2024 Paris Summer Olympics - Death Squad

[billfromlaketravis 11564]

6 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Crazy stat from yesterday's game.  Jokic's +/- was 0 in a 26 point loss.  Score was 81-81 when he was in and 3-29 when he was out.

And Embiid was somehow -8 in his minutes.  

Center James Harden is an apt comparison. The guy actually said he’s the GOAT* if it weren’t for injuries in a recent NYT piece. 

He’s often injured because, you guessed it, he’s out of shape and carrying too much weight. 
 

I’d just roll with Bam at center. He doesn’t need the ball on offense and plays good defense. Thats exactly what Team USA needs. 

Edited July 30 by billfromlaketravis

[Derka 6374]

if AD weren’t so injury prone he’d probably have multiple mvps. he is so much better than embiid, and so much better than the average fan gives him credit for. his lame personality and alliance with lebron don't do him any favors either. but a healthy AD has been a top 5, perhaps no.1 best player in basketball for many years now. to start embiid over him is kind of a joke, but a)it doesn’t matter (or it least it shouldn’t matter) as we should run the table, and b)as long as he plays the major/end game minutes then who cares who starts/ 

[Fud 9559]

Kerr hates ball-stoppers/surveyors, which Tatum is. Also, it made sense to go guard heavy against Serbia. I think against lesser teams you'll see him play, but against teams with a real chance of losing, you'll see his time limited

Embiid needs to sit at this point. There was merit to seeing if you could play him into good form, but he's been a net negative against the starters of other teams and he doesn't really fit how this team plays. AD and Bam rotate with the option to go big by playing both or small with Lebron and KD. Embiid can match up with true big centers when you play them 

Regarding who starts/closes, keep in mind Holiday needs to be in those lineups. He's the best on-ball defender on the team so he's guarding the other team's best perimeter player, and he's shown to be an excellent catch-and-shoot spacer, connector, and cutter 

[Fud 9559]

14 hours ago, Derka said:

if AD weren’t so injury prone he’d probably have multiple mvps. he is so much better than embiid, and so much better than the average fan gives him credit for. his lame personality and alliance with lebron don't do him any favors either. but a healthy AD has been a top 5, perhaps no.1 best player in basketball for many years now. to start embiid over him is kind of a joke, but a)it doesn’t matter (or it least it shouldn’t matter) as we should run the table, and b)as long as he plays the major/end game minutes then who cares who starts/ 

What years would he have won multiple MVPs?

He's a better defensive player than Embiid because he's more switchable on the perimeter, but he's not in Embiid's universe on offense 

[ztejas 43608]

8 minutes ago, Fud said:

Kerr hates ball-stoppers/surveyors, which Tatum is.

Tatum also looked disinterested in the exhibition games. If he isn't going to play with fire, then there's literally zero reason to give him minutes over KD or LeBron who are both in a different tier as players than he is to begin with. 

Tatum's fine - but he's a very weak championship 1 (to where he was debatably their 2 last playoffs) and will never be the player that Durant and LeBron were in their primes. We'll need different guys to step up and carry the torch going forward - with guys like Tatum either skipping or filling out the roster. Hopefully Ant continues to develop into the alpha type superstar that we've tradtionally won gold medals behind. 

Edited July 30 by ztejas

[Derka 6374]

5 minutes ago, Fud said:

but he's not in Embiid's universe on offense at drawing phantom fouls and getting cheap FTs.

they are virtually equals offensively, and AD’s career numbers/numbers when lebron isnt playing bear that out. 

Edited July 30 by Derka

[Fud 9559]

Just now, ztejas said:

Tatum also looked disinterested in the exhibition games. If he isn't going to play with fire, then there's literally zero reason to give him minutes over KD or LeBron who are both in a different tier as players than he is to begin with. 

Tatum's fine - but he's a very weak championship 1 and will never be the player that Durant and LeBron were in their primes. We'll need different guys to step up and carry the torch going forward - with guys like Tatum either skipping or filling out the roster. Hopefully Ant continues to develop into the alpha type superstar that we win gold medals behind. 

