Jay Hartzell is not out standard

[High Plains Drifter 10,970]

30 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Everyone says this, until it’s everything they’ve worked for in their lives at stake. It’s very easy to do the right thing from our recliners, much harder when it’s your life and career on the line. Again, this is how fascism works. For fucks sake, what did the milgram studies teach us?

 

and I say this completely thinking I’d do the right thing too in that situation. And yet, here I sit in Houston, not leaving Texas, because my kid has a good thing going and because my career isn’t portable, or even replicable, anywhere else. Just hoping things hold together till the kiddo goes to college and we can get out. While risking his future and ours by staying. 
 

For everyone who has talked of leaving and hasn’t yet, why haven’t you? Doing the right thing is always easy, right?

 

Everyone says that until they see what the next thing is…but on the upside, something even more obviously monstrous that follows will make it easier to cut ties and wash hands entirely. 

 

I stand by my post. Assuming Hartzell is not aligned with abbott, then yeah Hartzell should have told abbott to go fuck himself. If that costs him his job, well then I guess he loses his job. I'm sure with a little effort he would be able to find gainful employment somewhere that he isn't beholden to wannabe fascists. 

Honestly, he probably should have resigned when he was forced to fire the DEI faculty. If for no other reason, he would not have been involved in this "next thing". 

 

 

 

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,825]

4 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I know you do. And, yes, the law can be complex, but this instance is not. The student organization provided the University a heads up of the proposed protest (which strictly speaking isn't necessary under University rules for open areas). The plan was to "occupy" the South Lawn. They passed out fliers telling folks to bring sandwiches and snacks. After occupying the lawn for the day they were going to march to the capitol. The University, and particularly Hartzell, freaked out about what was happening elsewhere (and I point out that a lot of the problems at other campuses were also administration caused) and gave a blanket no. Technically, under Texas law and University regulations, it had no authority to do that. More importantly, a blanket no to speech isn't a "reasonable, place, and manner" restriction since it amounts to an outright prohibition of the freedom to assemble. Hartzell, apparently understanding the student organization was moving forward despite his blanket no, decided the only course was to call in riot police to bust heads before the event even started. There was no violence, except by DPS. There were no threats, except by DPS. There was no destruction, except by DPS. And of the 50+ people arrested that day, including a cameraman for the news exercising a core civic right and service, all were later released and charges dropped. This was a naked trampling of the First Amendment. This was a naked abuse of authority. And Hartzell wasn't a mere observer or participant, but was rather the architect, as confirmed by his own letter and his own texts. Fuck him. Ultimately, he was afraid of a picnic. Maybe he invited the wolves to dinner not appreciating what would happen. But if that is the case, he is too incompetent and stupid to run the University anyway.   

had lunch with a friend today who works on the admin side of things at UT. she confirmed that Hartzell knew ahead of time about it and told them no, then called the cops when they showed up anyway. she didn't go as far as offering an opinion when I suggested he needed to step down. I don't think she agrees with what happened, but I also think she is not in a position to make noise about it. which is in and of itself speech suppression. 

15 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

We gotta figure out a way to move UT out of Texas. 

we did - we built Austin around it

[SydneyCarton 47,809]

8 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

 

we did - we built Austin around it

Clearly that wasn't a long term solution. 

[BrickHorn 18,176]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

For everyone who has talked of leaving and hasn’t yet, why haven’t you? Doing the right thing is always easy, right?

How many of us have been ordered to have riot police arrest protesting students?

Edited April 26 by BrickHorn

[C-Man 26,991]

31 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

had lunch with a friend today who works on the admin side of things at UT. she confirmed that Hartzell knew ahead of time about it and told them no, then called the cops when they showed up anyway. she didn't go as far as offering an opinion when I suggested he needed to step down. I don't think she agrees with what happened, but I also think she is not in a position to make noise about it. which is in and of itself speech suppression.

Yeah, that ain't a good look.

