Jump to content

The Kids (Aren't) Alright - World Happiness Report


Recommended Posts

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 2:24 PM, Anastasis said:

* More independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world

Expand  

So, so, so much this.

As parents looking back on our parenting, we're happy with -- and we see the dividends of -- our choices to let our kids do a good bit of that.  Of course, we're also self-critical: we could and should have done better.  But letting your kids exercise independence, make their own mistakes, learn shit, and figure it out, is key to making them into healthy functioning adults.  From letting the boy grab a .22 and wander off and explore (on foot, on an ATV) our friends' ranch when we're there to hunt/do work was great.  Him doing a gap year on his own in Berlin (after COVID and his own illness set his natural social development back) was....maybe the best parenting decision we've ever made.  He did a lot of growing up and developing: he had to navigate his own food, laundry, getting his full visa (that was all on him, and he had to do it in a second language; he did so well at his appointment that he also helped the Iraqi Kurdish guy with the appointment after his), he learned how to drink and act a fool and what it was like to drink too much ("Dad....I puked all over much of Kreuzburg"), he got in a serious relationship that he wasn't ready for, he ended it awkwardly and learned some shit about how do deal with women and feelings.  The daughter....we could have done better with.  At least on fishing trips, I let her handle her own shit, and didn't hover.  She sorted out her own gear issues, she fought, landed, and unhooked fish on her own.  But she was also the "straight and narrow" academic star, and she followed that path throughout.  That said, she has lived in multiple countries, moving there and handling all logistics pretty much on her own.  She can solve some pretty adult problems, but she is still learning to adult.  We helped her with her high anxiety, and worked to give her tools, but she is just now REALLY figuring out how to be fully responsible.  And watching her do it is killing me.....but the fact that she's doing it thousands of miles away helps.  I CAN'T hover.  She is going to feel stress, and fail, and succeed, on her own.  Which she has to do.  She MUST do.

Do little things to show them that they CAN do things independently.  Shit, the boy was 15 when we went to CDMX.  Our last night there in Condesa, he heard the oaxacan tamales cart go by, and said "man, I really want one again."  I said "well, there are pesos on the table, you speak enough spanish to order, and you can find him.  Pay attention to your surroundings, and go for it."  So he went out into the city on his own, at night, and wandered a few blocks until he found the bike.  He was proud as shit when he came back in with his tamales.  A really little thing, but I remember the decision, and how pleased he was to have navigated a foreign city, in a foreign language, at night, and got his business done.

So, we got it far from perfect.  But geez, we see some other families we know that are much more helicoptery.  Not granting kids much independence at all.  And I really think that college is going to be a shock to the system for those kids.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Posted

I’ve worked in a world renowned children’s hospital for almost a decade. The most ill-behaved, disrespectful, and emotionally/mentally stunted children I have ever seen in my life are the ones that have to have a screen in front of them at all times. It spans all races/religions/income brackets.

  • Hook 'Em 5
Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 3:59 PM, Js1 said:

Pfft big deal, who hasn’t 

Expand  

I'm more annoyed by the fact that he had a super cute Swedish gal who had fallen head over heels for him, and he ditched her because "it was just too much."  Number of cute Swedish girls old Brisket has had the opportunity to reject in his lifetime: 0.0.  Dumb little shit.

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Rage+1 1
Posted
  On 3/23/2024 at 3:05 AM, hayden_horn said:

i am gonna argue that it's lack of mental health care, specifically for vets and their families, that have the boomers (specifically but it goes all the way back to world war 1) all fucked in the head thinking that seeking mental health care somehow makes people soft.  that's how the cruelty became the point. 

Expand  

Johnny Sack, more than anyone on Surly, could really benefit from some therapy.  I suspect that's why he's so hostile to it. 

Posted

I think about that scene sometimes in "Mad Men" when Don was talking to his kids the night of the Kennedy Shooting.  And I think about when I was watching TV with my father when Reagan was shot by Hinkley.  I remember the state funerals of Ford and Nixon and Reagan and H.W. Bush like they were yesterday.  My cousin was a pall-bearer for Nancy Reagan's casket /csb.  I remember that moment when Bob Dole struggled to stand to salute H.W. Bush's casket.  It was a way that we, as children, onboarded the concept of death.  Among other means.  We all came together as a nation, as a people, to bury our heroes.  And then we lost pets, and grandparents, and aunts and uncles.  And we had no frame of online reference.  We merely gathered around the glowing Sony Trinitron.  There really is such a thing as "good" screen time.  Cronkite said as much.  