Tatum is excellent, but the bar is high for team USA when the stars decide they want to play, especially if your typical role is the primary initiator and KD/Lebron play your position. If he was a better connector and transition player, he'd probably be playing more. There still might be some matchups where he makes sense defensively, but I think Kerr probably just doesn't love him as a player and would rather play KD/Lebron

[Fud 9559]

7 minutes ago, Derka said:

they are virtually equals offensively, and AD’s career numbers/numbers when lebron isnt playing bear that out. 

They're objectively not similar at all offensively in terms of impact. Embiid averaged over a point per minute along with over five assists per game this year. This is silly. 

[BurntOrange&White 40059]

16 minutes ago, Fud said:

They're objectively not similar at all offensively in terms of impact. Embiid averaged over a point per minute along with over five assists per game this year. This is silly. 

How has that helped him in playoffs?

[Derka 6374]

embiid led the league in FTs by barreling into his opponents ad nauseam. if you’re going to be combative and insulting it would be cool if you actually watched the two players in question playing basketball. AD is more well-rounded, a much better facilitator, and doesn’t get his stats by cheaply bowling over people all night long. he also doesn’t shrink in the playoffs. but good luck finding anyone else who watches this sport who thinks that joel embiid is “on another planet” from AD.

Edited July 30 by Derka

[d2o 1602]

19 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

His game is just awful in FIBA. He should be riding pine, not starting.

He shouldnt be there.   Fuck that fat bitch

[Fud 9559]

12 minutes ago, Derka said:

a mi cb better facilitator

Embiid doubles up AD in assists. He's a better offensive hub than AD. He's a better scorer. He demands more double teams. 

AD might be more impactful to winning and thus might be the better overall player at the highest levels largely because he's more flexible defensively, he's more malleable around other good offensive players, and he runs the court better, but Joel is the better overall offensive player by any metric. If free throws are taken out of the sport, then AD might have an argument, but then Joel would probably flop less and just try to score more without flopping; Joel is, after all, an excellent jump shooter within about 20 feet, and can just shoot over most players 

Edited July 30 by Fud

[Derka 6374]

USG-

joel embiid: 39.6%, by far the highest in the league 

AD: 26.7%

 

FTA-

embiid: 11.6/gm
 

AD: 6.8

but yeah, tell me more about how Captain Flop is just on another planet offensively from AD. 

[Fud 9559]

31 minutes ago, Fud said:

They're objectively not similar at all offensively in terms of impact. Embiid averaged over a point per minute along with over five assists per game this year. This is silly. 

lulz at getting negged for this post. Hopefully his keyboard didn't get fried from his tear drops 

[Derka 6374]

 

Just now, Fud said:

lulz at getting negged for this post. Hopefully his keyboard didn't get fried from his tear drops 

i negged you because you started this conversation by calling me and my takes stupid and silly right out the gate. what are you, 12? if you want to make a point, especially an inaccurate point, don’t be a dick about it.

i mean if only AD could gain 60 lbs, have the ball in his hands on every play, and get rewarded for playing mike alstott style basketball, *then* he’d be somewhere near the universe in which embiid lives. 🙄 

52 minutes ago, Fud said:

but he's not in Embiid's universe on offense 

you come out saying this completely retarded shit and yet you call someone else stupid. yeah, you deserve a neg rep. 

[billfromlaketravis 11564]

2 hours ago, Fud said:

Tatum is excellent, but the bar is high for team USA when the stars decide they want to play, especially if your typical role is the primary initiator and KD/Lebron play your position. If he was a better connector and transition player, he'd probably be playing more. There still might be some matchups where he makes sense defensively, but I think Kerr probably just doesn't love him as a player and would rather play KD/Lebron

Bill Simmons has stayed quiet on the subject, but you know he’s stewing over Tatum not playing. 
 

 

[ztejas 43608]

8 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Bill Simmons has stayed quiet on the subject, but you know he’s stewing over Tatum not playing. 
 

 

Yeah Simmons told me Tatum would be playing over KD.

[billfromlaketravis 11564]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Yeah Simmons told me Tatum would be playing over KD.

