Stolen Check Fraud

[statsman 5,472]

Could use advice. 
I pay off the credit card balance monthly. Got a call from Citi asking why the payment is six days late. I said, “You’re crazy.  I paid and you cashed it”. They said nuh uh. 
 
Checked the bank app. Someone else’s name written instead of Citi. Not my handwriting. 
 
Also- a check payment made today to Verizon. I do no business with Verizon. 
 
Called the bank- filed disputes, froze account and opened new one. Resolved to only pay online now. 
 
I asked the bank if I should file with police, and if so, who? They wouldn’t answer. 
 
So, Surly-world- advice? Report to local police? Postal inspector? Anyone have any functional experience? Thanks for all advice. 

[Dahobbs 17,625]

26 minutes ago, statsman said:

Could use advice. 
I pay off the credit card balance monthly. Got a call from Citi asking why the payment is six days late. I said, “You’re crazy.  I paid and you cashed it”. They said nuh uh. 
 
Checked the bank app. Someone else’s name written instead of Citi. Not my handwriting. 
 
Also- a check payment made today to Verizon. I do no business with Verizon. 
 
Called the bank- filed disputes, froze account and opened new one. Resolved to only pay online now. 
 
I asked the bank if I should file with police, and if so, who? They wouldn’t answer. 
 
So, Surly-world- advice? Report to local police? Postal inspector? Anyone have any functional experience? Thanks for all advice. 

So you wrote a check to Citi, and someone besides Citi cashed it? Or you just mean someone got a hold of your check book and has been writing fraudulent checks? Do you have images of the fraudulent checks? 

Edited April 24 by Dahobbs

[DalTxHornFan 3,106]

Stay away from the US postal service for any payments by check.  I handle business affairs for my church and we ended up moving our mail delivery from our physical address to a P.O. Box due to all of the mail theft and check-washing that we experienced.

[statsman 5,472]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

So you wrote a check to Citi, and someone besides Citi cashed it? Or you just mean someone got a hold of your check book and has been writing fraudulent checks? Do you have images of the fraudulent checks? 

Wrote it to Citi, and somehow an individual put their name in as the payee. Yes, I have an image. Not my script. 

[Herbie Hancock 7,368]

It’s 2024, who the fuck still writes checks and who the fuck still uses the USPS??

[fattyflattie 4,639]

Just now, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s 2024, who the fuck still writes checks and who the fuck still uses the USPS??

Oh you done fucked up. About to get all the USPS Stans up in here.  

[statsman 5,472]

3 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s 2024, who the fuck still writes checks and who the fuck still uses the USPS??

Not me, anymore

[Sbbruin 21,861]

4 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s 2024, who the fuck still writes checks and who the fuck still uses the USPS??

Us olds.  I rarely do.  But sometimes the hoops you have to go through to pay medical bills online is ridiculous and it's easier to scratch out a check and mail it.

[Dahobbs 17,625]

8 minutes ago, statsman said:

Wrote it to Citi, and somehow an individual put their name in as the payee. Yes, I have an image. Not my script. 

Do the other fraudulent checks appear to be same check with the payee information changed? Anyway, yes, I'd report to police and FBI.

[statsman 5,472]

27 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Stay away from the US postal service for any payments by check.  I handle business affairs for my church and we ended up moving our mail delivery from our physical address to a P.O. Box due to all of the mail theft and check-washing that we experienced.

I put it in a drop box, at dawn, on the way to work. Who is going to steal from a drop box in broad daylight?, I figured. Lesson learned. 

[Dbeasy 15,068]

32 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Stay away from the US postal service for any payments by check.  I handle business affairs for my church and we ended up moving our mail delivery from our physical address to a P.O. Box due to all of the mail theft and check-washing that we experienced.

Who delivers to and from the P.O. Box? Santa Claus?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,515]

If a letter or payment is important enough, walk it into a USPS location. Outdoor, standalone drop boxes are targets. And not just with checks. Thieves take everything and most likely discard letters that offer them zero value.

for the OP, if you think the theft occurred at a postal box/site, you need to file the complaint with the US postal inspection service. I would be surprised if local cops care or will follow up with letter theft even when it involves money. 

