UT Pro-Palestine Protest Thread

[BurntEyes 5816]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

@BurntEyes, your expectations of a bunch of 20-YO kids are wildly optimistic.

I didn't organize these events. This isn't how I would have gone about it. 

And we've gotten to the crux of the issue. 

Just like Occupy and BLM protest got out of hand due to local and national leadership issues, so shall this.

[bolverk 29394]

12 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I agree that the subject is nuanced. I also fund it interesting that if one is against the broad methodology of the protests they must therefore be Pro-Israel in the discussions here and elsewhere. Most here don't seem capable of having a nuanced discussion or admitting things that are counter to whichever side they are on.

So, to be clear, I think protests to bring attention to what I feel was an overreaction by the Israeli Government is merited and fair. 

As a person who grew up with a Jewish stepfather and Jewish siblings I think that ang such protests need to be extremely clear in both their intent and attendees. Yes, you can manage the attendance of your own protest if you chose to do so. I've seen it done in the past.

I think the place and organizing of these protest and the criminal activities also involved are all counter productive the means of the protest. 

It shouldn't be on universities, it should be better organized, the attendees should be better informed, it should be better self policed and that would create an environment that is more productive to the cause rather than drawing attention away from it. 

Yeah, I can't remember where I posted my views (maybe in the national thread). At this point, the protests have largely become a distraction from their original purpose, with all sides—protest leaders, college presidents, and politicians alike—now mostly seeking clout among their various supporters, peers, and constituencies. The protests have become more about the protests themselves.

[BurntEyes 5816]

6 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, I can't remember where I posted my views (maybe in the national thread). At this point, the protests have largely become a distraction from their original purpose, with all sides—protest leaders, college presidents, and politicians alike—now mostly seeking clout among their various supporters, peers, and constituencies. The protests have become more about the protests themselves.

I sadly agree, and of course this being 'Murica the various sides are lining up the usual rhetoric and the social media propaganda machines are cranking up on both sides. Meanwhile, an issue that truly deserves national attention is being basically ignored. 

At this point, I really just hope it doesn't spin up into another national tragedy, but my hope is diminishing daily.

I also don't think this is the last of its kind this year. It's become the political world we live in, and for that I'm greatly saddened. 

I still would like to know who's really driving this ship on the protests. Not many are asking that question.

[bolverk 29394]

3 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I sadly agree, and of course this being 'Murica the various sides are lining up the usual rhetoric and the social media propaganda machines are cranking up on both sides. Meanwhile, an issue that truly deserves national attention is being basically ignored. 

At this point, I really just hope it doesn't spin up into another national tragedy, but my hope is diminishing daily.

I also don't think this is the last of its kind this year. It's become the political world we live in, and for that I'm greatly saddened. 

I still would like to know who's really driving this ship on the protests. Not many are asking that question.

I've seen some speculation, with no proof I should add, that funding and direction could be coming from foreign sources who'd like to see American discord during an election year.

[Captainant 27403]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

I've seen some speculation, with no proof I should add, that funding and direction could be coming from foreign sources who'd like to see American discord during an election year.

Well that just sounds completely unrealistic 

[mdleast 8256]

Nyet!

[BurntEyes 5816]

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I've seen some speculation, with no proof I should add, that funding and direction could be coming from foreign sources who'd like to see American discord during an election year.

That and/or internal forces with specific agendas (probably on both sides) would be the best bet.  

[Bevo 13516]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

That and/or internal forces with specific agendas (probably on both sides) would be the best bet.  

 

The info is out there. Just do a search and try to weed out the bias.

[BurntEyes 5816]

Just now, Bevo said:

 

The info is out there. Just do a search and try to weed out the bias.

This is cryptic and not very useful, thanks! 

[Bevo 13516]

9 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

This is cryptic and not very useful, thanks! 

Well, I have little desire for cloak room folly, but here is an example from NBC News:

Who's behind the pro-Palestinian protests that are disrupting Biden's campaign events and blocking city streets?

NBC News examined links to an organization banned by Germany and Israel but found no direct financial ties to any U.S.-designated terrorist groups.

Protest organizers say their aims are simple but far-reaching — to push lawmakers to stop giving money and weapons to Israel, while getting Democratic voters to boycott President Joe Biden as retribution for his support of it.Justine Goode / NBC News; Getty Images

 

 

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March 20, 2024, 5:00 AM CDT

By Simone Weichselbaum and Alexandra Chaidez

In cities across the country, highways have been blocked, trains have been delayed and sections of college campuses have been shut down by hundreds of thousands of people who have taken to the streets.  

They’re protesting Israel’s invasion of Gaza in response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Members of the movement say the size of the demonstrations is a response to the killing of more than 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. 

 

Pro-Israel groups, meanwhile, are pushing Congress and federal law enforcement agencies to investigate whether any of the protests across the U.S. are getting money from abroad and whether their leaders have ties to Hamas or other terrorist groups. 

To understand which groups are organizing the protests and any potential ties to foreign groups, NBC News reviewed the tax filings and social media posts of the organizations behind the highest-profile demonstrations, as well as court filings, government reports and legislative hearings related to the pro-Palestinian movement in America. 

Despite accusations by some pro-Israel groups and former U.S. and Israeli government officials of potential ties between protest organizers and terrorist groups, public records show no clear evidence financially linking Hamas or any foreign governments to the American protests.  

What did emerge is a vast network that includes left-leaning, billion-dollar American philanthropies and collaboration with at least one foreign organization that Germany and Israel have banned for allegedly working with or supporting Hamas and another terrorist group. 

The movement overall appears grassroots, with localized efforts that coordinate primarily through social media using apps such as Telegram, X, WhatsApp and Instagram. 

Nerdeen Kiswani is the founder and chair of Within Our Lifetime.Simone Weichselbaum / NBC News

Nerdeen Kiswani is emblematic of the movement. Kiswani, 29, a law school graduate, founded the group Within Our Lifetime nearly a decade ago to build a community for young people who want to raise awareness for the Palestinian cause. With little more than social media posts, Kiswani, a Palestinian American activist raised in Brooklyn, New York, can attract thousands of New Yorkers to clog shopping districts, transit hubs and even roads to the airport — and bring them to a standstill. 

“I just support the Palestinian people as a whole, and I believe that we have the right to resist,” Kiswani said. “If they’re mad at it, they can talk to Biden, they can talk to the secretary of state, they can talk to the elected officials who keep funding wars abroad, who keep funding death and killing in our name, with our tax dollars.” 

‘Feel the heat’

Protest organizers say their aims are simple but far-reaching: to push lawmakers to stop giving money and weapons to Israel while getting Democratic voters to boycott President Joe Biden as political retribution for his support of Israel as large numbers of Gazans are being killed.  

The goal of the demonstrations is to make “the Democrats feel the heat, not only from the mass protests, but also from the people who are being stopped in the streets, who aren’t making it to work on time,” said Hatem Abudayyeh, the national chair of the U.S. Palestinian Community Network, which has organized street protests in Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit.  

And it is having an effect. Biden has taken extraordinary steps to avoid protesters at public and campaign events, NBC News recently reported. During the Democratic primary in Michigan, which has a large Muslim population, more than 101,000 voters marked “uncommitted” on their ballots. In 2020, just under 1,300 voters checked the box.  