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

I know that politics are a tangled web in this state, but being scared of Abbott is a really bad look, if true.  Sure, Abbott could lean on his buddies on the BOR, but at some point growing a functional spine (Hartzell, not Abbott) might be the right approach.  Dude is not hurting for money.

[DixonHur 11,074]

I'd like to know what Mike Shaw thinks about all this...

[SydneyCarton 47,809]

34 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

How many of us have been ordered to have riot police arrest protesting students?

While a fair point, my guess would be Hartzell was told there would be DPS guys on campus and that was it. What the cops were told to do likely didn’t come from Hartzell in the chain of command. 

[BrickHorn 18,176]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

While a fair point, my guess would be Hartzell was told there would be DPS guys on campus and that was it. What the cops were told to do likely didn’t come from Hartzell in the chain of command. 

You don’t have to guess. Just read his letter and texts. 

Edited April 26 by BrickHorn

[MissingInAction 24,765]

Why to give up hope:

An entire generation is being raised to see fascism as normal. 

[Pancho 44,358]

 

not a good look 

[Js1 85,056]

Just now, Pancho said:

 

not a good look 

Yikes

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

Uh, that had better not be true.

[immamac 42,492]

This is a lot simpler than you are all making it. It has everything to do with personal integrity and nothing to do with anything else. 

Hartzell cannot be trusted anymore with situations like this, he's the wrong person. He handled the DEI thing extremely poorly and now this. He isn't suited for the role. People who argue that the role is placating the BoR and whatnot, no it's not that's not the role, it's to protect and promote what's good for UT and it's faculty, staff and students as a premier education and research institution. 

Also he literally called fucking riot police to a peaceful protest on his own campus. I was on campus, it was fucking insane and I didn't even get out to see it until around 5PM. Some of you have no idea and are very much armchairing this shit, I was on campus, it was an embarrassment how ridiculous the response. Some of you legitimately have not looked at the actual footage of what happened. It was literal fascism on the UT campus silencing a message that they didn't want. 

 

[Captainant 27,309]

That's completely fucking outragous and way over the line that UT is going to academically punish students for speech they don't like

[BrickHorn 18,176]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

That's completely fucking outragous and way over the line that UT is going to academically punish students for speech they don't like

At this point, should we change our mascot to The Texas Longknives?

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

1 minute ago, BeardIP said:

It's the weekend now-- all things will settle down and the weekend will pour cold water on all this from a PR perspective, I bet.

Not if the blackball rumor is true.

[MissingInAction 24,765]

If the campus isn't swarmed tomorrow I'll be disappoint.

[troph 24,547]

I’d still like to know more about the decision making dynamics of the two days of assembly to know who and how many need to be hung by their balls but punishing students is only making it worse. It’s total bullshit. 

 

Edited April 26 by troph

[BevoAbyss 2,055]

Lots of good, thoughtful takes here about Hartzell's role. Hartzell has a tough job, but he fucked up big time and it is clear he is full-on MAGA, MAGA-adjacent, or a lackey holding on to his job. 

What happened at UT is clearly fascism in action, with an entire generation living in normalized fascism, a malignancy spreading throughout culture. 

Sydney Carton wisely mentioned the "Milgram Studies" and is correct: Almost nothing has been learned from the famed studies. Give people the monopoly power of violence over other people, and they will deploy that violence, ruthlessly. Social media only amplifies the Milgram insights and desire for violence.

As we saw on the UT Campus: the police, DPS, law enforcement, and military are likely filled with Milgram-MAGA fascists -- ready, able, and more than willing to impose the GQP-MAGA regime.

 

 

Edited April 26 by BevoAbyss

[SydneyCarton 47,809]

55 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You don’t have to guess. Just read his letter and texts. 

 

36 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

not a good look 

Yeah. If true there went any semblance of me being remotely willing to consider Hartzell as anything other than at fault. 

[immamac 42,492]

3 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Lots of good, thoughtful takes here about Hartzell's role. Hartzell has a tough job, but he fucked up big time and it is clear he is full-on MAGA, MAGA-adjacent, or a lackey holding on to his job. 

