vegetative buffer strip between areas to which this product is applied and surface water features such as ponds,
streams, and springs will reduce the potential loading of this herbicide from runoff water and sediment. Runoff of this product
will be reduced by avoiding applications when rainfall is forecasted to occur within 48 hours.
Some of the chemicals in this product have properties and characteristics associated with chemicals detected in ground
water. These chemicals may leach into ground water if used in areas where soils are permeable...

 

if anyone has st aug and are looking for something that works on a broad spectrum, use Celcius. i do more spot spraying vs broadcast spraying these days but it absolutely works

Edited April 4 by NoName

[former alkie 72]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:51 AM, Bevo said:

Our front yard is a problem. Our neighbor planted a tree on the edge of their property and it shades our property. We sodded maybe 5 years ago and each year our bermuda grass thins because of lack of sunlight. It pisses me off, but I don't think I have any options.

 

That's a real shit move by your neighbor.........planting a tree which will ultimately effect their neighbors lawn, without discussing with the neighbor beforehand.

You could gently hammer some copper nails into the base of that tree in the eyes of darkness.......that'll remedy your situation in due time.