Open Borders

[77horn 216]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

And that would be a bad argument, because even if you aren't paid enough to qualify for income taxes, payroll tax is still paid on your income.

And it comes out of your paycheck.  No reported income, no payroll tax. The one and only trigger for payroll tax is reporting income.  Your saying it isn't a tax on income is ludicrous. 

But go ahead, wail and gnash your teeth,  type diatribes, falsehoods and ladle on the ad hominems.  Being angry seems to be your talent.

[David Dennison 18849]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oh piss off.  Everyone knows what I or anyone means when they say paying taxes, unless you're just a complete tool, trying to evade honest discussion.

And you know perfectly well that the poor pay taxes yet you continue to argue in a manner that suggests otherwise.

Talk about dishonest.

[bad_teammate 13189]

Just now, 77horn said:

And it comes out of your paycheck. 

Yes, which means that you pay them even if you don't pay the actual income tax, so the poor very often do pay a ton of taxes even if they fall under the threshhold for the federal income tax.

"Payroll tax"es and the actual income tax cannot simply be bundled together. It's way too complicated. Your argument was stupid, sorry if pointing that out hurts your feelings.

[ChickenSandwich 9826]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And that would be a bad argument, because even if you aren't paid enough to qualify for income taxes, payroll tax is still paid on your income. But I'm sure OnBoard will be excited, because he's dumb.

You ate just completely incapable of haveing an honest good faith conversation on a topic. Just a fraud of a poster. You run in circles when called on your bullshit. 

The very opening post contradicts the rest of the thread. You are infact arguing for “open borders” while trying to play word games to convince otherwise. And of course crying racism  

How do you factor the $25 billion in remittances the economy loses each year as well?

More than half of all immigrant households receive welfare

51% to 30% of immigrant households vs native on welfare. 

W/ children the number grows to 71% to 52%

USA Today: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/71517072

 

[ChickenSandwich 9826]

How can we help our 30 and 70 percent with living wages or universal healthcare when these numbers are growing at an uncontrolled rate?  250k anchor babies per year,   nearly 40million illegal citizens already here.  

We can’t figure out how to help 7500 homeless people in SF spending $37k a year on each one. 70% of those are from unemployment. We have huge money issues you never address. How does adding more takers than earners sustain itself?

Edited July 21, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[David Dennison 18849]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

You ate just completely incapable of haveing an honest good faith conversation on a topic. Just a fraud of a poster. You run in circles when called on your bullshit. 

The very opening post contradicts the rest of the thread. You are infact arguing for “open borders” while trying to play word games to convince otherwise. And of course crying racism  

How do you factor the $25 billion in remittances the economy loses each year as well?

More than half of all immigrant households receive welfare

51% to 30% of immigrant households vs native on welfare. 

W/ children the number grows to 71% to 52%

USA Today: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/71517072

 

Still not open borders. 

[The People’s Elbow 707]

This was a pretty interesting thread until Onboard showed up. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

20 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And you know perfectly well that the poor pay taxes yet you continue to argue in a manner that suggests otherwise.

Talk about dishonest.

The poor do not pay income tax like normal wage earners, no they don't.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

14 minutes ago, The People’s Elbow said:

This was a pretty interesting thread until Onboard showed up. 

Yeah, when the facts bow up your unicorn farm life kinda sucks don't it.

[David Dennison 18849]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The poor do not pay income tax like normal wage earners, no they don't.

But that's not why you said. It's not what anyone on the right ever says when they talk about the poor and taxes. The poor in this country pay plenty of taxes. That's why the federal government cuts them a break on income taxes. Because they're poor.

[Dbeasy 15042]

Did I read bad_teammate’s post correctly that any immigration policy to limit immigration is racist? Is that what you intended to post, bad_teammate?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

But that's not why you said. It's not what anyone on the right ever says when they talk about the poor and taxes. The poor in this country pay plenty of taxes. That's why the federal government cuts them a break on income taxes. Because they're poor.

Jesus, you probably  turn over the Monopoly board when you get caught on Board walk.  Such a little child, trying to play Gotcha, when you have nothing too back up your empty argument.

 

Everyone pays consumer taxes, gas tax, SS, Payroll taxes. Not everyone pays additional income tax on April 15. That number is in the 10's of millions, and yet you want to add more people to those rolls.....

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Dbeasy said:

Did I read bad_teammate’s post correctly that any immigration policy to limit immigration is racist? Is that what you intended to post, bad_teammate?

Dude, anything anyone does is racially motivated  (escort by BT of course). Moose out front should have told ya.