What happened at UT is clearly fascism in action, with an entire generation living in normalized fascism, a malignancy spreading throughout culture. 

Sydney Carton wisely mentioned the "Milgram Studies" and is correct: Almost nothing has been learned from the famed studies. Give people the monopoly power of violence over other people, and they will deploy that violence, ruthlessly. Social media only amplifies the Milgram insights and desire for violence.

As we saw on the UT Campus: the police, DPS, law enforcement, and military are likely filled with Milgram-MAGA fascists -- ready, able, and more than willing to impose the GQP-MAGA regime.

 

 

this is a great post. 

[Zepol87 9,163]

33 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

It's the weekend now-- all things will settle down and the weekend will pour cold water on all this from a PR perspective, I bet.

Yep it will die down in the media and they fuck over the students without anyone calling them out 

[wildcat09 29,187]

37 minutes ago, immamac said:

This is a lot simpler than you are all making it. It has everything to do with personal integrity and nothing to do with anything else. 

Hartzell cannot be trusted anymore with situations like this, he's the wrong person. He handled the DEI thing extremely poorly and now this. He isn't suited for the role. People who argue that the role is placating the BoR and whatnot, no it's not that's not the role, it's to protect and promote what's good for UT and it's faculty, staff and students as a premier education and research institution. 

Also he literally called fucking riot police to a peaceful protest on his own campus. I was on campus, it was fucking insane and I didn't even get out to see it until around 5PM. Some of you have no idea and are very much armchairing this shit, I was on campus, it was an embarrassment how ridiculous the response. Some of you legitimately have not looked at the actual footage of what happened. It was literal fascism on the UT campus silencing a message that they didn't want. 

 

Esto. I'm sympathetic to "the next person will be worse" theory, but it's not really true. One of the first rules of dealing with fascists is you don't try to appease them; you don't surrender to them preemptively because you think it will buy you time or room to stand firm on other issues. Fascists succeed much more easily when power is given to them freely, because they actually suck at seizing and wielding it. If Hartzell is replaced by some dipshit obvious fascist, they'll actually be less effective long-run than they would be with a more "moderate" president who is constantly attempting to appease them.  

[royiv 9,131]

1 minute ago, Zepol87 said:

Yep it will die down in the media and they fuck over the students without anyone calling them out 

Yeah, typical Friday afternoon news dump on the campus bans.

[Brisketexan 104,463]

8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Esto. I'm sympathetic to "the next person will be worse" theory, but it's not really true. One of the first rules of dealing with fascists is you don't try to appease them; you don't surrender to them preemptively because you think it will buy you time or room to stand firm on other issues. Fascists succeed much more easily when power is given to them freely, because they actually suck at seizing and wielding it. If Hartzell is replaced by some dipshit obvious fascist, they'll actually be less effective long-run than they would be with a more "moderate" president who is constantly attempting to appease them.  

This.  Fascists are bullies.

And since the beginning of time, there is one, and only one strategy for defeating bullies: stand up to them and punch them square in the fucking nose.

I don't think that Hartzell is a fascist.  I think he's worse.  I think he's a pathetic little bitch with no spine who happily sacrificed the very people whose interest he is supposed to protect at the demand of fascists.  He could have been the hero who told them "no.  Not here.  Not on my watch."  Instead, he'll just go into the dustbin of history with all of the other spineless cowards who have enabled fascism along the way.  In the interest of protecting his own ass, he destroyed it.  Dumbass coward.

[tx 3 putt 76,158]

2 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

We gotta figure out a way to move UT out of Texas. 

Puerto Rico 

[Js1 85,056]

Protest using your first amendment rights = banned from campus…

Less punishment for sexual assaulting someone on campus 

[Brisketexan 104,463]

Just now, Js1 said:

Protest using your first amendment rights = banned from campus…

Only if you take the wrong position.  Remember, Governor Abbott made it crystal clear: this was not about any actions actually taken by protestors, but rather was motivated by THE CONTENT OF THEIR SPEECH.  You know, the literal ONE THING that cannot be the basis for repressing speech.