Yeah he’s sitting back waiting for Team USA to drop a game and the throw Kerr’s rotations under the bus. He won’t say shit if they keep blowing teams out. 
 

I don’t understand Simmons’ constant need for Tatum affirmation. The guy has made All-NBA 1st Team in 3 consecutive years. 

[ztejas 43608]

1 minute ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Yeah he’s sitting back waiting for Team USA to drop a game

He might be waiting awhile.

[d2o 1602]

15 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Yeah he’s sitting back waiting for Team USA to drop a game and the throw Kerr’s rotations under the bus. He won’t say shit if they keep blowing teams out. 
 

I don’t understand Simmons’ constant need for Tatum affirmation. The guy has made All-NBA 1st Team in 3 consecutive years. 

Its not just Tatum.  Its anything Boston.   Always has been.   He's a outrageous homer which is why I cannot understand why anyone takes him seriously

[Fud 9559]

50 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Yeah he’s sitting back waiting for Team USA to drop a game and the throw Kerr’s rotations under the bus. He won’t say shit if they keep blowing teams out. 
 

I don’t understand Simmons’ constant need for Tatum affirmation. The guy has made All-NBA 1st Team in 3 consecutive years. 

He takes a 2-3 week break from the main podcast every year right before football starts, although he'll pop up on other ringer pods 

[Fud 9559]

35 minutes ago, d2o said:

Its not just Tatum.  Its anything Boston.   Always has been.   He's a outrageous homer which is why I cannot understand why anyone takes him seriously

I don't take him very seriously as a pundit, but his podcasts are entertaining 

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18603]

Put me in the camp who believes Embiid is a better offensive player than AD. Notwithstanding his disgusting flopping foul baiting bullshit, he's a remarkably skilled big man with fantastic footwork who plays with incredible fluidity, touch and range for a guy his size. I don't see the same skillset with AD, who arguably is a more impactful overall player. 

[Chewbacca 7788]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Put me in the camp who believes Embiid is a better offensive player than AD. Notwithstanding his disgusting flopping foul baiting bullshit, he's a remarkably skilled big man with fantastic footwork who plays with incredible fluidity, touch and range for a guy his size. I don't see the same skillset with AD, who arguably is a more impactful overall player. 

I dunno.  You take away the foul baiting (as FIBA officials do) and he looks lost out there.

[Derka 6374]

i think we can all agree that the idea that embiid “is in another universe” from AD is an asinine take. these guys live in the same building on the same floor. take away embiid’s floppy FTs and his numbers plummet. increase AD’s USG and minutes and his obviously gets better.

[closetohumping 17501]

5 hours ago, d2o said:

Its not just Tatum.  Its anything Boston.   Always has been.   He's a outrageous homer which is why I cannot understand why anyone takes him seriously

Bawaton homah.  Simmons was a big time KD guy at one point in time 

[HookEm 2468]

8 hours ago, Derka said:

joel embiid: 39.6%, by far the highest in the league 

This is the key stat. You give any all-star level player in the NBA 40% usage and they are going to put up insane numbers.  Embiid hasn't suddenly become a great passer, he just has the ball all the freaking time.  His assists trend linearly with his usage. If he had AD's 26.7% usage, he would average 3.7 assists per game, which is almost exactly what AD averages.

Regardless, when someone commands 40% usage, their team isn't going to win in the playoffs.  I can't stand watching his teams play.

 

[Fud 9559]

14 minutes ago, HookEm said:

This is the key stat. You give any all-star level player in the NBA 40% usage and they are going to put up insane numbers.  Embiid hasn't suddenly become a great passer, he just has the ball all the freaking time.  His assists trend linearly with his usage. If he had AD's 26.7% usage, he would average 3.7 assists per game, which is almost exactly what AD averages.

Regardless, when someone commands 40% usage, their team isn't going to win in the playoffs.  I can't stand watching his teams play.