[David Dennison 18849]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Jesus, you probably  turn over the Monopoly board when you get caught on Board walk.  Such a little child, trying to play Gotcha, when you have nothing too back up your empty argument.

Everyone pays consumer taxes, gas tax, SS, Payroll taxes. Not everyone pays additional income tax on April 15. That number is in the 10's of millions, and yet you want to add more people to those rolls.....

It sounds like you envy the poor for not having to pay income taxes.

What is wrong with you?

 

[The People’s Elbow 707]

23 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, when the facts bow up your unicorn farm life kinda sucks don't it.

Is that like bow and apologize? That’s a good thing now, right? 

[RandomIdoit 655]

The same people who say the poor in this country have it bad and need more help are the same ones advocating to add more poor people to the pot. I do not believe that they contribute more in taxes than they take from the government. 

[77horn 216]

44 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, which means that you pay them even if you don't pay the actual income tax, so the poor very often do pay a ton of taxes even if they fall under the threshhold for the federal income tax.

"Payroll tax"es and the actual income tax cannot simply be bundled together. It's way too complicated. Your argument was stupid, sorry if pointing that out hurts your feelings.

Its not that complicated actually. You just refuse ever admit a mistake because, lord knows you are perfect and have the wisdom of the ages and own the internet.  the only thing complicated about it is the pretzel you twist your  bad thought process into.  

You made a simple, yet misleading statement.  " Income tax accounts for less than half of federal tax income."    I guess you read that in your daily Anarchists Talking Points Memo.

Then you cry about "It's way too complicated."  Yes the tax labeled personal income tax is less than 50%.  But you actually said "Income Tax".  You're so full of yourself that you can't see that by point out that when you consider all taxes on income, I actually bolstered your main point which I assumed was that when immigrants are recognized with a legitimate (vague term, I know) status, they pay more taxes that most think about, but being considered "illegal" forces them into an underground economy.

But I stand by my statement that payroll taxes are a tax on income...If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck....You want to call it too complicated.  but maybe your just an angry simpleton.

[RayDog 682]

A lot of undocumented immigrants do file tax returns using fake SSNs, although I do not know the percentage. They file because they want to pay their fair share. They also file because it is the best documentation that they lived and worked here and it can be important whenever an amnesty program is passed based on years of residence.

A friend who used to work for the IRS told me he has seen the same SSN used 12 times or more. They just add a dash and a number to it. 

[scottsins 1966]

4 minutes ago, RayDog said:

A lot of undocumented immigrants do file tax returns using fake SSNs, although I do not know the percentage. They file because they want to pay their fair share. They also file because it is the best documentation that they lived and worked here and it can be important whenever an amnesty program is passed based on years of residence.

A friend who used to work for the IRS told me he has seen the same SSN used 12 times or more. They just add a dash and a number to it. 

The guy that mows my yard had some individual taxpayer ID number that he used instead of an SSN, in order to report and pay income tax.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, RandomIdoit said:

The same people who say the poor in this country have it bad and need more help are the same ones advocating to add more poor people to the pot. I do not believe that they contribute more in taxes than they take from the government. 

We don't care for the poor here now, and these idiots want to add more to the roles.  When we've provided adequately for the folks here now, you know actual citizens, then talk to me about dealing g with illegal aliens and their plight.

[David Dennison 18849]

1 hour ago, RandomIdoit said:

The same people who say the poor in this country have it bad and need more help are the same ones advocating to add more poor people to the pot. I do not believe that they contribute more in taxes than they take from the government. 

So what?

[cmontexas 3270]

1 hour ago, RayDog said:

A lot of undocumented immigrants do file tax returns using fake SSNs, although I do not know the percentage. They file because they want to pay their fair share. They also file because it is the best documentation that they lived and worked here and it can be important whenever an amnesty program is passed based on years of residence.

A friend who used to work for the IRS told me he has seen the same SSN used 12 times or more. They just add a dash and a number to it. 

When I used to work at a restaurant all the cooks had fake ssn's/identities that they used to get hired. I worked with a guy named Jose at chilis during the lunch shifts that was named Hector at BW3 working with my roommates.

[bad_teammate 13189]

19 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

How can we help our 30 and 70 percent with living wages or universal healthcare when these numbers are growing at an uncontrolled rate?  250k anchor babies per year,   nearly 40million illegal citizens already here.  

We can’t figure out how to help 7500 homeless people in SF spending $37k a year on each one. 70% of those are from unemployment. We have huge money issues you never address. How does adding more takers than earners sustain itself?