This situation happened to me, and the bank refunded all of the money, maybe because the thief deposited the check into another bank. Local cops didn't even care that I could tell them the bank account # of the thief. Seemed like an open and shut case to me.

[statsman 5,472]

I notice when they “washed” the check, the washing bled into the line where I wrote the amount in cursive. In reconstructing it, the thief omitted the word “thousand”, so I’m hopeful that helps in getting the money back from the bank. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

The last time I wrote a check was in 2015 for earnest money on my house.

[Dahobbs 17,625]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

I notice when they “washed” the check, the washing bled into the line where I wrote the amount in cursive. In reconstructing it, the thief omitted the word “thousand”, so I’m hopeful that helps in getting the money back from the bank. 

Wait, the bank is giving you problems about covering the money? From what you've said, this is definitely on them. The UCC is pretty clear about this. 

[RDCanecutter 26,453]

5 hours ago, statsman said:

Could use advice. 
I pay off the credit card balance monthly. Got a call from Citi asking why the payment is six days late. I said, “You’re crazy.  I paid and you cashed it”. They said nuh uh. 
 
Checked the bank app. Someone else’s name written instead of Citi. Not my handwriting. 
 
Also- a check payment made today to Verizon. I do no business with Verizon. 
 
Called the bank- filed disputes, froze account and opened new one. Resolved to only pay online now. 
 
I asked the bank if I should file with police, and if so, who? They wouldn’t answer. 
 
So, Surly-world- advice? Report to local police? Postal inspector? Anyone have any functional experience? Thanks for all advice. 

It wasn't a check, but when my credit card got hacked, UFCU called the Austin cops while I sat there in the office. Didn't matter where the actual fraud occurred. Once we had a police report on file, they did all the other stuff. But it was UFCU, who suck wayyyy less than any bank I ever had.

[UTPhil2006 3,807]

UFCU is amazing 

[Gil Bang 25,975]

A few years back, we got some new carpet installed in the guesthouse.  

The carpet company (been around this town forever) asked for 50% down to order, and the remaining 50% to be paid at installation.  "Just give the check to the installer".

A few weeks later, the carpet store calls and says the check was lost by the installer, call him Jim Smith.  "he's one of our best guys...this has never happened before", etc.  Asks for replacement check.  We say "sure, we'll bring you a check, minus the 40 bucks for the stop payment on the first one".  They say cool.  We stop payment, drop the new check, everything's good.  

Fast forward a couple of years.  GF and I go out for NYE.  Wake up in a hotel as planned.    GF asks how much we spent last night.  I say "a few hundred I guess...I paid with the debit card".  So, she checks the app on the phone and says OH SHIT...THE ACCOUNT IS 2 GRAND LIGHT.  Fortunately, we keep a pretty good pad in that account, so nothing is gonna bounce or anything.

Upon further investigation, she sees that the missing check to the carpet company has cleared.   Pulls up the image, and now, instead of "Acme Carpet" as the payee, it reads "Acme Carpet + Mary Smith".   the + Mary Smith part in different writing. 

Yeah...Mary is the installer's estranged crazy wife. She also changed the date by a couple of years. 

We called the carpet company and they were extremely apologetic, said it was a nasty divorce and she's caused him multiple problems, etc. 

We bank at Chase. She banks at Chase, and used the app to do the deposit.  We reported it to the cops...no idea if they did anything. Chase opened an investigation, returned our money, and closed her account for fraud and reported her to CHEX systems.  

Oh..."Stop Payment" orders expire. They aren't forever. 

[Dahobbs 17,625]

2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I said this the other day and was ridiculed as being out of touch and tone deaf because, I guess, everyone of course loves to use the USPS in this whole revival of "well askhully, the government is efficient and hires smart, ambitious people".