If this group had been protesting on an issue the Governor agreed with.....there wouldn't have been a single DPS trooper on the ground.

[Js1 85,056]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Only if you take the wrong position.  Remember, Governor Abbott made it crystal clear: this was not about any actions actually taken by protestors, but rather was motivated by THE CONTENT OF THEIR SPEECH.  You know, the literal ONE THING that cannot be the basis for repressing speech.

If this group had been protesting on an issue the Governor agreed with.....there wouldn't have been a single DPS trooper on the ground.

The ACLU is probably salivating at the lawsuits if the university goes through with banning all those students from campus 

[C-Man 26,991]

Just now, Js1 said:

The ACLU is probably salivating at the lawsuits if the university goes through with banning all those students from campus 

I was just wondering that exact same thing.

[Surly Bevo 24,692]

10 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I was just wondering that exact same thing.

Some lawyer is billing as he/she pours through this

https://catalog.utexas.edu/general-information/appendices/appendix-c/student-conduct-and-academic-integrity/

Seems like though if this story was true and a quick scan of this, there is some due process in the form of a hearing that SHOULD have taken place....which seems fast.  

Note I said "should"

Edited April 26 by Surly Bevo

[Pancho 44,358]

Corrected:

 

 

[bolverk 29,359]

Images posted below so you don't have to click through

 

Look at the very last bullet. Is that even legal, given the 2019 law that was passed?

 

[Goredho 17,301]

7 hours ago, immamac said:

You missed the point of the comparison. It's lack of accountability for the actual job instead of personal enrichment or benefit. He chose to personally benefit instead of doing his fucking job and will be rewarded for it by the board who are deranged Maga bootlicker fucks. 

Keep talking like that and you're gonna have your Aggy ring confiscated

[A-Tex Devil 2,444]

I am not hopeful.  I do not know how Maga or Maga adjacent Hartzell is, but he is definitely a coward.  
 

This is so fucking strategic by hot wheels and their ilk.  And we need to remember that most of the $$ funding the university probably was fine or ambivalent about what DPS did on campus.  And Abbott is well aware.  
 

Faculty is going to revolt.  Many will leave.  The fascists will welcome that and Joe fucking Lonsadale might not have to open his new fucked up university because UT will evolve into it.  

[BevoAbyss 2,055]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

If this group had been protesting on an issue the Governor agreed with.....there wouldn't have been a single DPS trooper on the ground.

Seeing fascist stormtroopers marauding through leftist-liberal UT is a GQP, MAGA, and Aggy wet dream ... full-on come to life. 

And we have a President who willfully supported and enabled this. Wow, just wow. 

The more I think about it, the more I realize Hartzell has gotta go. And take a risk with the next person.

Time's up for appeasement ... across the board.

 

[mchookem 16,094]

gah. this makes me so fucking angry! pointless, impotent rage 😡

[chainsaw 9,831]

Someone fly a banner. He's got to go.

[tx 3 putt 76,158]

8 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Seeing fascist stormtroopers marauding through leftist-liberal UT is a GQP, MAGA, and Aggy wet dream ... full-on come to life. 

And we have a President who willfully supported and enabled this. Wow, just wow. 

The more I think about it, the more I realize Hartzell has gotta go. And take a risk with the next person.

Time's up for appeasement ... across the board.

 

dps was there before the ‘protestors’ 

 

abbott has his eyes on the white house and the money is lined up. Killing off Woke UT Austin into non woke, non dei UT Austin looks very very good to his backers 

[mchookem 16,094]

i guess at least Thetexashammer's five rich friends can donate now 🤬

[DixonHur 11,074]

11 minutes ago, BevoAbyss said:

Seeing fascist stormtroopers marauding through leftist-liberal UT is a GQP, MAGA, and Aggy wet dream ... full-on come to life. 

And we have a President who willfully supported and enabled this. Wow, just wow. 