It's not about us being unable to figure it out, it's about our hatred of the poor, minorities, and addicted. These are all solvable problems if we have the political will, which we do not. We're a nation that takes children from their mothers, shove those children in abandoned office buildings, and abuse them. It's not that we can't "figure out" how to stop kidnapping and abusing kids. It's about our national morals and pieces of shit like you who have none.

18 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

Did I read bad_teammate’s post correctly that any immigration policy to limit immigration is racist? Is that what you intended to post, bad_teammate?

I challenged someone to offer non-racist arguments against immigration. Two interesting ones have been offered (water use and impact on blacks), but neither is really all that compelling.

Most of the arguments people make against immigration are built on racist presumptions. Are you reading this thread?

"anchor babies"

"takers"

All that shit is built on racist characterizations.

18 hours ago, 77horn said:

You made a simple, yet misleading statement.  " Income tax accounts for less than half of federal tax income." 

A true statement based on someone else's argument about income taxes.

Quote

Then you cry about "It's way too complicated."

You tried to equate income taxes and payroll taxes, and you're wrong. They aren't the same and can't be bundled together. It's not about crying, it's about you making a stupid argument.

[RandomIdoit 655]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Most of the arguments people make against immigration are built on racist presumptions. Are you reading this thread?

"anchor babies"

"takers"

All that shit is built on racist characterizations.

There is nothing racist about it. Russian and Chinese people are having anchor babies too. The argument I read on here all of the time is that the immigrants will come here and do the jobs that citizens won't do. From my experience, that is true but many of these jobs are not high paying and probably will not get them above the poverty line. A family of 4 with only one member working would need to have an hourly wage of more than $12 an hour just to be at poverty level. So if they take some $10 per hour job, they will be on government assistance.

[bad_teammate 13189]

2 hours ago, RandomIdoit said:

There is nothing racist about it. Russian and Chinese people are having anchor babies too. The argument I read on here all of the time is that the immigrants will come here and do the jobs that citizens won't do. From my experience, that is true but many of these jobs are not high paying and probably will not get them above the poverty line. A family of 4 with only one member working would need to have an hourly wage of more than $12 an hour just to be at poverty level. So if they take some $10 per hour job, they will be on government assistance.

All you're arguing here is that the wealth created by this economy is not equitable shared with the workers who produce the wealth. Which... yeah, of course.

You're not making any kind of argument about a suffering economy that results from mass immigration (because you literally couldn't, because immigrants are unarguably good for the economy overall).

[RandomIdoit 655]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

All you're arguing here is that the wealth created by this economy is not equitable shared with the workers who produce the wealth. Which... yeah, of course.

You're not making any kind of argument about a suffering economy that results from mass immigration (because you literally couldn't, because immigrants are unarguably good for the economy overall).

I'm arguing that calling them takers is not a racist presumption, as you stated. The race of a person is not an issue when it comes to the burden placed on the state to provide welfare for poor people. Adding more people who more than likely will be under or at the poverty level, is only going to strain the system more. Where is all of this money going to come from? How much extra tax revenue is generated from someone below the poverty level? Will it be enough to cover the amount of benefits they take from the government? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, RandomIdoit said:

I'm arguing that calling them takers is not a racist presumption, as you stated. The race of a person is not an issue when it comes to the burden placed on the state to provide welfare for poor people. Adding more people who more than likely will be under or at the poverty level, is only going to strain the system more. Where is all of this money going to come from? How much extra tax revenue is generated from someone below the poverty level? Will it be enough to cover the amount of benefits they take from the government? 

Unicorns will fly it on nightly like the Berlin airlift.

[bad_teammate 13189]

1 minute ago, RandomIdoit said:

I'm arguing that calling them takers is not a racist presumption, as you stated.

Yes, it is, because it's not backed by basic logic.

Quote

The race of a person is not an issue when it comes to the burden placed on the state to provide welfare for poor people.

The fact that working people would even qualify to receive welfare benefits is not an indictment of the working people, it's an indictment of the way the wealth created by their labor is distributed.

Quote

Adding more people who more than likely will be under or at the poverty level, is only going to strain the system more. Where is all of this money going to come from? How much extra tax revenue is generated from someone below the poverty level? Will it be enough to cover the amount of benefits they take from the government? 

From the people who are amassing wealth off the work of underpaid people. If we do not have these people to do the labor that creates wealth, our economy shrinks.

[RandomIdoit 655]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

The fact that working people would even qualify to receive welfare benefits is not an indictment of the working people, it's an indictment of the way the wealth created by their labor is distributed.