“At least with Trump, we know what we’re dealing with,” Kiswani said. “We know that he’s been anti-Palestinian. With Biden, you know, he literally can kill 30,000 of us and still pretend that he’s a friend.” 

Following the money 

Several of the pro-Palestinian organizations, including Within Our Lifetime and the U.S. Palestinian Community Network, do not have public tax filings. However, they and several other groups use a progressive nonprofit group based in New York called Westchester People’s Action Coalition Foundation, or WESPAC, as their fiscal sponsor to collect and process online donations. U.S. tax law allows nonprofit groups with 501(c)(3) status to collect money on behalf of smaller groups. 

Howard Horowitz, WESPAC’s board chair, declined to share its financial filings for the organizations it sponsors. 

“Isn’t the big story the ongoing genocide in Gaza?” Horowitz said in an email. 

Other groups have backing from major U.S. foundations. IfNotNow, an organization with the stated aim to “end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system,” was awarded $100,000 during the past five years by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, a decades-old philanthropy based in New York. The fund has awarded close to a half-million dollars over the same period to Jewish Voice for Peace, another Palestinian rights organization. 

“I think protests and civil disobedience, as long as it’s nonviolent, is an effective tool, and that’s why we support some groups that use that tool,” said Stephen Heintz, the president and CEO of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.  

The Open Society Foundation, established by George Soros, has also given grants to Jewish Voice for Peace. A spokesperson said the foundation’s goal is to help establish lasting peace in the region

 

 

In a march organized by Within Our Lifetime and co-sponsored by Samidoun, according to Within Our Lifetime, pro-Palestinian protesters rallied in midtown Manhattan on Dec. 25. Selcuk Acar / Anadolu via Getty Images

 

 

Jewish Voice for Peace has organized hundreds of protests across the country with tens of thousands of participants since the invasion of Gaza. While its events are generally peaceful, it has come under criticism for some actions, including inviting convicted terrorist Rasmea Odeh to speak at a national event in 2017.  

Odeh’s supporters say Israel tortured her into a false confession. Odeh was a founding member of the Chicago chapter of the U.S. Palestinian Community Network before U.S. officials deported her in 2017 for failing to disclose a terrorism conviction in Israel. 

Stefanie Fox, Jewish Voice for Peace’s executive director, said people must think critically about the U.S. government’s history of applying the word “terrorism” to specific communities. “International law recognizes the rights of occupied peoples to resist their oppression, including through the use of force within clear parameters that always protect civilians in conflict,” Fox said.  

In 2020, Zoom, Facebook and YouTube shut down an online event featuring Leila Khaled, a Palestinian activist who spent time in prison for hijacking planes. In a statement condemning censorship, Jewish Voice for Peace called her a “Palestinian resistance icon” and slammed the tech companies. 

According to congressional testimony, public statements and interviews, current and former government officials in the U.S., Europe, Israel and Canada claim that some leaders of the pro-Palestinian protest movement promote rhetoric from Hamas or the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, or PFLP. They also say some groups work with members of the PFLP. The State Department has designated both groups as terrorist organizations.  

On and after the Oct. 7 attacks, when about 1,200 people were killed and more than 240 were taken hostage, the PFLP’s military wing, the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, claimed on Telegram that it had participated in the carnage. It urged other Palestinians to join it. Federal investigators in Washington, D.C., said they do not dispute the PFLP’s claim that it participated in the attack. 

Jonathan Schanzer, a former Treasury Department official, called for more aggressive investigation of ties between pro-Palestinian groups in the U.S. and terrorist organizations in testimony to Congress in November. 

“Individuals who previously worked for Hamas charities are now a driving force behind the large pro-Hamas demonstrations taking place in major cities across America,” said Schanzer, who is now senior vice president at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.  

Schanzer cited Hatem Bazian, a longtime lecturer at the University of California Berkeley, as an example. Bazian founded the national branch of Students for Justice in Palestine to focus on campus-based activism, and he later launched American Muslims for Palestine. Both groups advocate for the U.S. government to end its support of Israel. 

Hatem Bazian, chairman of American Muslims for Palestine, speaks at a news conference to launch an advertisement campaign criticizing Israel and U.S. support for it in New York City on March 26, 2013.Mike Seger / Reuters

Schanzer argued that Bazian and his organizations are part of a network that is “providing training, talking points, materials and financial support to students intimidating and threatening Jewish and pro-Israel students on college campuses.” 

The attorney general’s office of Virginia, where American Muslims for Palestine is headquartered, also opened an investigation of the group after an Israeli American family accused it of potentially using funds to benefit terrorist organizations. 

The attorney general’s office said it could not comment on an open investigation. Bazian said the allegations from Capitol Hill and Virginia are false. 

“You are guilty because you passed by someone who was eating a shawarma, who is connected to somebody who lives in Gaza, who knows somebody who might be a member of Hamas,” Bazian said. “That’s basically where we are at.” 

Samidoun

Officials concerned about hidden links to terrorist groups point to a little-known international organization called Samidoun, the Arabic word for “steadfast.”  

On its website, the Canadian-registered nonprofit group describes itself as “an international network of organizers and activists working to build solidarity with Palestinian prisoners in their struggle for freedom.” 

But the Israeli government and several think tanks in Europe and Israel say Samidoun’s leadership is composed of current and former members of the PFLP. Germany banned Samidoun a few weeks after the Oct. 7 attacks, arguing that Samidoun members had praised and supported Hamas during street protests.  

The Israeli government declared Samidoun a terrorist organization in 2021. “They support terrorism, and they want to gain public opinion — support — for terrorism,” said Yossi Kuperwasser, the former chief of the research division in the Israel Defense Forces’ military intelligence wing.  

The group’s international coordinator, Charlotte Kates, originally from New Jersey, is listed as one of three directors on Samidoun’s nonprofit registration in Canada. She did not respond to multiple requests for comment. Other members of Samidoun’s leadership in Canada and in Europe also did not respond. 

But Samidoun does not hide its activities. In a Feb. 27 YouTube video in which Kates is featured along with Dr. Basem Naim, a senior Hamas official, Kates described the Oct. 7 attacks as a “heroic operation.” In another February webinar on YouTube, she spoke to activists in New York and explained why her organization does not distance itself from Hamas or other groups deemed terrorists by the U.S. and Israel. 

“What we see here is an alliance — an alliance of forces that is working together for a different future for the region that is free of U.S. imperialism and it is free of Zionist colonialism,” Kates told viewers. “And these forces of resistance, right now, are in the front lines of defending humanity.” 

Kiswani, the New York-based activist, was featured in a 2020 Samidoun YouTube video in which she said “Zionists” had flooded her law school administration with emails claiming she is antisemitic. School officials cleared her of any wrongdoing. 

Since Oct. 7, Samidoun has co-sponsored or co-organized at least three protests led by Within Our Lifetime and another group called the Palestinian Youth Movement, according to online flyers posted by the two organizations. Samidoun has “compiled a lot of history, things that we use in the movement to talk about Palestinian prisoners, and so we respect and appreciate them for that work,” Kiswani said. 

There are active campaigns in Canada and in the European Union to ban Samidoun and have it classified as a terrorist organization. “I ain’t Jewish or Palestinian; I don’t have a stake in this,” said Leo Housakos, a member of Canada’s Senate, who has been pushing his government to shut down Samidoun and deport its leadership. “I feel strongly about a sense of security.” 