 

Players see diminishing returns in efficiency as usage goes up, but Joel’s remain very high. Rare offensive hub players can pull that off, and he’s one of them 

That said, I don’t think he’s a great fit for this team, especially in his current form 

[Derka 6374]

embiid is a freak of nature, and i always said that if he played 75 games he’d win the mvp. turns out he did it with 66. he’s an elite offensive player and nobody is taking anything away from that. however AD is also an absolute freak and an extremely gifted offensive player, and saying that he’s not in the same galaxy or whatever as embiid is just wrong. AD can score in any way that embiid can, he’s a great offensive rebounder, and he’s a talented assist man. downplaying him like that is the issue here, not embiid.

Edited July 31 by Derka

[HookEm 2468]

To be perfectly clear, I don't really like either of them.  Give me a big man who primarily wants to dunk it on your head. Can't stand 7'2 guys who want to drift out to the perimeter. 

\Old guy rant

[billfromlaketravis 11564]

Feels like the changing of the guard. Definitely LeBron’s last Olympics. Almost certainly Steph and KD’s last. 
 

Guessing the 2028 roster would be challenging. 

[Fud 9559]

Listening to the Hoop Collective, it seems like Kerr wants to go with a ten man rotation, and since he said Tatum will play this next game, then means someone else will be out of the rotation. Is it one of the guards, which would be White, Booker, or Ant? Is it Embiid? 

[Fud 9559]

8 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Feels like the changing of the guard. Definitely LeBron’s last Olympics. Almost certainly Steph and KD’s last. 
 

Guessing the 2028 roster would be challenging. 

You're losing those three top 10-15 all time players, plus likely one of the historically best team USA players in Jrue Holiday. He left the team before the Olympics started, but you can also probably go ahead and cross Kawhi off too. 

You can still get 10-12 all-NBA types on the team though. A lot of it is deciding which of the dozen or so qualified guards do you pick? Do we go ahead and assume health for Embiid and AD? Is Zion healthy? Is someone like Brandon Miller too good a fit at FIBA ball to keep off the team? Who replaces Jrue as the primary on-ball defender? 

I'll take a stab

'C: AD, Bam, Chet (I'll go ahead and guess that Embiid is injured and AD isn't)

W: Tatum, Paolo, Flagg, Brown (I decided between a bunch of wings here, including Brown, Barnes, Bridges, Miller, but went with Brown)

G: Ant, Haliburton, Booker, White (again, you can justifiably pick a dozen different guys here, but it's probably easiest to pick players with prior Olympics success).... I'll take a heat check and take a fifth guard with Jalen Suggs, who's now one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and is turning into a good connecter, he just needs to be able to make open threes

I think by this time Ant is probably the best American player, with Tatum not far behind. So the team would be more ball stoppy and iso heavy because that's how those two play, which can be remedied a bit by starting Haliburton and telling everyone to just go (plus Haliburton adds spacing). Obviously Haliburton is a problem on defense, but so is Steph; as long as he works hard defensively, you can probably make up for it with four other good defenders around him. The other 5th starter can be matchup dependent, or maybe Paolo or Flagg has ascended at that point, or maybe it's just Booker 

[Fud 9559]

By the way, France has a ton of young talent coming up through the pipeline, including players who are already in the NBA, high draft picks from the 2024 draft, and prospects projected to go very high in next year's draft. In four years Wemba might be a top five player in the world, and they might be able to surround him with good NBA players. They should make the next World Cup team heavy with young players in preparation for the Olympics 

[Pam Cummings 9689]

How non Celtics fans feel about Tatum

 

[ztejas 43608]

10 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Feels like the changing of the guard. Definitely LeBron’s last Olympics. Almost certainly Steph and KD’s last. 
 

Guessing the 2028 roster would be challenging. 

I could see KD suiting up again. 

47 minutes ago, Fud said:

high draft picks from the 2024 draft

Yeah Sarr looks awesome.

[Fud 9559]

Also I'm listening to Duncan and Hollinger right now and they're discussing how there's been a ton of athletic and long but raw french wings who've been drafted because of their upside but who quickly busted. It might be a thing. 

[billfromlaketravis 11564]

46 minutes ago, Fud said:

By the way, France has a ton of young talent coming up through the pipeline, including players who are already in the NBA, high draft picks from the 2024 draft, and prospects projected to go very high in next year's draft. In four years Wemba might be a top five player in the world, and they might be able to surround him with good NBA players. They should make the next World Cup team heavy with young players in preparation for the Olympics 

Team USA is going to need Ant to the next step, and Flagg to be as advertised. I think Tatum is at his ceiling. 
 