From the people who are amassing wealth off the work of underpaid people. If we do not have these people to do the labor that creates wealth, our economy shrinks.

Let's say I agree with everything that you said (I don't). The system does not work and it is bad for poor people is your argument right? Then why add more people who will create more wealth for the people who are benefiting from said people? 

[bad_teammate 13189]

16 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

Let's say I agree with everything that you said (I don't). The system does not work and it is bad for poor people is your argument right? Then why add more people who will create more wealth for the people who are benefiting from said people? 

Because their families are suffering extreme poverty and violence and I want them to have an opportunity for a better life.

Remember, I'm not the one arguing that we're being crushed under the weight of needy takers. Immigrants help the economy overall, not even conservative economists can deny that. So let them come and grow our economy and then work on a more equitable distribution of the wealth they create. I think they make our country better.

I would love to hear  your specific disagreement with my acknowledgement of the massive wealth gap in this nation. That should be interesting.

[RandomIdoit 655]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Because their families are suffering extreme poverty and violence and I want them to have an opportunity for a better life.

Remember, I'm not the one arguing that we're being crushed under the weight of needy takers. Immigrants help the economy overall, not even conservative economists can deny that. So let them come and grow our economy and then work on a more equitable distribution of the wealth they create. I think they make our country better.

I would love to hear  your specific disagreement with my acknowledgement of the massive wealth gap in this nation. That should be interesting.

There is a huge wealth gap, but adding more poor people to the population is only going to widen the gap and at the same time adding to the welfare rolls. How do you feel about the people who are already in this country that want a better life? Why are they ignored?

[bad_teammate 13189]

1 minute ago, RandomIdoit said:

There is a huge wealth gap, but adding more poor people to the population is only going to widen the gap and at the same time adding to the welfare rolls. How do you feel about the people who are already in this country that want a better life? Why are they ignored?

Ignored by whom?

We should allow very easy immigration and we should shrink the wealth gap. We should do both.

[David Dennison 18849]

4 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

There is a huge wealth gap, but adding more poor people to the population is only going to widen the gap and at the same time adding to the welfare rolls. How do you feel about the people who are already in this country that want a better life? Why are they ignored?

They aren't.

[RandomIdoit 655]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Ignored by whom?

We should allow very easy immigration and we should shrink the wealth gap. We should do both.

You complain about the wealth gap but want to add more poor people. How is that going to shrink the wealth gap? Adding more poor people is counterproductive to your goal in my opinion.

[RandomIdoit 655]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They aren't.

They aren't? So everyone is prospering and no one is at or below the poverty level? If not, then we should get them squared away first before adding more. 

[bad_teammate 13189]

Just now, RandomIdoit said:

You complain about the wealth gap but want to add more poor people. How is that going to shrink the wealth gap?

Reducing, freezing, or expanding immigration will not have an impact on the wealth gap. Those are separate (but related) issues.

[Clob94 121]

24 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Because their families are suffering extreme poverty and violence and I want them to have an opportunity for a better life.

Remember, I'm not the one arguing that we're being crushed under the weight of needy takers. Immigrants help the economy overall, not even conservative economists can deny that. So let them come and grow our economy and then work on a more equitable distribution of the wealth they create. I think they make our country better.

I would love to hear  your specific disagreement with my acknowledgement of the massive wealth gap in this nation. That should be interesting.

Immigrants are good for the economy. But like anything else, too many immigrants will have a negative impact on the economy. To think otherwise just shows a basic lack of understanding of grade school economics. 

 

So, what's your number? 

[RandomIdoit 655]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Reducing, freezing, or expanding immigration will not have an impact on the wealth gap. Those are separate (but related) issues.

Didn't you just say this:

43 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

From the people who are amassing wealth off the work of underpaid people.

So when you add more people, there is more competition for these jobs and they can afford to pay them less. They pay them less and they make more money. Then the people that lose out on those jobs are even more poor. How does it not impact the wealth gap?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacism

[bad_teammate 13189]

4 minutes ago, RandomIdoit said:

So when you add more people, there is more competition for these jobs and they can afford to pay them less. They pay them less and they make more money. Then the people that lose out on those jobs are even more poor. How does it not impact the wealth gap?

"We cannot put your arm in a cast because the cancer we're treating is a bigger threat!" - the smartest doctors

- Economic reforms to fight wealth inequality
- Safe and easy paths to citizenship for non-criminals

Do both.

5 minutes ago, Clob94 said:

Immigrants are good for the economy. But like anything else, too many immigrants will have a negative impact on the economy. To think otherwise just shows a basic lack of understanding of grade school economics. 