A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment about whether the agency is investigating Samidoun. The FBI also declined to comment. 

Protected speech

Civil rights experts said that in the U.S., unlike countries with stricter hate speech laws, activist groups such as Samidoun can express their views more freely, as long as they are not working directly with designated terrorist groups. 

“Even if you literally were advocating entirely, unambiguously pro-Hamas views in favor of all of their tactics, [it] is protected so long as the speaker is not coordinating with Hamas itself,” said Ahilan Arulanantham, a UCLA law professor who has represented detained immigrants and Muslim Americans in civil rights cases before the Supreme Court three times since 2016. 

Federal officials say fine lines separate protected speech, hate speech and incitement. Federal prosecutors can prosecute speech if it rises to the level of clear threats of violence when stated specifically and if violent actions are being planned. Hate speech alone is not enough to deem a person or an organization a terrorist. 

“Unlike many of our foreign partners, the United States, under the First Amendment, cannot designate organizations based solely on hateful speech,” Vincent Picard, a spokesman for the State Department’s Bureau of Counterterrorism, said by email. “The Secretary of State must determine that it is a foreign organization that engages in terrorist activity that threatens the security of United States nationals.” 

While governments may lack the power to shut down most of these groups, private industry has more leeway, as shown last month when Instagram took down Within Our Lifetime’s accounts. A spokesperson for Meta, which owns Instagram, said the group violated community guidelines, which included the platform’s Dangerous Organizations & Individuals policy. 

“Meta is choosing to implement this during a genocide,” Kiswani said. 

 

 

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators at a protest organized by Within Our Lifetime and co-sponsored by Samidoun at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York on Jan. 1.Selcuk Acar / Anadolu via Getty Images

 

 

Deplatforming campaign 

Former federal officials say that as presidential administrations have prioritized fighting the Islamic State terrorist group and domestic extremism in recent years, law enforcement agencies have made investigating ties between U.S groups and Hamas or the PFLP less of a priority. 

Frustrated with the lack of U.S. government action, pro-Israeli legal activists launched a campaign in 2021 targeting Samidoun’s fundraising efforts in North America. They focused on the Alliance for Global Justice, an Arizona-based nonprofit group whose stated mission is to foster “social change and economic justice,” which served as Samidoun’s fiscal sponsor. 

Zachor Legal Institute, an organization based in Montana, led the deplatforming effort, writing letters to Visa, Mastercard, PayPal and other financial companies. 

“We say: ‘There’s a terror-connected group that uses this system, and as a result, you’re facilitating donations to terror groups. You should look into that because this is a violation of federal law,’” said Marc Greendorfer, the founder of Zachor. “I’m only in this to defend the rights of Jews to be a people.” 

Samidoun’s online donation page says it is now disabled and directs users to send written checks to the Alliance for Global Justice, which did not respond to requests for comment. 

With Samidoun unable to collect donations online, pro-Israel groups have turned their attention toward WESPAC, the New York nonprofit group that serves as a fiscal sponsor for several protest groups and processes their online donations, including the national branch of Students for Justice in Palestine. 

Charles Asher Small, the founder and director of the Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy, a nonprofit research group, names WESPAC in a forthcoming report. In an interview, he said the problem goes beyond antisemitism. “The ideology that these people are fighting for is anti-democratic,” he said.  

The pro-Israel institute previously shared research with the Trump administration to investigate funding streams for pro-Palestinian organizations. 

But Mike German, a former FBI agent who has accused the bureau of conducting excessive surveillance of Muslim Americans, said counterterrorism experts’ practice of linking anti-Israel protesters to terrorist groups is fraught. 

“They’re targeting people who are two or three degrees away from people who are committing harm,” said German, now a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. “It’s a way of demonizing protest movements and political ideologies that challenge government power.” 

1993 World Trade Center bombing

U.S. law enforcement agencies began looking in earnest for financial links between foreign organizations and U.S.-based Muslim charities after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. The FBI spent the next 10 years investigating the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, at the time one of the country’s largest Muslim charities.  

Several Palestinian American men were charged with money laundering and providing material support to Hamas. A federal judge sentenced five men — the “Holy Land Five” — to prison sentences of 15 to 65 years. 

In 2018, the Trump administration began reviewing the activities of protest groups that Jewish leaders and federal officials had flagged as antisemitic and anti-Israel. It was preparing to open investigations into some groups’ ties to foreign funds and leadership, but officials said the inquiry was cut short by the Covid-19 pandemic. 

“We were working on developing programs and responses to try and expose it and get to the root of it,” said Reed Rubinstein, a Trump administration official who led antisemitism investigations at both the Justice and Education departments. 

In 2019, the Israeli government said in a report that Hamas and PFLP operatives were working in humanitarian organizations in the Middle East, Europe and Canada focused on Palestinian rights, with the ideological goal of “elimination of the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.” 

A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment on whether the agency was conducting any ongoing investigations. 

Free speech protections often inhibit federal prosecutors from criminalizing speech, but they have greater latitude to investigate whether a person provided “material support” to a group designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. government, like Hamas. Material support includes giving financial assistance, expert advice, training and weapons. 

Legal advocates have argued in court that the federal material support law is too vague. They say it unfairly targets humanitarian agencies and activists who are aiding families in Gaza, the occupied West Bank and other parts of the Middle East. 

Muslim American organizations, meanwhile, say they are being flooded with reports of anti-Muslim bias since Israel invaded Gaza. The Council on American-Islamic Relations reported a rise in incidents of anti-Muslim bigotry at school, at work, after attending street protests or in criticizing Israel online. 

“It’s a trope at this point that if you’re a Muslim who speaks up for Palestinian human rights and freedom, you’re going to be accused of being a terrorist,” said Edward Ahmed Mitchell, CAIR’s national deputy director.

[956 Worldwide 34410]

22 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Well, I have little desire for cloak room folly, but here is an example from NBC News:

Who's behind the pro-Palestinian protests that are disrupting Biden's campaign events and blocking city streets?

NBC News examined links to an organization banned by Germany and Israel but found no direct financial ties to any U.S.-designated terrorist groups.

Protest organizers say their aims are simple but far-reaching — to push lawmakers to stop giving money and weapons to Israel, while getting Democratic voters to boycott President Joe Biden as retribution for his support of it.Justine Goode / NBC News; Getty Images

 

 

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•  
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• Create your free profile or log in to save this article

March 20, 2024, 5:00 AM CDT

By Simone Weichselbaum and Alexandra Chaidez

In cities across the country, highways have been blocked, trains have been delayed and sections of college campuses have been shut down by hundreds of thousands of people who have taken to the streets.  

They’re protesting Israel’s invasion of Gaza in response to Hamas’ Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Members of the movement say the size of the demonstrations is a response to the killing of more than 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. 

 

Pro-Israel groups, meanwhile, are pushing Congress and federal law enforcement agencies to investigate whether any of the protests across the U.S. are getting money from abroad and whether their leaders have ties to Hamas or other terrorist groups. 

To understand which groups are organizing the protests and any potential ties to foreign groups, NBC News reviewed the tax filings and social media posts of the organizations behind the highest-profile demonstrations, as well as court filings, government reports and legislative hearings related to the pro-Palestinian movement in America. 