And this Autumn, we will all gather around the television set (albeit a flat and tall one /dangerfield).  And something once again...something wonderful will happen.  And our children will no longer have to live in so much fear.  

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 4:26 PM, BeardIP said:

Unfortunately, like everything else that is healthiest (and hard to do) for kids, the highest tally frequency of this behavior is found in the poorest demographics.

Expand  

This is completely opposite to what I have observed over the last several years.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted (edited)

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Edited by Snake Diggity
  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 6:45 PM, Snake Diggity said:

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Expand  

Don't know if your order is exactly correct....but it's close enough.  Great list.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 6:45 PM, Snake Diggity said:

Top 10 list of crises causing this, in order:

1. Resilience: this skews worse as you analyze younger generations.  This goes hand in hand with #2, and paired together is what I think is driving the woefully misguided anti-woke crowd.  A culture of victimhood has allowed people to justify wallowing in failure or defeat.  We need to teach young people that anything can be overcome, because it’s true, and even if it’s not true, believing that lie generally leads to a happier life than not.

2. Accountability: this is a major problem for all generations.  I am not sure the cause, but our society does an epically poor job of holding people accountable for their behavior.  I think a lot of people’s unhappiness is bred from an external locus of control mindset and a lack of accountability for their own happiness.  We need to teach young people that they are in control of and responsible for their own happiness.  To be accountable is to be empowered.

3. Empathy: I trace a lot of this back to the Internet and social media, but there seems to be a tremendous lack of empathy in our current society.  People seem to be more able than ever to block out how their actions affect others.  This spans all generations.

4. Dignity of work: Working has gotten a really bad rap.  Our society glorifies people who inherited wealth more than people who work hard and aren’t wealthy.  Workers are viewed as suckers.  That has to change.  This problems spans all current generations including the Boomers.

5. Disinformation: Media bias is a gigantic fucking problem.  Society went from less than a handful of sources of information, all of whom presented basically the same information, to infinite, contradictory sources.  Being unable to trust new information breeds a lot of problems that flow into this happiness metric.

6. Healthcare:  our healthcare system is utterly fucked and almost no one has quality, affordable, convenient healthcare.  This is a tough nut to crack.

7. Education: our education system is utterly fucked and middle and lower class young people are getting the major shaft.  Unlike healthcare, I believe money can easily address this problem.  A much lower student/teacher ratio and a much higher salary for teachers would go a LONG way to fixing this problem.

8. Climate: it’s hot as fuck all the time and that makes people unhappy.  Also, thinking about societal collapse in the next 100 years because their grandparents and parents weren’t willing to make even moderate sacrifices has gotta be depressing as fuck for young people.

9. Inequality: I think there’s a big gap and this issue is far less impactful than the ones above it on the list, but wealth consolidation is a major problem.  Access to capital is probably the biggest determinate in someone’s ability to achieve in our society.  It far outweighs other factors like talent and fortitude.  That has always been a problem in our crony capitalist society over the last 200 years, but it’s worse now than ever.

10. Demographic: I think demographic trends are already causing problems, but this is more a forward-looking issue than something that is causing current unhappiness, and there’s actually a chance this could end up being a good thing if technology and migration are properly managed.  But there’s a worldwide shortage of young people relative to old people, and that’s a problem.

Mass shootings didn’t make this list, even though I believe they cause young people a lot of unhappiness.  And even though I believe guns should be much harder to obtain and that our national priorities are totally out of whack on that issue, I do think if you solved #2, #3, and #7 on my list, you’d see a dramatic reduction in problems related to guns.

Expand  

Phones

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 2:24 PM, Anastasis said:

Haidt's thesis is much broader than just focussing on one particular type of website. It's the broader impact and balance between multiple factors during childhood psychological development. Social media is just one aspect. Independence, free play, and social interactions in the real world is another. An excerpt:

Here is a non-paywalled link to the Atlantic piece: https://archive.is/ZBCJl 

Baba alluded to Haidt's proposed four point solution:

* No smartphones before high school

* No social media before 16

* Phone-free schools

* More independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world

Expand  

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 8:08 PM, usmc0331horn said:

Phones

Expand  

Yeah, smartphones, social media, and the internet can be pegged as major source of most of the issues I listed.  