Of course, you ignore the part where you guessed that USPS wasn't even used by the majority of people despite 100 billion plus items delivered through it every year. So yes, you were ridiculously out of touch. 

That said, using USPS drop boxes for checks isn't a good idea. 

Edited April 25 by Dahobbs

[conVINCEd 21,469]

The only time I had an opportunity to really test the reliability of the USPS was when we mailed 100+ wedding invitations.   Failure rate was around 8%.  We had the correct addresses, confirmed with follow up phone calls, and 8% of our invitations didn’t get to their destination.  This was about 10 years ago.  I no longer use the USPS for anything I consider important.

[Gil Bang 25,975]

The USPS is fantastic.  It's one of the greatest things ever.

Fight me. 

[Dahobbs 17,625]

5 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

The only time I had an opportunity to really test the reliability of the USPS was when we mailed 100+ wedding invitations.   Failure rate was around 8%.  We had the correct addresses, confirmed with follow up phone calls, and 8% of our invitations didn’t get to their destination.  This was about 10 years ago.  I no longer use the USPS for anything I consider important.

I think more likely explanation is that people don't look at their mail that closely anymore. Most of it is junk/spam, so good often gets thrown out with the bad. 

[HornOnTheBayou 8,931]

Or people who didn't want to go to the wedding and just said the invite "must of gotten lost in the mail".

[baboso 6,056]

Check fraud is rampant across the banking industry right now.  If not altering a legitimate check, thieves (including USPS employees) are intercepting check refill orders and writing and cashing fraudulent checks.

[luke duke 6,413]

Do the other fraudulent checks appear to be same check with the payee information changed? Anyway, yes, I'd report to police and FBI.

Don’t forget the Postmaster General

[Dahobbs 17,625]

46 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

The urge to defend the Post Office so deeply is weird.

Your urge to write bullshit is also weird. 

Anyway, I'd contact the police, the FBI, and the US postal inspection service. Those are the entities I can think that potentially have jurisdiction over this. Definitely don't let your bank get away without compensating you the money. As I said, the UCC is pretty clear on this. You weren't negligent in allowing this to happen (as far as I can tell) and you notified your bank promptly after discovering the fraudulent check. The bank really shouldn't hassle you about payment. 

Edited April 25 by Dahobbs

[shakahorn 1,645]

Yeah unless you've engaged in questionable activities with your bank in the past (not judging), they should refund your money with just a modicum of effort on your part.  Further, Citi would also refund any late fees and interest charges, again, unless you have a habit of questionable activity.

I don't see the authorities, or even the bank doing anything beyond that, maybe if your cc payment is in the high five figures.

Couple years back, my wife's (no pics) business account had a check stolen that had been sent out USPS.  The image of the check showed that it had clearly been tampered with, the payee was practically written in olde english.  Wells Fargo refunded in a couple days upon being presented with the check image.  But that's it.  And, the check had been deposited into a Wells Fargo account!  I forget the amount, less than $5k but more than $1k.  So I guess Wells figures it's cheaper to just let it go rather than investigate it.

[DalTxHornFan 3,106]

Postal Inspectors and (remarkably) Secret Service are very responsive to matters involving bank fraud.  Way more interested than local District Attorneys.

[Dahobbs 17,625]

18 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Postal Inspectors and (remarkably) Secret Service are very responsive to matters involving bank fraud.  Way more interested than local District Attorneys.

Oh yeah, I forgot the Secret Service also covers this area. 

[statsman 5,472]

First-I really appreciate all info. Thanks very much!

Update- last week, I disputed the issue to the bank, and reported to the local police and the post office. I am supposed to get a call from a police officer and a postal inspector in the next couple of days. 
 
I have a new account number with the bank. There was a second issue, of a low three figure e-charge made to Verizon, for a customer that doesn’t share my surname, and Wells Fargo reversed that in short order (why did they even pay it? Why do they not automatically flag the account?). They said my dispute on the check could take 10 business days to resolve. They are in for one hell of an argument, and legal action, if they don’t resolve it in my favor. 
 