Despite accusations by some pro-Israel groups and former U.S. and Israeli government officials of potential ties between protest organizers and terrorist groups, public records show no clear evidence financially linking Hamas or any foreign governments to the American protests.  

What did emerge is a vast network that includes left-leaning, billion-dollar American philanthropies and collaboration with at least one foreign organization that Germany and Israel have banned for allegedly working with or supporting Hamas and another terrorist group. 

The movement overall appears grassroots, with localized efforts that coordinate primarily through social media using apps such as Telegram, X, WhatsApp and Instagram. 

Nerdeen Kiswani is the founder and chair of Within Our Lifetime.Simone Weichselbaum / NBC News

Nerdeen Kiswani is emblematic of the movement. Kiswani, 29, a law school graduate, founded the group Within Our Lifetime nearly a decade ago to build a community for young people who want to raise awareness for the Palestinian cause. With little more than social media posts, Kiswani, a Palestinian American activist raised in Brooklyn, New York, can attract thousands of New Yorkers to clog shopping districts, transit hubs and even roads to the airport — and bring them to a standstill. 

“I just support the Palestinian people as a whole, and I believe that we have the right to resist,” Kiswani said. “If they’re mad at it, they can talk to Biden, they can talk to the secretary of state, they can talk to the elected officials who keep funding wars abroad, who keep funding death and killing in our name, with our tax dollars.” 

‘Feel the heat’

Protest organizers say their aims are simple but far-reaching: to push lawmakers to stop giving money and weapons to Israel while getting Democratic voters to boycott President Joe Biden as political retribution for his support of Israel as large numbers of Gazans are being killed.  

The goal of the demonstrations is to make “the Democrats feel the heat, not only from the mass protests, but also from the people who are being stopped in the streets, who aren’t making it to work on time,” said Hatem Abudayyeh, the national chair of the U.S. Palestinian Community Network, which has organized street protests in Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit.  

And it is having an effect. Biden has taken extraordinary steps to avoid protesters at public and campaign events, NBC News recently reported. During the Democratic primary in Michigan, which has a large Muslim population, more than 101,000 voters marked “uncommitted” on their ballots. In 2020, just under 1,300 voters checked the box.  

“At least with Trump, we know what we’re dealing with,” Kiswani said. “We know that he’s been anti-Palestinian. With Biden, you know, he literally can kill 30,000 of us and still pretend that he’s a friend.” 

Following the money 

Several of the pro-Palestinian organizations, including Within Our Lifetime and the U.S. Palestinian Community Network, do not have public tax filings. However, they and several other groups use a progressive nonprofit group based in New York called Westchester People’s Action Coalition Foundation, or WESPAC, as their fiscal sponsor to collect and process online donations. U.S. tax law allows nonprofit groups with 501(c)(3) status to collect money on behalf of smaller groups. 

Howard Horowitz, WESPAC’s board chair, declined to share its financial filings for the organizations it sponsors. 

“Isn’t the big story the ongoing genocide in Gaza?” Horowitz said in an email. 

Other groups have backing from major U.S. foundations. IfNotNow, an organization with the stated aim to “end U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system,” was awarded $100,000 during the past five years by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, a decades-old philanthropy based in New York. The fund has awarded close to a half-million dollars over the same period to Jewish Voice for Peace, another Palestinian rights organization. 

“I think protests and civil disobedience, as long as it’s nonviolent, is an effective tool, and that’s why we support some groups that use that tool,” said Stephen Heintz, the president and CEO of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.  

The Open Society Foundation, established by George Soros, has also given grants to Jewish Voice for Peace. A spokesperson said the foundation’s goal is to help establish lasting peace in the region

 

 

In a march organized by Within Our Lifetime and co-sponsored by Samidoun, according to Within Our Lifetime, pro-Palestinian protesters rallied in midtown Manhattan on Dec. 25. Selcuk Acar / Anadolu via Getty Images

 

 

Jewish Voice for Peace has organized hundreds of protests across the country with tens of thousands of participants since the invasion of Gaza. While its events are generally peaceful, it has come under criticism for some actions, including inviting convicted terrorist Rasmea Odeh to speak at a national event in 2017.  

Odeh’s supporters say Israel tortured her into a false confession. Odeh was a founding member of the Chicago chapter of the U.S. Palestinian Community Network before U.S. officials deported her in 2017 for failing to disclose a terrorism conviction in Israel. 

Stefanie Fox, Jewish Voice for Peace’s executive director, said people must think critically about the U.S. government’s history of applying the word “terrorism” to specific communities. “International law recognizes the rights of occupied peoples to resist their oppression, including through the use of force within clear parameters that always protect civilians in conflict,” Fox said.  

In 2020, Zoom, Facebook and YouTube shut down an online event featuring Leila Khaled, a Palestinian activist who spent time in prison for hijacking planes. In a statement condemning censorship, Jewish Voice for Peace called her a “Palestinian resistance icon” and slammed the tech companies. 

According to congressional testimony, public statements and interviews, current and former government officials in the U.S., Europe, Israel and Canada claim that some leaders of the pro-Palestinian protest movement promote rhetoric from Hamas or the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, or PFLP. They also say some groups work with members of the PFLP. The State Department has designated both groups as terrorist organizations.  

On and after the Oct. 7 attacks, when about 1,200 people were killed and more than 240 were taken hostage, the PFLP’s military wing, the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, claimed on Telegram that it had participated in the carnage. It urged other Palestinians to join it. Federal investigators in Washington, D.C., said they do not dispute the PFLP’s claim that it participated in the attack. 

Jonathan Schanzer, a former Treasury Department official, called for more aggressive investigation of ties between pro-Palestinian groups in the U.S. and terrorist organizations in testimony to Congress in November. 

“Individuals who previously worked for Hamas charities are now a driving force behind the large pro-Hamas demonstrations taking place in major cities across America,” said Schanzer, who is now senior vice president at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.  

Schanzer cited Hatem Bazian, a longtime lecturer at the University of California Berkeley, as an example. Bazian founded the national branch of Students for Justice in Palestine to focus on campus-based activism, and he later launched American Muslims for Palestine. Both groups advocate for the U.S. government to end its support of Israel. 

Hatem Bazian, chairman of American Muslims for Palestine, speaks at a news conference to launch an advertisement campaign criticizing Israel and U.S. support for it in New York City on March 26, 2013.Mike Seger / Reuters

Schanzer argued that Bazian and his organizations are part of a network that is “providing training, talking points, materials and financial support to students intimidating and threatening Jewish and pro-Israel students on college campuses.” 

The attorney general’s office of Virginia, where American Muslims for Palestine is headquartered, also opened an investigation of the group after an Israeli American family accused it of potentially using funds to benefit terrorist organizations. 

The attorney general’s office said it could not comment on an open investigation. Bazian said the allegations from Capitol Hill and Virginia are false. 

“You are guilty because you passed by someone who was eating a shawarma, who is connected to somebody who lives in Gaza, who knows somebody who might be a member of Hamas,” Bazian said. “That’s basically where we are at.” 

Samidoun

Officials concerned about hidden links to terrorist groups point to a little-known international organization called Samidoun, the Arabic word for “steadfast.”  