Narratives propagated online breed a lack of resilience, empathy, and accountability.  

The culture of excess and celebrity diminish the dignity of work.

The unregulated Internet breeds disinformation and misinformation.

And the 24/7 in-your-face nature of smartphones increases awareness of issues (climate change, war, inequality, etc.) and breeds a sense of powerlessness to address them.

In terms of what I think might be achievable ways to address these issues, I think an anti-smartphone/socialmedia campaign and legal accountability similar to what happened with cigarettes and smoking would be good.  We also need to poor a fucking fuckton more money into public education.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 4:59 PM, RollLeft said:

So of you motherfuckers really like to hear yourselves talk, fuck me.  

Expand  

It’s not talking; it’s typing.  You’re not listening, you’re reading.  Imagine what you and the next generation could be capable of with just a few lessons in vocabulary.  

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 9:34 PM, Thetexashammer said:

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

Expand  

I guess my problem with his framing is that he's also requiring you to accept that climate change, social inequality, and the breakdown of our democracy are things not all that worth getting upset about. His core thesis is "if people wouldn't look at their phones they wouldn't be upset with existential climate change".

It boils down all the gripes and genuine issues into an incredibly boomerific view of "it must be those newfangled cell phones that are the problem!"

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 10:45 PM, Captainant said:

I guess my problem with his framing is that he's also requiring you to accept that climate change, social inequality, and the breakdown of our democracy are things not all that worth getting upset about. His core thesis is "if people wouldn't look at their phones they wouldn't be upset with existential climate change".

It boils down all the gripes and genuine issues into an incredibly boomerific view of "it must be those newfangled cell phones that are the problem!"

Expand  

Yep.  I like Haidt, I do - I have The Righteous Mind on my bookshelf, read it a few years ago.  But my quibble with him is similar: he diminishes things that are actually a big fucking deal.  These aren't abstract things, they are things that have real-world implications and impacts, and actually affect people's lives.  Lots of people's lives.

Now, the fact that we are more AWARE of many of these things surely does affect overall mood.  But the counter to that is the cop-out take of "ignorance is bliss."  Sure, if I don't know there's an iceberg dead ahead, I enjoy dinner and dancing.  But if I DO know, that's right...I don't enjoy the dinner and dancing.  But I DO have a chance to go to the helm and try to get the captain to steer AWAY from the iceberg, saving a shitload of us a frosty death in the North Atlantic.  All in all, even though it's more stressful beforehand, I prefer the second option.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted (edited)
  On 3/25/2024 at 9:34 PM, Thetexashammer said:

Haidt says in this video: the world tells you "you are a balloon full of feelings and the world is full of pins". His ideas overlap 99% with Shrier, however, Shrier is much much hotter. Both are extremely evidence based.

Haidt also says in the video, about a dangerous playground: "This is good, because kids can get hurt. And that's crucial. Because if you can get hurt, then you learn how not to get hurt."

Expand  

Those are your two most important take aways from the hour plus long lecture?

Edited by Anastasis
Posted

If there is a criticism to make here, I think that his distinctions based on sex are somewhat superficial. Boys are very vulnerable to social comparison, in different ways of course than girls, but in some ways very similar. He moves past this too quickly. 

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 6:17 AM, Anastasis said:

Here is the context. 

 

 

Expand  

This makes more sense. He pointed out that the image that came to mind from the TexasHammer qoute was not what he meant. It's more of a criticism of the Fischer Price type playgrounds than a call for a return to the actual dangerous playgrounds we had in our childhood. However, the too safe playground he showed is used by toddlers. That seems a bit of an exaggeration.

This feels like it's directed at parents named Topher and Abigail that spend way too much time trying to pick a pre-k program.

Posted
  On 3/25/2024 at 11:21 PM, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  I like Haidt, I do - I have The Righteous Mind on my bookshelf, read it a few years ago.  But my quibble with him is similar: he diminishes things that are actually a big fucking deal.  These aren't abstract things, they are things that have real-world implications and impacts, and actually affect people's lives.  Lots of people's lives.

Now, the fact that we are more AWARE of many of these things surely does affect overall mood.  But the counter to that is the cop-out take of "ignorance is bliss."  Sure, if I don't know there's an iceberg dead ahead, I enjoy dinner and dancing.  But if I DO know, that's right...I don't enjoy the dinner and dancing.  But I DO have a chance to go to the helm and try to get the captain to steer AWAY from the iceberg, saving a shitload of us a frosty death in the North Atlantic.  All in all, even though it's more stressful beforehand, I prefer the second option.