So, what's your number? 

It's not about an arbitrary number that politicians or Internet jagoffs would negotiate ahead of time. It's about keeping an eye on economic indicators as it plays out.

[Clob94 121]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"We cannot put your arm in a cast because the cancer we're treating is a bigger threat!" - the smartest doctors

- Economic reforms to fight wealth inequality
- Safe and easy paths to citizenship for non-criminals

Do both.

It's not about an arbitrary number that politicians or Internet jagoffs would negotiate ahead of time. It's about keeping an eye on economic indicators as it plays out.

And right now economic indicators are that we are approaching a correction in the market and economy (or that's what I'm being told by CNN and NBC business analysts). That would mean, by your own assertions that we would need to begin to curb the amount of immigrants allowed into the country legally, to offset the number coming illegally. So by your rationale, we would have to punish the immigrants trying to come here properly in order to adjust for the illegals coming here because of the economic tea leaves. This is using your metric. 

 

Surely there's a better solution. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

34 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacism

It's this ^^^^

[bad_teammate 13189]

33 minutes ago, Clob94 said:

And right now economic indicators are that we are approaching a correction in the market and economy (or that's what I'm being told by CNN and NBC business analysts). That would mean, by your own assertions that we would need to begin to curb the amount of immigrants allowed into the country legally, to offset the number coming illegally. So by your rationale, we would have to punish the immigrants trying to come here properly in order to adjust for the illegals coming here because of the economic tea leaves. This is using your metric. 

In what way was the coming market correction caused by immigration, legal or illegal? 

Our default stance should be very easy immigration and any restriction should have to be proven necessary with real, specific arguments.

[Incredulity 11650]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

In what way was the coming market correction caused by immigration, legal or illegal? 

Our default stance should be very easy immigration and any restriction should have to be proven necessary with real, specific arguments.

But no “open borders”?

[Clob94 121]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

In what way was the coming market correction caused by immigration, legal or illegal? 

Our default stance should be very easy immigration and any restriction should have to be proven necessary with real, specific arguments.

 It's about keeping an eye on economic indicators as it plays out.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ these are your words. You indicate that immigration should be determined by economic indicators. 

Translation-- when the economy is good we allow more legal immigration. When it's bad or predicted to be bad, we allow less. Where did you get that immigration is causing a market correction? Where did I imply that? Immigration should not be easy. It should be easier...... but nothing worth having should ever come too easy. 

 

[bad_teammate 13189]

6 minutes ago, Clob94 said:

 It's about keeping an eye on economic indicators as it plays out.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ these are your words. You indicate that immigration should be determined by economic indicators. 

Translation-- when the economy is good we allow more legal immigration. When it's bad or predicted to be bad, we allow less. Where did you get that immigration is causing a market correction? Where did I imply that? Immigration should not be easy. It should be easier...... but nothing worth having should ever come too easy. 

 

Your translation is inaccurate.

Insofar as immigration impacts the economy, we should watch the indicators on those specific impacts.

"Good economy" or "bad economy" are not indicators of immigration is impacting the economy.

[Ramdiesel 109]

On 7/21/2018 at 9:53 AM, SubliminalHorn said:

Although your insurance talk is completely irrelevant to this conversation, why do you think they didn’t have insurance?

What’s your point regarding insurance?

and thank you, poor people do pay a lot of taxes. Maybe not income taxes, but neither do a lot of Americans. Are you equally outraged that many multi billion companies also don’t pay taxes? What about churches?

That's an awesome argument, a lot of American citizens dont pay income taxes so now we have to let thousands of immigrants into the country that arent going to pay income tax either....Great strategy their; especially, when our economy goes through the next recession and we got thousands more people that werent here before needing help...

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

15 minutes ago, Ramdiesel said:

That's an awesome argument, a lot of American citizens dont pay income taxes so now we have to let thousands of immigrants into the country that arent going to pay income tax either....Great strategy their; especially, when our economy goes through the next recession and we got thousands more people that werent here before needing help...

Misery loves company ?

 

[Enchubben 5510]

When the oxygen masks drop in a plane, they recommend adults put on their own first before helping others. Same principle, let’s fix our own before we fix others.how many homeless American children are on our streets?

Further, letting just anybody into our country without extreme vetting is just stupid when there are millions of people across the globe would like nothing less than to kill US civilians by any means necessary because of what America represents.

[Satchel 6925]

While Trump failed miserably in closing in on his campaign promise to get Mexico to pay for a yet to be constructed border wall, Biden has gotten Mexico to agree to pay for border security:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmEQzdV_MXk