On its website, the Canadian-registered nonprofit group describes itself as “an international network of organizers and activists working to build solidarity with Palestinian prisoners in their struggle for freedom.” 

But the Israeli government and several think tanks in Europe and Israel say Samidoun’s leadership is composed of current and former members of the PFLP. Germany banned Samidoun a few weeks after the Oct. 7 attacks, arguing that Samidoun members had praised and supported Hamas during street protests.  

The Israeli government declared Samidoun a terrorist organization in 2021. “They support terrorism, and they want to gain public opinion — support — for terrorism,” said Yossi Kuperwasser, the former chief of the research division in the Israel Defense Forces’ military intelligence wing.  

The group’s international coordinator, Charlotte Kates, originally from New Jersey, is listed as one of three directors on Samidoun’s nonprofit registration in Canada. She did not respond to multiple requests for comment. Other members of Samidoun’s leadership in Canada and in Europe also did not respond. 

But Samidoun does not hide its activities. In a Feb. 27 YouTube video in which Kates is featured along with Dr. Basem Naim, a senior Hamas official, Kates described the Oct. 7 attacks as a “heroic operation.” In another February webinar on YouTube, she spoke to activists in New York and explained why her organization does not distance itself from Hamas or other groups deemed terrorists by the U.S. and Israel. 

“What we see here is an alliance — an alliance of forces that is working together for a different future for the region that is free of U.S. imperialism and it is free of Zionist colonialism,” Kates told viewers. “And these forces of resistance, right now, are in the front lines of defending humanity.” 

Kiswani, the New York-based activist, was featured in a 2020 Samidoun YouTube video in which she said “Zionists” had flooded her law school administration with emails claiming she is antisemitic. School officials cleared her of any wrongdoing. 

Since Oct. 7, Samidoun has co-sponsored or co-organized at least three protests led by Within Our Lifetime and another group called the Palestinian Youth Movement, according to online flyers posted by the two organizations. Samidoun has “compiled a lot of history, things that we use in the movement to talk about Palestinian prisoners, and so we respect and appreciate them for that work,” Kiswani said. 

There are active campaigns in Canada and in the European Union to ban Samidoun and have it classified as a terrorist organization. “I ain’t Jewish or Palestinian; I don’t have a stake in this,” said Leo Housakos, a member of Canada’s Senate, who has been pushing his government to shut down Samidoun and deport its leadership. “I feel strongly about a sense of security.” 

A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment about whether the agency is investigating Samidoun. The FBI also declined to comment. 

Protected speech

Civil rights experts said that in the U.S., unlike countries with stricter hate speech laws, activist groups such as Samidoun can express their views more freely, as long as they are not working directly with designated terrorist groups. 

“Even if you literally were advocating entirely, unambiguously pro-Hamas views in favor of all of their tactics, [it] is protected so long as the speaker is not coordinating with Hamas itself,” said Ahilan Arulanantham, a UCLA law professor who has represented detained immigrants and Muslim Americans in civil rights cases before the Supreme Court three times since 2016. 

Federal officials say fine lines separate protected speech, hate speech and incitement. Federal prosecutors can prosecute speech if it rises to the level of clear threats of violence when stated specifically and if violent actions are being planned. Hate speech alone is not enough to deem a person or an organization a terrorist. 

“Unlike many of our foreign partners, the United States, under the First Amendment, cannot designate organizations based solely on hateful speech,” Vincent Picard, a spokesman for the State Department’s Bureau of Counterterrorism, said by email. “The Secretary of State must determine that it is a foreign organization that engages in terrorist activity that threatens the security of United States nationals.” 

While governments may lack the power to shut down most of these groups, private industry has more leeway, as shown last month when Instagram took down Within Our Lifetime’s accounts. A spokesperson for Meta, which owns Instagram, said the group violated community guidelines, which included the platform’s Dangerous Organizations & Individuals policy. 

“Meta is choosing to implement this during a genocide,” Kiswani said. 

 

 

Pro-Palestinian demonstrators at a protest organized by Within Our Lifetime and co-sponsored by Samidoun at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York on Jan. 1.Selcuk Acar / Anadolu via Getty Images

 

 

Deplatforming campaign 

Former federal officials say that as presidential administrations have prioritized fighting the Islamic State terrorist group and domestic extremism in recent years, law enforcement agencies have made investigating ties between U.S groups and Hamas or the PFLP less of a priority. 

Frustrated with the lack of U.S. government action, pro-Israeli legal activists launched a campaign in 2021 targeting Samidoun’s fundraising efforts in North America. They focused on the Alliance for Global Justice, an Arizona-based nonprofit group whose stated mission is to foster “social change and economic justice,” which served as Samidoun’s fiscal sponsor. 

Zachor Legal Institute, an organization based in Montana, led the deplatforming effort, writing letters to Visa, Mastercard, PayPal and other financial companies. 

“We say: ‘There’s a terror-connected group that uses this system, and as a result, you’re facilitating donations to terror groups. You should look into that because this is a violation of federal law,’” said Marc Greendorfer, the founder of Zachor. “I’m only in this to defend the rights of Jews to be a people.” 

Samidoun’s online donation page says it is now disabled and directs users to send written checks to the Alliance for Global Justice, which did not respond to requests for comment. 

With Samidoun unable to collect donations online, pro-Israel groups have turned their attention toward WESPAC, the New York nonprofit group that serves as a fiscal sponsor for several protest groups and processes their online donations, including the national branch of Students for Justice in Palestine. 

Charles Asher Small, the founder and director of the Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy, a nonprofit research group, names WESPAC in a forthcoming report. In an interview, he said the problem goes beyond antisemitism. “The ideology that these people are fighting for is anti-democratic,” he said.  

The pro-Israel institute previously shared research with the Trump administration to investigate funding streams for pro-Palestinian organizations. 

But Mike German, a former FBI agent who has accused the bureau of conducting excessive surveillance of Muslim Americans, said counterterrorism experts’ practice of linking anti-Israel protesters to terrorist groups is fraught. 

“They’re targeting people who are two or three degrees away from people who are committing harm,” said German, now a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. “It’s a way of demonizing protest movements and political ideologies that challenge government power.” 

1993 World Trade Center bombing

U.S. law enforcement agencies began looking in earnest for financial links between foreign organizations and U.S.-based Muslim charities after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. The FBI spent the next 10 years investigating the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, at the time one of the country’s largest Muslim charities.  

Several Palestinian American men were charged with money laundering and providing material support to Hamas. A federal judge sentenced five men — the “Holy Land Five” — to prison sentences of 15 to 65 years. 

In 2018, the Trump administration began reviewing the activities of protest groups that Jewish leaders and federal officials had flagged as antisemitic and anti-Israel. It was preparing to open investigations into some groups’ ties to foreign funds and leadership, but officials said the inquiry was cut short by the Covid-19 pandemic. 

“We were working on developing programs and responses to try and expose it and get to the root of it,” said Reed Rubinstein, a Trump administration official who led antisemitism investigations at both the Justice and Education departments. 

In 2019, the Israeli government said in a report that Hamas and PFLP operatives were working in humanitarian organizations in the Middle East, Europe and Canada focused on Palestinian rights, with the ideological goal of “elimination of the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.” 

A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment on whether the agency was conducting any ongoing investigations. 