The more I think about it, the more I realize Hartzell has gotta go. And take a risk with the next person.

Time's up for appeasement ... across the board.

 

Wow, some of you need to dial back the rhetoric a smidge.

To read this thread you'd think the cops came goose stepping through campus busting heads.

They arrested a couple dozen people who were all released within hours. 

I think Hartzel was just worried it would become like Columbia University and didn't want that on campus.  Abbott seizing on the opportunity for political reasons is a different situation entirely.

[Captainant 27,309]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Wow, some of you need to dial back the rhetoric a smidge.

To read this thread you'd think the cops came goose stepping through campus busting heads.

They arrested a couple dozen people who were all released within hours. 

I think Hartzel was just worried it would become like Columbia University and didn't want that on campus.  Abbott seizing on the opportunity for political reasons is a different situation entirely.

Dude that's what fuckin fascism looks like. It's an early stage, but that's fucking IT dude. 

Those students were denied a common public space to hold peaceful protests. Their words were met with violence from the police. 

Why in the fuck are you making excuses for this fucking embarrassment?

[DixonHur 11,074]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Dude that's what fuckin fascism looks like. It's an early stage, but that's fucking IT dude. 

Those students were denied a common public space to hold peaceful protests. Their words were met with violence from the police. 

Why in the fuck are you making excuses for this fucking embarrassment?

The embarrassment is the overreaction on this board to something that has happened dozens of times before without resulting in fascism.

The definition of which, you seem to be misinterpreting about as much as MAGA does socialism. 

[Captainant 27,309]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

The embarrassment is the overreaction on this board to something that has happened dozens of times before without resulting in fascism.

You haven't even watched any of the timestamped videos in the first page of the DT thread that was being compiled as it happened. You have no idea if it's an overreaction or not. 

You're just so up your own ass about being in the middle that you're assuming that you must be the only reasonable person, and completely ignoring the bare facts in front of you. 

[DixonHur 11,074]

31 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You haven't even watched any of the timestamped videos in the first page of the DT thread that was being compiled as it happened. You have no idea if it's an overreaction or not. 

You're just so up your own ass about being in the middle that you're assuming that you must be the only reasonable person, and completely ignoring the bare facts in front of you. 

Oh lord.  

Pretty rich for the guy calling this fascism....please define fascism and let me know if you think it still think it applies here.,

[Dbeasy 14,953]

Dammit where was this group demanding justice when I told my boss he was nothing but a used tire salesman. I really could have used the support. 

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

It wasn't "a couple of dozen" people who were arrested, it was 57.  All charges were dropped.  The entire protest was 100% legal and Hartzell and the goon squad broke it up.  THAT was illegal.  

Erecting a tent on the South Mall isn't illegal.  It isn't even against school rules.  Sleeping there overnight is, but you can't arrest someone for breaking school rules before the infraction happens.

You're on the wrong side of this, @DixonHur.

[DixonHur 11,074]

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

It wasn't "a couple of dozen" people who were arrested, it was 57.  All charges were dropped.  The entire protest was 100% legal and Hartzell and the goon squad broke it up.  THAT was illegal.  

Erecting a tent on the South Mall isn't illegal.  It isn't even against school rules.  Sleeping there overnight is, but you can't arrest someone for breaking school rules before the infraction happens.

You're on the wrong side of this, @DixonHur.

Maybe.  I'm certainly open to the possibility, but it really feels like a lot of ado about nothing.   

But come on...I threw out a couple dozen as a number off the top of my head as filler...almost said a few dozen.  Either way, out of the number of people there that isn't a ton....and as you said all charges were dropped.

Have you never been arrested by a cop trying to make a point?  I've been arrested several times (by several I mean 5-6) on bogus charges...most of which came while I was a student at UT, I get it, I just think it's a big nothing burger.  

Edited April 27 by DixonHur
had to bump the number because I just remembered a couple others.

[jimmyjazz 45,513]

20 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Have you never been arrested by a cop trying to make a point?

I've never been arrested, unless a traffic ticket qualifies.