Expand  

That's not at all what he's saying.  How many school ago children have a grasp or international, macro implications at a global scale?  Better yet, how many should?  He's talking about the growth and development of children being significantly impacted by a virtual reality that is having a detrimental impact to adolescents across the globe.  

How would you rate screen time on devices between geo-commentary and dopamine filled social media?  My guess is the latter would be the overwhelming amount of time vs. the former.

Nor are these mutually exclusive.  You want to have a conversation about geo-politics or the climate with your children, my guess is JH would suggest sitting around the dinner table as a family and do just that.  

Posted (edited)
  On 3/26/2024 at 3:52 PM, BeardIP said:

He does mention that actual dangerous playground had in childhood is better, in the interview. Here is the excerpt, bolded is my own emphasis:

DE: This reminded me of the part of the book that discusses the decline in ER visits, particularly among boys, because they’re not outside engaging in risky play as much. So does this indicate that, in a way, we might want some more broken bones? Not for their own sake, of course, but as indicators that kids are outside taking some risks that might get them hurt, but not permanently, and are important for development…

JH: That's right. So suppose you're running an elementary school, and you have a playground, and someone asks you: What is the optimal number of injuries per year at your school? injuries serious enough that it has to go beyond the school nurse. And my contention is that the optimum number is not zero. It's not going to be high. I wouldn't want 10 or 20. But if no one is getting injured, probably things are too safe. Because children need risk. They literally need risk. And when we deprive them of risk, we're preventing them from overcoming their anxieties, and learning how to manage risk. And so that was a stunning finding. Because the girls’ story was pretty clear, and social media is the central factor. The boys’ story was not as clear. And we gathered data — and by “we” I’m including Zach Rausch — on the effect of sports gambling on older boys, and marijuana use in boys, and pornography and other things. And we wanted to know: What’s going on? Why are the boys doing so badly even though they are not as depressed as the girls?

And what became clear is that boys had been withdrawing from the real world, from play and risk taking and adventure and challenge in the real world, the physical world with other kids. And they've been moving since the ‘80s into the virtual world as video games got better and better, as pornography got better and better. Boys are spending more time there, and with that, their personalities are changing. They are more risk averse. They are now as risk averse as girls their age used to be 20 years ago. It used to be the case when you look at who breaks a bone, who goes to the hospital for an injury, or a fall-related injury, it used to be that it was mostly teenage boys, followed by young men in their 20s. They were the risk takers. Older men and women don't break their bones very often. Well, that was true until 2010. In the 2010s, the rate for teenage boys has plunged so much that they are now less likely to injure themselves than a 50-year-old man, and they are less likely than teenage girls used to be 15 years ago. Because they're not doing anything that could lead to a broken bone. They're not riding bicycles, they're not wrestling, they're not running around. In order to play with their friends now, they go home alone, not over to a friend's house to play video games. You go home to your own headset and your own controller and your own screen. So some people might say, well, it's just as good because it's social. Yeah, it is social in the sense that you're talking to other other boys through your headset. But there's no actual risk taking. There's no fear. You're not overcoming any fears. You're not developing any skills that are of any use outside of the closed world of that video game. 

Expand  

Well, he is a regard if he thinks those old school playgrounds are better.

Edited by F250
Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:16 PM, BabaYaga said:

I think the general sentiment that nerfing the world for our kids is doing them a disservice.  

Expand  

Then references to a time when kids were dying or being permanently injured because of accidents should be discarded.

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 3:52 PM, BeardIP said:

He does mention that actual dangerous playground had in childhood is better, in the interview. Here is the excerpt, bolded is my own emphasis:

DE: This reminded me of the part of the book that discusses the decline in ER visits, particularly among boys, because they’re not outside engaging in risky play as much. So does this indicate that, in a way, we might want some more broken bones? Not for their own sake, of course, but as indicators that kids are outside taking some risks that might get them hurt, but not permanently, and are important for development…

JH: That's right. So suppose you're running an elementary school, and you have a playground, and someone asks you: What is the optimal number of injuries per year at your school? injuries serious enough that it has to go beyond the school nurse. And my contention is that the optimum number is not zero. It's not going to be high. I wouldn't want 10 or 20. But if no one is getting injured, probably things are too safe. Because children need risk. They literally need risk. And when we deprive them of risk, we're preventing them from overcoming their anxieties, and learning how to manage risk. And so that was a stunning finding. Because the girls’ story was pretty clear, and social media is the central factor. The boys’ story was not as clear. And we gathered data — and by “we” I’m including Zach Rausch — on the effect of sports gambling on older boys, and marijuana use in boys, and pornography and other things. And we wanted to know: What’s going on? Why are the boys doing so badly even though they are not as depressed as the girls?