Free speech protections often inhibit federal prosecutors from criminalizing speech, but they have greater latitude to investigate whether a person provided “material support” to a group designated as a terrorist organization by the U.S. government, like Hamas. Material support includes giving financial assistance, expert advice, training and weapons. 

Legal advocates have argued in court that the federal material support law is too vague. They say it unfairly targets humanitarian agencies and activists who are aiding families in Gaza, the occupied West Bank and other parts of the Middle East. 

Muslim American organizations, meanwhile, say they are being flooded with reports of anti-Muslim bias since Israel invaded Gaza. The Council on American-Islamic Relations reported a rise in incidents of anti-Muslim bigotry at school, at work, after attending street protests or in criticizing Israel online. 

“It’s a trope at this point that if you’re a Muslim who speaks up for Palestinian human rights and freedom, you’re going to be accused of being a terrorist,” said Edward Ahmed Mitchell, CAIR’s national deputy director.

I find it remarkable that although the pro-Palestine movement has many eloquent and impassioned advocates to choose from with pristine backgrounds and unquestioned devotion to peace and tolerance, so many of these groups insist on inviting convicted terrorists and hijackers to be headliners. 
 

That’s not tongue in cheek, I’m really mystified because I don’t think most grassroots Palestine supporters are clamoring to hear from them.  Clearly there is a strong impetus within the leadership of some groups that they need to normalize those people and that this goal is more valuable than the media blowback from putting a plane hijacker on the stage with you. 

[Bevo 13516]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I find it remarkable that although the pro-Palestine movement has many eloquent and impassioned advocates to choose from with pristine backgrounds and unquestioned devotion to peace and tolerance, so many of these groups insist on inviting convicted terrorists and hijackers to be headliners. 
 

That’s not tongue in cheek, I’m really mystified because I don’t think most grassroots Palestine supporters are clamoring to hear from them.  Clearly there is a strong impetus within the leadership of some groups that they need to normalize those people and that this goal is more valuable than the media blowback from putting a plane hijacker on the stage with you. 

 

There isn't blowback - at best maybe it slows momentum.

I'm mystified at the Jewish supporters - like the head of ANSWER - who is a Marxist but was a Dem politician in Connecticut and founded a respected Jewish organization at his synagogue. I think his goal is anarchy in the US.

And the Jewish organization mentioned in the article - that doesn't believe in a Jewish state for biblical reasons.

I get being against Palestinian oppression. I get Marxist ideas. I get the biblical discussion.

But, I don't get how you can rally with an organization and with people who at very best don't give a fuck about you or your family. I know it gets back to the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But to participate in rallies and perhaps fund rallies that openly chant against you is mystifying.

 

 

[MissingInAction 24807]

I dated a jew for a couple of years. I yelled at her dumbass brother a lot.

Edited May 3 by MissingInAction
Dumbass

[Bevo 13516]

2 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Edited just now by MissingInAction
Dumbass

Might have served you better to keep the misspelling.

[bolverk 29394]

Another violent attack on a Muslim UT student last month, in addition to the stabbing, happened in February. 

CAIR-Austin calls for APD to investigate alleged attack of Muslim UT student as hate crime

The Council on American-Islamic Relations is calling on the Austin Police Department to investigate an alleged attack against a Muslim University of Texas student as a hate crime.

Austin police confirmed to the American-Statesman on Tuesday that it became aware of a bias-motivated incident near UT's campus through its online reporting system, and the Police Department said officers are investigating the reported incident and will forward any relevant information to the department's Hate Crime Committee.

"If a crime has been committed and the Hate Crime Committee determined that they believe the crime was committed due to bias or prejudice, then they will inform the FBI of the incident," the department said. "If charges are pressed or an arrest is made, the Hate Crime Committee also informs the prosecutor’s office."

The alleged attack happened Friday night when a student dressed in a kurta shalwar — traditional attire associated with the South Asian Muslim community — was approached by three men as the student walked back to campus from a local mosque, according to CAIR-Austin, the local branch of the largest national Muslim rights and advocacy organization.

CAIR-Austin in a news conference Tuesday said the men began yelling in mock Arabic and blocked the student and his friend's path. The aggression then escalated to violence, when the men allegedly punched the student, and one assailant told them he had a weapon.

"No human being should feel unsafe wearing their traditional clothes in public," said Shaimaa Zayan, the operations manager of CAIR-Austin. "And when this happens in Austin, a city that cherishes cultural diversity, it's even more traumatizing."

Zayan said the student suffered a busted lip and cuts on his jaw, but the emotional wounds to the student and the Muslim community are much deeper.

"The mental hurts will be bigger and longer term than the physical hurt of this incident," Zayan said. "Not only on the student, the victim student, but also for all the Muslims and Arabs and all the diverse students who go to Austin. It just creates an unsafe environment for everyone."

cont'd:

Spoiler

A spokesperson for Mayor Kirk Watson's office told the Statesman that the case will be discussed at the Hate Crimes Task Force's monthly meeting Thursday and potentially at its next one, too, as officials investigate the incident. The Police Department did not provide the police report to the Statesman by Tuesday afternoon.

CAIR-Austin representatives at the news conference said the Friday attack brought up memories of the February stabbing of Zacharia Doar, a 23-year-old Palestinian American coming back from a Sunday protest and evening prayer, which the Austin police Hate Crime Review Committee determined was a hate crime. The case is currently awaiting trial.

At UT, students were also harassed at a Palestine Solidarity Committee hearing in October by men claiming to be Israeli Defense Forces soldiers. Both Jewish and Muslim students have said they've felt unsafe showing their identity on campus because of tensions related to the Israel-Hamas war.

According to its 2024 civil rights report released April 2, CAIR in 2023 recorded the highest number of anti-Muslim complaints in its 30-year history. In 2023, the organization received more than 8,000 complaints, nearly half of which were reported in the last three months of the year.

The Austin for Palestine Coalition emailed city and university officials, including both Watson and UT President Jay Hartzell, on Monday demanding that they attend its news conference Tuesday to publicly condemn the violence against Muslim Americans.

Neither attended, but in a statement to the Statesman on Tuesday morning, UT said it is aware of the allegations and has contacted Muslim organizations and community members as well as the individuals involved to "offer support and any necessary services."

"We are aware from outside sources of an allegation of a hate-filled verbal conflict escalating to physical contact with two of our students. Austin Police Department is investigating whether a crime occurred," the university said in its statement. "UT remains committed to the safety and well-being of every member of our University community and has no tolerance for violence or other hateful actions against any of our community members, including those in our Muslim, Palestinian, and Arab communities."

Austin city spokesperson Alicia Dean said in an emailed statement Tuesday that the city has no tolerance for hate, and she pointed to an initiative the city launched in July called "We All Belong," a resource hub where people can find support and file nonemergency incident and police reports.

"Acts of hate are unacceptable in our City," Dean said. "We started the Citywide We All Belong anti-hate initiative as part of our commitment to keep Austin a safe and welcoming place."

Hanna Barakat, a speaker from the Austin for Palestine Coalition, said Senate Bill 17, a state law banning diversity, equity and inclusion offices at public universities and colleges, and Gov. Greg Abbott's executive order calling for colleges to fight antisemitism by revising free speech policies and enforcing them against pro-Palestinian groups and students, "fuel anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia putting these populations at risk while openly favoring other groups."