So, I will be paying bills online now. Question- why are checks printed with the routing number and account number? Before this incident, I thought that was a risk; now I realize that it’s an absolute offering to lazy thieves. 

[HRSchenker 2,271]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:36 PM, statsman said:

First-I really appreciate all info. Thanks very much!

Update- last week, I disputed the issue to the bank, and reported to the local police and the post office. I am supposed to get a call from a police officer and a postal inspector in the next couple of days. 
 
I have a new account number with the bank. There was a second issue, of a low three figure e-charge made to Verizon, for a customer that doesn’t share my surname, and Wells Fargo reversed that in short order (why did they even pay it? Why do they not automatically flag the account?). They said my dispute on the check could take 10 business days to resolve. They are in for one hell of an argument, and legal action, if they don’t resolve it in my favor. 
 
So, I will be paying bills online now. Question- why are checks printed with the routing number and account number? Before this incident, I thought that was a risk; now I realize that it’s an absolute offering to lazy thieves. 

Not saying this will happen but definitely prepare yourself in the event the merchant disputes your claims. This happened to my wife a few years ago. Her credit card was charged ~$1000 for airline tickets from California to Australia then Australia to China. The merchant told the bank they had proof a physical card was used and because her card wasn't reported stolen (we still had the physical card so it was never stolen) it wasn't their issue. We had to write the merchant a strongly worded letter that pretty much said "we didn't do this purchase and you know it, we'll gladly spend thousands in court to prove it, and we'll make sure you pay our legal fees and travel expenses". Merchant gave up the appeal.

[statsman 5,472]

Thanks. In my case- the payees was changed to a person’s name. WF wouldn’t tell me where it was cashed. 

[immamac 42,865]

Checks are kinda fucked in general. If you are going to continue using paper checks I would recommend using the online bill pay service from your bank. They will mail out a check same day. 

If you are paying vendors with a check I always use cashiers checks or money orders. If they lose it it’s not my fucking problem and when you cancel them they are actually canceled. 

[Jerry Callo 8,704]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:36 PM, statsman said:

Question- why are checks printed with the routing number and account number? Before this incident, I thought that was a risk; now I realize that it’s an absolute offering to lazy thieves.

What's a bank supposed to do if you deposit a check without an account number and routing number?

[statsman 5,472]

Couldn’t they have a private database of banking routing numbers? My bank’s name is on the check; couldn’t that be enough?  The bank would have access to the routing number but not the third. 

Edited April 29 by statsman

[statsman 5,472]

Bank put the money back in my account. I reported to Arlington Pilice and USPS over two weeks ago and got case numbers. I have yet to hear from actual policeman or postal inspector. I guess non-violent crime doesn’t raise the alarm so much. 
 

Again- thanks to all for the advice. 

Edited May 11 by statsman

[UTPhil2006 3,807]

46 minutes ago, statsman said:

Bank put the money back in my account. I reported to Arlington Pilice and USPS over two weeks ago and got case numbers. I have yet to hear from actual policeman or postal inspector. I guess non-violent crime doesn’t raise the alarm so much. 
 

Again- thanks to all for the advice. 

I doubt you hear from either. At least you got the money back. 

[statsman 5,472]

Lesson learned- I have always been a late adapter of technology (example- paying bills by mail, as I have done since early adulthood in the ‘80s), and I realize that can be a flaw. With all the hacking, I expect more personal business to be conducted with bio-verification (fingerprint, facial recognition, return a, etc.) and I need to embrace that as it rolls out. 

[DalTxHornFan 3,106]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

Lesson learned- I have always been a late adapter of technology (example- paying bills by mail, as I have done since early adulthood in the ‘80s), and I realize that can be a flaw. With all the hacking, I expect more personal business to be conducted with bio-verification (fingerprint, facial recognition, return a, etc.) and I need to embrace that as it rolls out. 