And what became clear is that boys had been withdrawing from the real world, from play and risk taking and adventure and challenge in the real world, the physical world with other kids. And they've been moving since the ‘80s into the virtual world as video games got better and better, as pornography got better and better. Boys are spending more time there, and with that, their personalities are changing. They are more risk averse. They are now as risk averse as girls their age used to be 20 years ago. It used to be the case when you look at who breaks a bone, who goes to the hospital for an injury, or a fall-related injury, it used to be that it was mostly teenage boys, followed by young men in their 20s. They were the risk takers. Older men and women don't break their bones very often. Well, that was true until 2010. In the 2010s, the rate for teenage boys has plunged so much that they are now less likely to injure themselves than a 50-year-old man, and they are less likely than teenage girls used to be 15 years ago. Because they're not doing anything that could lead to a broken bone. They're not riding bicycles, they're not wrestling, they're not running around. In order to play with their friends now, they go home alone, not over to a friend's house to play video games. You go home to your own headset and your own controller and your own screen. So some people might say, well, it's just as good because it's social. Yeah, it is social in the sense that you're talking to other other boys through your headset. But there's no actual risk taking. There's no fear. You're not overcoming any fears. You're not developing any skills that are of any use outside of the closed world of that video game. 

Expand  

That guy sounds like an idiot. I grew up riding bikes, playing sports, having rock fights, playing the “who can get the most air jumping off the swing” game. Never broke one bone or saw any of my friends break one because we weren’t idiots or massive fucking pussies. And if you’re in charge of a school and someone asks what what “the optimal number of injuries” to your students is your answer better be zero. 

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:25 PM, utee94 said:

I'll agree that times were better when THESE were found on every elementary school playground.  Good luck trying to find one now...

image.png.d2fbae998cbbe2d4dbbf5b4a1d81c5b0.png

Expand  

i was on one recently with my kids.  2 got thrown off, i went another couple circles then blew ass right over where they were laying down.  haidt doesn't have anything to say about that.

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:25 PM, BabaYaga said:

You really think that's the message?

Expand  

The discussion was about a dangerous playground. Ana linked a video where Haidt stated he didn't mean the old school playgrounds. Donkey cigars then said Haidt did say the old dangerous playgrounds were better than the current ones. So yes, that is the conversation we are having.

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:52 PM, F250 said:

The discussion was about a dangerous playground. Ana linked a video where Haidt stated he didn't mean the old school playgrounds. Donkey cigars then said Haidt did say the old dangerous playgrounds were better than the current ones. So yes, that is the conversation we are having.

Expand  

So you don't think the conversation is around the damages of nerfing the world for our kids and using old playgrounds as an example?

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:20 PM, BeardIP said:

 

Right.

@F250, no offense, but he's shown his work to what's informed his opinion-- what are you basing your opinion(s) around this matter on? Any answer is good except the ole trusty @Brisketexan citation of secondhand experience and emotion.

Expand  

He literally said this isn't what I am talking about. There is a video of him talking about it a few posts above.

If what you say is true and he contradicts that statement than we are not talking about an informed opinion.

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 4:55 PM, BabaYaga said:

So you don't think the conversation is around the damages of nerfing the world for our kids and using old playgrounds as an example?

Expand  

My issue would be what is considered nerfing. Wearing helmets, seat belts, avoiding 20 ft jungle gyms built on asphalt?

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 6:09 PM, BeardIP said:

What? Nobody is saying any of that. 

Maybe it would be helpful to just replace that with "playing outside" and generally climbing, jumping, running, biking, sports-- any physical activity with inherent risk of physical injury.

Expand  

You didn't mention anything about Haidt saying that the old playgrounds that had 20 ft high jungle gyms that were built on asphalt were better than the current playgrounds?

You guys are dancing around in ambiguity. Nerfing, playing outside, physical activity, sports, etc...