"Every student and every person in Texas deserves equal protection and safety, and it is the duty of local and state government to ensure it," Barakat said.

Abbott's office did not respond to a Statesman request for comment Tuesday.

Barakat said the alleged attack was particularly scary because it was during Ramadan, a holy month celebrated this year from March 10 to sundown Tuesday night. She added that she feels her "community's voice is ignored."

"I identify because I'm Lebanese American, and I'm proud of that. But it also puts me as a target, and I fear that position," she said.

"I'm angered that we are responding to yet another incident of violence and discrimination toward a member of the AAPI community," said Akeela Kongdara, a UT alum and the youth engagement and volunteer senior associate for Asian Texans for Justice, at the news conference, referring to the Asian American and Pacific islander community. "It is more evident than ever that our city and leaders are failing to ensure the safety of all individuals and are failing on their commitment to keep our students safe."

Jake Holtzman, founder of Austin's chapter of the Students for a Democratic Society and a 2023 UT alumnus, said he hopes the university engages with student leaders in discussion about steps UT can take to better ensure Muslim students' safety.

"The mental health toll is huge on all of these students, because the reality is that there are many students who maybe would have come out to this today, but they didn't feel safe doing so," Holtzman said. "People should have every right to walk around campus wearing what they would like to wear, saying what they truly want to say and not feel at risk of being harmed or attacked."

 

Edited May 4 by bolverk

[bolverk 29394]

Disruption of a pro-Palestine meeting at UT by non-university affiliated gentlemen, one of whom says he's going back to Israel to kill Arabs. Scroll to the end for the video.

 

[Brisketexan 104537]

Disruption of a pro-Palestine meeting at UT by non-university affiliated gentlemen, one of whom says he's going back to Israel to kill Arabs. Scroll to the end for the video.
 

“OUTSIDE AGITATORS!”

That’s what we’re supposed to say, right? These pro-Israel, anti Palestinian protests have to be driven from our campus with brutal violence because OUTSIDE AGITATORS! I’m just keeping the standard.

[Mikey4 2476]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

“OUTSIDE AGITATORS!”

That’s what we’re supposed to say, right? These pro-Israel, anti Palestinian protests have to be driven from our campus with brutal violence because OUTSIDE AGITATORS! I’m just keeping the standard.

well, you are right to do so. We should not tolerate hate and lawlessness on campus by anyone, and certainly not by outside forces who are bringing their political agendas onto our campus.

[InkaUtexas 25486]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:48 PM, MissingInAction said:

I dated a jew for a couple of years. I yelled at her dumbass brother a lot.

It is pronounced Dumas. Like the town in the panhandle right?

[jimmyjazz 45538]

2 hours ago, Mikey4 said:

well, you are right to do so. We should not tolerate hate and lawlessness on campus by anyone, and certainly not by outside forces who are bringing their political agendas onto our campus.

Well, except for that detail that the public can legally gather on campus.

[Frank Drebin 5611]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, except for that detail that the public can legally gather on campus.

They can.  And that’s a good thing.  They just have to follow rules.  If they don’t, they will be removed and arrested.  They can challenge the rules in court if they want to.  

[Mikey4 2476]

9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, except for that detail that the public can legally gather on campus.

You missed the part where I specifically limited my comment to people exhibiting hate or lawlessness. Unless you are OK with the public assembling on campus to engage in illegal conduct or to say hateful things to or about minority groups.

[jimmyjazz 45538]

1 minute ago, Mikey4 said:

You missed the part where I specifically limited my comment to people exhibiting hate or lawlessness. Unless you are OK with the public assembling on campus to engage in illegal conduct or to say hateful things to or about minority groups.

The "outside group" delineation is what bothers me.  Hate speech and lawlessness should not be tolerated on campus, period.  The affiliated status of those protesting (hateful or not) matters not one fucking whit, but here we go, it's code for "furriners".

[Mikey4 2476]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

The "outside group" delineation is what bothers me.  Hate speech and lawlessness should not be tolerated on campus, period.  The affiliated status of those protesting (hateful or not) matters not one fucking whit, but here we go, it's code for "furriners".

Legally, you are right. But practically, I am much more skeptical of someone who has no apparent reason to be on campus in the first place. if you’re not a stakeholder of the university -- not a student, not a professor, not an employee, not an alum, not there to attend some official function, etc. -- then you may be less likely to care about following university policy. But yes, I agree, hate, and lawlessness have no place on campus, regardless of the source.

[Frank Drebin 5611]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The "outside group" delineation is what bothers me.  Hate speech and lawlessness should not be tolerated on campus, period.  The affiliated status of those protesting (hateful or not) matters not one fucking whit, but here we go, it's code for "furriners".

Hate speech should be tolerated on a public university campus.  We shouldn’t be regulating content we don’t like outside of actual threats of imminent violence so long as the speaker is following the time, place and manner restrictions.  
 

Hate speech isn’t illegal and never should be.  Let the idiots spew their hate. And shun them accordingly.  

[Captainant 27403]

2 hours ago, Mikey4 said:

well, you are right to do so. We should not tolerate hate and lawlessness on campus by anyone, and certainly not by outside forces who are bringing their political agendas onto our campus.

The campus free speech bill was literally passed in response to ATM students refusing to allow a neonazi speak at their campus. It was designed to hold the door open for hateful speech and a political agenda onto campuses. 

[jimmyjazz 45538]

11 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Hate speech isn’t illegal and never should be.  Let the idiots spew their hate. And shun them accordingly.  

That's not exactly true.  Targeted threats of violence can be prosecuted.  This is what I'm referring to.

[Mikey4 2476]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The campus free speech bill was literally passed in response to ATM students refusing to allow a neonazi speak at their campus. It was designed to hold the door open for hateful speech and a political agenda onto campuses. 

Great. I oppose Nazis and do not want them on campus.

[Frank Drebin 5611]

15 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's not exactly true.  Targeted threats of violence can be prosecuted.  This is what I'm referring to.

What most people think of hate speech is a hell of a lot broader than targeted threats of violence.  I mean I said in my post you partially quoted that much.  
 

Hate speech is legal.  Threatening imminent violence isn’t.  

General hate speech has to be legal.  Because it’s the only type of speech that really needs first amendment protection.  I consider from the river to the sea or death to Israel hate speech.  Doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t have the absolute right to chant that on a college campus.  Even generally chanting death to Jews is protected.
 

 In contrast, “I’m going to kill that Jew over there in the blue hat” or “Let’s go bomb that Jewish fraternity house” would be illegal.  

[jimmyjazz 45538]

Nobody is arguing with you, Sack.  My pushback was on the concept that "outsiders" shouldn't be promulgating ugly viewpoints on campus, "because".

[Sawbonz 27392]

26 minutes ago, Mikey4 said:

Great. I oppose Nazis and do not want them on campus.

The bill that was passed allows them on campus though. Along with people holding signs saying “women are property” and yell at students walking by going to class, calling female students whores and sluts and male students who do don’t look sufficiently masculine to them homophobic slurs

[Mikey4 2476]

16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

The bill that was passed allows them on campus though. Along with people holding signs saying “women are property” and yell at students walking by going to class, calling female students whores and sluts and male students who do don’t look sufficiently masculine to them homophobic slurs

Thank you for telling me that.