France is going to be a problem if Wemby keeps advancing and if half of their lottery picks pan out. Salaun looked pretty damn good in summer league. 

[Fud 9559]

1 minute ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Salaun looked pretty damn good in summer league. 

I didn't watch him closely, but Hollinger/Duncan thought he looked terrible per their latest podcast 

The next guy to watch for them is in the 2025 draft; point guard Nolan Traore

If Sarr hits, they could potentially have something like Traore-Coulibaly-Risacher-Wemba-Sarr 

[BurntOrange&White 40059]

1 hour ago, Fud said:

By the way, France has a ton of young talent coming up through the pipeline, including players who are already in the NBA, high draft picks from the 2024 draft, and prospects projected to go very high in next year's draft. In four years Wemba might be a top five player in the world, and they might be able to surround him with good NBA players. They should make the next World Cup team heavy with young players in preparation for the Olympics 

France is going to be really good moving forward

[ztejas 43608]

42 minutes ago, Fud said:

Also I'm listening to Duncan and Hollinger right now and they're discussing how there's been a ton of athletic and long but raw french wings who've been drafted because of their upside but who quickly busted. It might be a thing. 

Don't get me wrong - I think France is going to be one of the best intl teams going forward - just making the point that high draft pick =/= great basketball player.

Wemby is going to be so good that they shouldn't need to put a ton around him. 

Couple of guys next cycle I like that you didn't mention are Hart and Brunson. 

[Fud 9559]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

Couple of guys next cycle I like that you didn't mention are Hart and Brunson. 

Hart is more of a World Cup guy when a lot of the all-NBA and even all-star types turn the opportunity down. Brunson is in the dozen or so guards bucket that I mentioned; in addition to the guards I predicted to be on the team there's also Brunson, Kyrie, Mitchell, Fox, Ja, Maxey, etc..

[ztejas 43608]

18 minutes ago, Fud said:

Hart is more of a World Cup guy when a lot of the all-NBA and even all-star types turn the opportunity down. Brunson is in the dozen or so guards bucket that I mentioned; in addition to the guards I predicted to be on the team there's also Brunson, Kyrie, Mitchell, Fox, Ja, Maxey, etc..

Meh. He's more than good enough to play in the Olympics. Whether he gets passed over for "stars" or not by USAB. 

[Fud 9559]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

Meh. He's more than good enough to play in the Olympics. Whether he gets passed over for "stars" or not by USAB. 

I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? The US Olympics is extremely difficult to make, especially for a perimeter player who's a terrible three point shooter 

[BurntOrange&White 40059]

Can’t wait for Bronny on the 2028 Olympic team 

[ztejas 43608]

I think Souf Sudan is in trouble.

[Fud 9559]

 

[ztejas 43608]

"Kerr trusts Tatum to not fuck this game up."

[Pam Cummings 9689]

We're about to tune that ass up aren't we. I like the close exhibition games and international MVPs. Lights a fire under us.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18603]

4 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Salaun looked pretty damn good in summer league. 

4 hours ago, Fud said:

I didn't watch him closely, but Hollinger/Duncan thought he looked terrible per their latest podcast 

I will be completely stunned if Salaun amounts to anything in the NBA. I never understood the hype with him to begin with, and almost shit myself when Charlotte took him 6th. Low IQ, shaky jumper and very, very stiff. He's got a big motor, but that's it. Sarr at least is athletic and you know can be a rim protector, but Salaun has no discernable basketball talent whatsoever.

With regard to the future of USA basketball... I'm not concerned. There will always be a steady stream of talent to stock the roster. It's going to be a long ass time before another country is able to go 12 deep with difference-making NBA talent. 

Current US born NBA players under 25 who are better than 90% of international players and not on this year's Olympic team: Banchero, Holmgren, Garland, JJJ, Cade Cunningham, Ja Morant, Scottie Barnes, Zion, Jalen Williams, Maxey,