 

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 6:33 PM, BeardIP said:

Serious question-- did you read the interview I posted of Haidt's own words?

Expand  

Yes and it didn't address the discussion we were having about what constitutes a too safe or too dangerous playground other than a statement about there should be some injuries. What does that even mean and how does one adjust for that?

 

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 6:09 PM, BeardIP said:

Maybe it would be helpful to just replace that with "playing outside" and generally climbing, jumping, running, biking, sports-- any physical activity with inherent risk of physical injury.

Expand  

Is it your contention that children do not do this sort of thing anymore? Wtf are you saying? This is some ridiculous hyperbole to say that children never go outside anymore and are depressed because they're on their phone so much

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 7:08 PM, F250 said:

Yes and it didn't address the discussion we were having about what constitutes a too safe or too dangerous playground other than a statement about there should be some injuries. What does that even mean and how does one adjust for that?

 

Expand  

Thank you for your perspective because it's addressing the rather blase attitude wherein Haidt as author/speaker should select his words more carefully or explain himself further and not just wave away thoughtful questions about consequences. With respect to Haidt, there are plenty of activities to which we introduced our children that did not require Jack, Simon, Ralph, and Piggy in order to learn about fear and risk.

 

 

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 1
Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 7:30 PM, BeardIP said:

That's not (only) my contention, but Haidt's. Which is what we were talking about. And of course people still go outside, but generally speaking and as a vast swath/trend we are talking about.

Expand  

I don't think that younger children free range now near as much as they did when I was growing up. I think that some are doing argument to absurdity here when they are discussing his work. Some of Haidt's formulations are certainly to blame for that. He appears to have a habit of glossing over and begging the question. But I do think that there is some merit in what he is saying and the themes. I don't think any reasonable person, and certainly no reasonable parent, denies that we have a critical mental health issue on our hands. It's good to be debating and looking for some answers and potential solutions.

Anyways, wrt to independent play....from the Atlantic article linked. 

One crucial aspect of play is physical risk taking. Children and adolescents must take risks and fail—often—in environments in which failure is not very costly. This is how they extend their abilities, overcome their fears, learn to estimate risk, and learn to cooperate in order to take on larger challenges later. The ever-present possibility of getting hurt while running around, exploring, play-fighting, or getting into a real conflict with another group adds an element of thrill, and thrilling play appears to be the most effective kind for overcoming childhood anxieties and building social, emotional, and physical competence. The desire for risk and thrill increases in the teen years, when failure might carry more serious consequences. Children of all ages need to choose the risk they are ready for at a given moment. Young people who are deprived of opportunities for risk taking and independent exploration will, on average, develop into more anxious and risk-averse adults.

Human childhood and adolescence evolved outdoors, in a physical world full of dangers and opportunities. Its central activities––play, exploration, and intense socializing––were largely unsupervised by adults, allowing children to make their own choices, resolve their own conflicts, and take care of one another. Shared adventures and shared adversity bound young people together into strong friendship clusters within which they mastered the social dynamics of small groups, which prepared them to master bigger challenges and larger groups later on.

And then we changed childhood.

The changes started slowly in the late 1970s and ’80s, before the arrival of the internet, as many parents in the U.S. grew fearful that their children would be harmed or abducted if left unsupervised. Such crimes have always been extremely rare, but they loomed larger in parents’ minds thanks in part to rising levels of street crime combined with the arrival of cable TV, which enabled round-the-clock coverage of missing-children cases. A general decline in social capital––the degree to which people knew and trusted their neighbors and institutions––exacerbated parental fears. Meanwhile, rising competition for college admissions encouraged more intensive forms of parenting. In the 1990s, American parents began pulling their children indoors or insisting that afternoons be spent in adult-run enrichment activities. Free play, independent exploration, and teen-hangout time declined.

In recent decades, seeing unchaperoned children outdoors has become so novel that when one is spotted in the wild, some adults feel it is their duty to call the police. In 2015, the Pew Research Center found that parents, on average, believed that children should be at least 10 years old to play unsupervised in front of their house, and that kids should be 14 before being allowed to go unsupervised to a public park. Most of these same parents had enjoyed joyous and unsupervised outdoor play by the age of 7 or 8.