[Dbeasy 14961]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

It is pronounced Dumas. Like the town in the panhandle right?

Joe King Carrasco!

[BrickHorn 18185]

1 hour ago, Mikey4 said:

Great. I oppose Nazis and do not want them on campus.

[Mikey4 2476]

7 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What a bizarre thing to post. Is that supposed to be funny? Because it sounds like you’re accusing me of sympathizing with Nazis, which is an outrageously offensive, personal insult and is not humorous in the least. 

I haven’t called you, or anyone else on here, an anti-semite for sympathizing with these protesters, and I would appreciate the reciprocal courtesy of people not accusing me of hideous things based on my disagreement with the protesters. Those accusations are not based in reality and are not constructive.

 

[BrickHorn 18185]

2 hours ago, Mikey4 said:

What a bizarre thing to post. Is that supposed to be funny? Because it sounds like you’re accusing me of sympathizing with Nazis, which is an outrageously offensive, personal insult and is not humorous in the least. 

I haven’t called you, or anyone else on here, an anti-semite for sympathizing with these protesters, and I would appreciate the reciprocal courtesy of people not accusing me of hideous things based on my disagreement with the protesters. Those accusations are not based in reality and are not constructive.

 

You’re right. I confused you with some of the fascist dipshits who post here. The implication was unwarranted. My apologies. 

[Blotto 23424]

Rode through campus around 12:15 or so, and checked out the protest for about 20 minutes, but it was pretty uneventful. There were a fuckton of cops and DPS, but they seemed content to just draw their OT pay. Headed south on San Jac and passed maybe 100 people with Israeli flags headed towards the capital, so I swung by there and again, not much going on. I continued on with my ride and by the time I swung back north through campus at around 2, the whole damn thing was over. I'm not sure why the coppers decided to bust up the last couple of protests, but not this one. I guess nobody wanted to fuck up their cinco de mayo plans for later. 

[TKthunder2 4980]

14 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Rode through campus around 12:15 or so, and checked out the protest for about 20 minutes, but it was pretty uneventful. There were a fuckton of cops and DPS, but they seemed content to just draw their OT pay. Headed south on San Jac and passed maybe 100 people with Israeli flags headed towards the capital, so I swung by there and again, not much going on. I continued on with my ride and by the time I swung back north through campus at around 2, the whole damn thing was over. I'm not sure why the coppers decided to bust up the last couple of protests, but not this one. I guess nobody wanted to fuck up their cinco de mayo plans for later. 

Any sex tents?

[Brisketexan 104537]

39 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Any sex tents?

Pro tip: every tent is a sex tent if you've got game.

Confession: I am not welcome back at the circus.

[DixonHur 11154]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Confession: I am not welcome back at the circus.

Well, duh, you're not supposed to have sex with the animals.

[Bevo 13516]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:47 PM, Frank Drebin said:

What most people think of hate speech is a hell of a lot broader than targeted threats of violence.  I mean I said in my post you partially quoted that much.  
 

Hate speech is legal.  Threatening imminent violence isn’t.  

General hate speech has to be legal.  Because it’s the only type of speech that really needs first amendment protection.  I consider from the river to the sea or death to Israel hate speech.  Doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t have the absolute right to chant that on a college campus.  Even generally chanting death to Jews is protected.
 

 In contrast, “I’m going to kill that Jew over there in the blue hat” or “Let’s go bomb that Jewish fraternity house” would be illegal.  

Are we talking just with regard to government prosecution or getting kicked out of school? Because monkey man just got kicked out (rightfully) but I haven't heard of many from the river to the sea people being kicked out (rightfully). Actually, I'm not sure about monkey man if it was just the frat or the frat and the school.

Edited May 6 by Bevo

[Frank Drebin 5611]

4 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Are we talking just with regard to government prosecution or getting kicked out of school? Because monkey man just got kicked out (rightfully) but I haven't heard of many from the river to the sea people being kicked out (rightfully). Actually, I'm not sure about monkey man if it was just the frat or the frat and the school.

I don' think either him or the death to Israel types should be kicked out of a public school for protected speech.

[Bevo 13516]

8 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I don' think either him or the death to Israel types should be kicked out of a public school for protected speech.

Do you think all participants should have to be identifiable? I know when going through airport security, they make everyone reveal their faces and it doesn't seem like too much of a burden.

[Frank Drebin 5611]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Do you think all participants should have to be identifiable? I know when going through airport security, they make everyone reveal their faces and it doesn't seem like too much of a burden.

Yes.  No masks, disguises or face coverings when protesting is a very good policy.  

[jimmyjazz 45538]

15 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Yes.  No masks, disguises or face coverings when protesting is a very good policy.  

No.  That's a terrible take.  If I can wear a mask anywhere in public, I can wear a mask while protesting.  Fucking hell.

[CHIEF 5067]

13 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

No.  That's a terrible take.  If I can wear a mask anywhere in public, I can wear a mask while protesting.  Fucking hell.

Do you wear one to the bank, convenience store, or liquor store presently?

CHIEF

Edited May 6 by CHIEF
autocorrect

[Mikey4 2476]

The First Amendment doesn't say that the right to free speech requires the speaker to reveal his or her identity, and requiring people to reveal their identity when protesting could chill protected speech. As long as the speaker is obeying the law and campus policy, I don’t see the problem with masks.

If it crosses over into illegal conduct, then the speaker can and should be arrested and identified at that point. The threat of arrest should be real enough to serve as an incentive to keep the protest within the boundaries of the law. You do that, you can remain anonymous. You cross the line into violating the law or campus policy, and your shit goes on blast.

[bolverk 29394]

53 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Are we talking just with regard to government prosecution or getting kicked out of school? Because monkey man just got kicked out (rightfully) but I haven't heard of many from the river to the sea people being kicked out (rightfully). Actually, I'm not sure about monkey man if it was just the frat or the frat and the school.

As far as I'm aware, he was only kicked out of his frat, not the school. I don't think a university (government entity) has the right to kick him out based on the content of his speech alone.

Edit: There might be some loophole for racial harassment since he targeted his speech toward a specific individual. I don't know, however, if his speech crossed that threshold because I don't know where that line lies.

Edited May 6 by bolverk

[jimmyjazz 45538]

3 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Do you wear one to the bank, convenience store, or liquor store presently?

CHIEF

The correct question is, am I legally allowed to?

I know this is difficult for you, CHIEF

[Frank Drebin 5611]

4 minutes ago, Mikey4 said:

The First Amendment doesn't say that the right to free speech requires the speaker to reveal his or her identity, and requiring people to reveal their identity when protesting could chill protected speech. As long as the speaker is obeying the law and campus policy, I don’t see the problem with masks.

If it crosses over into illegal conduct, then the speaker can and should be arrested and identified at that point. The threat of arrest should be real enough to serve as an incentive to keep the protest within the boundaries of the law. You do that, you can remain anonymous. You cross the line into violating the law or campus policy, and your shit goes on blast.

Mask bans are very likely constitutional.  I think they are wise. People protesting behave better when you can see their faces.  Also aids in identifying them.  And then convicting them in front of a jury should they destroy property or commit violence.  Courts have long held bans on disguises are constitutional in KKK cases.  
 

https://casetext.com/case/church-of-the-american-knights-of-the-ku-klux-klan-v-kerik