Pretty much the only checks I actually write these days are the ones that I put directly in the collection plate on Sundays.  Glad the situation worked out for you.

[boilerhorn 1,393]

Where can I convert my silver certificates to savings bonds?  Attempt at anachronism humor.

These days, the only time I write checks is when I am prepared to hand them directly to the payee.  In many cases, it is written to a contractor, who will take it to a bank or check cashing service so he/she does not have to declare it.  In most cases, even these folks have evolved to Zelle and Venmo.

I do all CC payments online on the due date - electronic payment.

Glad it worked out OK for you.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

11 hours ago, boilerhorn said:

even these folks have evolved to Zelle and Venmo.

FYI, Zelle preferred over Venmo.

 

• Directly into recipient's account via Z.

V requires recipient to go into the app, fumble around 2 or 3 steps & *THEN* transfer over / cash out.

• Venmo takes a tiny fee to get the $$ instantly or makes you wait "2 or 3 days" to receive funds whereas Z is Ø fee (& I have had $ 10,000 transferred to me via Z).

[boilerhorn 1,393]

Agree w/ Zelle over Venmo.  However, not all banks or credit unions have access to Zelle.

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:40 AM, DalTxHornFan said:

Pretty much the only checks I actually write these days are the ones that I put directly in the collection plate on Sundays.  Glad the situation worked out for you.

This and to my wife's parents, and they don't just take a picture and mobile deposit.  They wait until they need to go to the bank.  So 6-8 weeks later we spend hours trying to figure out if it was legit or fraud.

[Wally Fairway 5,559]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:44 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

It’s 2024, who the fuck still writes checks and who the fuck still uses the USPS??

I think I've written 3 checks this year - and one was to myself. My wife still writes 5-10 checks a month, and won't use the remote deposit app, she is Mrs Karen Boomer

[Reagan1k 3,024]

Our company deals with check fraud either coming or going 3-4 times a month.

They either wash our outgoing check and our positive pay picks it up, or we don't get paid and find out the same thing happened to a check coming to us.

Unless the banks are keeping an investigation under super secret wraps, I can only surmise that much/most of this goes unpunished.  Seems to be a skimming operation off a stolen identity where fraudulent deposits are made and then funds withdrawn.

Major PITA, but checks are still a big part of our payment process.  Not everyone is set up for EFT yet, and that comes with its own set of issues and security concerns.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

On 5/17/2024 at 12:48 PM, Wally Fairway said:

I think I've written 3 checks this year - and one was to myself. My wife still writes 5-10 checks a month, and won't use the remote deposit app, she is Mrs Karen Boomer

I won't me tonight a name, however a Shagg²erase wife keeps their checkbook in the pantry.

 

As to credit unions & "app financials", mine limits me to Sendo g a max $ 500 / week across all platforms.  Sent $ 100 on Monday via any of them?  I now have $ 400 available to send, regardless of PayPal, Z, Ca$hApp, V, etc.

Resets on Sunday.

[ROFL BOX 6,649]

On 5/17/2024 at 3:18 PM, Reagan1k said:

Our company deals with check fraud either coming or going 3-4 times a month.

They either wash our outgoing check and our positive pay picks it up, or we don't get paid and find out the same thing happened to a check coming to us.

Unless the banks are keeping an investigation under super secret wraps, I can only surmise that much/most of this goes unpunished.  Seems to be a skimming operation off a stolen identity where fraudulent deposits are made and then funds withdrawn.

Major PITA, but checks are still a big part of our payment process.  Not everyone is set up for EFT yet, and that comes with its own set of issues and security concerns.

 

[Hook1997 5,387]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:53 AM, BeardIP said:

The urge to defend the Post Office so deeply is weird.

My step sister was a front desk person somewhere for years and five years ago applied to the Post Office and is now a postmaster.  She’s one of the dumbest people I know.  They pay dumb people way above what the private sector would.  There’s no way she would ever be in any form of management at UPS or even FedEx.  

Edited May 19 by Hook1997