But overprotection is only part of the story. The transition away from a more independent childhood was facilitated by steady improvements in digital technology, which made it easier and more inviting for young people to spend a lot more time at home, indoors, and alone in their rooms. Eventually, tech companies got access to children 24/7. They developed exciting virtual activities, engineered for “engagement,” that are nothing like the real-world experiences young brains evolved to expect.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 7:19 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

Are we sure that it’s the breaking bones or getting seriously injured part that’s good for kids and not the playing sports and running around outside part? 

Expand  

I don't think that anyone is arguing the former, unless I missed it. But certainly the latter, particularly team sports, can play a strong role is developing social experience, risk feedback, leadership traits and experiential insights into social dynamics. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted
  On 3/27/2024 at 12:30 PM, BeardIP said:
I think this is true at an intermediate level/age, but at the elementary age there is still a thriving rec sports league tied to the municipality/city and/or YMCA. There is probably an intermediate rec league option but, to your point, I think most people these days view it as a waste of time and poor investment of time given that we live in a shrinking time and attention economy these days.

My kid was in a neighborhood rec league for Tball. We joined a team, with a first year coach, and magically we ended up with more younger kids than other teams. Coaches on the top 2 teams had scouted players from previous seasons, and then had them request him to be their coach. They had fewer 4 yr olds and a team that could throw, hit and catch and execute double plays. Their team was just amazingly full of genetic freaks that also looked older on average than the typical 6 yr old.
Posted
  On 3/27/2024 at 12:30 PM, BeardIP said:

I think this is true at an intermediate level/age, but at the elementary age there is still a thriving rec sports league tied to the municipality/city and/or YMCA. There is probably an intermediate rec league option but, to your point, I think most people these days view it as a waste of time and poor investment of time given that we live in a shrinking time and attention economy these days.

Expand  

Of course recreational youth sport leagues still exist but they are losing numbers across the board as private sports organizations continue to grow. A consequence to the privatization of sports is that the barrier to entry prices out a big segment of the population. Participation in youth sports is actually high and growing for children from families that earn $100k and above but below that income the participation starts to drop off a lot.

There are recreational leagues that do well but they are usually not located in lower income areas.

Little League has been trying to stop the bleeding for years. It was about 10 years ago that they modified their rules to allow players to participate in travel and Little League at the same time and reduced the amount of required LL game participation and still qualify for All Stars. Families that have the resources to do both do not live in low income areas. This benefited the leagues in higher income areas.

Next year, Little League will begin removing their geographical boundary requirements and allow kids 7 and under to register with any LL league but will be locked in to that league for the remainder of their LL career. This will likely only benefit the higher income leagues and drain the already struggling leagues.

There are a lot more problems other than financial ones but money is definitely one of the biggest problems that is keeping kids from participating in team sports.

Posted
  On 3/26/2024 at 2:46 PM, BeardIP said:

The whole interview is good (interviewed by renowned author David Epstein), which I will spoiler for length, but this part stuck out to me:

DE: You had a quote in the book I wrote down related to this: “Social media platforms are the most efficient conformity engines ever invented. They can shape an adolescent’s mental models of acceptable behavior in a matter of hours, whereas parents can struggle unsuccessfully for years to get their children to sit up straight or stop whining.”

JH: Behavior psychology is really important here. Some of your readers will remember from an intro psych course B.F. Skinner and Ivan Pavlov — there's operant conditioning and classical conditioning, and both are at work here. But the key for a behavior’s conditioning is you have to have a loop between behavior and reward. When you watch television there's no such loop. You sit there, maybe you're entertained, maybe you're not. You can change the channel, you can raise the volume, that's about it. Those are your behaviors. But on a phone, you're endlessly presented with things to touch. And if you touch the right thing in the right way, you get a little hit. You get something that will give you a little hit of dopamine. It'll either be validation of your social standing, or it'll be entertainment, or it'll be funny, or it’ll be sexual. As a parent, if we could implant an electrode in our kids’ brains to give them a little bit of reward when they clean up their room, a little bit of punishment when they drop their underwear on the floor, we could train them very quickly to clean up their rooms — if we had that button to deliver a little bit of pleasure or pain. We don't have that button, but the rest of the world does. We basically say, once you put your kid on social media, you're saying to the rest of the world: “Hey, how about if you train my daughter? You give her rewards and punishments, and I'll just sit back and see what happens.” And the result is a generation of girls that are anxious, depressed, self-harming and suicidal. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Expand  

Is this in a podcast form? I've read about half of it but would love to listen to it if possible.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...